Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Stinky The Clown

(67,788 posts)
Mon Sep 12, 2022, 07:13 PM Sep 2022

A local father shot hs wife and three kids and then himself. "He obtained the gun legally"

The first sentence of the OP is tragic and sadly, not as uncommon as it should be.

The second sentence is the point of this post.

HE

OBTAINED

THE

GUN

LEGALLY.

When will America have had enough of the MOTHERFUCKING GUNS??????????????

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
A local father shot hs wife and three kids and then himself. "He obtained the gun legally" (Original Post) Stinky The Clown Sep 2022 OP
So if he obtained the gun legally it's ok to kill with it?? Srkdqltr Sep 2022 #1
We are the only country with this problem. AndyS Sep 2022 #2
AR-15 style guns eere involved in 3% of firearm homicides Kaleva Sep 2022 #3
I don't AndyS Sep 2022 #8
You must care because you mentioned them Kaleva Sep 2022 #9
I don't really care AndyS Sep 2022 #10
You are free to not care about facts Kaleva Sep 2022 #11
And nobody can force you to behave like a caring human being. AndyS Sep 2022 #12
I do care. That's why I think facts are very important. Kaleva Sep 2022 #13
Only 3%. AndyS Sep 2022 #14
You are aware that over half that number are suicides? Kaleva Sep 2022 #15
What??? AndyS Sep 2022 #17
I clearly said 3% of all gun related homicides. Post #3 Kaleva Sep 2022 #18
Well if we're going to go back to older posts in the sub thread, AndyS Sep 2022 #19
So what was the purpose of mentioning the AR-15 ? Kaleva Sep 2022 #20
The rule of holes is when you're in one, stop digging. Why not just stop? AndyS Sep 2022 #22
Why did he kill his family? PJMcK Sep 2022 #4
There's a story of a mother who drowned her 3 young children Kaleva Sep 2022 #5
Most similar cases Have shown they had financial troubles JI7 Sep 2022 #6
You won't find this in the media FreeState Sep 2022 #7
People Control, Not Gun Control Sancho Sep 2022 #16
Legal ownership of a firearm is legal until it's not. Torchlight Sep 2022 #21

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
2. We are the only country with this problem.
Mon Sep 12, 2022, 07:41 PM
Sep 2022

Other countries have requirements for owning guns. Requirements like training, mental health exam, interviews with family and employer, waiting periods, periodic renewal of owner license and a real background check instead of a partial criminal record check. Not one of those requirements would violate the 2nd Amendment.

The only thing they would do is INCONVIENCE someone who wants to buy a gun.

So instead of inconveniencing a gun buyer beyond 108 seconds (the average time to pass a 'background check') we allow 48,000 people to die and three times that be injured by guns.

108 Seconds. All that stands between an 18 year old distressed male and an AR15 military grade attack weapon in most states.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
10. I don't really care
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 08:49 AM
Sep 2022

about extraneous and totally meaningless statistics posted by someone who would defend a totally useless piece of shit that kills people.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
11. You are free to not care about facts
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 08:57 AM
Sep 2022

Nobody here is trying to force you to live in a rational, fact based world.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
13. I do care. That's why I think facts are very important.
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 09:10 AM
Sep 2022

One cannot do anything meaningful or productive in dealing with a serious issue, like gun control, if they don't know the facts.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
14. Only 3%.
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 09:50 AM
Sep 2022

It's the only that's galling. You imply that 3% doesn't rise to the level of a concern. It's the look-over-there deflection that gunners use to defend their beloved. Only 3%, so small a number we needn't consider regulating AR 15s.

So how many is only 3%?

2021 saw 48,000 deaths by gunfire--a historical record by the way--and perhaps 3x that number injured. 3% of 48,000=1440. 3% of ~150,000=~4500. Not quite 6000. Surely not enough to concern ourselves about. It's just numbers and facts and shit.

In that 3% are Sandy Hook (26), Uvalde (21), Stoneman Douglas (17), Las Vegas (60+413 injured), Pulse nightclub (49+50 injured), Southerland Springs (26). Victims from ages 5 to 60. Some one's child, spouse, lover, parent. It's just numbers and facts and rational thinking and shit.

So excuse the fuck out of me when I say your idea of caring just doesn't interest me.

ONLY.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
15. You are aware that over half that number are suicides?
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 10:14 AM
Sep 2022

43% of gun related deaths are homicides so we are talking about 3% of 43% of approx. 48,000.

"Data reveals that suicides are a more common cause of firearm-related deaths than homicides, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. In 2020, 54% of all firearm-related deaths were suicides, 43% were homicides and 2% were accidental discharges or undetermined causes, according to the foundation."

https://www.njspotlightnews.org/2022/09/report-access-guns-firearms-home-plays-role-suicide-deaths-violence-safe-storage/

As for suicides, any gun available, doesn't matter what type it is, is an extreme danger for those who have mental health issues or are experiencing a mental breakdown.

Your focus on the AR15 detracts from the danger that all guns pose. I may be wrong but I think your focus on just one type of gun, the AR15 style, ignores the big picture.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
17. What???
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 10:59 AM
Sep 2022

You said ONLY 3%. That is a deflection. I pointed out that ONLY 3% is a big number. Now we run down the rabbit hole of suicide being half the number as if suicide with a gun isn't somehow dead by gun it's dead by suicide. That's a deflection. As egregious as that is you further the deflection from AR 15 to ALL guns.

Do you realize that ALL guns includes AR 15s? Or is that some sort of mystically differentiated kind of gun that isn't included in ALL guns? Why do you defend this one particular kind of gun so? What is it about this one gun that engenders such affection and loyalty?

The biggest attempted deception of all in defense of the lovely AR 15 is that by even mentioning it means that ALL other gun reform is off the table. It's not, never has been and never will be. That's a weasley way of minimizing gun violence over all.

To say that by paying attention to 3% of gun violence is to ignore 97% is one of the dumbest and most ignorant red herrings I've seen and by the way, statistically speaking 3% is a big fucking number.

This isn't a high school debate team exercise with the goal to score points. This is real life. And death. It's about death, grief, loss and actual pain. All the bullshit about 'logic and facts' being spread here is just bullshit in defense of the indefensible.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
18. I clearly said 3% of all gun related homicides. Post #3
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 11:19 AM
Sep 2022

Here's a link to it:

"AR-15 style guns eere involved in 3% of firearm homicides"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17150710

You are the one that brought up the AR15 in post #2:

"108 Seconds. All that stands between an 18 year old distressed male and an AR15 military grade attack weapon in most states."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17150347

Your comment:

" statistically speaking 3% is a big fucking number."

3% of 43% of 48000 is about 619. Not a big number in a country with a population of 331,002,651.

The way on can tell how important an issue is to that person is by how much they know about it. A concerned person would take the time to learn. A few minutes not even every day would do it. A person who doesn't know much doesn't care. It's okay with me if you don't actually care.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
19. Well if we're going to go back to older posts in the sub thread,
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 12:24 PM
Sep 2022

lets go to the first one:


Other countries have requirements for owning guns. Requirements like training, mental health exam, interviews with family and employer, waiting periods, periodic renewal of owner license and a real background check instead of a partial criminal record check. Not one of those requirements would violate the 2nd Amendment.

The only thing they would do is INCONVIENCE someone who wants to buy a gun.

So instead of inconveniencing a gun buyer beyond 108 seconds (the average time to pass a 'background check') we allow 48,000 people to die and three times that be injured by guns.


108 Seconds. All that stands between an 18 year old distressed male and an AR15 military grade attack weapon in most states.


The AR 15 comment was only one sentence; 21 words out of 114. If someone micro focused on one aspect of gundom it was you, Kaleva. I made a larger statement about gun reform, it was you who morphed it into a loving defense of the AR 15 because of a single comment about 108 seconds.

So now, completely out of defensive commentary of an indefensible love affair with one kind of gun you resort to another logical fallacy, ad homonym:
"The way on can tell how important an issue is to that person is by how much they know about it. A concerned person would take the time to learn. A few minutes not even every day would do it. A person who doesn't know much doesn't care. It's okay with me if you don't actually care."


Even if a civilized caring human being were to accept your biased massaging of the numbers in loving defense of the beloved AR 15, are you invoking the justification Gregg Abbot used when addressed 19 parents at Uvalde; 'It could have been worse'? Is 619 a small enough number of families and loved ones in grieving to ignore?

Anticipating your next fusillade let me say I haven't attacked you as a person but the mindless defense of one kind of gun when the conversation was never about that. If you took that as me trying to shame you for making such a defense my work here is done.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
20. So what was the purpose of mentioning the AR-15 ?
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 04:56 PM
Sep 2022

If, as you say now, was just a very minor point? Is the availability of AR-15s a really big issue with you or not? I'm thinking it is because you mentioned it. But you didn't mention handguns even though they are the type of gun used in the vast number of gun related homicides. Why?

A suggestion I'd that if the last sentence of your post was just a fleeting one, then edit it out. Then it'd be clear that you are talking about all guns and not just one style of gun used in a very small percentage, low single digits, of gun related homicides.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
22. The rule of holes is when you're in one, stop digging. Why not just stop?
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 05:46 PM
Sep 2022

Suggest all you wish. I'd suggest you stop fantasizing about what I thought or what I meant or how important your beloved AR 15 is but you're far too invested in that gun to even understand my suggestion much less consider it.

21 words of 114. It's not the main idea of my post. By now you know it, anyone reading the sub thread knows it and I know it.

Have a good day Kaleva and post one more time so you can declare victory and have a metaphorical cigarette as you drift off to sleep completely satisfied in your finish.

FreeState

(10,570 posts)
7. You won't find this in the media
Mon Sep 12, 2022, 10:19 PM
Sep 2022

There is some information on /exmormon on Reddit. It’s sounds like the family was in the process of leaving the Mormon church. All sorts of things happen when you leave a cult (depression, loss, family alienation etc).

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
16. People Control, Not Gun Control
Tue Sep 13, 2022, 10:16 AM
Sep 2022

This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70’s, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that weren’t secured are out of control in our society. As such, here’s what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. I’m not debating the legal language, I just think it’s the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because it’s clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learner’s license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special carry circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.). If you are carrying your gun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you lose your gun and license.
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driver’s license you need a license to fish, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»A local father shot hs wi...