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Demovictory9

(32,448 posts)
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:16 PM Sep 2022

GEN Z NEVER LEARNED TO READ CURSIVE How will they interpret the past?

The Atlantic: Gen Z Never Learned to Read Cursive.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/gen-z-handwriting-teaching-cursive-history/671246/

It was a good book, the student told the 14 others in the undergraduate seminar I was teaching, and it included a number of excellent illustrations, such as photographs of relevant Civil War manuscripts. But, he continued, those weren’t very helpful to him, because of course he couldn’t read cursive.


Had I heard him correctly? Who else can’t read cursive? I asked the class. The answer: about two-thirds. And who can’t write it? Even more. What did they do about signatures? They had invented them by combining vestiges of whatever cursive instruction they may have had with creative squiggles and flourishes. Amused by my astonishment, the students offered reflections about the place—or absence—of handwriting in their lives. Instead of the Civil War past, we found ourselves exploring a different set of historical changes. In my ignorance, I became their pupil as well as a kind of historical artifact, a Rip van Winkle confronting a transformed world.

In 2010, cursive was omitted from the new national Common Core standards for K–12 education. The students in my class, and their peers, were then somewhere in elementary school. Handwriting instruction had already been declining as laptops and tablets and lessons in “keyboarding” assumed an ever more prominent place in the classroom. Most of my students remembered getting no more than a year or so of somewhat desultory cursive training, which was often pushed aside by a growing emphasis on “teaching to the test.” Now in college, they represent the vanguard of a cursiveless world.

Although I was unaware of it at the time, the 2010 Common Core policy on cursive had generated an uproar. Jeremiads about the impending decline of civilization appeared in The Atlantic, The New Yorker, The New York Times, and elsewhere. Defenders of script argued variously that knowledge of cursive was “a basic right,” a key connection between hand and brain, an essential form of self-discipline, and a fundamental expression of identity. Its disappearance would represent a craven submission to “the tyranny of ‘relevance.’ ”

In the future, cursive will have to be taught to scholars the way Elizabethan secretary hand or paleography is today.

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GEN Z NEVER LEARNED TO READ CURSIVE How will they interpret the past? (Original Post) Demovictory9 Sep 2022 OP
Artificial Intelligence will read it to them Deuxcents Sep 2022 #1
Or they hire boomers to read to them Demovictory9 Sep 2022 #3
See a need and fill it! Nt raccoon Sep 2022 #83
Um....those who need to will learn just as genealogists have learned to read old documents. Srkdqltr Sep 2022 #2
Taking notes in school is much faster in cursive, if you aren't using your phone BComplex Sep 2022 #25
Based on what analysis? brooklynite Sep 2022 #53
People who write in cursive all the time tend to write faster in cursive. Mariana Sep 2022 #72
Agree! eom Karma13612 Sep 2022 #92
People who want to read old documents will learn to read cursive. Mariana Sep 2022 #4
I wonder what teach in place of it BlueSpot Sep 2022 #5
They teach keyboarding skills, for one thing, from as early as 2nd grade. nt pnwmom Sep 2022 #31
most people can't read Latin or Greek. The past is still interpreted. Orangepeel Sep 2022 #6
I once wrote only in cursive. At some point i swtched over..memo writing at work Demovictory9 Sep 2022 #9
I always use cursive and rarely wnylib Sep 2022 #23
I'm with you, wnylib. I only print when the form says "print name here". BComplex Sep 2022 #26
I dunno, most cursive letters are not that different from printed letters. tanyev Sep 2022 #7
Agreed. FoxNewsSucks Sep 2022 #11
Honest to goodness... Yeah, really. Lol... electric_blue68 Sep 2022 #50
It is, to some extent. Ms. Toad Sep 2022 #67
That's very insightful. I hadn't thought about it that way. ecstatic Sep 2022 #95
You'd think some people never learned anything new after they left school. Mariana Sep 2022 #73
I was student teaching 4th grade in 1995 BigmanPigman Sep 2022 #8
Computers will read the cursive unc70 Sep 2022 #10
They can't tell time on analog watches. live love laugh Sep 2022 #12
That, too. Where are the parents? Too busy going thru books at their library? Deuxcents Sep 2022 #13
I Hear That All The Time ProfessorGAC Sep 2022 #62
Good to know it's not universal. live love laugh Sep 2022 #66
Could Be ProfessorGAC Sep 2022 #68
✔️+ live love laugh Sep 2022 #69
Do they care about the past? Are you sure? I wonder. walkingman Sep 2022 #14
Wonder how they sign their signatures -- printing each letter individually? Blue Owl Sep 2022 #15
I learned to write in cursive in the 3rd grade in the 1970s. Gore1FL Sep 2022 #29
There's no requirement that a signature has be written in cursive. Mariana Sep 2022 #75
In my life I have seen very few signatures written in formal cursive Orrex Sep 2022 #80
My Cursive has devolved into a shorthand that only I can read anyway Beetwasher. Sep 2022 #16
Who reads the actual docs anyway? kysrsoze Sep 2022 #17
I also think the clock reading is more of a tale GenThePerservering Sep 2022 #22
I do melm00se Sep 2022 #44
Old Turkish was written in Arabic script and requires specialists to translate it LeftInTX Sep 2022 #45
Al-Kindi melm00se Sep 2022 #58
Until computers Karma13612 Sep 2022 #93
Can you read this? Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #18
That is medieval French, isn't it? nt markodochartaigh Sep 2022 #28
That would be my guess, lol! ShazzieB Sep 2022 #30
That would be my guess, lol! ShazzieB Sep 2022 #32
It is! Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #37
If I may be a pedantic know-it-all for a second... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2022 #79
Quite correct! Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #89
I've recently took an interest in manuscripts myself. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2022 #94
Awesome! Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #99
That's amazing. I'd really like to take a crack at period materials. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2022 #100
LOL.... Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #101
Hell I'm sure lots of those poutraged TxGuitar Sep 2022 #43
LOL inthewind21 Sep 2022 #59
Gothic Littera Bastarda script, by the looks of it. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2022 #76
And how many know Morse Code? tinrobot Sep 2022 #19
Was it ever in common daily use by every one? wnylib Sep 2022 #24
So inthewind21 Sep 2022 #60
You sidestepped my point. wnylib Sep 2022 #71
I want to add two comments madaboutharry Sep 2022 #20
Huh inthewind21 Sep 2022 #61
They can't read the street name. madaboutharry Sep 2022 #70
The sorting machines often have trouble with handwritten addresses Mariana Sep 2022 #78
Over 90 percent of the documents are already digitized JT45242 Sep 2022 #21
It's a third grade level skill. Gore1FL Sep 2022 #27
Exactly. Just like a lot of archaic skills. Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #38
No, no no! It is impossible to learn new skills outside of school! Mariana Sep 2022 #77
I'm wondering if younger people these days think the only way to learn things is betsuni Sep 2022 #84
Lots of older people took classes to learn their trades, or improve their skills. Mariana Sep 2022 #96
Not my point. betsuni Sep 2022 #97
In the 4th grade (1962) I got the top penmanship award KS Toronado Sep 2022 #33
I am left handed. Maybe it was the way it was taught, but learning cursive was torture for me. scarletlib Sep 2022 #34
Me too. And in my school, and probably none of them in those days, raccoon Sep 2022 #42
Do either of you use a a half or full hook with your hand as you write... electric_blue68 Sep 2022 #55
I saw your message number 50 above where you explained that raccoon Sep 2022 #56
Let's see if I can do better... electric_blue68 Sep 2022 #82
Pretty much a half hook. scarletlib Sep 2022 #86
Yes. There were no left handed desks at all. scarletlib Sep 2022 #85
Same here Orrex Sep 2022 #81
You know, you don't have to admit, in public that you graduated from Oxford....;) Chainfire Sep 2022 #36
Well I'm proud of the fact I graduated 3rd grade at Oxford KS Toronado Sep 2022 #40
My father would have started school in about 1917. Part of the core education was Latin. Chainfire Sep 2022 #35
". . . that among these are life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff?" gratuitous Sep 2022 #39
BUT ALL CAPS IS ALIVE AND WELL!!!! johnp3907 Sep 2022 #41
I had to show a teenager how to address a letter! bif Sep 2022 #46
If i wasnt a member of s postcard exchange group, i wouldnt be addressing Demovictory9 Sep 2022 #64
How about this? LeftInTX Sep 2022 #47
im 60 years old and other than my signature i NEVER write cursive moonshinegnomie Sep 2022 #48
I learned in gradeschool in the '50s. We had writing leftyladyfrommo Sep 2022 #52
Heck, my youngest child still finds it hard to read the time from non-digital clocks. usajumpedtheshark Sep 2022 #49
Most historic documents are incomprehensible, even if you know cursive... brooklynite Sep 2022 #51
Unless the writer is super-neat, script is hard to read for anyone Polybius Sep 2022 #54
I taught my son to sign in cursive, just because. Ilsa Sep 2022 #57
BABY BOOMERS NEVER LEARNED TO READ LUXEUIL MINUSCULE Act_of_Reparation Sep 2022 #63
They are a classic "get off my lawn" post. NT Happy Hoosier Sep 2022 #90
I'm fine with it 48656c6c6f20 Sep 2022 #65
I don't know anyone who writes in cursive, and neither (more than likely) do you Orrex Sep 2022 #74
Some people are uncomfortable with change..... brooklynite Sep 2022 #87
Must suck to be them Orrex Sep 2022 #102
When everybody had their own unique cursive, most of it sloppy, most of it difficult to read, anyway Goodheart Sep 2022 #88
I don't understand why it's so difficult ecstatic Sep 2022 #91
It isn't difficult. Mariana Sep 2022 #98

Srkdqltr

(6,271 posts)
2. Um....those who need to will learn just as genealogists have learned to read old documents.
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:21 PM
Sep 2022

Everything now is printed. I haven't read anything in cursive in years.

BComplex

(8,036 posts)
25. Taking notes in school is much faster in cursive, if you aren't using your phone
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:05 AM
Sep 2022

or ipad. It's actually something everyone should know.

brooklynite

(94,501 posts)
53. Based on what analysis?
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:03 PM
Sep 2022

I’ve served as corporate secretary taking meeting minutes for forty years. Never felt inclined to take them in cursive.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
72. People who write in cursive all the time tend to write faster in cursive.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:08 PM
Sep 2022

That makes perfect sense, because they have so much more practice writing in cursive than they do lettering. Where they go wrong is in assuming that writing in cursive is inherently faster, always, for everyone. It is not so.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
4. People who want to read old documents will learn to read cursive.
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:24 PM
Sep 2022

Books for this purpose cost less than $10. If they don't want to be bothered, they'll hire someone to transcribe for them.

BlueSpot

(855 posts)
5. I wonder what teach in place of it
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:25 PM
Sep 2022

Seems to my memory, we spent a fair bit of time on this subject in third grade.

So is this where we switched over to Satan worship and LGBTQ indoctrination?

Orangepeel

(13,933 posts)
6. most people can't read Latin or Greek. The past is still interpreted.
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:25 PM
Sep 2022

I'm old, so I can read and write cursive. But I can't remember the last time I had a reason to. It is a fine skill for people to have, but not a vital one. Like darning socks.

Demovictory9

(32,448 posts)
9. I once wrote only in cursive. At some point i swtched over..memo writing at work
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:30 PM
Sep 2022

Writing for others to read..sropped cursive.

Now dobt easily write in cursive..forgot how some letter join. 😞

BComplex

(8,036 posts)
26. I'm with you, wnylib. I only print when the form says "print name here".
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:07 AM
Sep 2022

And even then I sometimes screw up and do a little bit of cursive. It's so much easier and faster. Why would anyone print?

tanyev

(42,550 posts)
7. I dunno, most cursive letters are not that different from printed letters.
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:27 PM
Sep 2022

Seems like someone who really wanted to read something written in cursive could get up to speed pretty quickly. Makes a convenient excuse for those who don’t want to, though.

FoxNewsSucks

(10,429 posts)
11. Agreed.
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:34 PM
Sep 2022

It's not all that different. They're acting like it's an incomprehensible foreign language.

electric_blue68

(14,870 posts)
50. Honest to goodness... Yeah, really. Lol...
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:53 PM
Sep 2022

Of course, though, I have high visual skills as an artist - but it can't be that difficult. The lower case letters are close to the printed versions, "just" tilted a bit, and joined for the most part. 👍

Though as a left-hander it isn't so easy! That's why we often develop half & full hooks.
I think it's unconscious.
We are trying to more like pull our pen across the page like right-handed people do! Being left-handed we more or less push our pen across the page.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
67. It is, to some extent.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 04:38 PM
Sep 2022

I prepare students to take the bar exam. One of the components of the bar exam includes documents like you might find in a client file - including some which are written in a computer-generated cursive (meaning it is much closer to perfect than actual handwriting). I hadn't thought about it, particularly - but it was nearly impossible for my ESL students to interpret. For them, it was like adding another language on top of the English language with which they were struggling.

It should't be as hard for EFL students - but it does add significant complexity.

ecstatic

(32,681 posts)
95. That's very insightful. I hadn't thought about it that way.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 09:41 AM
Sep 2022

I took Spanish for 5 years, and in the 5th year, we were presented with a lot more Spanish written in cursive. It was automatically intimidating because I was used to seeing the words in print, and even print was getting a lot harder by year 5. If I recall correctly, my anxiety about Spanish cursive went away after seeing it a few times, but I can't imagine the difficulty for someone from a non-Latin alphabet system.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
73. You'd think some people never learned anything new after they left school.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:11 PM
Sep 2022

Why else would they go on as if learning a new skill is an impossible thing to do?

BigmanPigman

(51,584 posts)
8. I was student teaching 4th grade in 1995
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:28 PM
Sep 2022

when I first learned of the anti-cursive crusade. I thought it was a joke. My master teacher said, "How will they ever able to read their grandmother's old letters?". She made a good point.

I taught it to my students and they loved it. The 6th graders thought it was"cool" and pretty. They wanted to use it since it made them feel older. Since their cursive was newly acquired and messy I made them write their spelling tests in cursive and printing. I think it is the adults who want to get rid of it and not the students.

My high school helpers couldn't read the cursive that I expected them to know in order to grade papers. My own niece is the same way. They have some weird style of printing now that looks more like graffiti tagging and is illegible to me.

unc70

(6,110 posts)
10. Computers will read the cursive
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:30 PM
Sep 2022

The AI ability to read cursive already exists. This ability will rapidly improve. The past will not be lost. You will hold in your hand a universal translator. Cuneiform, anyone?

ProfessorGAC

(64,995 posts)
62. I Hear That All The Time
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 04:32 PM
Sep 2022

Yet, kids start packing up when there's a minute left in class.
4 years of substitute teaching, and the number of kids (admittedly 6th grade & higher) who can't tell time on a traditional clock is lower than the fingers on one hand.
Same with cursive. They don't use it, but if I write something on the board, they can all figure it out.
Now, whether the motor skills developed by learning cursive is worth teaching it is a separate matter.

ProfessorGAC

(64,995 posts)
68. Could Be
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 04:45 PM
Sep 2022

I sub in 25 schools over 17 districts. It's a broad spectrum of income brackets, too.
One thing I will say though, is that I don't let them be lazy. If I say "You've got 20 minutes" I'll tell them "The clock is right there." They might claim they can't use an analog clock, and they won't, unless they have to. With me, they have to.

Gore1FL

(21,127 posts)
29. I learned to write in cursive in the 3rd grade in the 1970s.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:12 AM
Sep 2022

It's use, over printing, was enforced from that time until I went to college.

My signature, consisting of 8 letters followed by a space, an initial, a period, another space and an additional 10 characters for my surname is pretty much a cursive J followed by an arced line.

They'll get by, I 'm sure.

Orrex

(63,201 posts)
80. In my life I have seen very few signatures written in formal cursive
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 12:05 AM
Sep 2022

And I've seen a great many signatures. Instead, each is a customized variation of cursive that the signor has developed over time, generally quite different from what was interminably taught in grade school.

kysrsoze

(6,019 posts)
17. Who reads the actual docs anyway?
Sun Sep 18, 2022, 11:53 PM
Sep 2022

History books are not written in cursive and the Constitution is available in regular typeface. What is preventing the understanding of history is willful ignorance by SOME teachers and publishers, and a lot of parents.

I don’t understand why people are getting so worked up about cursive. I gave up trying to write neat cursive - I type almost everything. I’d rather kids know how to type well and read at a proficient level.

That said, in addition to typing, my kids both recently learned cursive and I think it’s pretty cool. They also know how to read an analog clock. I think the clock thing is more of a tale than fact.

GenThePerservering

(1,806 posts)
22. I also think the clock reading is more of a tale
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:25 AM
Sep 2022

Analog watches are popular among gen-Z. And according from my many Gen Z nieces and nephews, a lot faster to read time than digging out their cell phone to look at it. They also like the sheer functionality and the many, many types of watches, etc. Digital - eh, who cares.

melm00se

(4,990 posts)
44. I do
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:24 PM
Sep 2022

When I taught as a grad student TA, we taught that history is learned from primary sources.

Some of those sources are transcribed into typeface but how do you know that the transcription is correct?

Seriously.

If all you had was a transcription of the US Constitution, how do you know what it says is actually what the Constitution says?

I admit that the Constitution is so widely read it is not the best example but how about the separation of Church and State?

It supposedly appears in a letter between Thomas Jefferson and Danbury Baptists.

Can you prove that it does?

You can find a scan of the original document:
https://www.loc.gov/item/mtjbib010955/
https://www.loc.gov/resource/mtj1.025_0557_0558/?sp=2

But if you can't read cursive, how can you determine if it does or does not.

While you might think "That only applies to history"...

How about physics?

Albert Einstein's lab/experimental notebooks are written in cursive



Or, suppose you are digging thru the archives in Istanbul and trip across this:



(and assuming you can read classic Arabic)

It is in an archive...but is it important? (it is, it is an early Arab treatise on cryptography)

Losing this skill would be a disaster and Orwell warned about this:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

LeftInTX

(25,247 posts)
45. Old Turkish was written in Arabic script and requires specialists to translate it
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:36 PM
Sep 2022

I'm Armenian and all the Turkish documents prior to 1923 were written in Arabic script. In 1923, Ataturk changed the Turkish language to Latin script, in order "Europeanize" it.

(Now Google is telling me there are online translations..yay, but still it's hard for Americans to decipher and put it in a search box..How many languages do we need to learn to study family history???)


Can't read Einstein's because it's German..LOL


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Anatolian_Turkish

Most Persian languages and Urdu are written with Arabic script. However, they are more closely related to English than than Arabic. (Indo-European language family)

Karma13612

(4,552 posts)
93. Until computers
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 09:18 AM
Sep 2022

Don’t crash, and you get rid of all elderly practitioners, “youngsters” had better know how to read cursive. And poor cursive at that.

When a hospital computer system crashes, standard protocol requires use of plain paper, printed forms with spaces for answers, and writing implements. Those forms need to be read in order for the hospital to function.

Sometimes computers being “down” is not due to a failure. It can be due to a hack or an intentional “shut down” to avoid said hack.

Bottom line, health care workers up and down the hierarchy will need to know cursive and LEGIBLE writing. Both reading and writing it. Printing quickly (everything in medicine needs to be done quickly) can often devolve into illegible scribble. Better to learn cursive to start with.

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
37. It is!
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 11:02 AM
Sep 2022

But it's hard to make out because the script style is difficult for modern readers to recognize.

This style of script is often referred to "bastarde" because many people considered is a a debasement of the typical medieval "blackletter" gothic script. It was intended to be easier and and faster for scribes to write. Ironically, this script is the beginning of the script we now call "cursive."

I own an original manuscript in this script, a land transfer from 1481. It is written in "English" but of course, it is "middle English" so the combination of eifficult to decifer script and archaic language makes it difficult to make out more than a few individual words.


Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
79. If I may be a pedantic know-it-all for a second...
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:39 PM
Sep 2022

...medieval French is a language. Cursive is a kind of script. Scripts are stylized alphabets designed for handwriting. In this case, the script appears to be Littera Bastarda, a kind of gothic script intended for "low" manuscripts (e.g., secular, non-Latin works). It's less ornate than, say, textura quadratta, but can be written more quickly.

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
89. Quite correct!
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 08:46 AM
Sep 2022

I am a fan of medieval manuscript arts. I've studied them, own facsimilies, even made replicas on actual parchment. I own a ma nuscript from 1481 written in Bastarde. It's a simple legal document, but I love it.... and it's almost 550 years old.

And yes, it's kinda trivially apparent that the language and script are different things. I posted the picture as an example of the script, the language being more or less irrelevent to my point.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
94. I've recently took an interest in manuscripts myself.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 09:26 AM
Sep 2022

I've been trying out a few scripts using a pilot parallel pen on vellum paper. So far I'm pretty decent with insular minuscule; the gothic scripts are quite difficult for me.

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
99. Awesome!
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 10:47 AM
Sep 2022

I wouldn't say I'm awesome at it, but I have made some that I gave as a gifts and the receivers seemed to like them. LOL. I also took in interest in learning how to cut quills, make period ink, and even period paints (except were the pigments are hazardous, such as the lead used for white paints).

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
100. That's amazing. I'd really like to take a crack at period materials.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 11:02 AM
Sep 2022

I looked into parchment, but from what I've seen it seems quite expensive. I'd need to practice quite a bit more before being able to justify the cost.

Also, I'd want to give illumination a shot. A completely separate skillset, I know, but it appears dedicated illuminators are hard to come by these days...

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
101. LOL....
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 11:06 AM
Sep 2022

Dick Blick used to sell parchment scraps. Maybe they still do? I bought a pack to practive on before I risked the expensive stuff. Also it comes in different grades.

I did illumination, but am no all that good at it, honestly. I did used some projection techniques to copy a few elements.

TxGuitar

(4,190 posts)
43. Hell I'm sure lots of those poutraged
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:18 PM
Sep 2022

About this would have trouble reading cursive from the early 1900s, not much more than 100 years ago.
And who the frack actually cares? I’m 55 and honestly can’t remember the last time I wrote something in cursive for someone else to read. My handwriting is too bad for that so I print when someone needs to read what I wrote.
I suspect thus poutrage comes from the same folks who learn their history from statues.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
76. Gothic Littera Bastarda script, by the looks of it.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:23 PM
Sep 2022

But yeah, I've made this point a couple of times already. Scripts come in and out of fashion. There's no more reason to catastrophize the loss of cursive than there is Roman Half-Uncial.

wnylib

(21,430 posts)
24. Was it ever in common daily use by every one?
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:03 AM
Sep 2022

I thought it was mainly used by telegraph operators and people in the military.

wnylib

(21,430 posts)
71. You sidestepped my point.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:03 PM
Sep 2022

Morse code was never in common use by everyone so falling into disuse was no big deal.

madaboutharry

(40,207 posts)
20. I want to add two comments
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:19 AM
Sep 2022

First, I love cursive. I even practice in workbooks. I know, nerdy.

Second, I read somewhere that if you address an envelope in cursive that it can take 2 to 3 days longer to arrive because not every sorter at a central post office can read it. Sometimes it is put aside for the workers there who know how to read cursive.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
78. The sorting machines often have trouble with handwritten addresses
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:35 PM
Sep 2022

especially if they are written in cursive. So it takes extra time for a human being to read the envelope and sort it correctly.

JT45242

(2,262 posts)
21. Over 90 percent of the documents are already digitized
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:24 AM
Sep 2022

I didn't read the stone tablets with no spaces between words when I took latin
You didn't read hand copies of Shakespeare, you read typed up ones that were mass-produced.

Plus there is software that scans and concerts to standard print. Somebody might double check it. But, this is the way things go.

Happy Hoosier

(7,285 posts)
38. Exactly. Just like a lot of archaic skills.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 11:04 AM
Sep 2022

And this one is easier than most. I learend cursive in the second grade. No need to waste time on a skill most don't need.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
77. No, no no! It is impossible to learn new skills outside of school!
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:26 PM
Sep 2022

Teens and adults who want to read old documents, or write in cursive for whatever reason, won't buy a $10 book and learn to read and write cursive on their own. It just can't be done!

These threads have convinced me that there's a large number of people who left school and never learned anything ever again.

betsuni

(25,462 posts)
84. I'm wondering if younger people these days think the only way to learn things is
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 05:19 AM
Sep 2022

to take classes, pay for it. Used to be that if you wanted to be a chef you learned on the job, now it's go to an expensive cooking school. Want to be a writer? You wrote. Now it's pay for a creative writing grad school degree. Have to get an MBA. Film school. A lot of things seem to be like that.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
96. Lots of older people took classes to learn their trades, or improve their skills.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 10:09 AM
Sep 2022

Colleges, universities, technical schools and vocational schools have been around for a long time. They didn't just suddenly spring up in recent years because "younger people these days think the only way to learn things is to take classes".

In my own family, my grandfather and his brother took the plumbing course at Wentworth Institute in Boston in the 1920's, after they graduated from high school. Their father was a master plumber and they worked for him, but he considered that schooling to be valuable enough that he sent them there and paid for them to go. My mother went to school to learn accounting in the 1960's, and my father took classes in electronics whenever he could fit them around his work schedule.

KS Toronado

(17,198 posts)
33. In the 4th grade (1962) I got the top penmanship award
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:31 AM
Sep 2022

in class for my cursive. That same year my dad opened a business and required all work orders
to be printed, probably because of his sloppy cursive. Before I knew it I was printing more at my
dad's shop than I was writing at school or homework.

As a freshman in high school I was the only one printing in my class, one teacher even asked me
if I knew how to write (thinking I was stupid I believe) informed him of my history and dad's
requirements at the shop and just got out of the habit, now printing felt faster and easier to me.
He said that was fine, whatever I was comfortable with but suggested I slow down just a
little bit when printing because it looked like a hybrid between the 2.

Slowed down for awhile in his class but went back to "speed printing"

And today I'm a graduate of Oxford.

raccoon

(31,110 posts)
42. Me too. And in my school, and probably none of them in those days,
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:11 PM
Sep 2022

And in my school, and probably none of them in those days,There were no accommodations at all. I had to write in a right-handed desk and you probably did too.

electric_blue68

(14,870 posts)
55. Do either of you use a a half or full hook with your hand as you write...
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:09 PM
Sep 2022

I explained it to the right handers.

I can draw for hours bc I'm not usually using a pushing motion like we do writing.
Writing my hand is tired after 2 sides, sometimes one. Blah.

raccoon

(31,110 posts)
56. I saw your message number 50 above where you explained that
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 03:05 PM
Sep 2022

I saw your message number 50 above where you explained that But I don’t understand what you’re saying.

Now, as I should’ve done years ago but teachers probably would’ve given me grief, I just take composition books, with the metal spiral, and start from the back.
So that the metal thingy is on the right.

electric_blue68

(14,870 posts)
82. Let's see if I can do better...
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 12:15 AM
Sep 2022

Seems like a right-hander holds their fingers around a 90° angle to their wrist. Then part of their hand rests on the paper as well as they write, or they hold it off the paper.
Either way - they're mostly pulling the pen across.

Left-handers if they mirror that position they're pushing the pen, and if they are keeping all, or part of their hand on the paper - depending on what they're writing with could cause a bit, to some smearing.

So I and many others curl their fingers around like the "O"
of an OK sign some curling more than others - like a hook.
This partially makes some of the motions closer to, or actually pulling the writing instrument at times. It also leave town space between instrument point and the wrist so the ink would dry in time so no smearing.

I hope this is clearer. I was doing the motions w both my right then left hand to give an accurate description vs "autopilot" thinking. 👍




.

scarletlib

(3,411 posts)
86. Pretty much a half hook.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 07:53 AM
Sep 2022

If I write a letter, etc.,I always end up with ink or graphite stains on me pinkie and side of my hand.

Orrex

(63,201 posts)
81. Same here
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 12:07 AM
Sep 2022

"Left-handed students, do it the same way, but first rotate your paper 170 degrees."

Ok, that's not an exact quote, but it might as well have been.

KS Toronado

(17,198 posts)
40. Well I'm proud of the fact I graduated 3rd grade at Oxford
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 11:48 AM
Sep 2022

along with my buddy Jethro Bodine. got ya

Chainfire

(17,530 posts)
35. My father would have started school in about 1917. Part of the core education was Latin.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 08:10 AM
Sep 2022

He thought that Latin was necessary to be well educated.

The move away from Latin and the move away from cursive are probably equivalents. In my small rural school, in the 1960s, (8th or 9the grade) we were required to take typing and bookkeeping, both of which I disliked at the time, but served me well over my lifetime. Learning to touch type is more important today than cursive. I can touch type much faster than I could ever write cursive, and when I am done, it can actually be read. In the late 60s I wrote all of my love letters to my future wife on an old Royal manual typewriter, because my cursive was so bad.

While I write in cursive poorly, I can read it...to a point. I have family journals from the 1860s that just as well be written in Greek. There are some words that I can not decipher, and can not read any of it other than word by word. My ancestor's handwriting was nice calligraphy, with a lot of extra swirls and flourishes, but I can not read as a flowing narrative.

Us old baby boomers are resistant to change just like we accused our elders of when we were young. Times change, needs change with it. What I worry about is not the form of writing that our young communicate in, but such "modern" concepts as banning classic books.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
39. ". . . that among these are life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff?"
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 11:07 AM
Sep 2022

That's "pursuit of happiness."

Well, all your s's look like f's!

bif

(22,697 posts)
46. I had to show a teenager how to address a letter!
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:41 PM
Sep 2022

When I was in rehab, there was a high schooler who wanted to write a letter home to his parents. He had no idea how to address a letter. When I asked him what his zip code was, he had no idea what I was talking about! I was stunned to say the least.

Demovictory9

(32,448 posts)
64. If i wasnt a member of s postcard exchange group, i wouldnt be addressing
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 04:35 PM
Sep 2022

Mail very often. Most mail now is incoming packaging. Even packages to young nieces and nephews.. Now sending directly thru Amazon or target. Etc

LeftInTX

(25,247 posts)
47. How about this?
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 12:54 PM
Sep 2022

It's from 1850 in Mexico.
Mexico did not start using "forms" until very recently. (After 1930..my uncle was born there in 1925 and his civil birth registration is written out in paragraphs..ugh)

However, there are facebook groups dedicated to deciphering old documents! They have specialists in those groups.

moonshinegnomie

(2,440 posts)
48. im 60 years old and other than my signature i NEVER write cursive
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 01:01 PM
Sep 2022

even when i was in college in the 80's before laptops and ipads i took notes in print.
cursive is obsolete. Id rather schools teach important subjects like math,science and personal finance rather than wasting time on cursive.
If you need to learn it for some reason (historical research for example) it should be an elective at a post high school level but other than that theres no reason to learn it.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)
52. I learned in gradeschool in the '50s. We had writing
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:03 PM
Sep 2022

Classes everyday. There were alphabet cards up over the
Blackboard. We had to practice doing endless circles. Mine never looked good. I tried and tried. Never could make them look right.

I still write cursive and shorthand. It's a lot faster.

brooklynite

(94,501 posts)
51. Most historic documents are incomprehensible, even if you know cursive...
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:01 PM
Sep 2022

…and fortunately most are being digitized to re readable by anyone.

FWIW-I stopped writing in cursive 50 years ago.

Polybius

(15,381 posts)
54. Unless the writer is super-neat, script is hard to read for anyone
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 02:08 PM
Sep 2022

I have a hard time reading my old pen-pal letters from the 90's. I wish they were all in print (or whatever word is the opposite of cursive, it's been a while).

Ilsa

(61,694 posts)
57. I taught my son to sign in cursive, just because.
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 03:09 PM
Sep 2022

And my cursive is getting worse, not due to my age, but lack of use in our modern era.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
63. BABY BOOMERS NEVER LEARNED TO READ LUXEUIL MINUSCULE
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 04:33 PM
Sep 2022

HOW WILL THEY INTERPRET THE PAST?

Kids aren't doing things the way we did things we were kids. How will the human race survive?!?!?!

Jesus Christ, these posts are so tiresome.

Orrex

(63,201 posts)
74. I don't know anyone who writes in cursive, and neither (more than likely) do you
Mon Sep 19, 2022, 05:14 PM
Sep 2022

Instead, they write in a personalized variation of cursive blended with a personalized manuscript, with the result being something sort of cursive-ish but definitely not what we wasted hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours upon in grade school.

Since graduating from high school, I have had absolutely zero reason to write in cursive beyond my signature, which as mentioned is a very customized homebrew.


Some people enjoy writing in that font, and bully for them.

Goodheart

(5,321 posts)
88. When everybody had their own unique cursive, most of it sloppy, most of it difficult to read, anyway
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 08:30 AM
Sep 2022

Nobody will lose an understanding of the past because all of the important stuff's been noncursivelessly printed.

ecstatic

(32,681 posts)
91. I don't understand why it's so difficult
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 08:54 AM
Sep 2022

Maybe I can understand not being able to write it, but don't most cursive letters look like print letters? This sounds like a problem with the way this generation has been taught to read. I never learned calligraphy but I can read it.

Is generation z unable to use context to figure things out? Do they have trouble with Wordle and Wheel of Fortune too? 🤔

And finally, why did common core remove cursive in the first place? Was it because teachers collectively decided that they didn't want to have to read sloppy handwriting? Lol.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
98. It isn't difficult.
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 10:21 AM
Sep 2022

People who didn't learn cursive in school, but who want to learn to read it are able to do so on their own pretty easily.

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