General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGEN Z NEVER LEARNED TO READ CURSIVE How will they interpret the past?
The Atlantic: Gen Z Never Learned to Read Cursive.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/gen-z-handwriting-teaching-cursive-history/671246/
It was a good book, the student told the 14 others in the undergraduate seminar I was teaching, and it included a number of excellent illustrations, such as photographs of relevant Civil War manuscripts. But, he continued, those werent very helpful to him, because of course he couldnt read cursive.
Had I heard him correctly? Who else cant read cursive? I asked the class. The answer: about two-thirds. And who cant write it? Even more. What did they do about signatures? They had invented them by combining vestiges of whatever cursive instruction they may have had with creative squiggles and flourishes. Amused by my astonishment, the students offered reflections about the placeor absenceof handwriting in their lives. Instead of the Civil War past, we found ourselves exploring a different set of historical changes. In my ignorance, I became their pupil as well as a kind of historical artifact, a Rip van Winkle confronting a transformed world.
In 2010, cursive was omitted from the new national Common Core standards for K12 education. The students in my class, and their peers, were then somewhere in elementary school. Handwriting instruction had already been declining as laptops and tablets and lessons in keyboarding assumed an ever more prominent place in the classroom. Most of my students remembered getting no more than a year or so of somewhat desultory cursive training, which was often pushed aside by a growing emphasis on teaching to the test. Now in college, they represent the vanguard of a cursiveless world.
Although I was unaware of it at the time, the 2010 Common Core policy on cursive had generated an uproar. Jeremiads about the impending decline of civilization appeared in The Atlantic, The New Yorker, The New York Times, and elsewhere. Defenders of script argued variously that knowledge of cursive was a basic right, a key connection between hand and brain, an essential form of self-discipline, and a fundamental expression of identity. Its disappearance would represent a craven submission to the tyranny of relevance.
In the future, cursive will have to be taught to scholars the way Elizabethan secretary hand or paleography is today.
Deuxcents
(16,189 posts)Demovictory9
(32,448 posts)raccoon
(31,110 posts)Srkdqltr
(6,271 posts)Everything now is printed. I haven't read anything in cursive in years.
BComplex
(8,036 posts)or ipad. It's actually something everyone should know.
brooklynite
(94,501 posts)Ive served as corporate secretary taking meeting minutes for forty years. Never felt inclined to take them in cursive.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)That makes perfect sense, because they have so much more practice writing in cursive than they do lettering. Where they go wrong is in assuming that writing in cursive is inherently faster, always, for everyone. It is not so.
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)Books for this purpose cost less than $10. If they don't want to be bothered, they'll hire someone to transcribe for them.
BlueSpot
(855 posts)Seems to my memory, we spent a fair bit of time on this subject in third grade.
So is this where we switched over to Satan worship and LGBTQ indoctrination?
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)I'm old, so I can read and write cursive. But I can't remember the last time I had a reason to. It is a fine skill for people to have, but not a vital one. Like darning socks.
Demovictory9
(32,448 posts)Writing for others to read..sropped cursive.
Now dobt easily write in cursive..forgot how some letter join. 😞
wnylib
(21,430 posts)rarely write anything in print. Cursive is faster.
BComplex
(8,036 posts)And even then I sometimes screw up and do a little bit of cursive. It's so much easier and faster. Why would anyone print?
tanyev
(42,550 posts)Seems like someone who really wanted to read something written in cursive could get up to speed pretty quickly. Makes a convenient excuse for those who dont want to, though.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,429 posts)It's not all that different. They're acting like it's an incomprehensible foreign language.
electric_blue68
(14,870 posts)Of course, though, I have high visual skills as an artist - but it can't be that difficult. The lower case letters are close to the printed versions, "just" tilted a bit, and joined for the most part. 👍
Though as a left-hander it isn't so easy! That's why we often develop half & full hooks.
I think it's unconscious.
We are trying to more like pull our pen across the page like right-handed people do! Being left-handed we more or less push our pen across the page.
Ms. Toad
(34,060 posts)I prepare students to take the bar exam. One of the components of the bar exam includes documents like you might find in a client file - including some which are written in a computer-generated cursive (meaning it is much closer to perfect than actual handwriting). I hadn't thought about it, particularly - but it was nearly impossible for my ESL students to interpret. For them, it was like adding another language on top of the English language with which they were struggling.
It should't be as hard for EFL students - but it does add significant complexity.
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)I took Spanish for 5 years, and in the 5th year, we were presented with a lot more Spanish written in cursive. It was automatically intimidating because I was used to seeing the words in print, and even print was getting a lot harder by year 5. If I recall correctly, my anxiety about Spanish cursive went away after seeing it a few times, but I can't imagine the difficulty for someone from a non-Latin alphabet system.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Why else would they go on as if learning a new skill is an impossible thing to do?
BigmanPigman
(51,584 posts)when I first learned of the anti-cursive crusade. I thought it was a joke. My master teacher said, "How will they ever able to read their grandmother's old letters?". She made a good point.
I taught it to my students and they loved it. The 6th graders thought it was"cool" and pretty. They wanted to use it since it made them feel older. Since their cursive was newly acquired and messy I made them write their spelling tests in cursive and printing. I think it is the adults who want to get rid of it and not the students.
My high school helpers couldn't read the cursive that I expected them to know in order to grade papers. My own niece is the same way. They have some weird style of printing now that looks more like graffiti tagging and is illegible to me.
unc70
(6,110 posts)The AI ability to read cursive already exists. This ability will rapidly improve. The past will not be lost. You will hold in your hand a universal translator. Cuneiform, anyone?
live love laugh
(13,100 posts)Deuxcents
(16,189 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,995 posts)Yet, kids start packing up when there's a minute left in class.
4 years of substitute teaching, and the number of kids (admittedly 6th grade & higher) who can't tell time on a traditional clock is lower than the fingers on one hand.
Same with cursive. They don't use it, but if I write something on the board, they can all figure it out.
Now, whether the motor skills developed by learning cursive is worth teaching it is a separate matter.
live love laugh
(13,100 posts)I do think its more prevalent in some locales though.
ProfessorGAC
(64,995 posts)I sub in 25 schools over 17 districts. It's a broad spectrum of income brackets, too.
One thing I will say though, is that I don't let them be lazy. If I say "You've got 20 minutes" I'll tell them "The clock is right there." They might claim they can't use an analog clock, and they won't, unless they have to. With me, they have to.
live love laugh
(13,100 posts)walkingman
(7,597 posts)Blue Owl
(50,349 posts)Gore1FL
(21,127 posts)It's use, over printing, was enforced from that time until I went to college.
My signature, consisting of 8 letters followed by a space, an initial, a period, another space and an additional 10 characters for my surname is pretty much a cursive J followed by an arced line.
They'll get by, I 'm sure.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Orrex
(63,201 posts)And I've seen a great many signatures. Instead, each is a customized variation of cursive that the signor has developed over time, generally quite different from what was interminably taught in grade school.
Beetwasher.
(2,970 posts)kysrsoze
(6,019 posts)History books are not written in cursive and the Constitution is available in regular typeface. What is preventing the understanding of history is willful ignorance by SOME teachers and publishers, and a lot of parents.
I dont understand why people are getting so worked up about cursive. I gave up trying to write neat cursive - I type almost everything. Id rather kids know how to type well and read at a proficient level.
That said, in addition to typing, my kids both recently learned cursive and I think its pretty cool. They also know how to read an analog clock. I think the clock thing is more of a tale than fact.
GenThePerservering
(1,806 posts)Analog watches are popular among gen-Z. And according from my many Gen Z nieces and nephews, a lot faster to read time than digging out their cell phone to look at it. They also like the sheer functionality and the many, many types of watches, etc. Digital - eh, who cares.
When I taught as a grad student TA, we taught that history is learned from primary sources.
Some of those sources are transcribed into typeface but how do you know that the transcription is correct?
Seriously.
If all you had was a transcription of the US Constitution, how do you know what it says is actually what the Constitution says?
I admit that the Constitution is so widely read it is not the best example but how about the separation of Church and State?
It supposedly appears in a letter between Thomas Jefferson and Danbury Baptists.
Can you prove that it does?
You can find a scan of the original document:
https://www.loc.gov/item/mtjbib010955/
https://www.loc.gov/resource/mtj1.025_0557_0558/?sp=2
But if you can't read cursive, how can you determine if it does or does not.
While you might think "That only applies to history"...
How about physics?
Albert Einstein's lab/experimental notebooks are written in cursive
Or, suppose you are digging thru the archives in Istanbul and trip across this:
(and assuming you can read classic Arabic)
It is in an archive...but is it important? (it is, it is an early Arab treatise on cryptography)
Losing this skill would be a disaster and Orwell warned about this:
LeftInTX
(25,247 posts)I'm Armenian and all the Turkish documents prior to 1923 were written in Arabic script. In 1923, Ataturk changed the Turkish language to Latin script, in order "Europeanize" it.
(Now Google is telling me there are online translations..yay, but still it's hard for Americans to decipher and put it in a search box..How many languages do we need to learn to study family history???)
Can't read Einstein's because it's German..LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Anatolian_Turkish
Most Persian languages and Urdu are written with Arabic script. However, they are more closely related to English than than Arabic. (Indo-European language family)
melm00se
(4,990 posts)was from the 9th century (CE) Abbasid Caliphate (modern day Iraq).
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Dont crash, and you get rid of all elderly practitioners, youngsters had better know how to read cursive. And poor cursive at that.
When a hospital computer system crashes, standard protocol requires use of plain paper, printed forms with spaces for answers, and writing implements. Those forms need to be read in order for the hospital to function.
Sometimes computers being down is not due to a failure. It can be due to a hack or an intentional shut down to avoid said hack.
Bottom line, health care workers up and down the hierarchy will need to know cursive and LEGIBLE writing. Both reading and writing it. Printing quickly (everything in medicine needs to be done quickly) can often devolve into illegible scribble. Better to learn cursive to start with.
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)markodochartaigh
(1,138 posts)ShazzieB
(16,368 posts)ShazzieB
(16,368 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)But it's hard to make out because the script style is difficult for modern readers to recognize.
This style of script is often referred to "bastarde" because many people considered is a a debasement of the typical medieval "blackletter" gothic script. It was intended to be easier and and faster for scribes to write. Ironically, this script is the beginning of the script we now call "cursive."
I own an original manuscript in this script, a land transfer from 1481. It is written in "English" but of course, it is "middle English" so the combination of eifficult to decifer script and archaic language makes it difficult to make out more than a few individual words.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...medieval French is a language. Cursive is a kind of script. Scripts are stylized alphabets designed for handwriting. In this case, the script appears to be Littera Bastarda, a kind of gothic script intended for "low" manuscripts (e.g., secular, non-Latin works). It's less ornate than, say, textura quadratta, but can be written more quickly.
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)I am a fan of medieval manuscript arts. I've studied them, own facsimilies, even made replicas on actual parchment. I own a ma nuscript from 1481 written in Bastarde. It's a simple legal document, but I love it.... and it's almost 550 years old.
And yes, it's kinda trivially apparent that the language and script are different things. I posted the picture as an example of the script, the language being more or less irrelevent to my point.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I've been trying out a few scripts using a pilot parallel pen on vellum paper. So far I'm pretty decent with insular minuscule; the gothic scripts are quite difficult for me.
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)I wouldn't say I'm awesome at it, but I have made some that I gave as a gifts and the receivers seemed to like them. LOL. I also took in interest in learning how to cut quills, make period ink, and even period paints (except were the pigments are hazardous, such as the lead used for white paints).
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I looked into parchment, but from what I've seen it seems quite expensive. I'd need to practice quite a bit more before being able to justify the cost.
Also, I'd want to give illumination a shot. A completely separate skillset, I know, but it appears dedicated illuminators are hard to come by these days...
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)Dick Blick used to sell parchment scraps. Maybe they still do? I bought a pack to practive on before I risked the expensive stuff. Also it comes in different grades.
I did illumination, but am no all that good at it, honestly. I did used some projection techniques to copy a few elements.
TxGuitar
(4,190 posts)About this would have trouble reading cursive from the early 1900s, not much more than 100 years ago.
And who the frack actually cares? Im 55 and honestly cant remember the last time I wrote something in cursive for someone else to read. My handwriting is too bad for that so I print when someone needs to read what I wrote.
I suspect thus poutrage comes from the same folks who learn their history from statues.
Clearly everyone needs something to be all up in arms about.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)But yeah, I've made this point a couple of times already. Scripts come in and out of fashion. There's no more reason to catastrophize the loss of cursive than there is Roman Half-Uncial.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)We've moved on from that, too.
wnylib
(21,430 posts)I thought it was mainly used by telegraph operators and people in the military.
When you got a telegram, was is in cursive?
wnylib
(21,430 posts)Morse code was never in common use by everyone so falling into disuse was no big deal.
madaboutharry
(40,207 posts)First, I love cursive. I even practice in workbooks. I know, nerdy.
Second, I read somewhere that if you address an envelope in cursive that it can take 2 to 3 days longer to arrive because not every sorter at a central post office can read it. Sometimes it is put aside for the workers there who know how to read cursive.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)And all this time I thought mail was delivered by address.
madaboutharry
(40,207 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)especially if they are written in cursive. So it takes extra time for a human being to read the envelope and sort it correctly.
JT45242
(2,262 posts)I didn't read the stone tablets with no spaces between words when I took latin
You didn't read hand copies of Shakespeare, you read typed up ones that were mass-produced.
Plus there is software that scans and concerts to standard print. Somebody might double check it. But, this is the way things go.
Gore1FL
(21,127 posts)I'm pretty sure the people that need to master it will be able to.
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)And this one is easier than most. I learend cursive in the second grade. No need to waste time on a skill most don't need.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Teens and adults who want to read old documents, or write in cursive for whatever reason, won't buy a $10 book and learn to read and write cursive on their own. It just can't be done!
These threads have convinced me that there's a large number of people who left school and never learned anything ever again.
betsuni
(25,462 posts)to take classes, pay for it. Used to be that if you wanted to be a chef you learned on the job, now it's go to an expensive cooking school. Want to be a writer? You wrote. Now it's pay for a creative writing grad school degree. Have to get an MBA. Film school. A lot of things seem to be like that.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Colleges, universities, technical schools and vocational schools have been around for a long time. They didn't just suddenly spring up in recent years because "younger people these days think the only way to learn things is to take classes".
In my own family, my grandfather and his brother took the plumbing course at Wentworth Institute in Boston in the 1920's, after they graduated from high school. Their father was a master plumber and they worked for him, but he considered that schooling to be valuable enough that he sent them there and paid for them to go. My mother went to school to learn accounting in the 1960's, and my father took classes in electronics whenever he could fit them around his work schedule.
betsuni
(25,462 posts)KS Toronado
(17,198 posts)in class for my cursive. That same year my dad opened a business and required all work orders
to be printed, probably because of his sloppy cursive. Before I knew it I was printing more at my
dad's shop than I was writing at school or homework.
As a freshman in high school I was the only one printing in my class, one teacher even asked me
if I knew how to write (thinking I was stupid I believe) informed him of my history and dad's
requirements at the shop and just got out of the habit, now printing felt faster and easier to me.
He said that was fine, whatever I was comfortable with but suggested I slow down just a
little bit when printing because it looked like a hybrid between the 2.
Slowed down for awhile in his class but went back to "speed printing"
And today I'm a graduate of Oxford.
scarletlib
(3,411 posts)raccoon
(31,110 posts)And in my school, and probably none of them in those days,There were no accommodations at all. I had to write in a right-handed desk and you probably did too.
electric_blue68
(14,870 posts)I explained it to the right handers.
I can draw for hours bc I'm not usually using a pushing motion like we do writing.
Writing my hand is tired after 2 sides, sometimes one. Blah.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)I saw your message number 50 above where you explained that But I dont understand what youre saying.
Now, as I shouldve done years ago but teachers probably wouldve given me grief, I just take composition books, with the metal spiral, and start from the back.
So that the metal thingy is on the right.
electric_blue68
(14,870 posts)Seems like a right-hander holds their fingers around a 90° angle to their wrist. Then part of their hand rests on the paper as well as they write, or they hold it off the paper.
Either way - they're mostly pulling the pen across.
Left-handers if they mirror that position they're pushing the pen, and if they are keeping all, or part of their hand on the paper - depending on what they're writing with could cause a bit, to some smearing.
So I and many others curl their fingers around like the "O"
of an OK sign some curling more than others - like a hook.
This partially makes some of the motions closer to, or actually pulling the writing instrument at times. It also leave town space between instrument point and the wrist so the ink would dry in time so no smearing.
I hope this is clearer. I was doing the motions w both my right then left hand to give an accurate description vs "autopilot" thinking. 👍
.
scarletlib
(3,411 posts)If I write a letter, etc.,I always end up with ink or graphite stains on me pinkie and side of my hand.
scarletlib
(3,411 posts)Orrex
(63,201 posts)"Left-handed students, do it the same way, but first rotate your paper 170 degrees."
Ok, that's not an exact quote, but it might as well have been.
Chainfire
(17,530 posts)KS Toronado
(17,198 posts)along with my buddy Jethro Bodine. got ya
Chainfire
(17,530 posts)He thought that Latin was necessary to be well educated.
The move away from Latin and the move away from cursive are probably equivalents. In my small rural school, in the 1960s, (8th or 9the grade) we were required to take typing and bookkeeping, both of which I disliked at the time, but served me well over my lifetime. Learning to touch type is more important today than cursive. I can touch type much faster than I could ever write cursive, and when I am done, it can actually be read. In the late 60s I wrote all of my love letters to my future wife on an old Royal manual typewriter, because my cursive was so bad.
While I write in cursive poorly, I can read it...to a point. I have family journals from the 1860s that just as well be written in Greek. There are some words that I can not decipher, and can not read any of it other than word by word. My ancestor's handwriting was nice calligraphy, with a lot of extra swirls and flourishes, but I can not read as a flowing narrative.
Us old baby boomers are resistant to change just like we accused our elders of when we were young. Times change, needs change with it. What I worry about is not the form of writing that our young communicate in, but such "modern" concepts as banning classic books.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)That's "pursuit of happiness."
Well, all your s's look like f's!
johnp3907
(3,730 posts)bif
(22,697 posts)When I was in rehab, there was a high schooler who wanted to write a letter home to his parents. He had no idea how to address a letter. When I asked him what his zip code was, he had no idea what I was talking about! I was stunned to say the least.
Demovictory9
(32,448 posts)Mail very often. Most mail now is incoming packaging. Even packages to young nieces and nephews.. Now sending directly thru Amazon or target. Etc
LeftInTX
(25,247 posts)It's from 1850 in Mexico.
Mexico did not start using "forms" until very recently. (After 1930..my uncle was born there in 1925 and his civil birth registration is written out in paragraphs..ugh)
However, there are facebook groups dedicated to deciphering old documents! They have specialists in those groups.
moonshinegnomie
(2,440 posts)even when i was in college in the 80's before laptops and ipads i took notes in print.
cursive is obsolete. Id rather schools teach important subjects like math,science and personal finance rather than wasting time on cursive.
If you need to learn it for some reason (historical research for example) it should be an elective at a post high school level but other than that theres no reason to learn it.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)Classes everyday. There were alphabet cards up over the
Blackboard. We had to practice doing endless circles. Mine never looked good. I tried and tried. Never could make them look right.
I still write cursive and shorthand. It's a lot faster.
usajumpedtheshark
(672 posts)brooklynite
(94,501 posts)
and fortunately most are being digitized to re readable by anyone.
FWIW-I stopped writing in cursive 50 years ago.
Polybius
(15,381 posts)I have a hard time reading my old pen-pal letters from the 90's. I wish they were all in print (or whatever word is the opposite of cursive, it's been a while).
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)And my cursive is getting worse, not due to my age, but lack of use in our modern era.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)HOW WILL THEY INTERPRET THE PAST?
Kids aren't doing things the way we did things we were kids. How will the human race survive?!?!?!
Jesus Christ, these posts are so tiresome.
Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)48656c6c6f20
(7,638 posts)Us "hated boomers" can have a secret language and talk shit about those other whelps.
Orrex
(63,201 posts)Instead, they write in a personalized variation of cursive blended with a personalized manuscript, with the result being something sort of cursive-ish but definitely not what we wasted hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours upon in grade school.
Since graduating from high school, I have had absolutely zero reason to write in cursive beyond my signature, which as mentioned is a very customized homebrew.
Some people enjoy writing in that font, and bully for them.
brooklynite
(94,501 posts)Orrex
(63,201 posts)Goodheart
(5,321 posts)Nobody will lose an understanding of the past because all of the important stuff's been noncursivelessly printed.
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)Maybe I can understand not being able to write it, but don't most cursive letters look like print letters? This sounds like a problem with the way this generation has been taught to read. I never learned calligraphy but I can read it.
Is generation z unable to use context to figure things out? Do they have trouble with Wordle and Wheel of Fortune too? 🤔
And finally, why did common core remove cursive in the first place? Was it because teachers collectively decided that they didn't want to have to read sloppy handwriting? Lol.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)People who didn't learn cursive in school, but who want to learn to read it are able to do so on their own pretty easily.