There have been no school massacres ....

[babylonsister]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/3/29/2160877/-There-have-been-no-school-massacres

There have been no school massacres ....
Mustellus
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Wednesday March 29, 2023 · 11:15 AM EDT
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… using hand grenades. While hand grenades are clearly ‘arms’, and can be ‘carried’, and therefore fall under the second amendment, they are illegal. While they might take out an entire classroom at once.. no one is using them.

There have been no school massacres using pipe bombs. Same reason. Pipe bombs clearly fall under the second amendment, but have been made illegal.

There have been no school massacres using shoulder fired recoilless rifles. These would be effective even from across the street from the school, and are clearly covered by the second amendment, but are illegal.

Oh by the way.. howitzers are a bit harder to ‘carry’, but would be very effective in school massacres. Private ownership of a howitzer is illegal.

So since we have totally gutted the Second Amendment.. why not make assault rifles illegal too?

[SYFROYH]

1. Looks like they just made the case for legalizing hand grenades.

[Bear Creek]

16. They think

They have the right to any and all military weapons including nuclear. They view doing anything for example stealing from the government as alright since their rights are being violated.

[SYFROYH]

22. Most are fine with the current line of legal semi-auto firearms.

There are the fringe-types though

[Bear Creek]

24. Not fringe

They really believe that they are owed the right to any and all military weapons. Most of them are from the military.

[SYFROYH]

26. I don't think most gun owers are military, not from my interactions in the shooting community

And the military folks who own guns are mostly not fringe.

[Jedi Guy]

41. I'm not sure who you're talking to, but...

I've never had a "gunner" or other advocate of the Second Amendment say they should be legally allowed to possess any and all military weapons, including nuclear weapons. If you search long and hard enough, particularly on the Internet, you might find someone taking that stance, but I'd be inclined to believe they're trolling. If they're not trolling, they're clearly very mentally unstable if those are the kinds of assertions they're making.

I'm from Arizona, which is still the Wild West compared to a lot of blue states. For instance, concealed carry is legal without a permit in Arizona, at least last I knew. I've never had a fellow Arizonan say to me with a straight face that they should be allowed to own a nuclear weapon. The ones I've spoken to are fine with things as they stand, such as being able to own AR-15s and similar.

And that, of course, is the current zone of contention. But no reasonable person thinks every man Jack should be able to have a nuke parked in his living room for home defense.

[lapfog_1]

2. argued the other way

if hand carried is all that matters... why not make the following thing "legal"

You might not have realized they ever made A-bombs small enough for one man to carry, but they did. They had one called the W54 that fit into a duffel bag. It was less than a tenth as powerful as “Little Boy” the one dropped on Hiroshima a quarter-century earlier, but without benefit of you being able to fly away in an airplane before it goes off.

Using this you won't have to worry about there being any gross pictures of children shot to literal pieces... the entire school will disappear in a small mushroom cloud... hell the many blocks near the school will be flattened like a pancake.

Weapons of war... any weapon of war, does not belong in the hands of deranged people...

We have problems enough with deranged people like Vlad pooty-poot.

[plimsoll]

12. I've argued this for years,

and the verbal gymnastics you get from the second amendment absolutist crowd can be rather entertaining. None of the arguments for allowing the unregulated sale of "modern hunting rifles*" can't be applied to thermonuclear devices, but the 2nd amendment folks know that their special brand of intimidation won't work if the victim is prepared to send themselves and everyone else around them into the great unknown.

But seriously, I'd only use it for self defense.


*that particular piece of sophistry is almost an admission that you want to hunt people.

[WalkerinSC]

34. I've come around somewhat on guns

Not on bans per se but regulations regarding types of ownership. I grew up in a different era with guns. My county (Greenwood, SC) had a school shooting that killed a young girl, a janitor, and I believe one other in the 80's. Even with that going on there wasn't a push to ban guns or such. My school had a week long gun safety course that spent 3 days going over gun safety, handling, responsibilities, cleaning, break down, and more. The last day we went out and live fired shotguns at clay targets. We were 12-14 years old. Maybe we need a nationwide return to firearms safety training. As part of it, a requirement to pass the class personally own a firearm starting at 18. 18 year olds would be allowed bolt actions, lever actions, pump actions, and single shot rifles and shotguns. No exceptions. You can sign up for a certified course which includes picture ID and fingerprints for free up to 21 years of age. After that you pay for it at a reasonable cost that is tax deductible. At 21 you can take an advanced course that upon completion allows for handguns and semi autos rifles. It would have a 10 rd capacity limit. These guns will be registered at the county level. Any modification or use of them by anyone for criminal purposes opens the owner to civil and criminal penalties. Anything above those guns (large mags, bump stocks, trigger mods) than falls under a revision of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

[Hope22]

66. ...and we could call it Basic Training! n/t

[SYFROYH]

19. The weapons of war argument falls apart

Almost all significant designs in firearms were designed for or used in the military.

Muskets, revolvers, lever action repeaters, pump shotguns, bolt-action rifles, semi-auto pistols and rifles, and of course, machine guns (fully automatic) etc. Each iteration after muzzle-loading rifles were designed to increase the effective rate of fire.

And now the US military is beginning to phase out fully automatic versions of the AR because they aren't effective enough. It's become obsolete as a weapon of war.

[WalkerinSC]

35. Fully auto is a waste outside of suppression fire

I believe the current use is 3 rd burst. Fully auto tends to lead soldiers to hold the gun over head from cover and "spray and Pray". If I am correct (and please correct me if I am wrong) outside of a platoon machine gunner and some forward operating units, the Wehrmacht overran most of Europe, Africa, and Eastern Russia in WWII with bolt action rifles as the standard infantry rifle. Honestly, unless in an alleyway or house, I would rather face full squad with autos in open field warfare than a trained squad with bolt actions and one auto for suppressing fire.

[SYFROYH]

36. The M16A2, issued in the 1980s, had 3-round burst, but...

... they did away with it in later iterations.

[jmowreader]

64. M16 family variants

M16A0: the original rifle. Has triangular handguards, non-chromed barrel and chamber, carrying handle containing the rear sight molded into the upper receiver casting, safe-semi-full auto selector switch, rifling 1 twist in 12 inches (1:12). Fires 55-grain bullets. Carrying handle used only by armorers to put the rifle into storage racks. Rear sight has to be turned by depressing a little button with a pointy object like a bullet. Front sight is in a post that also contains the gas-scavenging port which allows the rifle to cycle. Sold to the Army as a self-cleaning rifle so no cleaning kits were issued with it, leading lots of troops to write home asking cleaning kits be sent to them. Troops quickly discovered the self-cleaning rifle thing was a lie.

M16A1: Two huge differences between this rifle and the A0: it has a chromed barrel and chamber, and it not only comes with a cleaning kit but also a little compartment in the buttstock to put it in.

M16A2: This was the first rifle to feature Burst rather than Full Auto mode. Has round handguards rather than triangular ones, which gives two big advantages - troops with small hands could more easily grip the forearm, and armorers need to stock only one replacement handguard half. Handguard retaining ring modified to make it easier to get the handguards on and off. Has a neat little metal wedge cast right behind the ejection port to deflect empty brass away from the shooter, which makes the rifle easily usable by both right-handed and left-handed firers. Rifling twist rate increased to 1 to fire the heavier NATO-standard SS109 cartridge, which the Army calls M855. Buttstock made ten times stronger using more modern plastic resins, and made to exactly the same pattern as the old one so an armorer could replace the A1 buttstock with the superior A2 buttstock. Pistol grip made better with a little notch for your middle finger and a grippier surface; this would also fit on your M16A1. The rear sight is now adjusted with a tool-free knob, which is great for quickly zeroing your rifle and even greater when you have an asshole company commander who requires the armorer to center all the rear sights on the rifles in the arms room so everything will look the same.

M16A3: Created for Navy SEAL teams who liked everything about the A2 but the three-round burst trigger group. Made by changing the trigger group back to the A1 group. All else remains the same.

M16A4: Basically the same rifle as the A2, this replaces the carrying handle with a Picatinny rail so you can attach things like optical sights to the rifle. The front sight post remains as it's required for the action to work. An accessory carrying handle with iron rear sight is available if your unit is too cheap to buy optics. Most AR15s on the civilian market are patterned after this rifle.

M4: M16 receiver fitted with shorter barrel and collapsible stock to make the weapon shorter and easier to handle.

M27: Used only by the Marines and Navy SEALs - Osama bin Laden was killed with one of these - the M27 is basically an M16A1 lower receiver mated to an upper receiver using Heckler and Koch's short-stroke piston and operating-rod action coupled to an M16-style bolt.

[SYFROYH]

37. The M16A2, issued in the 1980s, had 3-round burst, but...

... they did away with it in later iterations.

[Scrivener7]

3. That is a great point.

[AndyS]

4. There is a compromise . . .

Put all semi autos under the 1934 National Firearms Act. That's the one that regulates full autos and explosives like the ones you're discussing. We can still buy full auto guns but it takes a $200 tax and a background check that takes a year or more and they must be registered with the ATF.

My suggestion would be to simply update the $200 fee to account for inflation since 1934 (about $2200) and put them under the NFA. Make it retroactive . . .

[Richard D]

8. So logical

And practical. This should be the direction we take.

[uponit7771]

9. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

[Ligyron]

33. This is the point I've been trying to make here for some time.

IOW why a ban on "assault" rifles, whatever the hell those are, ones that look like military gear I guess, is useless without eliminating the semi auto function.

As long as you can release a round as fast as you can pull the trigger, Grandpa's 30/06 deer rifle can kill just as many just as fast as those make believe, "assault" rifles can. Getting rid of 30 round clips does help though.

[Redleg]

47. I doubt that most shooters can fire a bolt action 30/06 as quickly and accurately

as a semi-auto AR-15. I agree with the point about the magazines.

[Ligyron]

51. I was thinking of like an M1 Garand, but I really picked the wrong caliber and example here.

You're right, Gramps would almost certainly have a bolt action deer rifle.

I was just making the point, badly, that there are plenty of semi auto rifles capable of as much mayhem as any so called make believe "assault" rifle available to civilians.

[Grins]

38. Disagree.

No automatics of any kind. Like the British:
- Shotguns for sport shooting/hunting,
- Single shot rifles for hunting and sport shooting
- NO handguns - Period!

Year or so ago, because of a story on CBS News, I looked at this another way. Because I don't think I should have to pay taxes for something that has no benefit to the public.

Not a $200 "fee," but a very legal and common - property tax.

I looked at the costs of "hardening" all the public schools in a state per year. In my case, Maryland, and came up with a number.
(Annual Costs of Guns)/(Number of guns in MD).

The "tax" came to about $2,400 per year, per gun. Got 4 guns? $9,600 per year.
With the revenues going to pay the now-public expense for safety from - gun owners.

And I'm sure the Freedumb-loving 2 Amendment gun-humpers would be more than glad to pay that tax...being "patriots" n' all!

Hey! It worked with tobacco!

[erronis]

48. Might need to update the 1934 NFA. How about home-manufactured (3D) automatic weapons?

Personally, I don't see how you can deal with the incredible variety of weapons-of-murder with licenses and regulations.

Several more-civilized societies (UK, Autstralia, others) have done a good job of getting illegal weapons out of circulation. Still can't control all of the crazies but we could limit the number of existing weapons.

[ancianita]

6. OTOH, consider legal Flamethrowers. Legal and unregulated in all states but CA.

Not covered by 2A. Yet they are arms that one may buy and bear.


There is no logic to what we as a nation are up against, except for the line of reasoning used in the landmark ruling by SCOTUS in favor of the Sandyhook families within their state's commerce law.

https://ctmirror.org/2019/11/12/u-s-supreme-court-allows-sandy-hook-suit-against-remington-to-advance/

[Evolve Dammit]

17. I always wanted one of those. Just to impress friends at BBQ's mostly...

[ancianita]

27. Elon Musk's company, Boring, sold out all theirs -- $4 Million bucks worth.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/01/elon-musks-boring-company-sells-all-of-its-flamethrowers.html

Another brand, napalm compatible.
https://throwflame.com/products/xl18-flamethrower/

[Evolve Dammit]

55. It's actually really disgusting that such weapons exists, all kidding aside. "Napalm compatible???"

[ancianita]

58. Of course it is. The country is sickened because of all this. We joke to keep from depression.

[Evolve Dammit]

61. Absolutely true. Dark humor has kept me alive for decades. Don't know if you saw "Morning Joe" today

but Mike Baranacle basically said "we have failed as a nation" (gun violence,mostly) Worth a look if you have time. I found it to be spot on.

[ancianita]

29. XL18 -- Just for you.

[Evolve Dammit]

54. Whoa. That's a bit excessive! I was just thinking of getting briquets going fast..

[ancianita]

57. It's reality. You said you wanted to impress folks at your BBQ, so that's what it looks like.

[Evolve Dammit]

62. I was thinking of a smaller flame. Much smaller! Plus the petrol would be incompatible with food, so

I guess my fantasy comes to an end. I'm ok with that!

[ancianita]

63. Hahahahahaha you don't know 'bout no flamethrowers! EV, you're adorable.

Thing is, those who love these weapons are dead serious. But wth, let's have the moment!

[Evolve Dammit]

65. Saw one in a wooden crate at surplus store back in the 80's. My wife was not down with the purchase!

[BunnyMcGee]

59. Mass murder of mosquitoes and gnats

[erronis]

49. I expect to see some concealable laser weapons in the near future.

More than cause retinal damage - be able to take out a swath of incoming zombies.

Shit. I lie awake at night enough already thinking of the end-times. And hoping for those end-times for all of the other cretins....

[Cherokee100]

7. What happens

What happens to all the Ar's if/when Putin takes over? They all go away.

[multigraincracker]

10. Yet the NRA has no problem

with Putin money.

[IronLionZion]

11. Gun sales tend to increase after each mass shooting

They love using the threat of making them illegal to get more money. Which is all the more reason to make them illegal.

9/11, drug cartels, gangs, etc. are used for all sorts of racist policies. But mass shootings can happen anywhere at anytime by any asshole with a gun, yet no action on limiting access to these deadly weapons. Because we have to ignore "well regulated militia" and focus on "shall not be infringed" despite the OP weapons being illegal.

[onecaliberal]

13. Too bad Putin won't allow any gun regulation in America.

[xocetaceans]

14. It's too bad that the author did not carefully consider each of the points that were to be made.

Though I completely agree with the removal of all assault-style weapons from the streets of the US, it would be nice if people tried to compose better arguments. Better arguments are made if all or any of one's points cannot immediately be shown to be demonstrably false. If one thinks back to Columbine, pipe bombs were the least of what was brought in the way of explosives.

For any who don't recall, please consult the following article:

Columbine was packed with bombs

By Peggy Lowe
Denver Post Staff Writer

Feb. 14 - Their arsenal was even more menacing than authorities reported.

When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold launched their attack on Columbine High School their store of weapons included 95 explosive devices - enough firepower to wipe out their school and potentially hundreds of students.

Forty-eight carbon dioxide bombs, or "crickets." Twenty-seven pipe bombs. Eleven 1 1/2-gallon propane containers. Seven incendiary devices with 40-plus gallons of flammable liquid. Two duffel bag bombs with 20-pound liquefied-petroleum gas tanks.

This horrifying inventory and other details were made public last week when Littleton Fire Department chiefs revealed the teen killers' deadly depot of bombs to Gov. Bill Owens' Columbine Review Commission.

"I look at Columbine High School as a true act of domestic terrorism," said Rick Young, an investigator and bomb technician.

...

https://extras.denverpost.com/news/shot0214a.htm

[babylonsister]

39. The author may have been

appealing to people's short attention spans.

[MyOwnPeace]

15. But there have been NO school shootings since TUESDAY!

I'm thinking that the RepubliQans' "Thoughts & Prayers" are working!

[Redleg]

18. I think they should legalize howitzers for concealed carry

LOL. I couldn't resist, as a former army field artilleryman.

[Orrex]

23. Is that a Howitzer in your pocket, or...

[former9thward]

20. There was a school massacre using bombs.

So that sentence in the OP is false. In fact it was one of the worst or the worst school massacre. 38 students killed and 6 adults. Bath Elementary School in Michigan on May 18, 1927.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Wednesdays]

28. You don't hear about the Bath Massacre much

in part because Lindbergh's flight took place just three days after that, and buried the event in the news.

[Crepuscular]

31. ...

The Columbine killers had both pipe and propane bombs, most of which fortunately did not detonate.

[iluvtennis]

21. +++ agree. Assault rifles should be BANNED. n/t

[CaptainTruth]

25. Don't forget shoulder-fired missiles.

There are lots of videos from Ukraine showing how destructive they can be, especially the ATGM (anti-tank guided missile).

[wryter2000]

30. The second amendment was written so states could raIse militias

People had to bring their own guns. So, if guns were illegal, the state couldn't raise a militia. The founders didn't want a standing army.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

32. 1927 school bombing remains US DEADLIEST school massacre

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1927-bombing-remains-americas-deadliest-school-massacre-180963355/

[dlk]

40. Machine guns are illegal

No one is crying “infringement.”

[sarisataka]

44. There are a few hoops

But all it takes is time, money and a clean background to own a machine gun.

Form 4 - Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm (ATF Form 5320.4)
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-tax-paid-transfer-and-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204

[dlk]

45. No one is crying infringement with those protections in place

They protect the public.

[sl8]

56. As long as the firearm was on the registry before the registry was closed in 1986.

I don't see how that's much different than a ban with grandfather clause.

[keithbvadu2]

42. 1+

[RANDYWILDMAN]

43. Gun COMPANIES have more power then voters

kinda the definition of corporate fascism

[W T F]

46. Nuclear Weapons are "Arms" too

Where’s the second amendment people when you need them?

[The Jungle 1]

50. If you believe the radical right and...

their interpretation of the @nd I should be allowed to buy a stinger missile.
I checked walfart has them on back order.

[Mustellus]

52. Yes, that was (is) me.

Thank you for all those who went out and found single exceptions to my rant. Making something illegal does not stop its availability. It just makes it harder to find and more expensive. If you could go through your local Beer Drive- Through, and pick up a 12 pack of hand grenades, they would be used more often. And even making AR-15 illegal will not stop school massacres. In other countries the deranged use knives, and only hurt a handful of people before they are too tired to catch the next victim.

My point is ... .when an ammoholic bleats out Second Mendment shall not be infringed, inform him/her of all the infringements written into US law.

[babylonsister]

53. Hello there and

thanks for checking in and writing this; it hit a nerve.

[AverageOldGuy]

60. No school massacres . . .

. . . in fact, not even one death, from a book.