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Would you use the word "evil" or "traitor" to describe anyone who is an outspoken election denier, (Original Post) Doodley Mar 2023 OP
Not traitor, it doesn't meet the definition, MarineCombatEngineer Mar 2023 #1
It meets the definition of "traitor", though not "treasonous". Mister Ed Mar 2023 #2
Stupid comes to mind more than your other choices. gladium et scutum Mar 2023 #3
Wouldn't 'stupid' imply that they did it by mistake, rather than deliberate gaslighting? Doodley Mar 2023 #12
have known many folks gladium et scutum Mar 2023 #23
You'd think there'd be no such dunce. czarjak Mar 2023 #4
Malicious opportunistic asshole who would sell out the country and its citizens for whatever coin Solly Mack Mar 2023 #5
Yes, they are setting fire to America for their own ends. Doodley Mar 2023 #13
Exactly. People like that always think they won't be burned. Solly Mack Mar 2023 #30
I'm trying to H2O Man Mar 2023 #27
Oh, now. We both know there are always lines. Solly Mack Mar 2023 #29
A "fucking asshole." sakabatou Mar 2023 #6
If they give aid and comfort to the 1/6 Traitors TheRealNorth Mar 2023 #7
Seems accurate. Doodley Mar 2023 #14
That's almost the definition of evil ecstatic Mar 2023 #8
Yes, that is how I feel. With their lies, they are gaslighting the nation, Doodley Mar 2023 #16
Yes. I_UndergroundPanther Mar 2023 #9
Might call them "Tucker" RussBLib Mar 2023 #10
I don't use the word evil at all, and only an actual traitor is a traitor. An election denier? Iggo Mar 2023 #11
I'm talking about vocal election deniers who actually believe the election was fair. Doodley Mar 2023 #18
I'm okay with words like liar, thief, idiot, asshole, etc. Iggo Mar 2023 #21
I agree. I don't use extreme language indiscriminately either. Midwestern Democrat Mar 2023 #33
Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at on it. Iggo Mar 2023 #34
The definition of traitor is different from "treason." yardwork Mar 2023 #19
Yeah, that's a pretty loose word. Iggo Mar 2023 #22
I think it's the issue of lying that makes it traitorous. yardwork Mar 2023 #25
I can see that. Iggo Mar 2023 #35
Fraud. lees1975 Mar 2023 #15
Deluded comes to mind. nt leftyladyfrommo Mar 2023 #17
I think 'anyone' is too broad a brush peggysue2 Mar 2023 #20
One can be both. nt Samrob Mar 2023 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author traitorsgalore Mar 2023 #26
100%. They are enabling, encouraging, creating the climate of distrust in our democracy Doodley Mar 2023 #28
I think duplicitous. jalan48 Mar 2023 #31
Like those who accuse Democrats of rigging primaries when they know it's not true. betsuni Mar 2023 #32

Mister Ed

(5,928 posts)
2. It meets the definition of "traitor", though not "treasonous".
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 12:24 AM
Mar 2023

"Treason" under US law has a very narrow and specific definition. The people in question aren't legally guilty of treason, but they do meet Definition 1 of the word "traitor":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty

Solly Mack

(90,762 posts)
5. Malicious opportunistic asshole who would sell out the country and its citizens for whatever coin
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 12:43 AM
Mar 2023

they desire. (ratings, money, power)

TheRealNorth

(9,475 posts)
7. If they give aid and comfort to the 1/6 Traitors
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 12:54 AM
Mar 2023

Then yes, traitor is appropriate. As for the rest, it's a mixture of evil and/or stupid.

ecstatic

(32,681 posts)
8. That's almost the definition of evil
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 01:06 AM
Mar 2023

It shows a complete lack of integrity and character. Lying to people who depend on you to speak the truth. Playing a role in the incitement of violence and chaos, racism and hatred. They don't care who gets killed as a result of their lies, as long as the checks keep coming. They'll say anything and not lose any sleep.

Honestly, someone like that is worse than an actual true believer. True believers are idiots. They have an excuse.

Doodley

(9,078 posts)
16. Yes, that is how I feel. With their lies, they are gaslighting the nation,
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 09:27 AM
Mar 2023

dividing the people, stirring up fury, and trying to destroy our democracy. They use their platform to manipulate millions of people through lies and don't care in America burns down as a result. How is that not evil? Thank you for your reply.

Iggo

(47,548 posts)
11. I don't use the word evil at all, and only an actual traitor is a traitor. An election denier?
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 06:39 AM
Mar 2023

I would call them “election denier.”

Doodley

(9,078 posts)
18. I'm talking about vocal election deniers who actually believe the election was fair.
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 09:34 AM
Mar 2023

They have stirred up anger and fury among millions of people who now believe Joe Biden stole the election, and they don't care if our democracy and our peace is destroyed as a result, and therefore our nation, all for personal gain. Does the word evil or traitor not fit this?

Iggo

(47,548 posts)
21. I'm okay with words like liar, thief, idiot, asshole, etc.
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 11:48 AM
Mar 2023

Evil and traitor would feel overly dramatic and pretentious spilling outa my mouth, less like describing and more like name-calling.

Maybe I took your question too literally. (“Would you use…?”) Because no, I wouldn’t. But that’s not me saying people can’t call them whatever they want to call them. That’s just me saying I don’t talk like that.



33. I agree. I don't use extreme language indiscriminately either.
Sat Mar 11, 2023, 09:57 AM
Mar 2023

Evil is a term I would only use for the very worst people in society - serial killers, mass murderers, Hitler, etc. Traitor is a term I would only use for someone who was intentionally helping a foreign government do harm to the United States.

Iggo

(47,548 posts)
34. Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at on it.
Sat Mar 11, 2023, 01:30 PM
Mar 2023

Last edited Sat Mar 11, 2023, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

As I’ve gotten older (61 and counting…), the more I’ve thought about it, the word evil as an adjective is kind of useless to me. I’m very comfortable using the word bad as the opposite of good. Evil the noun is a little closer in reach, and I leave some room for that as long as it’s not a religious argument for its existence. That I have no time for. But evil the adjective is basically removed from my lexicon as it relates to things that are real.

To me, it comes down to this: The opposite of good is bad. The opposite of evil is…what? I haven’t found a satisfying answer to that.

Traitor is much easier. That’s a spy or a turncoat. (Not a best friend who steals my girlfriend…lol.)

Iggo

(47,548 posts)
22. Yeah, that's a pretty loose word.
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 11:54 AM
Mar 2023

Technically, it’s anyone who betrays you, and I got a lot of better words for that.

Like I said in another reply, I’m not telling you you’re wrong or you can’t say that. I’m telling you I don’t really talk like that. (I admit I probably took the question in the OP too literally…lol.)

yardwork

(61,588 posts)
25. I think it's the issue of lying that makes it traitorous.
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 01:36 PM
Mar 2023

Many people sincerely believe the 2020 election was stolen, because they're misinformed. But Tucker Carlson admitted in texts that he knew the election was not stolen, yet he continued to tell millions of viewers that it was. It's a very serious thing to lie about, going to the heart of our democracy.

For that reason, I call Tucker Carlson a traitor.

Iggo

(47,548 posts)
35. I can see that.
Sat Mar 11, 2023, 02:41 PM
Mar 2023

I’ve been trying for a couple of days to come up with an answer to, “Oh yeah? Well then what’s a traitor?” And I wanted it to be “any oath-breaker”, but I wouldn’t call an ex-spouse a traitor, so my attempt at a catch-all definition ended up catching too much…lol. But I’m thinking it’s more along the lines of spies and turncoats than conmen, liars, and thieves.

peggysue2

(10,828 posts)
20. I think 'anyone' is too broad a brush
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 10:19 AM
Mar 2023

I could certainly apply the term 'evil' to the Neo-Nazis for all the bigotry and hate. Then there are the seditionists, the armed militias like the Proud Boys who saw an opportunity to raise their profile and gain the power as an enforcement group. And then others who simply enjoy stirring up shit.

The word 'traitor' is a shorthand, I think, for the way many of us feel about the America First Movement without matching the full legal definition of anyone, everyone involved.

As for actually believing Joe Biden won the election?

I tend to believe the vast majority do understand that, certainly the politicians, lawyers, professional mouthpieces. They've spread the lies because it's convenient to do so, because there's money to make, power to grab. But I also think there is a swath of America still in the Trump Trance, fortified by the lies, the conspiracy theories, the gaslighting, the whole propaganda machine to keep them marching forward, mumbling the same Stop the Steal malarkey, for whom Trump's words about being their warrior, their justice, their retribution makes sense and sounds absolutely true.

Before Trump, my own mother fell under the spell of Rush Limbaugh who railed against the Commies, the Feminists, the Ne'er-do-Wells changing the country for the worst, to a place she no longer recognized. He spoke directly to her bitterness, her grievances about her personal situation that really involved a disappointing marriage, her health and age, her sense of isolation. She had her afternoon Manhattan and drank it all down, defended the man whenever we had a conversation about politics or world events. And then, we stopped having those conversations because they were fractious and pointless.

So different levels of participation, self-destructive attitudes and behavior out there. All of it corrosive.

Response to Doodley (Original post)

Doodley

(9,078 posts)
28. 100%. They are enabling, encouraging, creating the climate of distrust in our democracy
Fri Mar 10, 2023, 03:58 PM
Mar 2023

to assist an attempted takeover of our nation with what would be a fascist regime. If people can't bring themselves to call that treason, then what would it take?

betsuni

(25,456 posts)
32. Like those who accuse Democrats of rigging primaries when they know it's not true.
Sat Mar 11, 2023, 02:18 AM
Mar 2023

And call Democrats the lesser of two evils.

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