Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:01 PM Oct 2022

What are the rules for weaponized phone cameras?

Here's a scenario. An old man is approaching a time when he should perhaps be thinking about surrendering his driver's license. He accidentally pulls out in front of a carful of young men. It's not a seriously dangerous move. The driver of the other car simply has to brake and slow down. But he's irritated that his legal right of way was infringed upon. The other young men in the car are pissed too. One of them spilled his coffee.

The young men start to yell at and curse the old man. They give him the one-finger salute from all four windows. Then, one of the young men decides to take it farther. He grabs the side of the open window and pulls his whole upper body through it. He shouts insults at the old man and gives him the finger.

The old man is now afraid. He sees his phone next to him on the car seat. The only thing he can think to do is point it at the young men and take a video of them, or at least pretend to. So, he does that.

Instantly, the young man whose upper body was outside the car sees the camera and pulls himself back into the car. The one-finger salutes disappear. The driver is now freaking out, because he was in a car with a bunch of young men who were arguably threatening an old man. He doesn't have video of the old man's stupid driving move, and, anyway, threatening an old man is not a good look.

The young men turn at the next signal and speed off. At a minimum, their time together was spoiled for a while. The driver is now worried, possibly for days, that his license plate will be turned over to the cops or the whole video could go viral.

Everyone knows that cameras are now weaponized. The old man was "in the wrong" in pulling in front of the young men. They were "in the right" until they decided to hassle and frighten the old man. The old man pulled a camera on them. Was he in the wrong?

What are the rules for weaponized cameras?

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What are the rules for weaponized phone cameras? (Original Post) gulliver Oct 2022 OP
Not weaponized at all. MineralMan Oct 2022 #1
Can you think of any cases where a camera (taking a video or photo) might harm someone? gulliver Oct 2022 #6
No, I can't. MineralMan Oct 2022 #18
My favorite request...give me an example gulliver Oct 2022 #29
That's not an example of what you're talking about. MineralMan Oct 2022 #39
A camera is not a weapon LuckyCharms Oct 2022 #2
All true, but... a camera could incite a kook. vanlassie Oct 2022 #3
I don't know what you mean by rules or weaponized in this context. WhiskeyGrinder Oct 2022 #4
I tried to supply a scenario to illustrate it. gulliver Oct 2022 #5
They're afraid because THEY are doing something illegal and madinmaryland Oct 2022 #23
I'd agree as the story is told gulliver Oct 2022 #31
The camera isn't the weapon FreeState Oct 2022 #38
Because they knew they were behaving badly iemanja Oct 2022 #32
it's like an extra setting for Captain Kirk's phaser Red Mountain Oct 2022 #7
Yes, I think that can be one of the uses for it gulliver Oct 2022 #9
So tell us YOUR proposal. ret5hd Oct 2022 #10
A start might be to have compassion for the person on the business end of the "weapon" gulliver Oct 2022 #34
So the "old man" should have been more polite? ret5hd Oct 2022 #40
Well BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #8
I doubt that very much...my daughter apparently annoyed another driver doesn't know why...but Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #11
I'm BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #12
If you are defending your life, it wouldn't be. Also, taking pictures of building is suspicious Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #14
Oh boy BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #16
She took a picture with here Iphone first...she wanted to make sure she got it. Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #20
And, You Didn't Beat The Ticket? ProfessorGAC Oct 2022 #17
That is a good point...but I told the story of my kid. I never had a ticket. I use a phone holder Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #19
No BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #22
Glad You're Not A Traffic Court Judge ProfessorGAC Oct 2022 #26
Why BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #27
Interesting Definition You Have... ProfessorGAC Oct 2022 #28
The poster below says you were stopped and could have beaten the ticket...he replied to me by Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #21
. BeerBarrelPolka Oct 2022 #24
I dont like the metaphor of "weaponized" for things . SYFROYH Oct 2022 #13
You may have to defend yourself these days. My daughter could have been murdered by that idiot. Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #15
I agree with you. I think it's trite to refer to things as "weaponized" Kaleva Oct 2022 #25
It's overused. I agree gulliver Oct 2022 #30
Tough shit iemanja Oct 2022 #33
They might learn or they might be destroyed by a viral mob gulliver Oct 2022 #35
They could be hit by a terrorist bombing too iemanja Oct 2022 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author TheBeam19 Oct 2022 #37

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
1. Not weaponized at all.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:04 PM
Oct 2022

It's just a camera. Nothing more. You can use it to document events. Weapons imply violence. Cameras are not weapons in any way. They are simply recording devices.

The rules are simple. If you have a camera, you can take photos and videos with it. The camera can't harm anyone.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
6. Can you think of any cases where a camera (taking a video or photo) might harm someone?
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:20 PM
Oct 2022

And, by harm, I'm talking about harm in the general sense. People can be harmed, even destroyed without physical violence. The camera can be used to defend against harm and to cause it. Cameras cause fear.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
29. My favorite request...give me an example
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:12 PM
Oct 2022

Easy, and I'm essentially certain it would be easy for you too, but the burden's on me.

Suppose the old man in my scenario started to take video of the car with the young men in it. He posts it. It goes viral. The driver's employer sees it and fires him.

The young man has taken harm from the camera. QED

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
39. That's not an example of what you're talking about.
Mon Oct 10, 2022, 09:48 AM
Oct 2022

No harm came to anyone that can be connected to the camera.

It wasn't used as a weapon, so it hasn't been weaponized.

Wrong word choice.

vanlassie

(5,637 posts)
3. All true, but... a camera could incite a kook.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:09 PM
Oct 2022

So I think you should use cameras if you think you need to document, but use discretion.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
5. I tried to supply a scenario to illustrate it.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:14 PM
Oct 2022

The old man pulls the camera in self-defense. The young men are (justifiably, I would say) afraid of the camera. Why? (Or is my scenario BS?)

madinmaryland

(64,920 posts)
23. They're afraid because THEY are doing something illegal and
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:10 PM
Oct 2022

Taking the law into their own hands. At this point it has nothing to do with the older gentleman. End of story. There is no reason for these douchebags to attack him.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
31. I'd agree as the story is told
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:49 PM
Oct 2022

I'm just saying the camera is a weapon. You're saying it's use is just in this case. I happen to agree.

But the justness is a separate question. If we don't like weapons, paradoxically, we can refuse to call something a weapon when it is used against someone we don't like. Then it's a tool.

I go back to the idea that if something can be used to attack or defend, it's a weapon.

FreeState

(10,553 posts)
38. The camera isn't the weapon
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 10:27 PM
Oct 2022

The video, had it been recorded, could have been weaponized. Video can be recorded and weaponized regardless of what does the recording.

That being said an adult person driving the car in this scenario has responsibility for its minor occupants behavior. In this case the driver would have broken the law because his under age occupants were not in their seatbelts (depends on where but this is the law in my state).

Red Mountain

(1,705 posts)
7. it's like an extra setting for Captain Kirk's phaser
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:33 PM
Oct 2022

Kill, stun and 'make them behave like society is watching'.

Not all together bad IMHO though it might serve to escalate some situations in a negative way.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
9. Yes, I think that can be one of the uses for it
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:44 PM
Oct 2022

But what are the rules? How do we know we're seeing the whole story? And also, it's important to ask "who" is seeing the story and what they're thinking.

If I don't like the way you're behaving, can I just take a video of you and post in SnapChat where everyone who likes me agrees with me and judges you?

It strikes me as seriously odd that we don't seem to realize the potential for unjust uses of the camera as a weapon. It's a weapon. It can cause harm. It needs rules and ethics just like any other weapon.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
34. A start might be to have compassion for the person on the business end of the "weapon"
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:55 PM
Oct 2022

Even if we are really sure we're right, it doesn't free us from the responsibility to be sure we are avoiding attacking others as much as we can, even if they are in the wrong.

That's just one anyway.

ret5hd

(20,435 posts)
40. So the "old man" should have been more polite?
Mon Oct 10, 2022, 03:47 PM
Oct 2022

You gave a scenario, and am interested in where you are heading with this.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
8. Well
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:38 PM
Oct 2022

Here in Illinois, the old man would at least be ticketed for using a cell phone while driving. And no video would go viral if the old man didn't upload it.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
11. I doubt that very much...my daughter apparently annoyed another driver doesn't know why...but
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:41 PM
Oct 2022

he followed her driving erratically on the highway. He pulled in front of her and slammed on his brakes. She had called 911 at this point, they told her to get a pic of his license plate...which she did. Next, she tried to get off the highway and the guy went around her and turned sideways blocking her at the end of the exit. He got out of the car and she raised her phone so he could see it...he continued to walk towards her shouting but eventually heard the sirens and left. He is damn lucky had it been me when he came towards my car, I would have run his sorry ass over. So yeah, a phone can be a weapon one uses for self-defense. Almost forgot, thanks to the pics and the calls, My daughter had his picture too when he was walking towards the car, he pleaded guilty to a road rage charge and a reckless driving charge. There were more charges but I can't remember. I think one of them was assault. She has no idea what she did to annoy him.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
12. I'm
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:44 PM
Oct 2022

I'm talking from first hand experience. I got stopped for taking a picture of a building while driving my car. So yes, it's a ticketable offense here in Illinois.

Edit: And I was stopped at a red light to boot.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
14. If you are defending your life, it wouldn't be. Also, taking pictures of building is suspicious
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:50 PM
Oct 2022

after 9-11...so while they used cell phone laws which vary from state to state I expect the fact you were taking pictures of a building piqued their interest and they used cellphone law. Also, many cars are now equipped with cameras. My car has a dash camera and a back camera. If I slam on my breaks it takes a picture. If there is an accident pictures are taken...I think it runs most of the time and if something happens you can retrieve the pictures. A guy who hit me and tried to say I did it, got caught that way.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
16. Oh boy
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:59 PM
Oct 2022

Dash cams are perfectly legal as they operate automatically. And no, taking a picture of a building in rural Illinois is not suspicious whatsoever. Here is the indisputable fact. It is illegal to operate a cellphone unless it is not handheld while operating a motor vehicle in the state of Illinois.

https://www.ilsos.gov/departments/drivers/traffic_safety/distracted.html#:~:text=Illinois%20law%20prohibits%20the%20use,driving%20and%20can%20be%20dangerous.

The above scenario the OP made up does not demonstrate an emergency situation. If they tried to ram him or actually threatened his life then that would be an emergency.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
20. She took a picture with here Iphone first...she wanted to make sure she got it.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 07:57 PM
Oct 2022

And thanks to Mom, who placed an app on her phone that recorded and sent out the GPS info, she could send the cops her GPS information so they could reach her quickly

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
17. And, You Didn't Beat The Ticket?
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 05:25 PM
Oct 2022

Illinoisan here, too.
The law specifically states one cannot use the phone, unless hands free, in a moving vehicle.
If you were at at stop light, you weren't moving. You could have contested it and likely would have won.
My friend did. Very similar scenario.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
19. That is a good point...but I told the story of my kid. I never had a ticket. I use a phone holder
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 07:55 PM
Oct 2022

and can use blue tooth or iPod connections. My daughter certainly wasn't in trouble the guy who's picture she got is in prison.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
22. No
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:02 PM
Oct 2022

Here is the Illinois law:

https://www.ilsos.gov/departments/drivers/traffic_safety/distracted.html#:~:text=Illinois%20law%20prohibits%20the%20use,driving%20and%20can%20be%20dangerous.

The only time Illinois drivers can use a cell phone that is not hands free is:

To report an emergency situation.
While parked on the shoulder of a roadway.
While stopped due to normal traffic being obstructed and the vehicle is in neutral or park.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
26. Glad You're Not A Traffic Court Judge
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:47 PM
Oct 2022

My friend got ticketed for answering a call at a stop sign.
Judge dismissed it in about 3 seconds.
There are several counties around here that have told cops not to bother ticketing for talking on phone, only texting.
A literal reading of the law provides no benefit to public safety.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
27. Why
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:50 PM
Oct 2022

Why would you insult me? I broke the law, I paid the ticket. I don't go crying to a judge like a trump.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
28. Interesting Definition You Have...
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:57 PM
Oct 2022

...of insult.
There was no insult given.
I just don't care for literalism. Public safety was not enhanced by your ticket or fine.
Hence, I think you should have fought against a stupid law.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
21. The poster below says you were stopped and could have beaten the ticket...he replied to me by
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 07:59 PM
Oct 2022

inadvertently.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,202 posts)
24. .
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:13 PM
Oct 2022

No worries. Thanks for letting me know.

I don't mind paying the ticket because I was wrong and broke the law.

SYFROYH

(34,127 posts)
13. I dont like the metaphor of "weaponized" for things .
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:45 PM
Oct 2022


In your example, a camera wasn't weaponized, the camera was used to film video that could be shared.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
15. You may have to defend yourself these days. My daughter could have been murdered by that idiot.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:53 PM
Oct 2022

My Dad taught each of his daughters (he worried about us) that a car is a weapon and never forget that if you get into some sort of trouble on the road. Don't leave your car and use it if you must. He was military.

Kaleva

(36,147 posts)
25. I agree with you. I think it's trite to refer to things as "weaponized"
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:25 PM
Oct 2022

People use it because that's what the cool kids in school are saying.

"Tool" would be, in this case, a better term.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
30. It's overused. I agree
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:32 PM
Oct 2022

My point is that it's very dangerous, a phone camera. And there should be an ethics for wielding it against a non-consenting subject.

iemanja

(53,003 posts)
33. Tough shit
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:53 PM
Oct 2022

They wouldn't have been worried if they hadn't been acting like jerks.
Maybe they'll learn to behave themselves.

gulliver

(13,142 posts)
35. They might learn or they might be destroyed by a viral mob
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 10:06 PM
Oct 2022

They might be treated with restraint, learn, and become wiser. They might, on the other hand, be electronically cornered by a social media viral mob of stone casters and have their lives ruined. That would be out of proportion, imo.

iemanja

(53,003 posts)
36. They could be hit by a terrorist bombing too
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 10:07 PM
Oct 2022

anything could happen. Only it didn't. The old man isn't responsible for whatever you or the young men might dream up.

Response to gulliver (Original post)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What are the rules for we...