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Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:43 PM

This argument about having paid your loans and so should everybody else

is ridiculous. We are democrats, we aim at advancing towards a more progressive society where you don't forfeit your financial future to get an education.

Forgiving loans and ultimately addressing educational costs is the way to go.

When social security was enacted, it was to address the issue of retired elderly people ending up destitute and homeless.

People could have and some did say back then that they made do without it before so why should we pay for it ?

Luckily for us , it passed. I view student loans forgiveness the same way. I paid mine and I was able to do so. I do not resent that other people in less fortunate situations get their student loans reduced or forgiven. I welcome it .



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Reply This argument about having paid your loans and so should everybody else (Original post)
drray23 Aug 2022 OP
FalloutShelter Aug 2022 #1
drray23 Aug 2022 #3
tinrobot Aug 2022 #21
FalloutShelter Aug 2022 #24
Turbineguy Aug 2022 #2
PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2022 #5
BOSSHOG Aug 2022 #17
treestar Aug 2022 #19
Walleye Aug 2022 #40
Cozmo Aug 2022 #44
Voltaire2 Aug 2022 #60
gratuitous Aug 2022 #4
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #6
Ray Bruns Aug 2022 #18
MLAA Aug 2022 #34
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #38
SheltieLover Aug 2022 #30
elias7 Aug 2022 #7
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #9
rownesheck Aug 2022 #8
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #10
Fiendish Thingy Aug 2022 #14
spooky3 Aug 2022 #36
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #56
meadowlander Aug 2022 #11
Zeitghost Aug 2022 #12
Celerity Aug 2022 #27
Zeitghost Aug 2022 #35
spooky3 Aug 2022 #41
Zeitghost Aug 2022 #45
spooky3 Aug 2022 #52
Zeitghost Aug 2022 #57
NNadir Aug 2022 #13
Gore1FL Aug 2022 #15
Mr.Bill Aug 2022 #16
NullTuples Aug 2022 #20
2 Meow Momma Aug 2022 #22
Demobrat Aug 2022 #23
former9thward Aug 2022 #33
spooky3 Aug 2022 #43
Zeitghost Aug 2022 #46
spooky3 Aug 2022 #47
former9thward Aug 2022 #51
spooky3 Aug 2022 #53
former9thward Aug 2022 #55
former9thward Aug 2022 #48
spooky3 Aug 2022 #54
Sympthsical Aug 2022 #25
Farmer-Rick Aug 2022 #26
Ocelot II Aug 2022 #39
former9thward Aug 2022 #50
Warpy Aug 2022 #28
Bear Creek Aug 2022 #29
AncientOfDays Aug 2022 #31
maxrandb Aug 2022 #32
spudspud Aug 2022 #49
AlexSFCA Aug 2022 #37
Justice Aug 2022 #58
Pluvious Aug 2022 #42
ecstatic Aug 2022 #59

Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:49 PM

1. First let me say this student loan forgiveness is a big wonderful idea.

That being said, I take issue with your argument.
Getting old is not a choice. Signing a loan agreement is.

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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:52 PM

3. again there are many things we take for granted

in today's society that were once not there. For example child subsidies or tax breaks for families. Does this means we should also give that to people with no kids ? nobody is arguing that. That's the same situation here.

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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:52 PM

21. Not so simple. That 'choice' often means giving up a career and opportunity.

We've made college so expensive that most people can't afford it without loans. We've also made college a requirement for most good-paying careers.

So, if you don't take out the loan, you don't get to be an engineer, a manager, a scientist, therapist, accountant, doctor, lawyer, or any number of careers that require a degree.

Instead, you start at the bottom and hope you can get a lucky break into something better.

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Response to tinrobot (Reply #21)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:05 PM

24. I agree

You miss my point conflating social security with student loan forgiveness is a poor argument because growing old is not a choice it happens to everyone.
That is my only point… make more solid arguments when the GOP tries to stuff this down our throats.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:49 PM

2. For those of us who went to college in the 1970's

I'd like the thank the taxpayers for supporting my school and therefore, me graduating with a debt of $1500. Which I paid off right away.

Which amounts to the same thing.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:58 PM

5. Bingo.

I went to college in 1965, at a very low-cost public university, the University of Arizona in Tucson.

It was possible back then to work a minimum wage job, and if you lived at home, you could pay your tuition and fees from that job. You couldn't pay for dorm or meals, although you might be able to get some kind of work-study job that would do that.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:38 PM

17. Here, Here. I second that emotion

UA Class of 79. I’ll let you guess which UA.

IF the contest is between the Socialism of the Democratic Party and the capitalism of the rich, greedy, selfish, mendacious criminal garbage which comprise the Republican Party, I vote for the former.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:47 PM

19. Exactly the increase in costs

Is because states stopped helping universities.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:34 PM

40. I lived in California in the 70s. Education was king back in

OK two years in LA city College at $6.50 a semester it was a good school too. And they had pretty cool concerts on the commons. One day Boz Skaggs played. I guess it was after that that Reagan got elected governor

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:41 PM

44. Thanks, well said

There but for by the grace of God, go I

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 25, 2022, 07:36 AM

60. This.

We got the benefits of a society that viewed access to public education, including college, as a benefit to society, not as a privilege to be paid for by each person by whatever resources they could use.

The public university systems of New York, California, and the many ‘land grant’ universities of the Midwest states all provided free or very affordable access to high quality colleges. The federal government provided wide access to grants that actually correlated to costs, and to subsidized affordable loans.

All of that came to a grinding halt under the disaster of neoliberal privatization, the Reagan/Thatcher rollback of social democractic programs.

Our generation got all the benefits, and turned around and closed the gate on the generations that followed us.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:56 PM

4. If an unfair system stops being unfair, somebody's going to take it in the shorts

That, however, is a piss-poor reason to keep the unfairness going. Sort of like leaving the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan: We can't end the occupation, it would make the sacrifice of those who were injured or killed meaningless. So we stay there forever so more troops can be injured or killed.

That's a big pile of nope.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:03 PM

6. I went to college in the late '60s.

My parents could afford the tuition so I didn't need to get a loan - but in those days the tuition, even at that private college, was a tiny fraction of what it is now at the same school. Later I went after an advanced degree on my own dime, and I had to take out a loan. It took me 20 years to pay it off, but even though I had to pay all of my loan (and sometimes it was a bit of a struggle), I do not resent the fact that some student loans are being forgiven now. It's a good thing for everyone. More people will be able to go to college and those who are still in debt for their education will be better able to buy houses, start businesses, and do other things that will benefit the economy.

People shouldn't be dicks about not having gotten something that other people are getting now. If a shitty system is getting fixed, great.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:46 PM

18. Exactly. I graduated in 1995. When I started, tuition was $54 a credit hour. when I finished

it was $90 a credit hour. I payed off my loans myself. I have no problem with Biden cancelling these loans because tuition has gotten totally out of control.

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Response to Ray Bruns (Reply #18)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:29 PM

34. Same here.

I was able to get student loans to augment my summer jobs and during school dorm counselor jobs. In 1982 I graduated with a whopping $6,000 or $8,000 in loans (memory isn’t what it use to be). Got a good paying job and my loan was either 23% or 30% of my first year salary. Today, kids face loans of $80,000 -$100,000 when they graduate and get jobs paying $50,000 (average starting salary for college grad in 2021. So their loan is 1.6 times to twice their annual salary.

So I’m all for the loan relief and think college should be free or at least super affordable to all.

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Response to Ray Bruns (Reply #18)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:33 PM

38. When I graduated in 1969

from a private liberal arts college, the tuition was about $2,400 per year, which is about $19,000 in today's dollars. Tuition at that college is now almost $60K per year. They do offer quite a lot of financial aid in the form of scholarships and grants so hardly anyone will really pay that much, but it will still be a lot more than $19K. College has become so expensive that unless their families are wealthy and/or they qualify for scholarships, students are going to have to get loans. And some schools are downright predatory, recruiting students just because they can get loans, while issuing worthless degrees if the students graduate at all. It's not like it used to be at all.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:17 PM

30. Absolutely!

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Response to drray23 (Original post)


Response to elias7 (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:17 PM

9. Everybody does not get a "free ride."

$10,000 of their loans will be forgiven, but only for those whose annual income is less than $125,000 per year. Low-income borrowers who went to college on Pell Grants can get up to $20,000 in student loan forgiveness. However, the lift the freeze on federal student debt payments, is being lifted in January. The administration is also proposing a rule to create a repayment plan in which borrowers pay no more than 5% of their monthly income on undergraduate loans. Clearly this is not a free ride. Some people have six-figure loans for, e.g., medical school, and this program won't help them, especially if they are already doctors.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:11 PM

8. Student loans shouldn't exist.

Higher education should be free.

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Response to rownesheck (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:17 PM

10. In some countries it is, or nearly so.

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Response to rownesheck (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:32 PM

14. SOCIALISM!!!

(Actually Social Democracy)

I like it!

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Response to rownesheck (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:32 PM

36. Someone has to pay for it. The question is who should

Share in the costs, and how much should each share be?

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Response to rownesheck (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 10:07 PM

56. Check out Norway: College students, even foreign ones, pay no tuition at all.

"Public universities in Norway do not charge students tuition fees, regardless of the student's country of origin. This is a unique opportunity to obtain a degree at a quality university at no cost, and one of many reasons why Norway has become an attractive country for foreign students." https://www.uib.no/en/education/109728/norway-offers-tuition-free-quality-education#:~:text=Public%20universities%20in%20Norway%20do,attractive%20country%20for%20foreign%20students.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:20 PM

11. If anyone should be aggrieved it's me.

I paid off my last $10K in student loans in a lump sum two years ago because (I admit) I gave up on Biden getting forgiveness through when the spinmasters started talking about how "Biden has already forgiven so much debt" (i.e. suspension of interest during Covid was the "forgiveness" he had actually been talking about during the campaign). If I'd started repayment instead, I would probably about this month be making my last payment on my student loans.

But you know what? So what. I'm glad other people are getting a break. And I got two more years of peace of mind from not having that debt hanging over my head. And fewer people in debt means more people able to buy houses sooner which means the value of my house is probably going to increase by more than $10K anyway. And more job security for me.

More people able to afford their education means more doctors and nurses to take care of me when I'm sick. It means more people might be able to afford to go back to grad school and more engineers and computer scientists and screenplay writers and journalists and people who don't vote like dumbasses which means fewer fascists trying to take away my reproductive rights.

A rising tide lifts all the boats. I don't have to personally benefit from every single positive policy action for it to be worthwhile doing.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:23 PM

12. It is certainly a faulty arguement

The real reason debt forgiveness without tuition/financial aid reform is a horrible idea is that it will lead to even higher tuition prices.

The problem isn't fairness, its economics.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:11 PM

27. there was extensive financial aid reform taken yesterday by Biden

https://studentaid.gov/debt-relief-announcement/

Part 3. Make the student loan system more manageable for current and future borrowers

Income-based repayment plans have long existed within the U.S. Department of Education. However, the Biden-Harris Administration is proposing a rule to create a new income-driven repayment plan that will substantially reduce future monthly payments for lower- and middle-income borrowers.

The rule would:

Require borrowers to pay no more than 5% of their discretionary income monthly on undergraduate loans. This is down from the 10% available under the most recent income-driven repayment plan.

Raise the amount of income that is considered non-discretionary income and therefore is protected from repayment, guaranteeing that no borrower earning under 225% of the federal poverty level—about the annual equivalent of a $15 minimum wage for a single borrower—will have to make a monthly payment.

Forgive loan balances after 10 years of payments, instead of 20 years, for borrowers with loan balances of $12,000 or less.

Cover the borrower's unpaid monthly interest, so that unlike other existing income-driven repayment plans, no borrower's loan balance will grow as long as they make their monthly payments—even when that monthly payment is $0 because their income is low.


end


So if you have 2000 USD discretionary income a month, the most you will pay is only 100 USD a month!

4000 USD per month in DI, and you only have to pay 200 USD per month!

That is a HUGE deal, a BFD!


If you have 50,000 USD in loans and had Pell Grants, you now have 30K in debt.

If you then pay only 150 USD per month in an income driven plan, (so NO interest accrues NOW, thanks to President Biden),

then, at the end of ten years you owe ZERO, as you paid 18K and the last 12K is wiped clean.

50K became only 18K that was repaid and you did it in only 10 years, so no Alpo omelettes for you when you are 75, as you won't still be banging out student loan debt cheques based off crazy jacked high interest rates making you a perpetual debt slave.

THAT, is a damn solid deal, another BFD!





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Response to Celerity (Reply #27)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:31 PM

35. Yes

But none of those address runaway tuition coats that have been far outpacing inflation. Instead of directly subsidizing higher education by lowering or eliminating tuition at public schools, we subsidize the banking industry with federally guaranteed loans, which flood the market with cheap, easy money and drive tuition prices through the roof.

Forgiving loans and reducing payments will lead to more people taking loans, leading to even more profits for the banks and more money in the higher education market and that will lead to even higher tuition prices.

Yes, Biden just handed me and my wife 20K+. But how much more our are kids going to have to pay if this cycle of more loans-higher prices continues? Use public funds to lower tuition at public schools, not funding the banking industry.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:35 PM

41. You don't know that. Higher Ed is a competitive business.

If university A raises its prices but university B does not, and prospective students see them as equally good, they will go to university B.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #41)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:42 PM

45. It's econ 101

Universities are already running at capacity and almost all turn away kids, some by the tens of thousand. Flooding the market with cheap, easy to get debt will, and has, led to runaway tuition.

There is very little price competition in higher ed. Prices are largely set by how much FA the target students can qualify for.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:56 PM

52. Please link to a study published in a top refereed journal

That provides evidence of your claims.

It is a HIGHLY competitive industry. The reasons that the tuition prices at some schools have increased more than you want are complex and varied, and people are still willing and (generally) able to pay them. Otherwise, kids would go to schools charging much lower rates (and there are some). In the US, many international students pay “full freight”; many domestic students get various forms of aid. And, at many universities, donors have contributed a lot of the money for buildings and financial aid.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #52)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 10:08 PM

57. Do you have an Econlit account?

n/t

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:29 PM

13. I am glad to see money directed toward young people. We certainly left them with a screwed world.

I personally applaud publicly financed higher education.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:33 PM

15. It's good for the economy, and hence good for everyone.

This isn't just a boon for those deep in student debt.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:34 PM

16. How do those people feel about scholarships?

Many of those have qualifiers that make them available to only some people. Are those fair? (of course they are)

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:48 PM

20. It is always better to give tax money to each other than to corporations & their investors.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:58 PM

22. Anyone that uses that argument just doesn't get the bigger picture. nt

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:01 PM

23. People should pay back what they borrow.

However they should not pay usurious interest rates, fees and penalties that put them in a position where their loan amount keeps going up.

If the loan terms had been fair in the first place, we wouldn’t need forgiveness now.

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Response to Demobrat (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:27 PM

33. The federal government took over student loans in 2010.

So if there are any usurious rates it is the federal government which is setting them. Banks have been out of the business for at least 10 years now.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #43)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:47 PM

46. Private loans (which are not covered by the new policies)

Are unsecured and not guaranteed by the federal government.

Any loan that has no collateral and no guarantee by the government that is made to somebody with little to no income or credit history is going to come with high interest rates. It's the only way a lender will take such a big risk.

We could regulate the rate, but then lenders would not give students unsecured loans.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #46)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:48 PM

47. I was responding to a poster who claimed that banks were

Out of the student loan business. They are not.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #47)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:55 PM

51. You can get loans from Mafia loan sharks too?

Should you?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #51)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:56 PM

53. Moving the goal posts again? Have a nice night. Nt

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #53)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:59 PM

55. You have not addressed the central question.

You don't want any goalposts at all.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #43)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:50 PM

48. Why would anyone do that?

If you have to go to a private bank that is a very red flag that you should not be getting a loan.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #48)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:57 PM

54. That is a different question entirely. Nt

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:06 PM

25. I paid mine. I support forgiveness and relief

The whole system needs reforming.

It's weird how out of sorts some ostensibly liberal people are getting that someone who isn't them is getting a hand.

Is welfare fair under these rules? I mean, I work. I pay taxes. It's not fair that I have to pay my bills and they don't!

Because that's the mindset here.

It's bumper stickerism revealed. Say the words that they're all for helping people as a signal to others of how awesome they are until they think somehow something of theirs is being minimized in some way. Then it's, "Fuck other people. Stay down."

It's all very mask off.

I'm comfortable economically. I support others getting helped when an economic system is determined to screw them despite best efforts.

Because I actually am a liberal. I don't just wear the t-shirt.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:08 PM

26. We forgot how much tuition has increased

We've forgotten that colleges use to give out tons more financial aid then they do now. We forgot that Pell Grants use to cover more than one semester of college. We forgot that colleges use to give out and forgive student loans all the time. We forgot that interest rates on student loans use to be very low and deferred for years and years, even the ones from the colleges directly.

We are saddling kids today with mortgage sized loans as they are just starting their careers; with high compounding interest and NO deferments.

I paid back my loans over 10 years and never paid more than $50 a month. It was affordable.

Now a days, it's a scam for servicers and colleges to make huge profits off students. It's just another wealth extraction con for the filthy rich. It wasn't always a scam. It use to be a useful tool for middle class and poor students.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:34 PM

39. Yes, see #38.

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Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:53 PM

50. What "servicers"?

The federal government has handled student loans since 2010. How would you suggest stopping colleges from raising tuition?

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:13 PM

28. Those loans were necessary because of cheap labor conservatism

that refused to allow wages to rise because a bunch of rich guys said that was inflationary. It's not, wages have always been a lagging indicator, meaning the inflation has happened and wages are playing catch up.

Except they were never allowed to catch up and now the minimum wage isn't just below poverty, it's below subsistence.

This is the crime perpetrated against the American working public and their children, and forgiving the most predatory of those loans is a must.

You don't think all those billionaires actually earned that money, do you?

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:13 PM

29. Goes back

To if they are going to pay they need to refund those who did pay their loans. Several of the ones I know that paid off their loans were not wealthy and are still barely making it.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:24 PM

31. From what I see ...

... these are not really loans - they are Revenue Streams. They are designed NOT to be paid off.

I see more and more of this Revenue Stream stuff every year - used to be you bought something, you owned it, now they want you to only be able to rent your iPhone, your car, etc.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:26 PM

32. Great line I saw the other day

"Retrumplicans can't even enjoy a good meal unless they know someone else is starving"

Guess that extends to some DUers too.

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #32)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:53 PM

49. You hit the nail on the head. /nt

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:33 PM

37. I'd say the interest could have been waived, but you must pay what you borrow

Last edited Wed Aug 24, 2022, 10:33 PM - Edit history (3)

it’s not about progressivism but simply following through on what you signed up for. I know folks with student debt and none of them went to junior/community college unlike those who don’t have debt. I get it that corporations and banks get bailed out too but those orgs employ people.
Unfortunately, I am afraid this is not going to be a winning issue for us. Forgive interest, tie repayments to income, offer significant extensions, etc. (some of it is done too), but you never just “forgive” the principle.

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Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #37)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 11:14 PM

58. Much of what you suggest was also announced today

My spouse and I had debt from undergrad and grad school. Prevented us from buying a house for 10 years.

We made sure our child did not have debt. Made lots of sacrifices to make this happen.

I don’t wish school debt on anyone.

I want college students who choose teaching and nursing and social work and public service. I want lawyers and doctors who work in areas of poverty or as public defenders.

As was said by another on DU, I don’t need to benefit from every program in order to feel good about it. I advocate for caps on insulin and prescription drugs even though I don’t need any - why should student debt relief be any different?

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:35 PM

42. It's as bad as whining about "your tax dollars" going to schools when you got no kids nt.

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Response to drray23 (Original post)

Wed Aug 24, 2022, 11:54 PM

59. I'm sure that those who are complaining have benefitted from another taxpayer funded windfall

of some kind, whether a PPP loan or some other giveaway. If not, then just hold on. It will come eventually. And I say this as someone who will likely not benefit from student loan forgiveness unless Biden clears my 1600 balance asap. I just checked my loan account and nothing has changed lol.

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