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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis argument about having paid your loans and so should everybody else
is ridiculous. We are democrats, we aim at advancing towards a more progressive society where you don't forfeit your financial future to get an education.
Forgiving loans and ultimately addressing educational costs is the way to go.
When social security was enacted, it was to address the issue of retired elderly people ending up destitute and homeless.
People could have and some did say back then that they made do without it before so why should we pay for it ?
Luckily for us , it passed. I view student loans forgiveness the same way. I paid mine and I was able to do so. I do not resent that other people in less fortunate situations get their student loans reduced or forgiven. I welcome it .
FalloutShelter
(11,845 posts)That being said, I take issue with your argument.
Getting old is not a choice. Signing a loan agreement is.
drray23
(7,627 posts)in today's society that were once not there. For example child subsidies or tax breaks for families. Does this means we should also give that to people with no kids ? nobody is arguing that. That's the same situation here.
tinrobot
(10,893 posts)We've made college so expensive that most people can't afford it without loans. We've also made college a requirement for most good-paying careers.
So, if you don't take out the loan, you don't get to be an engineer, a manager, a scientist, therapist, accountant, doctor, lawyer, or any number of careers that require a degree.
Instead, you start at the bottom and hope you can get a lucky break into something better.
FalloutShelter
(11,845 posts)You miss my point conflating social security with student loan forgiveness is a poor argument because growing old is not a choice it happens to everyone.
That is my only point
make more solid arguments when the GOP tries to stuff this down our throats.
Turbineguy
(37,313 posts)I'd like the thank the taxpayers for supporting my school and therefore, me graduating with a debt of $1500. Which I paid off right away.
Which amounts to the same thing.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,841 posts)I went to college in 1965, at a very low-cost public university, the University of Arizona in Tucson.
It was possible back then to work a minimum wage job, and if you lived at home, you could pay your tuition and fees from that job. You couldn't pay for dorm or meals, although you might be able to get some kind of work-study job that would do that.
BOSSHOG
(37,043 posts)UA Class of 79. Ill let you guess which UA.
IF the contest is between the Socialism of the Democratic Party and the capitalism of the rich, greedy, selfish, mendacious criminal garbage which comprise the Republican Party, I vote for the former.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Is because states stopped helping universities.
Walleye
(31,002 posts)OK two years in LA city College at $6.50 a semester it was a good school too. And they had pretty cool concerts on the commons. One day Boz Skaggs played. I guess it was after that that Reagan got elected governor
Cozmo
(1,402 posts)There but for by the grace of God, go I
Voltaire2
(12,995 posts)We got the benefits of a society that viewed access to public education, including college, as a benefit to society, not as a privilege to be paid for by each person by whatever resources they could use.
The public university systems of New York, California, and the many land grant universities of the Midwest states all provided free or very affordable access to high quality colleges. The federal government provided wide access to grants that actually correlated to costs, and to subsidized affordable loans.
All of that came to a grinding halt under the disaster of neoliberal privatization, the Reagan/Thatcher rollback of social democractic programs.
Our generation got all the benefits, and turned around and closed the gate on the generations that followed us.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)That, however, is a piss-poor reason to keep the unfairness going. Sort of like leaving the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan: We can't end the occupation, it would make the sacrifice of those who were injured or killed meaningless. So we stay there forever so more troops can be injured or killed.
That's a big pile of nope.
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)My parents could afford the tuition so I didn't need to get a loan - but in those days the tuition, even at that private college, was a tiny fraction of what it is now at the same school. Later I went after an advanced degree on my own dime, and I had to take out a loan. It took me 20 years to pay it off, but even though I had to pay all of my loan (and sometimes it was a bit of a struggle), I do not resent the fact that some student loans are being forgiven now. It's a good thing for everyone. More people will be able to go to college and those who are still in debt for their education will be better able to buy houses, start businesses, and do other things that will benefit the economy.
People shouldn't be dicks about not having gotten something that other people are getting now. If a shitty system is getting fixed, great.
Ray Bruns
(4,092 posts)it was $90 a credit hour. I payed off my loans myself. I have no problem with Biden cancelling these loans because tuition has gotten totally out of control.
MLAA
(17,274 posts)I was able to get student loans to augment my summer jobs and during school dorm counselor jobs. In 1982 I graduated with a whopping $6,000 or $8,000 in loans (memory isnt what it use to be). Got a good paying job and my loan was either 23% or 30% of my first year salary. Today, kids face loans of $80,000 -$100,000 when they graduate and get jobs paying $50,000 (average starting salary for college grad in 2021. So their loan is 1.6 times to twice their annual salary.
So Im all for the loan relief and think college should be free or at least super affordable to all.
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)from a private liberal arts college, the tuition was about $2,400 per year, which is about $19,000 in today's dollars. Tuition at that college is now almost $60K per year. They do offer quite a lot of financial aid in the form of scholarships and grants so hardly anyone will really pay that much, but it will still be a lot more than $19K. College has become so expensive that unless their families are wealthy and/or they qualify for scholarships, students are going to have to get loans. And some schools are downright predatory, recruiting students just because they can get loans, while issuing worthless degrees if the students graduate at all. It's not like it used to be at all.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Response to drray23 (Original post)
elias7 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)$10,000 of their loans will be forgiven, but only for those whose annual income is less than $125,000 per year. Low-income borrowers who went to college on Pell Grants can get up to $20,000 in student loan forgiveness. However, the lift the freeze on federal student debt payments, is being lifted in January. The administration is also proposing a rule to create a repayment plan in which borrowers pay no more than 5% of their monthly income on undergraduate loans. Clearly this is not a free ride. Some people have six-figure loans for, e.g., medical school, and this program won't help them, especially if they are already doctors.
rownesheck
(2,343 posts)Higher education should be free.
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,568 posts)(Actually Social Democracy)
I like it!
spooky3
(34,429 posts)Share in the costs, and how much should each share be?
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)"Public universities in Norway do not charge students tuition fees, regardless of the student's country of origin. This is a unique opportunity to obtain a degree at a quality university at no cost, and one of many reasons why Norway has become an attractive country for foreign students." https://www.uib.no/en/education/109728/norway-offers-tuition-free-quality-education#:~:text=Public%20universities%20in%20Norway%20do,attractive%20country%20for%20foreign%20students.
meadowlander
(4,394 posts)I paid off my last $10K in student loans in a lump sum two years ago because (I admit) I gave up on Biden getting forgiveness through when the spinmasters started talking about how "Biden has already forgiven so much debt" (i.e. suspension of interest during Covid was the "forgiveness" he had actually been talking about during the campaign). If I'd started repayment instead, I would probably about this month be making my last payment on my student loans.
But you know what? So what. I'm glad other people are getting a break. And I got two more years of peace of mind from not having that debt hanging over my head. And fewer people in debt means more people able to buy houses sooner which means the value of my house is probably going to increase by more than $10K anyway. And more job security for me.
More people able to afford their education means more doctors and nurses to take care of me when I'm sick. It means more people might be able to afford to go back to grad school and more engineers and computer scientists and screenplay writers and journalists and people who don't vote like dumbasses which means fewer fascists trying to take away my reproductive rights.
A rising tide lifts all the boats. I don't have to personally benefit from every single positive policy action for it to be worthwhile doing.
Zeitghost
(3,856 posts)The real reason debt forgiveness without tuition/financial aid reform is a horrible idea is that it will lead to even higher tuition prices.
The problem isn't fairness, its economics.
Celerity
(43,280 posts)Part 3. Make the student loan system more manageable for current and future borrowers
Income-based repayment plans have long existed within the U.S. Department of Education. However, the Biden-Harris Administration is proposing a rule to create a new income-driven repayment plan that will substantially reduce future monthly payments for lower- and middle-income borrowers.
The rule would:
Require borrowers to pay no more than 5% of their discretionary income monthly on undergraduate loans. This is down from the 10% available under the most recent income-driven repayment plan.
Raise the amount of income that is considered non-discretionary income and therefore is protected from repayment, guaranteeing that no borrower earning under 225% of the federal poverty levelabout the annual equivalent of a $15 minimum wage for a single borrowerwill have to make a monthly payment.
Forgive loan balances after 10 years of payments, instead of 20 years, for borrowers with loan balances of $12,000 or less.
Cover the borrower's unpaid monthly interest, so that unlike other existing income-driven repayment plans, no borrower's loan balance will grow as long as they make their monthly paymentseven when that monthly payment is $0 because their income is low.
end
So if you have 2000 USD discretionary income a month, the most you will pay is only 100 USD a month!
4000 USD per month in DI, and you only have to pay 200 USD per month!
That is a HUGE deal, a BFD!
If you have 50,000 USD in loans and had Pell Grants, you now have 30K in debt.
If you then pay only 150 USD per month in an income driven plan, (so NO interest accrues NOW, thanks to President Biden),
then, at the end of ten years you owe ZERO, as you paid 18K and the last 12K is wiped clean.
50K became only 18K that was repaid and you did it in only 10 years, so no Alpo omelettes for you when you are 75, as you won't still be banging out student loan debt cheques based off crazy jacked high interest rates making you a perpetual debt slave.
THAT, is a damn solid deal, another BFD!
But none of those address runaway tuition coats that have been far outpacing inflation. Instead of directly subsidizing higher education by lowering or eliminating tuition at public schools, we subsidize the banking industry with federally guaranteed loans, which flood the market with cheap, easy money and drive tuition prices through the roof.
Forgiving loans and reducing payments will lead to more people taking loans, leading to even more profits for the banks and more money in the higher education market and that will lead to even higher tuition prices.
Yes, Biden just handed me and my wife 20K+. But how much more our are kids going to have to pay if this cycle of more loans-higher prices continues? Use public funds to lower tuition at public schools, not funding the banking industry.
spooky3
(34,429 posts)If university A raises its prices but university B does not, and prospective students see them as equally good, they will go to university B.
Zeitghost
(3,856 posts)Universities are already running at capacity and almost all turn away kids, some by the tens of thousand. Flooding the market with cheap, easy to get debt will, and has, led to runaway tuition.
There is very little price competition in higher ed. Prices are largely set by how much FA the target students can qualify for.
spooky3
(34,429 posts)That provides evidence of your claims.
It is a HIGHLY competitive industry. The reasons that the tuition prices at some schools have increased more than you want are complex and varied, and people are still willing and (generally) able to pay them. Otherwise, kids would go to schools charging much lower rates (and there are some). In the US, many international students pay full freight; many domestic students get various forms of aid. And, at many universities, donors have contributed a lot of the money for buildings and financial aid.
Zeitghost
(3,856 posts)n/t
NNadir
(33,512 posts)I personally applaud publicly financed higher education.
Gore1FL
(21,126 posts)This isn't just a boon for those deep in student debt.
Mr.Bill
(24,273 posts)Many of those have qualifiers that make them available to only some people. Are those fair? (of course they are)
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)2 Meow Momma
(6,682 posts)Demobrat
(8,968 posts)However they should not pay usurious interest rates, fees and penalties that put them in a position where their loan amount keeps going up.
If the loan terms had been fair in the first place, we wouldnt need forgiveness now.
former9thward
(31,970 posts)So if there are any usurious rates it is the federal government which is setting them. Banks have been out of the business for at least 10 years now.
spooky3
(34,429 posts)Zeitghost
(3,856 posts)Are unsecured and not guaranteed by the federal government.
Any loan that has no collateral and no guarantee by the government that is made to somebody with little to no income or credit history is going to come with high interest rates. It's the only way a lender will take such a big risk.
We could regulate the rate, but then lenders would not give students unsecured loans.
spooky3
(34,429 posts)Out of the student loan business. They are not.
former9thward
(31,970 posts)Should you?
spooky3
(34,429 posts)former9thward
(31,970 posts)You don't want any goalposts at all.
former9thward
(31,970 posts)If you have to go to a private bank that is a very red flag that you should not be getting a loan.
spooky3
(34,429 posts)Sympthsical
(9,067 posts)The whole system needs reforming.
It's weird how out of sorts some ostensibly liberal people are getting that someone who isn't them is getting a hand.
Is welfare fair under these rules? I mean, I work. I pay taxes. It's not fair that I have to pay my bills and they don't!
Because that's the mindset here.
It's bumper stickerism revealed. Say the words that they're all for helping people as a signal to others of how awesome they are until they think somehow something of theirs is being minimized in some way. Then it's, "Fuck other people. Stay down."
It's all very mask off.
I'm comfortable economically. I support others getting helped when an economic system is determined to screw them despite best efforts.
Because I actually am a liberal. I don't just wear the t-shirt.
Farmer-Rick
(10,151 posts)We've forgotten that colleges use to give out tons more financial aid then they do now. We forgot that Pell Grants use to cover more than one semester of college. We forgot that colleges use to give out and forgive student loans all the time. We forgot that interest rates on student loans use to be very low and deferred for years and years, even the ones from the colleges directly.
We are saddling kids today with mortgage sized loans as they are just starting their careers; with high compounding interest and NO deferments.
I paid back my loans over 10 years and never paid more than $50 a month. It was affordable.
Now a days, it's a scam for servicers and colleges to make huge profits off students. It's just another wealth extraction con for the filthy rich. It wasn't always a scam. It use to be a useful tool for middle class and poor students.
Ocelot II
(115,661 posts)former9thward
(31,970 posts)The federal government has handled student loans since 2010. How would you suggest stopping colleges from raising tuition?
Warpy
(111,237 posts)that refused to allow wages to rise because a bunch of rich guys said that was inflationary. It's not, wages have always been a lagging indicator, meaning the inflation has happened and wages are playing catch up.
Except they were never allowed to catch up and now the minimum wage isn't just below poverty, it's below subsistence.
This is the crime perpetrated against the American working public and their children, and forgiving the most predatory of those loans is a must.
You don't think all those billionaires actually earned that money, do you?
Bear Creek
(883 posts)To if they are going to pay they need to refund those who did pay their loans. Several of the ones I know that paid off their loans were not wealthy and are still barely making it.
AncientOfDays
(162 posts)... these are not really loans - they are Revenue Streams. They are designed NOT to be paid off.
I see more and more of this Revenue Stream stuff every year - used to be you bought something, you owned it, now they want you to only be able to rent your iPhone, your car, etc.
maxrandb
(15,316 posts)"Retrumplicans can't even enjoy a good meal unless they know someone else is starving"
Guess that extends to some DUers too.
spudspud
(511 posts)AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 24, 2022, 11:33 PM - Edit history (3)
its not about progressivism but simply following through on what you signed up for. I know folks with student debt and none of them went to junior/community college unlike those who dont have debt. I get it that corporations and banks get bailed out too but those orgs employ people.
Unfortunately, I am afraid this is not going to be a winning issue for us. Forgive interest, tie repayments to income, offer significant extensions, etc. (some of it is done too), but you never just forgive the principle.
Justice
(7,185 posts)My spouse and I had debt from undergrad and grad school. Prevented us from buying a house for 10 years.
We made sure our child did not have debt. Made lots of sacrifices to make this happen.
I dont wish school debt on anyone.
I want college students who choose teaching and nursing and social work and public service. I want lawyers and doctors who work in areas of poverty or as public defenders.
As was said by another on DU, I dont need to benefit from every program in order to feel good about it. I advocate for caps on insulin and prescription drugs even though I dont need any - why should student debt relief be any different?
Pluvious
(4,308 posts)ecstatic
(32,679 posts)of some kind, whether a PPP loan or some other giveaway. If not, then just hold on. It will come eventually. And I say this as someone who will likely not benefit from student loan forgiveness unless Biden clears my 1600 balance asap. I just checked my loan account and nothing has changed lol.