General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRat feeding study suggests the Impossible Burger may not be safe to eat
Rats fed GM yeast-derived protein soy leghemoglobin the burgers key ingredient developed signs of toxicity. Report by Claire Robinson and Dr Michael Antoniou.
SLH is the substance that gives the burger its meaty taste and makes it appear to bleed like meat when cut. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) initially refused to sign off on the safety of SLH when first approached by the company. The rat feeding study results suggest that the agencys concerns were justified. Rats fed the GM yeast-derived SLH developed unexplained changes in weight gain, changes in the blood that can indicate the onset of inflammation or kidney disease, and possible signs of anaemia.
https://www.gmwatch.org/en/106-news/latest-news/20099-rat-feeding-study-suggests-the-impossible-burger-may-not-be-safe-to-eat
dchill
(38,444 posts)jimfields33
(15,703 posts)Food made in a laboratory might not be so good. Its a shame because I actually like them. No more of those for me.
ProfessorGAC
(64,854 posts)But, I need to see scale.
Was the study the equivalent intake of one Impossible burger a week, or 150 per day.
That was the problem with the saccharine study in the 70s.
The results showing renal damage & liver mutagenicity were based on the equivalent of a human consuming 25# of saccharine per day.
Like you, I like those burgers, so I'm going to resist an immediate reaction to this.
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)"Simple arithmetic is the beginning of wisdom."
jimfields33
(15,703 posts)I will continue to have them because I really like them. I just wont have 150 of them a day. Lol. I typically have one maybe every other week and sometimes longer. You made some very valid points.
ProfessorGAC
(64,854 posts)...came out just after I finished college & started in R&D, doing data collection and analysis for a living.
With that limited experience, I caught the scale flaws in that study in a few minutes.
I learned that lesson well.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)11 times less glyphosate in Beyond. I have a link to these tests on this thread.
Model35mech
(1,496 posts)The mathematics of the slope of disease onset was assumed to be e^(rt). Under that assumption, dose and time are dependent on each other, so if you increase the dose, you shorten the time to onset to disease.
Longitudinal studies of diseases with long lead times using animal models are notoriously expensive, and such longitudinal studies with long lived animals that could reveal toxicity after years of exposure are not usually practical.
In theory, pushing up the dose can help researchers have a study that runs for a practical short amount of time.. Which is to say it facilitates research demonstrating toxicity in a time-frame suited to a experimentation with typically relatively short-lived lab animals.
Everyone in the business was and is aware assumptions can make an ass u me. But once toxicity is demonstrated as a high dose reality the follow-on studies work to get a better handle on things that confound the assumptions employed.
ProfessorGAC
(64,854 posts)The saccharine study took those assumptions too far in as much as metabolic rate & mass transfer effects were overwhelmed by dosing.
The potential "cumulative effect" was overstated due to acute effects of ridiculously high levels.
It was a flawed experiment that got attention it didn't deserve.
Model35mech
(1,496 posts)My concern isn't the same as yours.
I think in retrospect it's easier to see that an acute effect was created rather than a chronic effect.
I also think that for average fellow citizens and denisons of DU, there really isn't ANY appreciation for the philosophy (wrong as it turned out to be) that was used to be considered a reasonable extension of what was know about dose and time, and saccharin
It wasn't an absolutely stupid approach, even though it was wrong. Assumption of a direct relationship between dose and time was common at the time the studies were run.
My concern is really not about that.
My concern is that undermining research, especially regarding early steps in research, employing the benefit of hindsight is sort of dangerous.
We've also seen that in Covid studies. The early work has little to nothing to go on. Still studies need to be done, so assumptions are accepted and efforts are made, with the researchers knowing pretty well that the initial results are built around what computer modelers and theorists call WAGs (Wild Ass Guesses). The same has been done with Climate model
The problem with saccharin studies was that their primitive results met the media far too early, while the understanding was really very very primitive.
In the end this isn't just a warning to professionals working the field, it's also an undermining by the media intent to sell SIZZLE.
And mistakes by scientists (which across science, are made everyday) are certainly Sizzle. Every freaking jounalist wants to knock a scientist out of his saddle.
Just consider what has been done to Fauci and other government public health experts and epidemiologists and I think you can appreciate the dangers of too much sizzling media too early to public confidence.
Ray Bruns
(4,079 posts)dalton99a
(81,404 posts)https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/food-nutrition/genetically-modified-foods-other-novel-foods/approved-products/soy-leghemoglobin/document.html
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)is not in the food product, yes?
We consume them a couple times a month.
Ms. Toad
(33,997 posts)That eating this part of the soy bean plant is safe. Historically, people have not eaten that part of the plant.
Later on the article it makes it clear that some of it is included in impossible burgers.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)One might consider avoiding the entirely alien organisms which were never encountered during the evolution of modern humans:
artichokes, avocados, kidney or lima beans, black walnuts, blueberries, cacao (cocoa/chocolate), cashews, cassava, chestnuts, corn (maize), crab apples, cranberries, gourds, hickory nuts, onions, papayas, peanuts, pecans, peppers (bell peppers or chili peppers), pineapples, plums, potatoes, pumpkins, raspberries, squash, strawberries, sunflowers, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, turkey, or vanilla.
None of those things were encountered by humans during the entirety of the evolution of modern humans. Even the precursors to those foods had never been eaten by anyone until humans began to inhabit the Americas.
Ms. Toad
(33,997 posts)The article referenced it in connection to whether we can rely on our history of eating it to determine whether it is appropriate for human consumption. There are certainly other ways of determining the appropriateness of eating it, and the lack of prior history means nothing about whether one can or should eat it.
The person to whom I was responding misread the historical reference as an assertion that it is not contained in Impossible Meat. I was merely clarifying that the article was not asserting that.
grumpyduck
(6,223 posts)but one of my questions would be, how much of this stuff was fed to the rats during the study?
If they developed the symptoms after only one feeding, scaled down to their size, then fine, the stuff is not safe. But how often would people eat the stuff, and how much, proportionately, would be in one or two burgers?
If I paid more attention to these studies, I would have to wonder about them.
live love laugh
(13,079 posts)kysrsoze
(6,019 posts)I found this study, which appears to be the basis of the OP article, but it appears to contradict the assertions in the article, and part of the concern in the OP article was the lack of history of this ingredient's use in food. In the actual study, changes were slight and appear to be based on a massive intake of LegH (appears to by the same substance as SLH, with a different name). I suggest reading the whole article, but the conclusion area and the excerpt below indicate no substantive risk, at least from my interpretation. Still, more study would be a great idea, IMO.
[link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5956568/|
"In this study, we evaluated the safety of LegH Prep with both in vitro and in vivo models. To evaluate potential genotoxicity of LegH Prep, a bacterial reverse mutation test (Ames test) and an in vitro chromosome aberration test were performed. These in vitro models showed that LegH Prep is neither mutagenic nor clastogenic. Systemic toxicity was evaluated by a 28-day feeding study in Sprague Dawley rats. An additional 28-day feeding study was performed to evaluate the female estrous cycle and reproductive health. These in vivo models demonstrated no adverse effects attributable to the consumption of LegH Prep at the maximum dose tested, which was more than 100 times greater than the 90th percentile estimated daily intake (EDI) in ground beef analogue products. Collectively, the results of the studies presented raise no issues of toxicological concern with regard to LegH Prep under the conditions tested."
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)The OP is also a well-known anti Covid vax, etc.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)For anyone who wonders why consumers arent inspired to trust the GMO industry, consider this bizarre rant from Impossible Foods Chief Communications Officer Rachel Konrad in defense of the Impossible Burger, a veggie burger made more meat-like via genetically engineered yeast. Konrad was upset that a story in Bloomberg raised concerns about the insufficient research, lack of regulation and poor transparency for genetically engineered food technologies.
Impossible Burgers marketing chief set the record straight with information sourced from chemical industry front groups and other unreliable messengers who regularly communicate inaccurate information.
So Konrad took to Medium, blasting critics of the Impossible Burger as anti-science fundamentalists and setting the record straight with information she sourced from chemical industry front groups and other unreliable anti-consumer messengers who regularly communicate inaccurate information about science.
Bloomberg is not a trusted source of reporting on science, according to Konrad, because the American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) says so. The ACSH is a corporate front group that solicits money from tobacco, chemical and pharmaceutical companies to defend pesticides, e-cigs, cosmetics and other toxic products that arent likely to win over the vegan crowd.
https://usrtk.org/tag/impossible-burger/
zuul
(14,624 posts)I might have a stroke if I ate these burgers on a regular basis.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)and according to lab tests - less glyphosate in Beyond Burger than Impossible Burger
We are shocked to find that the Impossible Burger can have up to 11X higher levels of glyphosate residues than the Beyond Meat Burger according to these samples tested.
https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/gmo_impossible_burger_positive_for_carcinogenic_glyphosate
Amishman
(5,554 posts)Many of the newer meat substitutes have a soapy aftertaste I can't get past.
Response to womanofthehills (Original post)
kysrsoze This message was self-deleted by its author.
MiHale
(9,664 posts)One bite was all it took, my dog didnt eat it either.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)?????
I had no idea it was supposed to do that. I haven't tried it and haven't had a desire even though I've been a vegetarian for 30 years.
I understand wanting to appeal to meat eaters but, good grief, if "appearing to bleed like meat" is a requirement vs merely taste and texture to appeal to various taste buds...I find that very disturbing.
I remember being so excited back in the day when Morningstar Farms started making soy meat substitutes more readily available, until you look at the ingredients. In the quest to taste like meat, I'm not sure how much healthier it really is, for the body or the environment.
I wish those of us inclined to eat plant based, solely or periodically, could be happy with quinoa black bean burgers or similar...lol.
ProfessorGAC
(64,854 posts)The particular source of this soy product comes from a part of the plant that contains phospholipids that are very red.
These compounds thermally split (upon cooking) to phosphoesters that have a low viscosity. So, they become juices.
Then, these can further oxidize and limited cyclization takes place, turning the red darker, having the appearance of the juices of cooked meats.
Hekate
(90,560 posts)
I expect hot, flavorful, juices to spurt into my mouth not blood. Juicy is the term. Just like that stuff you pour over your mashed potatoes is gravy, not blood.
That said, I have to restrict my intake of InNOut burgers because of their observed impact on my cholesterol.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Tommy Carcetti
(43,155 posts)Not writing it off, but the source sucks.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)For anyone who wonders why consumers arent inspired to trust the GMO industry, consider this bizarre rant from Impossible Foods Chief Communications Officer Rachel Konrad in defense of the Impossible Burger, a veggie burger made more meat-like via genetically engineered yeast. Konrad was upset that a story in Bloomberg raised concerns about the insufficient research, lack of regulation and poor transparency for genetically engineered food technologies.
https://usrtk.org/tag/impossible-burger/
GMO Impossible Burger Positive for Carcinogenic Glyphosate
Posted by Zen Honeycutt 4844.40GS on May 16, 2019
GMO Impossible Burger Tests 11X Higher for Glyphosate Weed Killer Residue than Beyond Meat Burger
https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/gmo_impossible_burger_positive_for_carcinogenic_glyphosate
(Moms Across America uses top labs to test products for glyphosate)
Lets see - would I rather eat a grass finished burger or an Impossible Burger? - ingredients on package
The actual ingredient list itself is as follows: YUM YUM
Tommy Carcetti
(43,155 posts)And yes, I consider myself to be a very strong environmentalist.
(Not saying they are a bad organization. Just saying I've never heard of them.)
I do think the GMO issue has been prone to hysteria so I take news about it from questionable sources with the proverbial grain of salt.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)So you think thousands of glyphosate lawsuits are hysteria. Where there is GMO soy, there is glyphosate. From Forbes:
Monsanto has settled over 100,000 Roundup lawsuits, paying out about $11 billion as of May 2022. There are still 30,000 lawsuits pending. This includes 4,000 cases in multidistrict litigation (MDL) in California. MDL cases are not class-action suits. Instead they group cases together so that instead of answering the same question repeatedly in each separate lawsuit, the courts can resolve some specific issues for all of them at once.
In June 2022, the Ninth Circuit filed a decision in a Roundup case. In the courts opinion, the Ninth Circuit urged the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to reconsider its conclusion that Roundup does not cause substantial harm to people or the environment. Also in that month, the Supreme Court dismissed an appeal by Bayer in another Roundup case.
In July 2022, the 11th Circuit ruled that Bayer had failed to adequately warn about the risk of cancer from Roundup.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/product-liability/roundup-lawsuit-update/
NickB79
(19,224 posts)After all, Johnson and Johnson was ordered to pay $2 billion over lawsuits alleging their talcum powder caused ovarian cancer.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/inside-jjs-secret-plan-cap-litigation-payouts-cancer-victims-2022-02-04/
The largest study to date has found zero evidence that talcum powder causes ovarian cancer.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2758452
The absolute worst case I've ever seen of courts not understanding science, though, was the one from Italy, where a court convicted several scientists of manslaughter and sent them to prison, because they didn't predict a massive earthquake that killed 300.
There is literally no way to predict such a thing with any accuracy, however.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/italian-scientists-get/
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)LAUNCESTON, AUSTRALIA As the United States was succumbing to an epidemic of addiction, the Johnson & Johnson family of companies became the leading maker of narcotics for popular opioid pills, a dominance achieved through decades of innovation, navigation of U.S. drug policy, and the cultivation of poppies in this remote haven on the other side of the world.
Johnson & Johnsons supply chain began in Tasmania, an island 150 miles south of mainland Australia, where scientists in the mid-1990s altered the genetics of thousands of plants to engineer a super poppy that was particularly rich in opiates.
Tasmanian farmers grew the novel plants, enticed by flashy incentive prizes a Mercedes, a Jaguar, a BMW that a Johnson & Johnson subsidiary awarded for growing the best crop.
The poppies were then exported to the United States where another Johnson & Johnson subsidiary refined them into oxycodone and hydrocodone, and the narcotics were shipped as white crystalline powders to the nations pillmakers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/business/opioid-crisis-johnson-and-johnson-tasmania-poppy/
AND - by the way, Johnson & Johnson was ordered to pay billions because their emails showed they knew asbestos was in their talcum powder years ago!!
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)was I able to find credible information on this topic on a short search. You've likely spent more time on this topic, so it'd be very helpful if you would post science-supported information from a respected source.
Btw, my search turned up an entire first screen of GMWatch posts, a tactic often used to push other search results out of sight. Except for the Media Bias Watch evaluation of gmwatch.org, which my Google search on gmwatch.org produced as #1. But I did check another 3 or 4 screens or so and searched on rats, etc, and found confirmation only of the factcheck results.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)The rest of the story:
Background:
Health Canada has notified Impossible Foods, Inc. (California, U.S.) that it has no objection to the use of soy leghemoglobin (LegH) preparation as an ingredient in a simulated meat product (i.e., the Impossible Burger) and other ground beef analogues. The Department conducted a comprehensive assessment of this ingredient according to its Guidelines for the Safety Assessment of Novel Foods. These Guidelines are based upon internationally accepted principles for establishing the safety of foods with novel traits.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)We are shocked to find that the Impossible Burger can have up to 11X higher levels of glyphosate residues than the Beyond Meat Burger according to these samples tested. - from lab tests paid for by Moms Across American
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)And definitely personal choice.
Requires more research.
I am careful about what I put into my body, and appreciate the heads up. I do find it impossible to avoid all harmful substances, and do my best to mitigate, limit exposure, and know what I am eating.
We farm (garden, fruit trees, laying hens) organically. I buy only organic veggies and meats - most meat is from local farmers.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)I have 9 laying hens and a roo. I garden organically and buy local grass finished beef and organic chicken.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)essentially everything we bring into the house.
I guess I feel like I have a little wiggle room. We prefer Impossibles to Beyonds, but only have them once maybe twice a month. Same with ground beef from local farmer. Mostly we are eating farm-raised pork and lamb from our neighbors, right now. Young back-to-the-landers, just like we were!
(I also make my own keifer from organic whole milk!)
Thanks for the info, woman!
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Ranch raised local meat (cows grazed a half mile from my place) and I am big time into fermented foods. I also make kefir with organic milk and usually my breakfast consists of a kefir smoothie- kefir + raw egg yokes from my hens + frozen fruit. Our community gets together and places large orders of organic Colorado peaches - so I have a freezer filled with sliced peaches. Im also big into kombucha and always have that going along with home made sauerkraut and I always have sourdough starter going.
Having been very chemically sensitive yrs ago, I only use non toxic, non scented products.
Duppers
(28,117 posts)Novara
(5,821 posts)How much were they fed and for how long?
Was their diet EXCLUSIVELY this stuff or did they ingest other things as well?
Did they eat a concentrated amount compared to a human eating one burger? i.e. what was the percentage of chemical/body weight?
What form was it given? How much?
All of these are important to determine if the study is applicable to human consumption.
Once again, media going for the sensationalism.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Who would not LOVE to eat this:
Water, Soy Protein Concentrate, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, 2% Or Less Of: Potato Protein, Methylcellulose, Yeast Extract, Cultured Dextrose, Food Starch Modified, Soy Leghemoglobin, Salt, Mixed Tocopherols (Antioxidant), Soy Protein Isolate, Vitamins and Minerals (Zinc Gluconate, Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12).
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Detailed Report
Bias Rating: LEFT CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: United Kingdom
Press Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Organization/Foundation
Traffic/Popularity: Minimal Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY
History
Founded in 1998 by Jonathan Matthews, who is affiliated with Maharishi International University, a part of the transcendental meditation (TM) movement that some have called a cult. According to their about page, GMWatch provides the public with ..." Put another way, GMWatch is a news and information hub for Anti-GMO propagandists. ...
Analysis / Bias
In review, GMWatchs stated goal is to eliminate all genetically modified crops and foods and slow down the progress of biotechnology and advanced genetic research. It does this through the publication of news regarding GMOs and Biotech that is consistently negative ...
The website also promotes the debunked 2012 study ... The study used cancer-prone rats, shoddy controls, and the data cherry-picked (e.g. data showed some rats fed glyphosate had few tumors, which the authors did not highlight in their commentary).
Although numerous positive studies support the benefits and minimal risks of GMOs, GMWatch never publishes them, leading to a highly misleading and biased website.
Failed Fact Checks
The EU Commission is beginning the process of removing safety checks on genetically modified crops. Fake ...
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/gmwatch/
There are other evaluations with similar results. One college cites a GMWatch lie in a lesson about fack checking.
Can someone find and post a REPUTABLE report on this claim? All I found is the kind of stuff that turns vulnerable social media soakers into Qnuts.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)"Overall, we rate GMWatch as a moderate conspiracy website and quackery-level pseudoscience source based on the consistent promotion of anti-GMO propaganda that does not align with the consensus of science.
Founded in 1998 by Jonathan Matthews, who is affiliated with Maharishi International University, a part of the transcendental meditation (TM) movement that some have called a cult. According to their about page, GMWatch provides the public with the latest news and comment on genetically modified (GMO) foods and crops and their associated pesticides. They further state that they seek to counter the enormous corporate political power and propaganda of the GMO industry and its supporters. Put another way, GMWatch is a news and information hub for Anti-GMO propagandists.
In review, GMWatchs stated goal is to eliminate all genetically modified crops and foods and slow down the progress of biotechnology and advanced genetic research. It does this through the publication of news regarding GMOs and Biotech that is consistently negative: New GM techniques and their products pose risks that must be assessed scientists and this Why are we being fed by a poison expert?
The website also promotes the debunked 2012 study by Gilles-Éric Séralini, which was retracted from the Food and Chemical Toxicology Journal the following year after a detailed review following criticism from scientists and regulatory bodies, which found a pattern of bias and design flaws. The study used cancer-prone rats, shoddy controls, and the data cherry-picked (e.g. data showed some rats fed glyphosate had few tumors, which the authors did not highlight in their commentary).
Although numerous positive studies support the benefits and minimal risks of GMOs, GMWatch never publishes them, leading to a highly misleading and biased website.
The EU Commission is beginning the process of removing safety checks on genetically modified crops. Fake
Overall, we rate GMWatch as a moderate conspiracy website and quackery-level pseudoscience source based on the consistent promotion of anti-GMO propaganda that does not align with the consensus of science. (D. Van Zandt 11/24/2019) Updated (09/07/2022)."
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/gmwatch/
*******************************
So, they are a fake propo woo site funded by TM.
So, maybe self delete this.
Meat analogs, just like actual burgers, are fine in moderation.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Stand up for Monsanto all you want, but we have seen all the cancer lawsuits won against glyphosate and it appears Dr. Seralini was right about cancer and glyphosate.
GMO Impossible Burger Positive for Carcinogenic Glyphosate
Posted by Zen Honeycutt 4844.40GS on May 16, 2019
GMO Impossible Burger Tests 11X Higher for Glyphosate Weed Killer Residue than Beyond Meat Burger
A Monsanto trial jury awarded the plaintiffs over $2 billion dollars, for the connection between the glyphosate-based herbicide, Roundup, and their cancer. Today, Moms Across America announces that the Impossible Burger* tested positive for glyphosate. The levels of glyphosate detected in the Impossible burger by Health Research Institute Laboratories were 11 X higher than the Beyond Meat Burger. The total result (glyphosate and its break down AMPA) was 11.3 ppb. Moms Across America also tested the Beyond Meat Burger and the results were 1 ppb.
We are shocked to find that the Impossible Burger can have up to 11X higher levels of glyphosate residues than the Beyond Meat Burger according to these samples tested. This new product is being marketed as a solution for healthy eating, when in fact 11 ppb of glyphosate herbicide consumption can be highly dangerous. Only 0.1 ppb of glyphosate has been shown to alter the gene function of over 4000 genes in the livers, kidneys and cause severe organ damage in rats.**** I am gravely concerned that consumers are being misled to believe the Impossible Burger is healthy. stated Zen Honeycutt, Executive Director of Moms Across America.
Brenda
(1,032 posts)with soy in general...phytoestrogens, etc. But there seems to be a lot of pro-pharma and pro-big ag people here.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)Brenda
(1,032 posts)There are many mainstream studies about the problems with soy so please stop attacking people here of spreading disinformation or quackery or whatever other abusive language you continue using.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Thomas Bøhn1,* and Erik Millstone2
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
Go to:
Abstract
Glyphosate-tolerant (GT) soybeans dominate the world soybean market. These plants have triggered increased use of, as well as increased residues of, glyphosate in soybean products. We present data that show farmers have doubled their glyphosate applications per season (from two to four) and that residues of late season spraying of glyphosate (at full bloom of the plant) result in much higher residues in the harvested plants and products. GT soybeans produced on commercial farms in the USA, Brazil and Argentina accumulate in total an estimated 250010,000 metric tonnes of glyphosate per year, which enter global food chains. We also review studies that have compared the quality of GT soybeans with conventional and organic soybeans. Feeding studies in Daphnia magna have shown dose-related adverse effects (mortality, reduced fecundity and delayed reproduction) of glyphosate residues in soybeans, even at glyphosate concentrations below allowed residue levels. We argue that GT soybeans need to be tested in fully representative and realistic contexts. However, the current risk assessment system has only required and received data from field trials with beans that were sprayed with much lower doses of glyphosate as compared to contemporary commercial farms. This has left knowledge gaps and a potentially serious underestimation of health risks to consumers.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963490/
billh58
(6,635 posts)https://www.soyconnection.com/resources/health-nutrition-newsletter/newsletter-article-list/soy-leghemoglobin
From the US Soy organization, and well-referenced.
renate
(13,776 posts)I love both Impossible Burgers and Beyond Burgers. After 30 years without a hamburger, I still remember having my first Impossible Burger at a Carl's Jr several years ago... it was heaven. (I love the taste of meat, I just don't eat it.)
So I really appreciate your finding this. I'd miss fake burgers so much.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Many nutritionists now saying grass fed/grass finished beef is a good choice nutritionally. I just had some local grass finished sirloin tip steak - probably best meat I ever ate in my life.
Big Blue Marble
(5,056 posts)They are living beings, too.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)I mix it up!
In fact, here is an article from WAPO on gut biome that says a varied diet of real food is optimal.
My hubby and I stay very healthy, esp. for late 60s-year olds. We are even covid virgins!
Let's play nice here, everyone, 'kay?
https://wapo.st/3f44yFK (gifted - no paywall)
The best foods to feed your gut microbiome
The microbes in your gut can influence mental health, heart risk, weight gain and even sleep, which is why you need to eat a wider variety of quality food
Every time you eat, you are feeding trillions of bacteria, viruses and fungi that live inside your gut. But are you feeding them the right foods?
Scientists used to know very little about these communities of microbes that collectively make up the gut microbiota, also known as your gut microbiome. But a growing body of research suggests that these vast communities of microbes are the gateway to your health and well-being and that one of the simplest and most powerful ways to shape and nurture them is through your diet.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)So, glyphosate wise, its way better to eat Beyond Burger than Impossible Burger
2010: Glyphosate was patented in the U.S. by Monsanto as an antibiotic. Definitely not good for gut
microbiota.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)It is also sold in the EU, which has much tighter food safety rules than the US.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)I avoid them at all costs.
Response to SheltieLover (Reply #20)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Response to SheltieLover (Reply #28)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)I know you won't have one, but how about giving us one.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)You are claiming that any and all GMOs are something "Our bodies don't know how to process".
Why should that be accepted as true, free of evidence derived from tests with a very broad variety of GMO foods?
Your claim makes no sense because every GMO is an individual case with no automatically common chemical or biological traits. There is no commonality for the body to react to, for good or bad.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)I mean, no harm in avoiding them, of course, but that's simply not a factual statement.
The reality is, in the vast majority of cases, your body doesn't know the difference, nor react differently whatsoever. SOOOO much of what we eat is 'genetically modified', most of it dating back hundreds of years ... through selective breeding. You may think that's inherently different from what we call GMO, but it's actually very, very similar.
No offense SL, but that idea is woo
Big Blue Marble
(5,056 posts)"our bodies do not know the difference, nor react differently" across all GMO foods.
Thank you.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)The claim made in the post I responded to was universal in nature. The assertion was that our bodies 'don't know to process' GMO foods.
I.E. ANY GMO foods in the logical reading of the assertion.
Leaving aside the fact that 'our bodies don't know how to process XYZ' ... is an inherently unscientific statement (our digestive system doesn't 'know' jack shit, only our brains do, and 'process' is an inherently nebulous term on top of it), I was never asserting it reacts in that same way across ALL GMO foods.
I'm saying that, as a universal statement, 'our bodies don't know how to process GMO' is wrong, and I'm asserting that in the majority of cases (and unstated but implied, "in terms of what's actually on the market now" ) ... our bodies don't know the difference between GMO and non-GMO.
However I never made the claim ""our bodies do not know the difference, nor react differently" across all GMO foods.
In fact, there may come a day when something GMO turns out to be provably harmful. I'd absolutely stipulate to that being a possibility, maybe even something that's currently on the market.
Not a bad idea to avoid them, but the UNIVERSAL statement I replied to was incorrect.
Big Blue Marble
(5,056 posts)Undoubtably, there are unknown inherent risks in this aspect of gene splicing. We are experimenting
on ourselves. Gene splicing is not the same as much older process of gene selection.
It is almost impossible to avoid GMO's, but as you state "not a bad idea to avoid them when possible.
This one issue that is of concern.
Risks to the soil microbiome:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16440278/
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)that I'd rather avoid"
Versus
I avoid ALL of them because 'our bodies don't know how to process them'.
The former is logical and if that had been the post, I wouldn't have said a word. The latter is woo.
Also ... "Gene splicing is not the same as much older process of gene selection." may be technically true, it's a distinction w/o difference in a great many cases.
Our bodies don't intrinsically know the difference between a mutation that occurred naturally and was propagated through selective breeding vs. one introduced by gene splicing.
It's just wrong to suggest that they do, esp. in a universal manner as in the post I responded to.
Its not like 'nature' is out there going 'you know, when I create mutations, it's going to be for the BENEFIT of the health of humans, I'll make sure of that!'.
Just because some process is 'older' or some mutation is 'natural' doesn't mean it's benign/beneficial to us. Nature doesn't work that way.
A LOT of 'GMO' tweaks are to do things like thicken the bark of the apple tree so it's better resistant to pests, or make the apple tree's roots branch out more, making the tree more drought-resistant.
In the latter case, in reality the goal is that the only difference in the apple is that it took 4000 gallons of water to produce IDENTICAL apples instead of 5000 gallons (or whatever numbers, you get the point), cause there was deeper roots, for example.
To claim our bodies 'don't know to process the apples' from the 4000 gallon tree, but do with the 5000 gallon tree? That's the kind of thing implied by the post I responded to, and it's bullshit
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)I don't eat that stuff anymore than I would ingest margerine, for reasons stated.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)Accidentally responded to the wrong poster.
Big Blue Marble
(5,056 posts)I never claimed that "Our bodies don't know how to process". I only requested data on
the safety of GMO's. Please re-read my post. I make no claims. IMO, we just do not
know what, if any, the dangers of GMO's are. As with most advancement in science, I
am assuming there will both positive and negative impacts. I do know that most of the
science is driven by commerce and not necessarily for the benefit of our health.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)I moved the message to the correct place. Thanks for catching the error.
As an aside, I'm perfectly willing to consider that some particular GMOs might turn out to be harmful, but that the probability is very low, especially if you're simply making one organism product a substance that's already well-tolerated by humans from another source. The main risk is unintended side effects, where a gene does more or different things in a new cellular environment than it did in its original environment.
While the precautionary principle is sensible (we haven't done this much before, so be careful!) is sensible, I think most GMO fears go well beyond that. It's an irrational fear of that "unnaturalness", in and of itself, is a thing that our bodies will detect and react badly to.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Do you know that prior to the arrival of aborigines in Australia - long after modern humans evolved - NO ONE had ever eaten a kangaroo?
How did our bodies learn to process an organism, the entire genome of which had never been encountered by the human digestive system?
Prior to the arrival of humans in the Americas probably not more than 20,000 years ago, no humans had eaten:
artichokes, avocados, kidney or lima beans, black walnuts, blueberries, cacao (cocoa/chocolate), cashews, cassava, chestnuts, corn (maize), crab apples, cranberries, gourds, hickory nuts, onions, papayas, peanuts, pecans, peppers (bell peppers or chili peppers), pineapples, plums, potatoes, pumpkins, raspberries, squash, strawberries, sunflowers, sweet potatoes, tobacco, tomatoes, turkey, or vanilla.
And we're not even talking about "genetically modified organisms" here. We are talking about ENTIRELY ALIEN ORGANISMS which weren't even based on things humans had ever eaten before.
So, if you want to eat a diet that is compatible with "what humans evolved to eat", you need to eliminate those foods from your diet, since it is not natural for humans to eat them.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,907 posts)What about honeycrisp apples? You only eat heirloom tomatoes?
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)...but now all of my new neighbors are notified by the state every time I move.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Unless you're eating a raw food diet at this point I'm not exactly sure what is safe to eat anymore.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)I try to avoid all processed foods. I eat lots of organic beef and chicken and fresh organic vegetables and fruits. I have chickens that I feed organically for eggs and make my own organic sourdough bread. Plus, I'm into making fermented foods - kombuca, sauerkraut and kefir.
Sympthsical
(9,040 posts)Pseudo-scientific woo site.
I love how the article couches around various things and puts a lot of argumentative weight on, "We're just asking questions!"
The GMO stuff is screamingly anti-science. It should be relegated to conspiracy theory.
Funnily enough, I just finished up the CRISPR-Cas9 portion of my microbiology class. Interesting stuff, as actual science often is.
And of course, woo would not be woo if it didn't blanket claim "Toxicity!" They love that word.
I'd get into the whole mess further, but I've penciled in health advice from Gwyneth Paltrow this morning.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)It's easy to do when you're a multi-millionaire who sporadically works and has access to her own gym, trainers, the best plastic surgeons and stylists.
Having said that, it's good advice for women. I find myself with one foot in and one foot out of that camp.
Response to womanofthehills (Original post)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)About GMWatch
GMWatch provides the public with the latest news and comment on genetically modified (GMO) foods and crops and their associated pesticides.
GMWatch is an independent organisation that seeks to counter the enormous corporate political power and propaganda of the GMO industry and its supporters. It does this through its website, email lists, Powerbase portal, LobbyWatch, social media (Twitter and Facebook), and other outreach and campaigning activities. GMWatch was founded in 1998 by Jonathan Matthews and its directors and managing editors are Jonathan Matthews and Claire Robinson.
GMWatch gratefully acknowledges donations from individual supporters as well as NGOs, charitable foundations, and trusts. In 2011 institutional funders included Friends of the Earth Europe, Friends of the Earth UK, the Soil Association, and the Courtyard Trust. Between July 2011 and May 2012 a GMWatch editor received payment from the Institute of Responsible Technology (IRT) for editorial support to the IRT's newsletters. In 2012 and 2013 GMWatch received funding from Friends of the Earth Europe, the Isvara Foundation and the Courtyard Trust. In 2014 GMWatch received funding from the Isvara Foundation, Food Democracy Now!, and the Sheepdrove Trust. In 20152018 GMWatch received funding from Friends of the Earth Europe, the Sheepdrove Trust and the JMG Foundation. In 2019 and 2020 GMWatch received funding from the Sheepdrove Trust. In 2021 GMWatch received funding from the Sheepdrove Trust, the Blue Moon Trust and the TOP Fund. In 2022 GMWatch received funding from the TOP Fund, Corporate Europe Observatory and the Blue Moon Trust.
GMWatch is also supported by the work of dedicated volunteers in different countries around the world.
GMWatch Ltd is a not for profit private company limited by guarantee, registered no. 13348994. Our registered address is: GMWatch Ltd · 99 Brentwood Road · Brighton, Sussex BN1 7ET, UK. https://www.gmwatch.org/en/about
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)This is hysterical.
Response to womanofthehills (Original post)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)I have no idea why this is allowed.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Have you read the news of all the large glyphosate cancer settlements? ` and you want a site that reports the news on cancer lawsuits and glyphosate not to be discussed on DU.
There was a legal battle over Impossible burger
Impossible Foods shared its own data with a food safety panel of experts from several universities for review and then conducted rat feeding studies to address questions from the FDA. We have no questions at this time regarding Impossible Foods conclusion that soy leghemoglobin preparation is [generally recognized as safe] under its intended conditions of use to optimize flavor in ground beef analogue products intended to be cooked, the FDA concluded in 2018.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)Silent3
(15,148 posts)Where does that come into this?
You do know that GMO and glyphosate are not inextricably linked, don't you? That genetically-induced glyphosate tolerance is just one (albeit popular) type of GMO? And that the even that GMO doesn't cause glyphosate to be produced?
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Soybeans are the second-largest US crop after corn, covering about a quarter of American farmland. We grow more soybeans than any other country except Brazil. According to the US Department of Agriculture, more than 90 percent of the soybeans churned out on US farms each year are genetically engineered to withstand herbicides, nearly all of them involving one called Roundup. Organic production, by contrast, is marginalit accounts for less than 1 percent of total American acreage devoted to soy. (The remaining 9 percent or so of soybeans are conventionally grown, but not genetically modified.)
https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/04/superweeds-arent-only-trouble-gmo-soy/
Silent3
(15,148 posts)Yeast are producing the substance being discussed here, not soybean plants. The yeast are merely producing a protein found in soybeans.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Whats Actually in an Impossible Burger?
Ripped from the company website, heres the ingredients list:
Water, Soy Protein Concentrate, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Potato Protein, Methylcellulose, Yeast Extract, Cultured Dextrose, Food Starch Modified, Soy Leghemoglobin, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Zinc Gluconate, Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Sodium Ascorbate (Vitamin C), Niacin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12.
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #38)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
womanofthehills
(8,661 posts)Beyond Meat Inc. late Tuesday said it suspended Chief Operating Officer Doug Ramsey, who was arrested over the weekend and charged after allegedly biting a mans nose during an altercation in Arkansas.
Jonathan Nelson, senior vice president of manufacturing operations, will oversee operational activities on an interim basis, Beyond Meat BYND, +2.89% said in a brief statement.
Shares of Beyond Meat edged higher in the extended session Tuesday, after ending the regular trading session at a record low. The stock is down some 75% year to date, as the maker of plant-based burgers and sausages faces broader difficulties surrounding inflation and competition. By comparison, the S&P 500 index SPX, -1.72% is down 19% so far this year.
Ramsey was arrested Saturday night and charged with third-degree battery and terroristic threatening. According to television station KNWA in Fayetteville, Ark., the altercation occurred in a parking garage close to the University of Arkansas Razorback Stadium, following a college football game between the university and Missouri State.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/beyond-meat-stock-hits-all-time-low-as-company-executive-arrested-in-nose-biting-incident-11663699174
central scrutinizer
(11,637 posts)I never had any interest in fake meat. You can get the umami hit with miso or other fermented foods.
Response to central scrutinizer (Reply #40)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)we need a moderator here...
Such divergent yet self-assured positions...
MineralMan
(146,256 posts)is supposedly bad for you? But, people who don't eat meat want something that looks and tastes like meat?
I don't eat impossible burgers, because I sometimes eat meat. So, if I crave a burger, I get one made of beef. I don't want an engineered substitute that looks and tastes like meat. I don't have to eat that, so I eat a regular burger if I want a burger.
If I have vegetarian or vegan guests for a meal, I make food they are happy to eat. I don't make something that looks and tastes like meat. Why would I do that? I can make perfectly delightful food that is honestly vegan or vegetarian in nature. I won't be making anything called any sort of "burger," because a burger is made of meat.
I simply do not get it. Some people who eschew meat apparently want their dietary-restricted "burger" to leak red juice that looks like blood. Why? That makes no sense whatsoever.
I'll be happy to cook for anyone who has dietary rules they follow. But, I refuse to make anything that pretends to be something else. That's dishonest, no matter how you look at it. I'll make something very very good, within the parameters of my guest's diet.
Response to MineralMan (Reply #84)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to MineralMan (Reply #84)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,256 posts)Not telling you what to do or not do.
Response to MineralMan (Reply #103)
NoRethugFriends This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,256 posts)I don't know. I post, you decide.
BornADemocrat
(8,166 posts)I love grilled burgers, but I rarely eat them due to my gout.
I don't have to worry about that with the impossible burger.
Do you get that?
hunter
(38,303 posts)If I was Emperor of the Earth (be glad I'm not...) those are among the first industries I'd shut down. Dairy products and beef would be expensive because it would all come from cows and cattle raised on meticulously managed grass covered hillsides.
I'm also lazy. I'm not going to cook separate meals for everyone based on their dietary preferences every day of the week. About half the people in my extended family are vegetarian or vegan so I'll try to find some common ground of acceptability in my daily cooking. I will go the extra mile on holidays and other special occasions.
I don't buy cheap ground beef. I don't buy pork or tuna. Mostly I'm trying to reduce my environmental footprint.
There's always a pound or two of "Beyond Beef" in my refrigerator. It's a handy substitute for ground beef in the traditional recipes of my family and my wife's family.
Our local McDonalds also sells Beyond Beef hamburgers. I look forward to the day when the most popular burgers at fast food places are not made of meat and lands currently devoted to growing animal feed for the factory farm meat and dairy industries can be rewilded.
Those are, of course, my personal opinions, and do not reflect any official platforms of the Democratic Party.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)I cant stand fast food anyway, but Im sure not eating some chemical concoction theyve created to make people think theyre eating meat. Yurg.
MineralMan
(146,256 posts)food that pretends to be other food. I'm not sure why, really.
For me, the thing is that all foods are worthwhile, if prepared appropriately for what they are. Whenever you try to make them look or taste like something else, though, you're sure to fail.
Oddly, some of those who reject my skepticism about highly processed foods like Impossible Burgers are also vehemently opposed to GMO foods. Again, that makes no sense, if you are defending foods concocted in some laboratory to pretend to be something they are not. That seems to me to be the epitome of contradiction.
But there it is, I guess...
rownesheck
(2,343 posts)had a hand in the study or reporting of it. Remember what they tried to do to Oprah for suggesting we eat less beef.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)I can not tolerate any of it in any form now. I dont take any grains or starchy veggies anymore for the most part.
Lancero
(3,002 posts)But this doesn't mean that it's inherently dangerous.
Emile
(22,494 posts)Not for me anyways.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)I haven't eaten real meat in over 10 years and this tasted bloodier than I remembered.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/gmwatch/
This is from a longer post on the Media Bias factcheck above.
DU's not supposed to be part of the social media funnel to Qnuttery. Is there a reputable source reporting this? Is there a reputable, peer-reviewed study on this, and what does it report?