The price of Florida's unregulated and ill-planned growth: 2.6 million septic tanks

[303squadron]

Open up a sub division outside city limits. Reduce the cost of each house by not providing sewer hook ups which are very pricey. Instead, put in a septic tank.

Do you know what happens when a septic tank is flooded by storm surge for hours at a time?????

[Captain Zero]

1. I've got a few ideas, but lay it on me...

any links??

[eShirl]

2. Imagine the opposite of flushing.

[certainot]

5. leach field? water pressure pushes it all back up through the toilets? fucking republicans. no regul

action! develop it all!!!

it's the fucking republicans again.

[Chainfire]

23. Septic tanks do push water back into a toilet, unless the toilet is lower than the septic tank.

It is basic physics.

As a master plumber, I can tell you that it is one of the four basics laws of plumbing: (#2 below)

*Hot on the left, cold on the right
* Shit don't run uphill
* Payday is on Friday
* The boss is a SOB



That said, when the tank is under water, the flush has nowhere to go and will remain where it is.

Septic tanks are no different than sewage treatment facilities, when either go underwater, they fail to function. When a treatment facility goes underwater a major environmental problem is created. Without septic tanks people in rural areas would have to depend on outhouses. Now that is something that is a hazard to the environment. I live in a rural area, I have a septic tank and a well for my water. I wish I had a municipal water supply and sewage disposal system.

[A HERETIC I AM]

33. How dare you....

bring professional expertise into an emotional argument?!?

[Chainfire]

35. Is it ok if I stick my tongue out while typing?

[herding cats]

36. You forgot: Don't bite your fingernails.

[Heather MC]

3. Actually I don't, could you tell me because

My husband and I just purchased 5 acres of land. We want to have a tiny house built. And we want to use incinerating toilets instead of paying for a $40000 septic system that we don't need.

So I would really like to know what happens to a septic system when the land is flooded because we are within 1000' of the Potomac river coma 1/2 of our 5 acres is in a flood zone.

So if you don't mind telling me what happens that would be great and/or pointing me in the direction for evidence because and for evidence because my husband and I are preparing to fight the county did not have to be forced to put a septic system on our property.

I appreciate the knowledge you're choose to share

Thank you

[regrestic]

8. this may help

https://www.savetheriver.org/get-involved/sewage-handbook/

[rickford66]

12. You may have to get an exception from the local building codes.

I would check well ahead before starting to build.

added:

You will need a way to get of your grey water. You just can't dump it outside.

[seaglass]

19. I was wondering about that. Unfortunately I live in a location that is primarily septic tanks.

When we first bought this house 6 years ago the previous owners did not have the washing machine draining into the septic/leaching field - it would not pass Board of Health inspection. I would think it wouldn't be very friendly to the environment to dump sink water, washing machine/dishwasher water directly into the land.

[Heather MC]

20. I want to build a filtration system where the Gray water is reused

Have you ever seen Michael Reynolds, earthship. I don't want an earthship house, but I would love to rebuild his water irrigation system on my property.

My dream would be that we have a 5000vgallon rain water collection barrel. And I intend to build about 7 garden boxes inboxes in my backyard really big ones that have sand and charcoal and gravel in the bottom of them and soil on top and the Gray water will flow out into these 7 garden boxes. And get filtered and cleaned, and be reused for washing dishes and taking baths.

We could have a perfectly safe and close system, that even if it were to break down it wouldn't have a negative impact on the environment.

And for drinking water, I know how to clean rainwater properly and I also already use a Zero water filter because I do not drink tap water it's disgusting.

And for black water, we wouldn't have any because we would have 2 incinerating toilets in the house.

I'm willing to have the house built for regular plumbing, for someone else that wants to spend them $40000 to put a step again but for me we don't need it and I don't want my poop being stored in the ground of my beautiful property

[rickford66]

27. Building codes are behind the times for many new techniques.

Anything and I mean anything different than a plain Jane suburban home should be checked out with code enforcement. Years ago we had to convince inspectors that 2X6 on 24" centers was just as strong as 2X4 on 16" centers. I also had to get permission to use wire mold in places where it's not used for new construction. They can make you tear things out if it doesn't comply without permission. Getting on the good side of an inspector early will save misery later.

[Heather MC]

30. I'm also hoping to enlist the people from the save the Chesapeake Bay foundation

Because our property is within 1000' of the Potomac river, and so it's considered in the critical area and therefore the save the Bay people might really be interested in helping us not contaminate our property with the septic system

[rickford66]

34. Even if someone else does it, double check.

We bought land on a road that had some trailers. When we wanted a permit to put a trailer on it while building, we were turned down. They said no trailers. What about the ones down the road ? Oh. They were grandfathered in. Luckily, our property straddled a town line and the next town over didn't give a crap what we did. So our plans moved a 100 feet or so. I saw someone clear and grade some land to put a trailer on it and then they had to quit, They must not have checked ahead like we did. Just trying to help you out. Good luck with your project.

[Heather MC]

37. It really infuriates me that they decide what someone can and cannot live in.

And mind you most of the people that make these laws live in big houses and they look down upon anyone that wants to live in a trailer.

We originally were going to have a tiny house built on wheels but it was too much of a headache.

[rickford66]

38. There are very rational reasons for building codes.

People poison and kill themselves and others all the time by not following code. If what you want differs from code, you will have to make your case with solid evidence that what you want is safe. It can be done. The codes are always being updated for various reasons.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. EPA has a webpage on it

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/septic-systems-what-do-after-flood

I used to have coworkers who had wells and septic systems and there were all kinds of things to consider - particularly with the well and potential cost to drill a deeper one if the existing was going dry vs drilling a new one and then whether there might be some cross contamination of that well water with flood water and/or from a septic tank rupture.

[Native]

4. Wow, 55% of households in Vermont have them.

It's a rural thing as much as bad planning. But, yeah, Florida, we have a problem for sure.

[sir pball]

15. They're a perfectly reasonable waste solution in the proper circumstances

Very-low-density rural areas like VT for example; we had one in the CT countryside where I grew up, along with a well. If your development requires water service (I doubt the houses in FL all have personal wells), it needs sewer.

[regrestic]

6. Raw Sewage Flow

Raw sewage escaping the system, the chance of the tank floating above ground, depending if there is a water well that may get contaminated with sewage, sewage backing into your home, just a few things..

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/septic-systems-what-do-after-flood

https://supeckseptic.com/blog/flooding-and-septic-systems/#:~:text=Dangers%20to%20a%20Septic%20System%20During%20a%20Flood&text=These%20leaks%20may%20allow%20soil,outlet%20pipes%2C%20if%20not%20both.

https://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/nat/2018/05/04/septic-systems-what-should-you-do-when-a-flood-occurs/

[certainot]

9. i wonder if check valves required at the outflow end of the septic tanks. some republican developer

association found out it added $20 to overall cost and got limbaugh to scream about that proposed regulation so it never happened.......

there's probably some easy way to make the whole leach system one way also

[Chainfire]

24. A "check valve" on a gravity sewer would be a blockage waiting to happen.

And they don't accomplish anything of value, that is why they are not installed. The only time a check valve is used is in a system where the home pumps waste water into what is called a "forced main." Septic tanks do not back up into houses, people just continue using the toilet after the tank and drain field are full, or the line is plugged. You don't need a check valve, you just need to know when to call the plumber or septic tank guy. Properly maintained and used septic systems are fine in rural areas.

I pump my water out of the ground, it is used, goes into the septic tank where a natural process breaks it down, then it is returned to the groundwater after being filtered though hundreds of feet of soil...It is a perfectly functional way of dealing with waste water.

Rural areas are 97% of the American land mass, and 20% of the population. We have different needs and different solutions to problems than people living in dense population centers. I think that sometimes urbanites have a hard time recognizing it, but the rural life is a hell of a lot more "natural" and sustainable than "the burbs" or downtown.

[certainot]

25. i guess i mean a one way valve of some kind designed for that purpose but you're saying there's no

back up? i'm not particularly versed in septic systems but i've seen a few put in.

water pressure couldn't force flood water back up through a leach field and into a septic tank and then back up low level toilets and drains? if the toilet is only a few feet above the level of the leach field and you get that much water on top what happens? if that happens it would happen in low altitude like in florida.

as far as rural goes, there are lots of low altitude parts of the country like in florida where 'rural' applies to a house with septic every acres or two, or even less.

I think that sometimes urbanites have a hard time recognizing it, but the rural life is a hell of a lot more "natural" and sustainable than "the burbs" or downtown

agreed

[Chainfire]

26. Water does not run uphill without some force being applied.

Messes in the house are not caused by a flooded septic tank or drain field unless the house is below the level of the the tank or drain field. In that situation, which is uncommon, then you would have to pump your sanitary drainage from a temporary storage basin, into the septic tank. In those types of systems a check valve would be required, but it is no longer the common gravity system that is the the norm. Check valves are of two common types, one is akin to a gate that only swings in one direction and the other a disk which is held normally closed by a spring. (there are some others, but they cause the same problems) Neither of these two would work in a gravity drainage system and would catch every piece of paper that they were introduced to.

You can certainly make a mess in the house trying to flush a toilet with a stoppage in the drain line, or trying to introduce water into a flooded system faster than the system can disperse it. If your house floor is three feet above the tank, and the water is 2'11" over the tank, water will not flow into the house through the septic tank. If the water level outside the house is forcing water into the house through the septic tank, then you may not notice because water will be coming in under the doors.

[certainot]

28. i imagine in parts of fla there are any sceptic tanks not much lower than 3 ft below floor level and

quite a few sump pumps. we have a sump pump sceptic system. i saw the check valve when i was hanging into the tank changing the pump. and there's another one for the basement toilet.

the writer doesn't specify so i was guessing. but in a situation where it's possible for flooding to back it up into a house and if those situations are more likely in certain areas at very low altitude i would think there might be opportunities for designing a more appropriate valve that might not exist yet, or may not be applied for that purpose. all together i imagine any time the flood water level is above the toilet seat level there is that chance.

[Chainfire]

39. A check valve has to be in a forced system, it does not work in a gravity septic system.

There is a device, that is a check valve of sorts, that is sometimes installed on a house that is connected to a public sewer, it is called a "backwater valve." It is absolutely unnecessary on a septic tank system because, in a gravity home plumbing system, the septic tank can not be above the "flood lever rim" of any fixture. (see reference below) A backwater valve is a service plumber's dream, because he will be there, on a regular basis, cleaning the thing out, to repair stoppages, for big bucks.

Water, even water ponded during a hurricane does not flow uphill. It can be pumped uphill, it can be siphoned uphill (as long as it ends up lower than it started, it can be blown up hill, or it could be carried uphill in a bucket, but it does not flow uphill, not three feet, and not 3 inches and not 3/10s of an inch. You can see the principle working in a "water level."

In your basement, the floor level would almost certainly be below the water in your septic tank, and yes, the tank will flow, by gravity into your basement because it is down hill! Thus the check valve on the pump system. The check valve is not the impediment to flow, in a pumped system, that it would be in a gravity system, because is has the force of the pump to push debris through the valve.

Here is the plumbing code referral: 715.1 Sewage backflow.

Where the flood level rims of plumbing fixtures are below the elevation of the manhole cover of the next upstream manhole in the public sewer, such fixtures shall be protected by a backwater valve installed in the building drain, branch of the building drain or horizontal branch serving such fixtures.


Trust an old plumber, you don't want a check valve on your septic tank system.

[certainot]

40. maybe i'm missing something but if the floodwater outside is higher than the toilet lip

i can see how it could cause a backup if there aren't any obstructions

[Chainfire]

41. That is true, but that means that the water is two feet deep outside you door and is coming in the

house in a dozen places. Even if you sandbag the doors, (which means you have to exit via the windows) Where houses attach to foundations is not waterproof. With two feet of flood waters above your floor level you shouldn't be there to notice that the toilet overflows.

The first place you will notice water backing up will be in the bath tub, or shower, that is when you know that you should have already left.

[certainot]

43. and that some shitty water

[cstanleytech]

7. Largest thing is probably sources of fresh water will likely be unsafe to drink

for awhile.
Plus there is the whole issue of it complicating the cleanup a bit as more care will have to be taken.

[Samrob]

31. Everyone in the affected areas are "Jacksonville" now. Sad.

[ananda]

10. Typhus and other sewage related problems all over the place...

...

[ShazzieB]

18. Typhus...or typhoid fever?

If I remember correctly, typhus is chiefly spread by lice.

[ananda]

21. Thank you! Typhoid fever, absolutely.

...

[JCMach1]

11. Urban Sewage systems are likely at greater risk TBH

As long as there is water for flushing, think filled bathtub, your septic will work. Lower lying areas typically have to have raised drain fields. Also, they are typically only allowed in areas that are have underlying karst (think natural filter for just about anything).

Florida is just different. The soils typically where you get septic are highly porous so they drain quickly.

Septics are not great for water quality in general (think leaks), but way less so than say storm water runoff from chemically treated lawns.

IF ONLY septics were the biggest problem with Florida's runaway development. Be prepared for RW wealthy crying for federal funds to rebuild on the beaches in SW Florida.

[hatrack]

13. On top of that, there's very little relief in Florida's topography . . . .

That means that in many cases, when the land is really flat, you have to have an electric pump to move blackwater out of the house and into the septic system.

You can't just run a line that drops down from the house, and then down into the lateral field because there's not enough "down" on your property.

And when the power goes out (as it often does), there's nowhere for the sewage to go, except backwards.

[JCMach1]

29. Lived with septic through many Florida hurricanes...

Toilet was the one thing that worked for some of those.

As long as your field doesn't completely flood, you are fine.

[Kaleva]

32. You can install septic fields on flat property

You just dig the trench so there's the required decline in pitch

[Chainfire]

42. You got that right!

The poor guy who's rental home and furnishings was destroyed will be on his own. But, give them an MRE and a blanket; that is all they need, the poor know how to get by on almost nothing. The millionaires on the beach will get the "relief" and that new seawall that they have been wanting, and they will bitch and moan at the little guys getting any money. This is my state, I know how it works.

It is the golden rule.

[lindysalsagal]

16. O.M.G.

[HAB911]

17. It's a delicate balancing act defined by Urban Service Boundaries

to concentrate populations and limit urban sprawl. Of course, as long as there are no limits to drilling wells, and there is sufficient water in the ground, it really doesn't limit rural growth, except for the fact lot sizes are limited to one acre.

A 200 home development was recently built on the edge of our urban service boundary and received a waiver to get on county water and sewer.

[Kaleva]

22. Public sewer systems can't handle flooding either

You'll see sewage backing up into basements and homes.