My white professor used a racial term against a black man in lecture

[Sympthsical]

This is kind of interesting, and I'd be curious what people here thought.

I'm taking a pre-law class on constitutional rights and minorities this semester. Mainly for fun and because I find the topic interesting. Plus, sometimes you just need something different from dissecting sheep eyes.

Over the weekend, I needed to finish up a midterm paper. It mainly concerned itself with selective incorporation - the practice of the Supreme Court to only gradually apply the Bill of Rights to the states over the 100 or so years after the 14th Amendment passed. Also, a lot of commentary on Hugo Black. If you do not know what Justice Hugo Black's whole deal is, I highly recommend reading up on the man. He's fascinating.

Anyway, my professor has opinions. A lot of them. I'm an AOC type progressive, and a lot of the time even I'm thinking, "Ok, slow down." Spams our inboxes often with a lot of articles with the most partisan ideological positions - if you were ever thinking you were going to write a paper supporting originalism or textualism or talking about how Scalia wasn't such a bad guy - don't. The man might actually stroke out.

Suffice to say, Clarence Thomas is not his favorite person. At all. He's had a running commentary about the Justice all semester long. While I share the professor's legal outlook (loose constructionist, living Constitution), it's been bothering me just how over the top partisan he is and how he pushes relentlessly for only his own political views. I would never write a paper disagreeing with him and feel comfortable about how that grade would turn out.

So his lectures are video taped. I was going through a few of them while writing my paper to ensure I had covered all the bases before turning it in. And there it was: "We all know Justice Thomas is just a big double-stuffed oreo . . ."

Again, this professor is a white man. And a professor. Who is ostensibly teaching critical thinking skills about the law (he's not - he's just straight up advocating his ideology - but let's pretend).

I'm not really ok with this. I kind of want to say something to the administration. It's on video online, so it's not even my word against his he said it. He even laughingly says a few moments later, "Don't get me fired," so he at least knows on some level it's not great. But he also felt ok enough with it to leave it in his video lecture anyone can access online. He says all kinds of things that are fine on Twitter, but maybe not if you're teaching students (his comments about Christians are epic and ongoing. I think my favorite was, "They don't really believe in Jesus anyway" ).

So I'm mulling this over. After a pretty heavy stream of partisanship, the oreo comment is where I literally stopped, got my partner, and showed it to him. I'd been mentioning this professor to him for months, and that was my, "You have to see this shit" moment. I was . . . not shocked. Just didn't see it going that far or blatantly.

I don't want him fired - I don't care that much, and I'm not a pre-law student. But I don't think this is even kind of ok, and it feels like a straw for me about how he's been teaching the entire class all semester and his relentless spam and commentary promoting his own political views.

I'm curious to know how people here would go about this. I have a 4.0 GPA and am not inclined to risk it, so confronting him isn't something that's going to happen.

Would you say something to administration?

[Karadeniz]

1. I'd start first with the professor.

[Sympthsical]

5. I'm not interested in imperiling my grade

I don't even want a W on my transcript, because I have to apply to various programs in the near future.

He also doesn't seem like the most . . . even-keeled person I've ever encountered.

[DenaliDemocrat]

21. So is this the first time you've run into a prof

That has their own agenda and seems a little off their rocker? Part of college is figuring out how the professor thinks and then playing the game.

As a field scientist I generally HATED dealing with college professors (they were sometimes community advocates). Most of them had a position or technique they believed in and just wanted to see that deployed. It didn’t matter if it was the best - it was their research interest so they pushed it.

Never mind the fact that as a government scientist I was dealing with 10 different projects across the world with the same problem and had far more real world experience than the college professors and knew what works vs what doesn’t.

I’d just let it go.

[FakeNoose]

43. ✔✔✔👆

I wouldn't sweat it either.

But it does seem this professor is going out of his way to provoke a reaction.

[Sympthsical]

53. Not the first time at all

This is my second run through college for a career change, and I've had some characters over the years. But this first time where it reached a level where I went, "Oh. This is something I'm not sure I want to leave alone." As it was, I was dealing with his stuff in the usual manner. Just largely ignore it and move on while telling entertaining stories about the crazier stuff to friends.

But the racial term out of his mouth caught me in a weird way. Felt like a line had been crossed from usual bullshit to wondering if things were getting out of bounds in an unusual way.

I think it's also my age. He and I are similar age, so I don't perceive him as an authority figure much. Mix in my HR background, and I've got a little splinter of irritation towards him starting to dig.

[old as dirt]

118. If you want to strike up...

...an interesting conversation with him, try asking him what he thinks about my wife's religious rights (both individual and collective) as a palenquera. Under International Law, her religion has more rights than yours or mine.

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/rights-maroons-international-human-rights-law

(For example, religious rights for her could include things like territory.)

[meadowlander]

44. If you're worried about it, wait until after the class is over.

After your grade has cleared, talk to him about it person to person.

I worked as TA when I was in grad school back in the 90s and used the term WASP in class. Someone in my class called me out on it and I thought not really the same as it's not like White Protestants are a historically marginalised community but also I didn't need to go there to make my point so I'll be a bit more careful in the future keeping in mind the wider audience I was speaking to. It would never for a second occur to me to penalise or lash out at that student for raising the issue.

And I suspect if you do go to the Dean's office they will ask what you have done to try to resolve the issue yourself. If you can show that you at least talked to the Professor and then they either did it again or lashed out at you inappropriately, then you would have stronger grounds for making a complaint.

Your professor is a person, and sometimes people screw up. Not every screw up justifies trying to get someone fired, which is what going to the administration and accusing them of racism would potentially do.

[Sympthsical]

54. I think this will be the course of action

I'm glad I posted the OP, because it's firming up how to handle it and cooled me down a bit. Not that I was enraged about it. Just more, "Not ok!" in that way where you want to do something in response.

Plus, let's be honest. It's only halfway through the semester. There's a morbid, "I wonder what's going to come out of his mouth next . . ." curiosity starting to hang over the class.

I appreciate everyone's responses.

[yardwork]

68. This sounds like a wise course of action.

I think this professor's behavior (blatant partisanship, use of racial slur) is unprofessional. I think it is also unusual. Unfortunately, this is the kind of example the right wing loves to jump on.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. Disppointing no one said anything at the time.

There should be information in your student guide about how to register a complaint about a racist -- not racial -- term.

[Sympthsical]

6. It was a Zoom lecture

I haven't been attending them, because he has them during hours where I have other things going on. But they get recorded and posted. I'm not sure if the other students attending are even allowed to talk during it, because I've never heard anyone. Maybe someone said something in the chat at the time, because the "Don't get me fired" comment came about 45 seconds after he said it.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

18. What is your goal? What outcome do you want?

[Sympthsical]

57. Something along the lines of restorative justice

Just make sure he knows it's not ok, he knows why it's not ok, and to do better.

The college is diverse, and I know there are Black students in the class (student profiles often have pictures). I doubt I was the only one who was thinking, "WTF was that?" I don't want anyone put into uncomfortable positions because of some of his persistent commentary. Not commentary of different ideas or ideology - that's just college. But the hostility to groups and kinds of people.

My overriding sense is wanting to say/let him know. "Hey, there is an actual line here, and you just stepped over it. You need to understand why this was wrong."

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. If you tell him he said something racist, and he deflects or plays it down or doesn't give a shit,

then what?

[Sympthsical]

60. Then note to the administration

And I would let them know my thoughts about it. I wouldn't want to escalate, but if that's what he wants. I'm never interested in imperiling someone's job. I'd be good with someone higher up telling him to knock it off.

[Redleg]

3. Wow- this professor really stepped in sh1t

As a college professor, I can't imagine saying something quite like this in a class or being as overtly partisan as you described. One option you might consider is to quietly speak with the professor about how you perceived the "oreo" comment. I know I would appreciate it if a student were to have a private discussion with me if they felt I crossed the line, especially if I did cross the line. It would be better to tell the professor that the comment made you uncomfortable rather than telling him he's a racist. Perhaps he meant something different than we think about "oreos."

On further thought, if the professor has shown a pattern of making these kinds of comments then perhaps he should be reported (notice the passive voice at the end?).

[Sympthsical]

11. I wouldn't be inclined to call him a racist

It's a class about minority protections and the Constitution. He's very passionate about the topic.

But . . . you know. I think my hesitance comes from his disposition. He's a pretty heated guy in his lectures and commentary, and I'm not seeking to open any kind of can of worms. I've been very, "Just get the A and run," about professors I don't like in the past.

But this man's on his own level, and I've never stopped in my tracks that hard.

After reading your post and another one, I'm thinking maybe I'll make a new e-mail account and send an anonymous note to his faculty e-mail. That way he's confronted, but my grade will be unaffected.

[okaawhatever]

40. Speak w/him after your grade is posted. I imagine you would both benefit from the discussion. An

important point here is that you don’t believe he’s racist. I think leaving the comments with him and not his superiors is the way to go.

2 additional thoughts:

1. You just got a tiny glimpse of what POC have had to deal with for decades.
2. What makes you think a med school or other program wouldn’t accept you if you had all perfect grades but one, when they learned it was due to your standing up for your beliefs? It might even help you get an interview. They’ll be dying to know what happened. 😀

Best of luck to you.

[Redleg]

59. Probably a wise move on your part

God knows I have sometimes said stupid things in class and use curse words from time to time. Teaching can become a bit like a performance where you are in a state of flow and pushing the boundaries to make a point and sometimes you go too far.

[GenXer47]

4. this sort of confrontation gets easier as you age

You're the customer.
Calmly, and with specifics in hand, ask for a private meeting with the Professor or go to office hours.
State pretty much what you've outlined here. He may be happy for the feedback!

[Redleg]

7. Agree in part

I don't agree with the "student as a customer" notion. A student is a customer the same way a gym member is a customer- they have to do the hard work to get in shape, the gym isn't going to do it for them. The professor's responsibility is to create a psychologically safe and effective learning environment and provide opportunities for the students to learn.

I do believe that students should be treated with the dignity and respect due any person. Some professors seem to forget that students have less power in the dyadic relationship and take umbrage at students standing up for themselves and others.

[Beastly Boy]

8. Depends on whether you value political correctness over academic freedom

You have a point to make: your professor offended your sensitivities. He has a point to make: he has rights under his contract with the college.

The college administration doesn't care for either - their job is not to rock the boat rather than critically address your respective concerns.

Your professor has office hours. Make an appointment with him and ask him what he thinks of how academic freedom may or should affect a student's learning experience, or a professor's obligation to deliver it. You may both learn something from it, which is what higher education is all about. Hell, your conversation may even become a nice subject for a term paper.

You can probably guess my view on this, but you are both adults, and neither I nor the college administration are necessary parties to your discussion.

[betsuni]

10. +1

[Sympthsical]

12. He's not offending my sensitivies

I'm staunchly free speech - particularly on colleges.

It's more that it's an inflection point in what has been fairly unprofessional behavior and commentary that has been ongoing all semester. I've been content to roll my eyes at it and share with my partner and friends the highlights of some of his rants, but this felt like a kind of, "Dude, no. You're supposed to be teaching a class here. We're not on Twitter. Knock it off."

You could remove the racial term and find a plethora of reasons for why he's not a good choice to teach the class. This is just where I've reached my "enough already" moment with him.

[Beastly Boy]

17. Questioning a professor's professionalism is a valid theme for a discussion

Passing judgement on it before such discussion takes place is not. The college made a decision on his professionalism when it hired the professor, so you have that going against you. You have a difficult but not an impossible task convincing him to the contrary.

He may be taking advantage of his position, and that is a valid point to raise too, but raising it outside the context of the subject of your class, which I sense is the direction you are contemplating, doesn't promise to be particularly productive, or yield a learning experience for either one of you.

On edit: none of my commentary has anything to do with my politics, which appear to be very opposite to that of your professor. It is a purely academic matter to me.

[Iggo]

39. It's academic freedom to call a black man a double-stuffed Oreo?

Good to know!

[BlackSkimmer]

66. Have you noticed the posters on this thread who think it's ok?

Have you ever seen a thread about Thomas?

I've seen that term thrown around here, along with similar pejoratives, and I'm pretty sure those slinging these words are white.

There's a line of thought on DU that if the person is a republican, then any kind of slur is ok - be it homophobic, misogynistic, or racist.

[old as dirt]

95. It's not just republicans.

One of the things that made the Religion forum here so toxic back in the day was the tendency of the New White Atheist types to attempt to intimidate non-fundamentalist atheists into silence by coming at you with the N-Word if you had any Black folks in your family.

They also liked to hound gay Christian posters and blame them for homophobia.

[Beastly Boy]

74. It may be distasteful, but actually, yes it is.

Not any less so than posting this meme:



or calling someone "a self-hating Jew".

[walkingman]

9. The purpose of education is to foster creative thinking processes through independent thought

and analysis and challenge traditional ideas which you seem to be doing considering your question. So good for you.

How about meet with your professor and tell him of your concerns. Instead of using the racist term "oreo" maybe he could use - flunky, sycophant, groveler, lackey, bootlicker, minion, puppet, etc. All generally mean the same thing but don’t target his race, only his stupidity and total lack of integrity. 😁

[intheflow]

24. The point is Thomas' race.

White people who organize with Blacks are considered race traitors to racists. But in the case of Thomas, he is a race traitor in how how consistently rules against the interests of other Black citizens to uphold white racial power. The other words you listed describe him, but suggesting they are equal in meaning is not true and plays to a “colorblind” view of racism.

[walkingman]

27. Your right - I tend to do that which is not a good thing. I just immediately

go to a non-conflict mindset. Calling someone a "oreo" is basically the same as "Uncle Tom" and is definately sending a message. Maybe it might be better to just say Thomas votes against the interests of his own race instead of using a racist term? I do think in a perfect world race should not be an issue but it is especially when it comes to issues of inequality and historical discrimination.

Your post was very thought provoking. Thanks!

[intheflow]

50. Yeah, white woman walking, here,

and boy howdy! are old habits hard to break. The white impulse to avoid anything uncomfortable or impolite is very, very strong.

[Redleg]

63. "Bootlicker" is my favorite

I also appreciate "lickspittle" and more recently after re-reading some Dostoyevsky, "blackguard." Come to think of it, "blackguard" would not be an appropriate pejorative for Thomas for obvious reasons.

[70sEraVet]

13. Oreo? I've heard it used as a pejorative among blacks, but hadn't really considered it a racial term

I guess in my age bracket, calling a black man an 'Uncle Tom' would be immediately recognized as an offensive racial comment. The 'Oreo' thing seems a bit comical at best.
May be a generational thing.

[robbob]

14. Start a thread on Justice Thomas on this board...

I’m sure you’ll see a lot worse than “Oreo”…

Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea for a professor to post lectures using that kind of language.

[BlackSkimmer]

23. Yup!

Spot on.

[brush]

28. "Oreo" is just a comical term for "Uncle Tom."

They mean the same thing IMO. That coming from a white prof certainly complicates it though. Thread carefully.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Oreo- Black on the outside. White on the inside. It is a pejorative.

[Ms. Toad]

42. From your name, you're slightly older than I am.

I know the term. I'm pretty sure I've known it from the 80s, at the latest. So it's not generational.

It suggests he is black on the outside, white on the inside.

[Celerity]

15. I would arrange a meeting with him and talk to him about your concerns. Having seen your

intellectual skillset via your posts here on DU, I have zero doubt you can effectively flesh out those concerns to the prof without it being seen as a personal attack and/or endangering your grade in the class.

[ananda]

16. A parent in Florida just got a professor fired for talking about racial justice.

Yet when they are overtly racist... we do nothing?

[haele]

19. I would communicate with him personally about it if it really bothers you.

If he prefaced his comment about Thomas with "As black folks would say, Clarence Thomas is..." would that provide a less offensive context?

I also have issues with people using ethnic or racial slurs in an direct attack of another who are not part of that ethnic or racial group - well, except for blondes.
It's in the context of how the word is used. If someone were to say "In my opinion, X is a (slur)" and is not of that community, that is a direct racial, ethnic, or gender based belittling attack.
On edit - While that person has a right to that opinion, it is not conducive to the educational process if it alienates some of your students. Same as at work, slurs degrade the ability to remain professional and can create emotional disruption with co-workers, customers, or students.

If someone were to say, "X's activities could lead those in his/her community to consider him/her a real (slur)", that is more of an observation (no matter how valid) on how X adversely affects the community s/he came from. It similar to saying the slur when discussing literature or a narrative from history in which it was used.
Usage context is very important.

Haele

[LexVegas]

20. You're not ok with what? The term "oreo" when applied to Clarence Thomas? nt

[BlackSkimmer]

22. I've seen that term here in reference to Thomas many times. Along with the "Uncle Tom" pejorative.

I dislike seeing it here, and I certainly would be shocked to hear that from a prof.

Interestingly, I also took a pre-law class in college. Oddly, that was the only class I remember hearing this kind of remark. The professor that taught that class made a joke about children's names that I took to be very racist at the time (late 70s). There were no black students in the class.

I disliked this man, and he was always making off-color remarks so it didn't occur to me to report him. I do remember that many of us did not laugh. I doubt anything would have happened if I had reported him, except for maybe a quiet word in his ear from the administration.

I went to college in the south, but this professor was not from the south. He was very respected in his field with a law degree from a prestigious northeastern school.

I don't know what I would suggest you do. When people use those terms here, I know no one cares because we don't like him.

[intheflow]

25. I've heard many Black people use this term.

Pretty sure it arose from the African American community. I’m white and think it aptly describes Thomas who really does seem to think he’s somehow immune from antiblackness. He married a white woman, he seems to only have white friends, and he consistently gaslights and rules against the interests of the majority Black population in the US. None of the words suggested by someone else upthread express his utter contempt for people who look like him, but oreo says it all.

[LexVegas]

32. ...

[BlackSkimmer]

73. We should pick our friends and love interests based on race?

Wow, I'm learning a lot here today.

[intheflow]

79. No one said that, stop twisting my words.

My post says he thinks he's immune from antiBlackness for the following reasons (plural). Only one of those reasons is that he's married to a white woman, which should be clear from the context of the rest of the sentence that it is in relation to his being a Black man and his own antiBlack views. Alone it means nothing. Taken with everything else in his life, it shows a pattern of racial bias on his part. IOW, he's internalized the systemic racism around him to think he's better than other Black people, which is how he rules from the bench.

[happy feet]

113. You win the thread

[old as dirt]

76. My wife is married to a white man.

And a life-long atheist to boot.

He married a white woman

Is that a problem?

She's been criticized for that before many times by gringos.

Your complaint seems cultural to me.

Ciclo de vida y procesos de formación

[intheflow]

78. Is your wife Black?

If not, you're being purposefully obtuse.

[old as dirt]

80. Yes.

She's afropatiana. Her culture here in America goes back 5 centuries.

Here's a documentary about the history of her culture. (Audio-generated closed captions in the language of your choice.)

Invisibles: Las Guerrillas del Patía

El Mejor Himno Del Mundo Vídeo Oficial del Himno Al Patìa

Himno al Patía cantado en la I.E.A. Capitán Bermúdez, de Patía

[happy feet]

112. Hear hear

[Deuce]

26. In the environment I grew up in, Whites and Non-Whites would call him such...

[inthewind21]

29. Where

do you go to school? That's would be a determining factor how to handle for me.

[MichMan]

30. What would your actions be if he expressed RW partisan positions in the same way?

[LexVegas]

31. More than mild shock that he accurately characterized Clarence Thomas?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. Whew, this fuckin thread

[demmiblue]

45. No kidding. n/t

[BlackSkimmer]

67. I actually timed how long it would take for the first to show up thinking using that term is just

fine and dandy.

It's not dissimilar to calling Graham "Miss Lindsey". Or calling republican women "whores, sluts, b---hes.

[jcboon]

34. It's his job to be partisan and yours to argue with him

If you disagree with your professor you need to provide a logical and intelligent response to his theses.
If you agree with his basic position but don't like the use of a certain expression, then say so--to the professor.
The whole point of this kind of class is finding the truth through dialogue.
At least this professor isn't pretending to be "objective". He has been honest about his biases and students should be challenged to provide arguments that agree or disagree according to their conclusions.
The free exchange of ideas is what college is all about.
Don't ruin the guy's career, he sounds like someone who's doing his job.
If you don't like it, argue with him.

[Redleg]

62. Is it really his job to be partisan?

I know that my own personal values play a role in what I teach, how I teach, and what I research but I think "partisanship" implies that I'm right and the other points of view are wrong. We can and should discuss what the research tells us and we can use the research to promote some debate or discussion about sensitive or complex issues but I don't think we should resort to using terms like "oreo" to make a point.

For example, one of the topics I and others in my discipline discuss in class is that of diversity and inclusion policies and practices in business organizations. I can make a case for why some businesses choose to have such policies and practices, I can tell my students that I personally value diversity and inclusiveness in organizations, but I probably should not tell them that people who don't support such policies are racists.

[Kingofalldems]

35. Got a link on that video?

[Sympthsical]

51. Of course

But I'd have to be insane or stupid to give out information that could lead to people I do not know directly meddling in my education.

So real, real hard pass on that one.

[BlackSkimmer]

37. Took just a few minutes for the DUers who think using these pejoratives is ok to chime in.

Just as I thought.

[Ms. Toad]

61. Surprised, not surprised.

Or perhaps disappointed, not surprised.

It's the same mentality that thinks fat-shaming, gay-shaming, slut-shaming, etc. are perfectly fine if they are directed at a target we hate - combined with appropriating intra-group communications: I've heard my (gay, fat, black, etc.) say such things to each other so it's OK for me (not a member of those groups) to say them to/about someone in one of those groups.

[LexVegas]

64. Its not a bad thing to be fat, gay or a slut. Its bad to be a race traitor.

Are you saying its bad to shame a race traitor?

[Ms. Toad]

70. Using personal characteristics to shame

is hurtful, regardless of the target.

Is it being a race traitor to study hard? Use "proper" English? That is the context in which I first heard Oreo being used as an insult - by my black students against other black students of mine.

People's reasons for engaging in the wide range of activities to which the label Oreo is applied as an insult are complex. Bottom line, it is not something which I, a white person, have a right to call out - especially not with a racialized label.

[BlackSkimmer]

71. Yeah, DUers posting pics of tfg and Putin in leather bondage-wear is all friendly, right?

That's not meant to be an insult, now is it?

[Redleg]

115. It probably wasn't meant to insult the reader

nor any particular category of people. I could be wrong about that. The "oreo" reference seems to be much more targeted at race.

[Just_Vote_Dem]

116. I took that as illustrating Trump being subservient to Putin

I didn't actually see it as insulting to those who practice bondage, but I could be wrong, obviously.

[old as dirt]

97. What is a "race traitor"?

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2023, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Over the centuries, my wife's ancestors have probably killed more white folks than either you or I can imagine.

Does that make me a race traitor for marrying her?

Parentesco, co-parentesco y clientismo en el surgimiento de las guerrillas en el Valle del Patía, 1536 - 1811

by Francisco U. Zuluaga

https://historiayespacio.univalle.edu.co/index.php/historia_y_espacio/article/view/6785/9276 (pdf)

La tozudez y la fiereza con que los guerreros patianos de­fendieron el estandarte realista, entronizaron al Patía y sus gentes en las categorfas de lo más bárbaro, cruel y salvaje que haya podido darse en la historia de Colombia.

---------------------------

The stubbornness and fierceness with which the warriors from Patía defended the royalist banner, enthroned the Patía and its people in the categories of the most barbaric, cruel and savage that could have occurred in the history of Colombia.

son del tuno-popayán

[LexVegas]

101. Clarence Thomas is a race traitor. nt

[old as dirt]

103. That doesn't answer my question, but...

...if that's really the best that you can do for CT, you're just being lazy.

IMNSHO, anyway.

LA VIDA VALE LA PENA l Petrona Martinez l Gerardo Varela

[old as dirt]

65. You should see what some folks here say about my wife's religion.

They just can't deal with the existence of cultures different than their own, so they attack her very identity.

[Ms. Toad]

72. I'm sorry.

I'm less vocal about responding to attacks on majority religions (Christianity, specifically). It would pretty much be a full time job. But I try to address attacks on less common religions.

[old as dirt]

75. The attacks are just white supremacist bullshit.

If we are going to be honest about it.

And they have a long and ugly history, going back centuries.

[old as dirt]

82. Me: Should white atheists attack Black Catholic cultures for their identities?

ChatGPT: No, it is not appropriate to attack any culture or identity based on their race or religion. Such attacks are disrespectful and contribute to a culture of intolerance and division. It is important to respect individuals' beliefs and cultural practices, even if they differ from our own. Instead, we should seek to engage in respectful dialogue and strive for mutual understanding and acceptance. It is also important to recognize that there is diversity within any religious or cultural group, and individuals should not be judged solely on the basis of their group identity. Ultimately, we should work towards building a more inclusive and tolerant society where all individuals are treated with respect and dignity.

[old as dirt]

84. Richard Dawkins declares there are only two sexes as matter of science: 'That's all there is to it'

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/richard-dawkins-declares-there-are-only-two-sexes-as-matter-of-science-that-s-all-there-is-to-it/ar-AA18TXkh

[Ms. Toad]

86. Help me out here -

what's the point of this link?

(I've been locked out of DU with 403 errors for a couple of hours - so I'm still looking at the first two links. This one makes me unhappy, without more explanation.)

[old as dirt]

87. This is the New White Atheism.

They are fundamentalists.

I'm an old-school atheist, not the newfangled variety.

[Ms. Toad]

88. Not much of a scientist

if he doesn't understand basic biology. Science recognizes way more than two biological variations, whether or not one believes in God.

Thanks for the explanation for why you posted it.

[old as dirt]

92. He just happened to show up on the front page of my ie browser just then.

Normally, I wouldn't even bother to click on him or fox news.

[ismnotwasm]

38. I don't think White ppl should do this

The best of us, with with the best of intentions regarding race often fail to understand the deeper damage of racism. I think we should avoid racial epithets. It’s not only cringey, but we never know when we are actively causing harm.
I’d finish the class and then report him

[Lars39]

41. There's video proof.

There doesn’t have to be direct confrontation on your part.
Report it to the department chair and whoever else is over him.

[jcboon]

46. Tnat's right--get the good liberal in trouble

This is why the right-wing gets all the power. It's ok for them to be as partisan AF but let a liberal do it and make make him accountable to the authorities for not being sufficiently liberal.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

47. "Good liberal," Jesus Christ lmao

[jcboon]

48. Did you read the rest of the description of the professor?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

52. I read the entire OP.

[BlackSkimmer]

69. Me too.

Fascinating thread.

[Paladin]

49. Anonymously alert the college administration, as well as the local media.

That "oreo" comment is definitely not proper, even when applied to a dipshit like Thomas. Things will just get worse if that professor is allowed to get away with it.

[Sympthsical]

56. That feels like a lot

I'd much rather allow for course correction than screwing up someone's life. I'm not a fan of the social media approach when humans make a mistake. More of a restorative justice type.

After reading through the thread and everyone's thoughts, I think I'm going to wait until after semester and then have a conversation with him about how the course went.

If that conversation goes terribly, then I will do what any responsible citizen of the internet would do - leave him a terrible Yelp review! (RateMyProfessor).

But seriously, if he's super crazy resistant and sees nothing wrong, then maybe a note to the administration on my way out the door letting them know the class was not great.

[H2O Man]

55. No.

[Polybius]

77. I never say it, but I had no idea it was even a racist term

Conservatives don't use it. I've only heard liberals say Oreo in reference to black conservatives, probably first hearing it way back in the 90's towards Alan Keyes.

I've heard the Asian equivalent a few times as well. Thankfully though, I'm in the clear because I don't say them.

[old as dirt]

81. Me: Should white liberals call Black people like Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas "Oreos"?

ChatGPT: No, using derogatory terms like "Oreos" to describe Black people, regardless of their political beliefs, is disrespectful and inappropriate. It reduces individuals to a simplistic and offensive stereotype based on the color of their skin and their perceived adherence to certain cultural norms. Furthermore, it is important to recognize that there is a wide range of political beliefs and experiences within the Black community, and individuals should not be judged solely on their race or political affiliation. Instead, it is important to engage in respectful and nuanced discussions about differing viewpoints and work towards understanding and collaboration.

[old as dirt]

83. Me: Why does the KKK hate Catholics?

ChatGPT: The KKK (Ku Klux Klan) is a white supremacist hate group that has a history of targeting various groups, including Catholics, Jews, African Americans, and immigrants. The KKK has a history of anti-Catholicism, which dates back to the early 20th century when the group was actively involved in promoting nativism and opposing Catholic immigration to the United States.

At that time, many members of the KKK viewed Catholics as a threat to American values and institutions. They saw Catholicism as a foreign religion that was incompatible with American democracy and believed that Catholic immigrants would be loyal to the Pope rather than the United States.

Furthermore, the KKK was historically Protestant and viewed Catholicism as a rival to their own faith. They also believed that Catholics were part of a vast conspiracy to subvert American institutions and impose their religion on the country.

It's important to note that the KKK's anti-Catholic sentiments are based on unfounded beliefs and are rooted in bigotry and intolerance. In modern times, the KKK has largely faded from public view, but there are still white supremacist groups that espouse anti-Catholic views. However, it is important to reject such views and to work towards building a more inclusive and tolerant society where all individuals are treated with respect and dignity.

[old as dirt]

85. The Story of the Ku Klux Klan in America and in Iowa

https://www.iowapbs.org/iowapathways/mypath/2587/story-ku-klux-klan-america-and-iowa

snip-----

The Klan Moves Into Iowa

The Klan gained strength after the First World War, drawing from white Protestants in small towns and cities. The beginning of a serious movement came in 1920 when a paid recruiter was hired. The Klan appealed to people who believed their beliefs were superior to the beliefs of immigrants, Catholics, Jews or “colored people.” The Klan supported what they called “clean living” and attacked “dope, bootlegging, graft, night clubs and road houses, violation of the Sabbath, unfair business dealings, sex, marital 'goings-on,' and scandalous behavior."

Although the Klan had started in the South, it began to gain strength in the Midwest. There were many followers in Iowa—in Davenport, Sioux City, Waterloo, Ottumwa and Des Moines, among bigger cities. But it had followers in smaller communities too—Centerville, Manly, Cherokee and Red Oak. Several groups opposed the Klan, including the newly formed American Legion, Masons and the Farm Bureau, as well as the NAACP.

In their ceremonial and public occasions, Klan members wore white sheets with peaked hoods. They took on fantastic titles, such as Imperial Wizard, Imperial Kleagle (chief of staff), Grand Goblin (sales manager) and Grand Dragon. They had special names for membership fees (Klectoken). A particular sign of their presence in a community was a burning cross, which they would set up and light in the front yards of those they wanted to frighten.

The Klan’s peak year was in 1924, when they influenced many elections across the country, including an Iowa race for the United States Senate. The Klan helped the campaigns of many school board members, succeeding in electing representatives of their point of view, but in 1926 many of them were voted out.

There were many other ways that the Klan upset people. One was to stride silently in uniform into a church, and deposit money at the altar. One black congregation in Centerville, a coal-mining town in southeastern Iowa, received $100 this way. Many of the church’s members thought that the Klan was their friend after that.

Friend or Enemy?

But one woman, Emma Simms, didn’t think so. Emma wrote to the national office of the NAACP about her concerns. Robert Bagnall, an NAACP official, wrote back to her explaining that the Klan tried to gain favor with some groups, in order to separate them from their allies. Specifically, in Centerville, they tried to separate the blacks and the Jews. They planned to isolate first the Jews and later deal with the blacks. So Emma had a letter she could take and read to people who had been fooled by the gift from the Klan.

In Sioux City in northwest Iowa, some white officials proposed constructing a cemetery solely for colored people. A newspaper editor, J.N. Boyd, wrote to Robert Bagnall at the NAACP, complaining about this proposal. Robert wrote back to him suggesting that the Klan was behind the proposal. He said the black community should protest loudly.

In Des Moines the Klan gained support from some white Protestants in neighborhoods near Italian Catholic and black communities. These Klan supporters feared the cultural and ethnic differences of their new Catholic and black neighbors. The NAACP and Council of Churches joined forces to create Interracial Council in 1924. The council tried to end discrimination in a number of ways, from swimming pools to schools. Some historians think this may have been in response to the activities the Klan was carrying out.

In the little town of Manly in north central Iowa where blacks and Catholics had come to work on the railroads in the years before World War I, the Klan tried to intimidate both groups. Others in the town fought back, ridiculing the Klan. After many years there were strong signs of racial harmony. An example was in 1951 when a black homecoming king and queen, Leroy Dunn and Delores Dunn, were crowned at the high school.

snip------

[Polybius]

89. IMO, professors should not announce or impose their views on students

I don't care if they agree with me. Same with talk-show hosts. Jay Leno is a liberal, but he didn't announce it every night like Kimmel does. He kept you guessing. It's all red-meat to the right.

[hunter]

90. I fought with professors, teaching assistants, everyone...

...and was "asked" to take time off from school twice, which is why it took me nine years to graduate with a four year degree.

Maybe I can blame my family who like nothing more than to fight about politics or religion at the holiday table, but I'd also push back hard against professors who thought making students uncomfortable was an excellent teaching style.

The first time I was asked to take time out from college was for fighting with a teaching assistant. I may have muttered something like "bullshit" about a particular topic he was especially interested in. We got into a somewhat heated discussion and then he started throwing stuff at me. I stood up, he came towards me, caught his foot on the overhead projector cord, causing it to crash onto the floor...

I wasn't allowed to take the final in that class and got a "FAIL" even though I wasn't the one throwing stuff.

So you could have handled it the way I might have then, exclaiming, "OREO??? What the fuck, dude????" in front of the entire class, or you can avail yourself of his office hours, and try to be somewhat diplomatic, which is a skill I learned the hard way, and the only reason I graduated at all.

You can start the serious business of saving the world after you graduate. But that doesn't mean you have to be a pushover until then. Some response is called for but it needs to be measured, not for their sake, but for yours.

[old as dirt]

93. I got suspended for 3 days in high school once for arguing with my math teacher.

I was bored, and a bit of a discipline problem. I've talked to the dean a few years later and he told me that the school is better equipped to handle students like me these days.

In Lola's school in Galindez, where my wife grew up, the math teacher (Wilmer) has a PhD in mathematics, which I really, really like. That would have been cool when I was a kid.

Sur Real - La pedagogía de la corridez (Capítulo completo) (Audio-generated closed captions in the language of your choice.)

60 years ago, Lola's mother, doña Gerardina, was the teacher. She's one of the founding members of Las Cantaoras del Patía.

Profesora Gerardina de Galindez, Municipio de Patia, Cauca

[ForgedCrank]

91. No.

I wouldn't say anything.
You may not like what he said, but as long as they are just opinions, then that's what they should remain.
However, if that ever turned into action, I would take it rather serious and probably confront it.
Think about it this way; His comment was made for the purposes of trying to convince you (the consumer of the lecture) of something. Did his words have what you believe was the desired outcome or effect? Or did it have the exact opposite outcome? Right now, you think a little bit less of everything he says because of it, and that is what happens when you leave hateful people alone to say what they say.
Anyway, that's just my approach toward life in general, this case would be no different.

[Samrob]

94. Nobody's perfect. nt

[betsuni]

96. What does "AOC progressive" mean, exactly?

Could you please answer? There will be no answer. Never.

[old as dirt]

102. Somebody who wants to abolish ICE?

Just a guess.



Do you remember the time that they came for the Mayans?

Interpreting after the Largest ICE Raid in US History. A personal account.

Eric Camayd-Freixas, Ph.D.

Florida International University

snip-------------

Echoing what I think was the general feeling, one of my fellow interpreters would later exclaim: "When I saw what it was really about, my heart sank. . . ." Then began the saddest procession I have ever witnessed, which the public would never see, because cameras were not allowed past the perimeter of the compound (only a few journalists came to court the following days, notepad in hand). Driven single-file in groups of 10, shackled at the wrists, waist and ankles, chains dragging as they shuffled through, the slaughterhouse workers were brought in for arraignment, sat and listened through headsets to the interpreted initial appearance, before marching out again to be bused to different county jails, only to make room for the next row of 10. They appeared to be uniformly no more than 5 ft. tall, mostly illiterate Guatemalan peasants with Mayan last names, some being relatives (various Tajtaj, Xicay, Sajché, Sologüí. . .), some in tears; others with faces of worry, fear, and embarrassment. They all spoke Spanish, a few rather laboriously. It dawned on me that, aside from their nationality, which was imposed on their people in the 19th century, they too were Native Americans, in shackles. They stood out in stark racial contrast with the rest of us as they started their slow penguin march across the makeshift court. "Sad spectacle" I heard a colleague say, reading my mind. They had all waived their right to be indicted by a grand jury and accepted instead an information or simple charging document by the U.S. Attorney, hoping to be quickly deported since they had families to support back home. But it was not to be. They were criminally charged with "aggravated identity theft" and "Social Security fraud" -- charges they did not understand . . . and, frankly, neither could I. Everyone wondered how it would all play out.

snip------------

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/07/14/opinion/14ed-camayd.pdf

Randy Newman - Short People (Official Video)

abUSed: The Postville Raid Trailer

De Facto Deportees

[betsuni]

104. Oh, like voting against something for funding ICE when it didn't fund ICE.

[old as dirt]

109. I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps you can explain?

The Music Man "Ya Got Trouble"

Willy Garcia - Una Bacana (Video Oficial) | Salsa Romántica

Bill Clinton on Illegal Immigration at 1995 State of the Union

The law that broke US immigration

Drop the I-Word. Don't Feed the Hate Machine

Part II: Interference with Humanitarian Aid

Footage of Border Patrol Vandalism of Humanitarian Aid, 2010-2017

Border Crossings: A Deadly Desert - The Wall

[old as dirt]

114. Another answer.

There are many possible answers. Here's another one.

Could you please answer? There will be no answer. Never

https://hiplatina.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-on-struggling-with-spanish/

I Can Totally Relate to AOC’s Struggle With Spanish Fluency

One of the things I’ve always appreciated about Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is how relatable she could be sometimes. On Thursday, the Congresswoman tweeted about doing an interview in Spanish about the Green New Deal on Univision Nueva York. She kept it real about how even though she grew up speaking Spanish, she still finds herself struggling when it comes to fluency.

“I’m really proud of this interview!” She tweeted. “Growing up, Spanish was my first language — but like many 1st generation Latinx Americans, I have to continuously work at it & improve. It’s not perfect, but the only way we improve our language skills is through public practice. #Palante.”

I have to admit, that I really appreciated that tweet. Being a first-generation Latina myself, I also grew up with Spanish being my first language. My abuelos lived one floor above my parents and I, so I was constantly exposed to the language. But once they moved out to Florida and I started going to school, I started speaking it less and eventually got comfortable communicating with my parents in English.

Like many non-fluent Spanish speaking Latinas, I definitely experienced a fair amount of shaming growing up by the Latinx community. My peers would often tell me I wasn’t “Latina enough” because I didn’t speak Spanish fluently and I didn’t have an accent. This impacted me a lot in terms of identity and feeling Latina enough but eventually, I learned that it doesn’t matter how much Spanish you speak or don’t speak — none of that determines your Latiniad! Now I have zero problems clapping by at the ignorant haters.

snip--------

https://hiplatina.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-on-struggling-with-spanish/

[tishaLA]

98. I find it unfortunate to see progressive using terms like Oreo and Uncle Tom

and various related phrases depending on the ethnicity of the person they're offended by. In my own teaching, I have used historically accurate terms when discussing black folks in that context and have even taught Chappelle and Sarah Silverman skits that necessitated using those terms in contemporary vernacular (I've had students object and we made it part of classroom discussion about the parameters of speech, context, etc.), but IMO using those loaded racist terms to dismiss someone is beyond the pale.

I also believe based on many years of experience that professors like to read papers that directly confront their ideas and attempt to prove them wrong (it means their ideas merit serious discussion), so if you have a legitimate argument in favor of originalism, I'd say do it even though IMO you'd be absolutely wrong.

It's probably worth having a discussion with the professor. Tell him you find that terminology offensive and in line with "Uncle Tom," "Banana," "Coconut," etc. I'm sure he'd listen respectfully. (for the record, I've called whatshisname a fascist, a white nationalist, and a Nazi surrogate--as well as a motherfucker--in class and I've never heard any objections, but I'd be attentive if I had because I have stepped over the line in the past and took the criticism onboard.)

[treestar]

99. weight the whole course against this one mistake

the term has a specific meaning. Why can't he use it for that specific meaning? This idea that certain people can't use certain words based on their race is doesn't makes real, improved outcomes for nonwhite people. How should he have put it? He could use it had he been black?

You want to punish that professor for using that term?

This is the kind of thing that gives Republicans votes they shouldn't get. It's bad messaging. There are still a lot of white voters out there who should vote for Democrats based on their interests, but who would read this stuff and roll their eyes and wonder if the left is sane. Before you start pompously announcing you don't care what racists think - if you are going to assign all those voters to that category and you don't need them, well, republicans are going to win - to the detriment of nonwhite people (and most white people too would they realize it). At least keep that term for KKK and the like, not to every white person, the vast majority of whom will make such errors sometimes. It really trumps all else, health care and the rest?

[hunter]

108. Being "nice" or "reasonable" won't make the world a better place.

Give a racist or fascist an inch and they'll take a mile. You've always got to push back. It's the extent of the push back we're arguing about.

"Messaging" is a fucking wishy-washy term. Trash it.

"Color blind" white people are a greater threat to society than overtly racist people because there are a hell of a lot more of them.

I might tell an overt racist to "Fuck Off!" and do what I can to get them dis-employed from professions where they do great harm (teaching, policing, etc.) but I'm still going to confront the more insidious sorts of racism, if only by respectful conversation, as appropriate.

Once upon a time I wrote a well-researched term paper that was basically a big "FUCK YOU!" to the professor, society, and humanity in general. The professor gave me an "F" as my final grade in the class. I literally stormed into his office as soon as I got my grades.

He immediately disarmed me with a twinkle in his eye and said something like "Chill out, Hunter, sit down, I'm giving you a B-"

We talked a bit, and just as I was leaving I asked him what grade I would have had if I hadn't come to speak with him. He told me he'd have left it as a fail.

Lesson learned. After that I always made some effort to get along with my teachers, even when I disagreed strongly with them, or the academic discipline in general.

Whenever I wasn't trying to be invisible (something I learned in middle school and high school to avoid physical assaults) I could be a horrible, judgmental, hothead. (Or a hot mess, depending on circumstances..) That's probably never going to change. Eventually I decided to put the flame thrower down, most of the time, anyways. I didn't want to be that guy.

My politics are practical but I still don't give a fuck what Republicans think. The pasty white "Independents" and "Libertarians" who always vote Republican are hardly any better. Nor are the "Leftist" spoilers.

I keep hoping Trump will be the end of the Republican Party, that the blinders will come off, but it's apparent they haven't hit bottom yet. We can't save them from their own stupidity, but it's our duty to protect ourselves and all those they torment.

[treestar]

110. the devout Republicans, yes

but they get somewhere with the "independents" in the middle who don't know much but when they year this kind of thing, think the left is crazy. And there are plenty of them. Just enough to keep republicans in power.

We could get a lot more of them if we quit doing things like this.

[hunter]

111. I'm literally a crazy leftist radical environmentalist. Browse through any of my DU posts.

I don't in any way represent the official platforms of the Democratic Party.

From my perspective Obama and Biden and Kamala Harris and Hillary Clinton are extremely competent centrists. Yet here I am. I voted for all of them. The first presidential campaign I enthusiastically supported was Jimmy Carter's. And I wasn't his kind of Christian.

I have a knife scar on my arm that always reminds me not to say the first damned thing that pops into my head in any face-to-face confrontation. Got that scar when I was a wild young thing, in my early twenties. If I ever glance down at that scar in a tense situation then someone is going to run. I don't go anywhere wearing shoes I can't run in, I put them on first thing out of bed in the morning and might wear them all night as I did when I was a homeless guy, if my wife would tolerate it.

Sometimes I feel bad about those times I haven't run. I've hurt people, I've burned many bridges behind me. Once upon a time I punched my dad in the face and vanished. Later, he took me back. I didn't know then but it was a family tradition. He and his pa had both done the same. So had my mom's dad. The very old people in the small town my mom's dad grew up in still talk about him.

Raising my own children I didn't romanticize any of that shit as my parents did. I didn't want to be punched in the face.

Here in my sixth decade of life on this planet I like to believe I've developed some social skills. After all, nobody has killed me yet. Darwinian natural selection. I am by natural inclination, and some formal training, an evolutionary biologist. Those knives that have scarred me could have hit my heart.

Nevertheless I'm not confident there are all that many "independents" in the middle string, sitting on the fence, not enough to make a difference anyways. I suspect we'd make better ground stuffing the racists and fascists back into their closets. Trump empowered them all to let their inner assholes out.

How do we fix that?

[treestar]

117. I'm talking about middle of the road voters

or swing voters, who end up deciding elections. They aren't racists except if you count stuff like this. Just ordinary white people trying to make a living, not paying much attention to politics, except every 4 years near the election, when the Republicans can then bring out these stories to describe academia as if it is like that all the time.

[ecstatic]

100. This is just my opinion, but we put up with a lot for the greater good

If we punished everyone who said something cringy or inappropriate, there'd be no one left to stand with us. There'd be no Biden. There'd be no democratic nomination of Hillary Clinton. The list goes on and on. Personally speaking, I think it's important to consider intentions--whether someone is trying to be offensive or hurtful. For example, in my opinion, Bernie Sanders has made a lot of statements that suggest his worldview is based on stereotypes. For me, it's annoying; however, I know he means well. From a common sense perspective, nobody is perfect. Nobody. Everyone makes mistakes. The question is, are they willing to make changes when called out? Or do they dig their heels in and continue to be offensive?

It sounds like you had an issue with him even before hearing that comment. In my opinion, there has to be a way to communicate that his commentary makes you uncomfortable without throwing him under the bus. I don't know if you've noticed, but we are at war right now. Women and minorities are being stripped of rights at a record pace. This is due to right wing justices taking over our justice system. If there's anything we can do to stop the slide into fascism, we all need to be doing our parts. At the end of the day we need more liberal professors, not less.

Just my opinion, and if anyone doesn't like it, oh well.

[Marthe48]

105. If you discuss with the prof

or whether you don't, keep in mind that when we criticize a person, criticize their work, their effort, their ability, but leave personal digs out of the comments. The prof diminished his lessons by making the comment. The comment might reflect on the pretend judge's personal outlook and how it affects his pretend rulings, but it doesn't reflect on his pretend education or pretend experience.

[Hortensis]

106. Not "one mistake," a constant stream. Basic classes should provide

a high-quality foundational understanding of principles and practices to build on -- not a narrow indoctrination of self-indulgent selections from a limited mind. Students will provide that for themselves, or expand their scope as suits, in their choices of more advanced classes and readings as their own ideas firm up.

Imo, moving on to work he's more suited to and where he'll do no harm is not exactly a tragedy. Blogging would help make up for any loss of his audience.