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Celerity

(43,333 posts)
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:22 PM Mar 2023

America Has Decided It Went Overboard on Covid-19

The idea that pandemic response went too far is no longer confined to the margins

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/opinion/covid-19-pandemic-masks-china.html

https://archive.is/phiHj



In both the United States and Britain, there is suddenly a front-and-center debate about the very earliest days of the pandemic and how each country responded. Did mitigation measures imposed in the spring of 2020, amid great anxiety and uncertainty, actually work? And considering the costs, were they worth it?

In the United States, that conversation was precipitated by a Department of Energy leak about Covid-19’s origins and by a flood of hearings initiated by the Republican House majority into those origins and the American response: the impacts of shelter-in-place guidance and school closures, vaccine development and mask guidance, and more. In Britain, it was precipitated by a leak of more than 100,000 ready-for-the-tabloids WhatsApp messages between Matt Hancock, the secretary of state for health and social care for the first 15 months of the pandemic, and other senior figures of the British government, including Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who at one point, misreading the number of decimal places in a fatality-rate estimate, appeared to conclude that Covid was only 1/100th as deadly as it was. “If you are over 65 your risk of dying from Covid is probably as big as your risk of falling down stairs,” Johnson wrote to his team in August 2020. “And we don’t stop older people from using stairs. What do you think?”

It’s telling that the British scandal centers on Hancock, who reached the highest levels of public notoriety when he was caught disobeying his own social-distancing orders to visit his aide with whom he was having an extramarital affair. It’s also telling that the scandal has come about because the ghostwriter Hancock hired to help him cash in on that infamy, herself apparently a lockdown skeptic, eventually turned on him and, shortly after the book’s publication, sent the messages to The Daily Telegraph. That’s because, for much of the pandemic in England, the country’s leaders came under fire for incompetence to some degree but especially for their hypocrisy. (Johnson’s own top adviser Dominic Cummings kept memorably comparing him to an out-of-control shopping cart, but he was forced to ultimately resign over fallout from parties held during periods of social distancing.)

By contrast, to the extent Americans vilified their leaders over the course of the pandemic, it was not primarily for hypocrisy (remember Gavin Newsom’s French Laundry dinner party?) but for harshness. In Britain, the WhatsApp leak has been narrativized by the British press as a cartoon of feckless leadership. In the United States, the equivalent leak was the “Twitter files,” when internal company deliberations over pandemic messaging were examined by contrarian quasi-journalists deputized by Elon Musk shortly after his takeover of the company. The rhetorical emphasis was to hype public health guidance as near-totalitarian, as though those pursuing restrictions regarded severity as something like an ideological end of its own.

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America Has Decided It Went Overboard on Covid-19 (Original Post) Celerity Mar 2023 OP
I don't understand..all the death n misery and we went too far? Deuxcents Mar 2023 #1
+++ JohnSJ Mar 2023 #3
I hate to imagine what's going to happen next time there's a deadly pandemic. Crunchy Frog Mar 2023 #2
Next time will bring mass die-off. dchill Mar 2023 #5
I plan to make sure that we are always well stocked with N95s, hand sanitizer, Crunchy Frog Mar 2023 #19
What if the Next Pandemic Happens Tomorrow? Celerity Mar 2023 #20
1.2 Million Americans died from it over 3 years. That's a 9/11 every other day. For 3 years. RockRaven Mar 2023 #4
LOL, no. Jirel Mar 2023 #6
What went overboard was The NY Times pushing WMDs in Iraq via Judy Miller JohnSJ Mar 2023 #7
Bravo! Delphinus Mar 2023 #18
Over one million dead isn't enough? Doodley Mar 2023 #8
And every single MAGAT will blame what was done in 2020 Mr.Bill Mar 2023 #9
It has not ended. former9thward Mar 2023 #23
Most of the US covid deaths happened after the vaccines came out. Yavin4 Mar 2023 #10
Not this American! 50 Shades Of Blue Mar 2023 #11
Covid was totally unknown. milestogo Mar 2023 #12
People are stupid ismnotwasm Mar 2023 #13
No, HEADLINE writer, AMERICA has not decided that. Even the opinion piece writer hasn't decided that pnwmom Mar 2023 #14
One of the biggest things precautions did was too delay infections unblock Mar 2023 #15
Kind of expected of a Nation where dead kids are prefered over change sanatanadharma Mar 2023 #16
It's The Curse Of Public Health Work, Ma'am The Magistrate Mar 2023 #17
The pandemic was from the beginning a no win kacekwl Mar 2023 #21
The government made some asinine rules that made people lose respect for them Trenzalore Mar 2023 #22
Excess death stats make the toll closer to 2 million flamingdem Mar 2023 #24
It's really easy to forget those morgue trucks parked outside hospitals. KentuckyWoman Mar 2023 #25
A million deaths and we went too far? spanone Mar 2023 #26

Deuxcents

(16,193 posts)
1. I don't understand..all the death n misery and we went too far?
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:29 PM
Mar 2023

We fought an unknown virus n still don’t know it’s origin. The only thing I can think of that was too far, was the greedy people who abused the stimulus and programs to help those who truly needed it. Thankfully, I did not get sick b/c I got my shots n boosters n to this day, still wear my mask when I feel I should. What am I missing?

Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
2. I hate to imagine what's going to happen next time there's a deadly pandemic.
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:30 PM
Mar 2023

Because it's certain it will happen again at some point, and the impulse will be to do as little as possible.

Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
19. I plan to make sure that we are always well stocked with N95s, hand sanitizer,
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:21 PM
Mar 2023

and gloves. Even if Covid stops being a thing. Always be prepared for the next thing that comes along. And toilet paper too.

Celerity

(43,333 posts)
20. What if the Next Pandemic Happens Tomorrow?
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:44 PM
Mar 2023
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/12/opinion/pandemic-disease-x-simulation.html

https://archive.is/uPRPH



It’s been three years since the Covid-19 pandemic began, and yet many aspects of how to best respond to a novel virus remain unsettled or fiercely debated. The next currently unknown virus that could cause a pandemic — what the World Health Organization calls “Disease X” — may be different from Covid, requiring a different set of tools and a different level of response. As Dr. Tom Inglesby, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, outlines in a guest essay, public health leaders sometimes participate in simulations where they are asked to make decisions based on limited information about Disease X, as they would at the beginning of any pandemic.

We asked a group of experts to take part in a scaled-down Disease X simulation to show readers the diversity in views on how to best respond to pandemic threats — quickly, with little detail, as they would likely have to in a real-world situation. We gave the experts a few parameters, and asked them to briefly address specific questions they may be asked by local leaders if such a virus were to emerge and spread in their communities. As you’ll see, not everyone agrees. We hope to show that experts with policy-making experience and similar goals can come to different conclusions and advise different strategies.







snip

RockRaven

(14,962 posts)
4. 1.2 Million Americans died from it over 3 years. That's a 9/11 every other day. For 3 years.
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:34 PM
Mar 2023

But yeah, attempts to reduce transmission when there were no effective vaccines available yet were the REAL problem.

People are so fucking stupid.

Jirel

(2,018 posts)
6. LOL, no.
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:36 PM
Mar 2023

In the opinion of someone who either was a fringe kook trying to retcon their opinions into a semblance of respectability, or who had the equivalent of post-party’s amnesia, maybe. In the real world of thinking adults who understood the death toll and how rapidly it spread and killed before vaccines were available, no. Really dumb concept.

Mr.Bill

(24,283 posts)
9. And every single MAGAT will blame what was done in 2020
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:45 PM
Mar 2023

on Joe Biden. They will say it enough for half the country to remember it that way ten years from now.

Never forget, remind them every time the subject comes up, the pandemic started on Trump's watch and ended on Biden's watch.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
12. Covid was totally unknown.
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 08:57 PM
Mar 2023

I think the precautions taken were totally appropriate. It could have been worse. Hindsight is perfect, but when a great unknown is bearing down on the whole world, I think its better to go too far than not far enough.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
13. People are stupid
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:07 PM
Mar 2023

We always have Covid patients. I just looked it up and we have 9 right now. As opposed to zero flu patients. We have all kinds of infections of course, norovirus is still going strong but Covid never goes away.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
14. No, HEADLINE writer, AMERICA has not decided that. Even the opinion piece writer hasn't decided that
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:09 PM
Mar 2023

But apparently the headline writer has.

unblock

(52,205 posts)
15. One of the biggest things precautions did was too delay infections
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:13 PM
Mar 2023

Aside from keeping many people from getting infected at all, precautions helped keep too many people from getting infected all at once and too early, before we knew better how to treat it.

Fewer precautions would have meant more preventable deaths from hospitals being overfull or from inferior treatment before we learned more about effective critical care for Covid.

sanatanadharma

(3,701 posts)
16. Kind of expected of a Nation where dead kids are prefered over change
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:13 PM
Mar 2023

Damn the dead and full speed ahead. If Granny can't keep up, cut her loose.
God, guns and gummies*; my greed over your need.
Maddening.

*Gummies, worms-bears-cbd, representing our gluttonous consumption mindsets

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
17. It's The Curse Of Public Health Work, Ma'am
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 09:15 PM
Mar 2023

When public health measures achieve success, why, little happens, and people wonder what was all the bother for....

kacekwl

(7,016 posts)
21. The pandemic was from the beginning a no win
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 10:43 PM
Mar 2023

situation. The was always doing too little and doing too much. I myself would have of course done too much. People whine way to much no matter what.

Trenzalore

(2,331 posts)
22. The government made some asinine rules that made people lose respect for them
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 10:52 PM
Mar 2023

In PA there was a rule you couldn't sit at a bar for a drink unless you were being served a meal and you couldn't sit directly at the bar during a point in the pandemic.

All the bars offered hot dogs and set up cocktail tables next to the bar. The rules were silly and no one knew whether they were in compliance, not even the liquor control board really understood the rules.

I understood reduced seating requirements and other measures but there were some really dumb rules and as someone who has managed people for 10+ years I know the easiest way for people to lose respect for you as a leader is to make a dumb rule that doesn't make sense.

I say this as someone who is in favor of masking in hospitals 100% of the time not just during an epidemic.

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
24. Excess death stats make the toll closer to 2 million
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 11:37 PM
Mar 2023

Overboard? I think not.

A friend just came down with it and without Paxlovid she would probably be in the hospital. This is not the flu!

KentuckyWoman

(6,679 posts)
25. It's really easy to forget those morgue trucks parked outside hospitals.
Mon Mar 20, 2023, 11:38 PM
Mar 2023

The horrid scenes coming out of other countries that were a few weeks ahead of us in body count. The fact ambulances with heart attack victims were having trouble finding an ER to go to because no beds. They were rigging up vents to work with 2 patients at the same time.

Fully HALF my friends are gone because of Covid. Either the disease itself or the challenges getting care for other illness during that time period.

Anyone who says we overreacted can go lick a raccoon dog for all I care.


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