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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhen is Garland going to arrest Trump for Obstructing a Federal Grand Jury subpoena?
If any one of us did this we would already be arrested. Trump is a civilian. An ex -president has no special legal protections. Trump committed this crime as a civilian. This is a simple, easily proved charge. It is a felony.
The subpoena ordered Trump to return all documents. He and his legal team lied. Thy did not return all the documents. That is a crime that cannot be ignored by Garland. At some point he is going to have to arrest Trump. Charges for stealing, removing, sharing the secret documents can come later.
Is Garland waiting for the elections to be over? If so, I can see no reason why he can't arrest Trump soon after the elections for obstruction.
I understand why Garlands investigation into Jan 6th is taking a long time. It is a massive investigation. An obstruction charge is not complicated. Arrest that traitor now. It's time to stop playing games with every crime Trump commits. Just my opinion.
PJMcK
(22,032 posts)What difference does it make? Does AG Garland really think his department isn't influencing public opinion? If anything, he's hurting his own reputation more than anyone else's.
On the one hand, AG Garland is Hamlet-like and can't make up his mind. On the other, his inaction looks cowardly. What's he afraid of?
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Take no action that may influence the election in any way. Yes I know Trump is not running, but that does not matter. It would be seen as very political and an attempt to influence the elections. Because of the 60 day rule I believed Garland should have arrested Trump immediately after the secret documents. Garland thinks other wise.
Garland is not a coward. Garland is very careful and he follows the law. He will charge Trump with obstruction. There is no other choice.
It is just my opinion he could have done by now.
PJMcK
(22,032 posts)Tell it to Comey.
ETA: Trump isn't on the ballot. Do ALL DOJ investigations go on hold for 60 days?
Trump is a regular citizen who hasn't declared his candidacy for anything. If he does run for president does that mean he can't be indicted, too?
It's a silly rule.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Comey most likely handed the election to Trump when he reopened the investigation into Clinton days before the election. That was a big fucking mistake. An historic mistake.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Trump is not. Its a rather important distinction. Does the DOJ have some calculus to decipher the wider political implications of every indictment they may make in election years involving political figures not on the ballot?
Marius25
(3,213 posts)This rule means that anyone can evade the law just by running for elections.
It's a stupid rule that Garland needs to scrap.
triron
(21,999 posts)Before the election. But rule or no rule garland is a fucking fool to wait. Trump is a clear and present danger to our democracy, such as it is.
blueknight73
(295 posts)have a hard time believing it's ever going to happen
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)The question is when? Clear cut crime. Clear cut conviction.
JT45242
(2,264 posts)If the gerrymandering and voter suppression work as planned (and given the nature of gqp projection...votes get flipped in Ky and other states that somehow had underwater candidate like Moscow Mitch, Leningrad Lindsay, and clutch my pearls collins win by double digits...the new Congress will abolish whatever parts of the DOJ they need to in order to protect TFG.
Justice delayed is justice denied.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)He's not going to be arresting him for anything. As many of us have said for some time.
Very disappointing, but true.
brooklynite
(94,503 posts)As to: when will Garland have Trump indicted? The answer is: when his case is ready and not before.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)The obstruction case against Trump is as clear cut as Bannons case. There is no defense. In Bannons case it was a misdemeanor. In Trumps case it is a felony. Trumps obstruction is much, much worse than Bannons obstruction.
Trumps obstruction calls for swift action, not like the Jan 6th investigation.
brooklynite
(94,503 posts)My wife was a Federal Prosecutor, dealing with cases far less pivotal than indicting a former President. The development of case takes the time it takes. "We all know he's guilty" isn't something you bring to a Jury.
Response to brooklynite (Reply #12)
fightforfreedom This message was self-deleted by its author.
brooklynite
(94,503 posts)This had to do with NARA requesting DOJ to intercede on its behalf for compliance with the PRA. The Grand Jury is addressing Jan 6 issues.
Response to brooklynite (Reply #18)
fightforfreedom This message was self-deleted by its author.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)This is for the Jan 6th investigation, This happened in May. It has been reported on MSNBC they subpoenaed Trump in May to turn over all the documents at his resort. Then in June FBI agents, a top DOJ prosecutor went to Trumps resort. They looked at the room where the boxes were stored. Then Trumps lawyer handed them some more documents.
Then they got Trumps lawyer to sign a document stating all documents had been turned over. It wasn't until August when the warrant was issued. It's crazy.
BumRushDaShow
(128,870 posts)after asking over and over about returning stuff that may have been removed that belong to the government.
Published Mon, Feb 7 2022 4:56 PM EST | Updated Mon, Feb 7 20226:11 PM EST
(snip)
In a statement to NBC News Monday afternoon, the National Archives confirmed that it arranged for the transport of 15 boxes of presidential records out of Trumps Palm Beach, Florida, residence in mid-January following discussions with President Trumps representatives in 2021.
Trumps representatives have informed NARA that they are continuing to search for additional Presidential records that belong to the National Archives, the statement said.
(snip)
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/national-archives-retrieved-15-boxes-of-trump-white-house-documents-from-mar-a-lago.html
This is when they realized that they were really being stone-walled and did their referral - IN FEBRUARY - to get "legal help" to enforce the law and further investigate for possible criminal infractions.
The request came amid revelations that officials recovered 15 boxes of materials from the former presidents Mar-a-Lago residence that werent handed back to the government as they should have been
By Matt Zapotosky, Jacqueline Alemany, Ashley Parker and Josh Dawsey
Updated February 9, 2022 at 4:05 p.m. EST | Published February 9, 2022 at 3:05 p.m. EST
The National Archives and Records Administration has asked the Justice Department to examine Donald Trumps handling of White House records, sparking discussions among federal law enforcement officials about whether they should investigate the former president for a possible crime, according to two people familiar with the matter.
The referral from the National Archives came amid recent revelations that officials recovered 15 boxes of materials from the former presidents Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida that were not handed back in to the government as they should have been, and that Trump had turned over other White House records that had been torn up. Archives officials suspected Trump had possibly violated laws concerning the handling of government documents including those that might be considered classified and reached out to the Justice Department, the people familiar with the matter said.
The people spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a politically sensitive request. The two people said the discussions about the matter remained preliminary, and it was not yet clear whether the Justice Department would investigate. The department also might be interested in merely reclaiming classified materials. A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment.
(snip)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/09/trump-archives-justice-department/
Once DOJ had the referral, they worked with NARA regarding what the heck was going on and what was potentially missing, and this lead to the eventual escalation through court intervention.
DOJ had apparently interviewed aides in April/May before issuing the May subpoenas, and then actually sent investigators onsite to MAL in June to retrieve more documents. While there, they also found other stuff that was laying around unsecured, which is where you might recall the reports about these investigators telling the facility to secure the suspect storage room with some kind of padlock (and at that point, they were apparently being thwarted from being able to look any further at the stuff there and were not authorized to involuntarily "take" anything from that room) -
Hannah Getahun
Aug 8, 2022, 11:16 PM
(snip)
Investigators met with Trump's lawyers at Mar-a-Lago months ago to evaluate the documents Trump had taken during his time at the White House, CNN reported. Trump was also present during the meeting, albeit momentarily, sources told CNN.
The CNN report does not specify when exactly investigators met with Trump, but said Trump aides were interviewed about the documents by the FBI in April and May.
(snip)
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-asked-lawyers-add-padlock-office-before-fbi-search-2022-8
The search and seizure affidavit that is here (PDF) actually shows the timeline... The subpoenas were for all items and when that was not complied with, a search and seizure warrant was obtained to remove items involuntarily once they realized that even after the subpoena, there was stone-walling of compliance, that lead to putting the case together to obtain a search and seizure.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)I would be happy if: 1) a FISA court would secretly order (or has already ordered) all levels of surveillance of Trump due to the ongoing threat he poses to our national security; 2) Merrick Garland to quietly go about his business crafting all sorts of indictments against Trump and his cronies while 3) the J6 committee returns with another edition of Naked and Insurrect for a few weeks, revealing more and more heinous and criminal behavior at the hands of the Trump cabal; 4) the mid-terms; and 5) a cascade of indictments beginning a few days after election day, one after the other, moving up the chain of command and culminating in a major indictment for a myriad of crimes committed by one Donald J. Trump.
Anyway, that's how I'd play it.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)The secret document investigation is NOTHING like The Jan 6th investigation. I always understood the Jan 6th investigation was going to take time because it is the largest investigation in our history. Thousands of people are involved.
The secret document investigation calls for swift action.
I can understand why Garland would not want to arrest Trump right before the election. However, after the election I can see no reason why Garland cannot take action against Trump and his lawyers when it comes to Obstruction of Justice.
Lets be honest, on the surface, letting secret documents lay around a resort for 18 months is fucking crazy. No one has really explained that. There may be a very good reason they spent months pleading with Trump to return the secret documents, secret documents that are a major threat to our national security. On the surface it looks terrible, incompetent.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)I honestly can't believe a known national security threat like this could be known to the powers that be without their taking action in some manner. Any action would necessarily be covert and that's why we don't know about it.
BumRushDaShow
(128,870 posts)Remember "documents" are NOT DOJ's purview, they are NARA's and the document owners' issue (e.g., DOD, State, DOE, etc) and NARA was the one in communications with 45's lawyers "over those 18 months".
Only after NARA finally got 1 set of boxes back, did they realize what was even there and that they had finally exhausted their own authority to retrieve them.... which snowballed into the avalanche of revelations that we see today with bringing DOJ in to carry out legal enforcement mechanisms (subpoenas, search warrants, and seizures, NONE of which NARA, or most other federal agences, are authorized to do on their own).
THAT is how the federal government works. DOJ is not keeper of the federal government. They are the criminal enforcement arm of it.
There is this assumption, for some reason, that DOJ "knew" on January 20, 2021 at 12:01 pm, that "secret documents" had been removed and taken to MAL, and they "sat on" that knowledge for almost 2 years.
It's a bizarre narrative that keeps persisting and makes absolutely zero sense as to why.
We seriously need a "Civics 101" group.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,363 posts)BumRushDaShow
(128,870 posts)regarding how our federal government was set up and how it interactively works (which is somewhat complex but is an interesting lesson on "federalism" and the many many functions of the Executive Branch).
When a schlock food manufacturer refuses to allow FDA inspectors in to look at their operations after a number of escalating requests to inspect the facility, the FDA's inspectors don't go bust down the doors themselves and go in anyway, they contact DOJ to get warrants to enter the facility and seize a specific list of products, and the U.S. Marshals Service will supply personnel to accompany those inspectors to do the seizure and/or DOJ will file an injunction in court to force the manufacturer to cease operations.
DOJ has no damn idea that "ABC Foods" has a hole in the roof of their food processing plant that is leaking all over an assembly line of some product while mice are also running around the place, UNTIL FDA reaches the end of their authority to get the plant to correct the problem, and is forced to bring DOJ in to put a stop to the violations in court.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,363 posts)perfectly said.
stopdiggin
(11,296 posts)And thanks also for (trying) to debunk the idea that DOJ has been 'aware, in on this' from the very earliest stages. That's not the narrative that has been presented.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)They knew documents were missing last year. They got back dozens of boxes in January and realized there were many still missing. Is this when they notified the DOJ? I am trying to understand this because there is a lot different views on what is going on. A lot of different things being reported.
I assumed the DOJ was notified early on secret documents were missing. According to your post they were not. It was logical to assume when people learned secret documents were missing they would immediately notify the DOJ.
BumRushDaShow
(128,870 posts)NARA doesn't have direct access to "secret documents". Those are apparently kept within their agencies (whoever generated them) and are tracked. Apparently the fact that there were such items found in that initial set of boxes that were retrieved, probably raised a million alarm bells and suggested there might be more "out there". This is what apparently triggered them to go to DOJ.
By who? They wouldn't know what was "missing" unless perhaps, someone from DOD looked and said - "Whoa - someone 'checked this out' and custody was apparently lost". But they can't jump to that conclusion until they verify that the item was really "missing" (and not destroyed per their Records Control Schedule) and if it was, what happened. They are doing that now.
And if these items were taken by people no longer in the government with the change in administration, and if they did it for nefarious reasons, then they sure as hell are not notifying anyone. And any new people coming into those higher level positions wouldn't know this happened either unless someone was a whistleblower (and there is a whole whistleblower process to alert to a problem if the agency leadership won't act on potential internal criminal activity).
Look what happened with the Secret Service OIG.
Remember, Biden wasn't in office, nor were his appointees, when this stuff was removed on "move out day" (just before and during the inauguration).
Who/what needs to be investigated at this point, and has probably been ongoing OUT of the public view and media, is tracing back chain of custody of these documents. And again, many of the people who might have had that type of access (like Kushner) are no longer there.
Every agency has an "escalating process" where they have some equivalent to a "Compliance Branch" who works with their own agency lawyers to do the info requests and when their targets are still not being responsive, they go to DOJ so DOJ can enforce the requests through the courts.
This revelation literally opened up a whole new realm of criminality outside of "overturning an election" and the violent events of January 6.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)trump is charged/indicted/arrested/put before a jury - the better for trump.
The evidence against trump keeps building, trump's positions have gotten weaker, on many fronts.
The investigators & prosecutors have gotten stronger. Important [Lincoln] Public Sentiment, against trump and republicons has gotten stronger - some 'con pols are bolting on abortion, many are generally distancing some on trumpism.
DOJ is going after, as they should, more than trump. Enablers, systemic 'con corruption, etc.
In a very difficult environment, progress seems to be going well.
Hotler
(11,420 posts)stopdiggin
(11,296 posts)(with a single component requiring little investigation ... )
I wonder if our security apparatus looks at it the same way?
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)Figuring out the damage done, crimes committed, from secret documents laying around a resort for many months, That's complex.
stopdiggin
(11,296 posts)a much larger thing, with a lot of moving pieces. And even the obstruction part of it, almost certainly involves other people, other threads, and a timeline that has to be nailed down.
i.e., despite your stated opinion, it is simply not as simple and rote as you would have it to be.
Respectfully - the more you double down on this - the less ...
------ ------
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)BumRushDaShow
(128,870 posts)and they are basically one cog in the process. They don't always have a full understanding of how many agencies function, which is why that agency has to go through a lot of hoops to spell it out for "the prosecutors" (i.e., reference statutes that might apply and why). Usually agencies have a whole template to do this that provided by DOJ. From that point on, DOJ uses that, along with any ancillary info they are able to obtain through subpoena and witness statements, to decide how to proceed.
The news shows rarely bring in actual agency people (outside of people like Fauci or Walensky, etc) to try to explain what they do. They do their programming based on the legal angles (where they as the media would have access through FOI, of court actions). What agencies do for internal processes are considered "mundane, boring, and bureaucratic", despite the fact that most of that was put in place was because Congress passed a law that demanded it be done.