Lonely People

[H2O Man]

U.S. Surgeon General Vuvik Murthy gave a major talk about the epidemic of loneliness last week. He serves as a strong reminder why we need to elect as many Democratic candidates in 2024. I've had family and friends contact me to say what a great job Murthy did in documenting this growing unhealthy social reality.

There was a time when social isolation was largely considered an issue with the rural elderly. But, as Paul McCartney noted, it involves people living in urban settings. It is not uncommon for people to not know their neighbors in apartment buildings. I'm old enough to remember LBJ's War on Poverty, and Reagan's War on Poor People.

Murthy confirme much of what we already know. It is painful to hear the statistics for teenaged boys and girls today. Adolescence is by nature a confusing time. One tries to answer the question, "Who am I?" and "What am I supposed to do?" No more pretending to be Michael Jordan when playing basketball, as some did in childhood. (In my day, it was cowboys and Indians, though I preferred being Sonny Liston.)

Murthy notes some of the factors relating to individuals having a sense of resiliency. In the long course of human history, "resilience" has been the rule, not the exception. Resilience theory focuses on the human ability to respond to adversity, frustration, and misfortune in either healthy or unhealthy ways. This may remind some about the concept of internal and external locuses of control, a topic I have posted about numerous times here.

A healthy sense of resiliency is something we see in the Netflix series "Chimp Empire." It overlaps the individual and group. It is what brought this country through the Great Depression, WW2, the Sixties, etc. But the lose of resiliency -- correlates directly with the numbers of people who self-identify as victims, overlapping with an external locus of control -- can been seen in what Australian psychiatrist Nick Haslam accurately calls the "concept creep" that blurs the meaning of words such a "trauma."

There is a list, for example, of ten experiences associated with the lives of adolescent school shooters. Some indeed can cause actual trauma, while others do not. Having four or more of these puts a kid -- and it's almost always a white male -- at a much higher risk of such violence. More, there are even more kids that endure these same experiences, that won't commit a school shooting. And those with resiliency tend to become strong adults

There are a list of qualities that adult mass shooters -- another group that is primarily white males -- tend to share. Childhood trauna can be among them, although it has a much closer association with individual and/or less-than-mass shootings, the use of knives, etc. Adult mass shootings tend to be rooted in things other than trauma: racism, being fired from a job, the death of a loved one, and/or divorce or the break-up of a relationship.

None of these cause real, long term trauma in and of themselves -- unless the death of a loved one was violent, unexpected, and witnessed. Having a loved one die obviously is tough, and can result in sadness and depression. That is natural. Being fired from a job or getting divorced can be upsetting, but does not cause trauma. Recognizing that there are more non-white people in the country is not traumatic, though it clearly upsets some individuals.

Encountering rude people -- even the aggressively rude -- in the parking lot is not a cause of trauma. Witnessing people shot, being shot, or having a loved one killed in that same parking lot can cause actual trauma. As noted on page 36 of "The Violence Project: How to STOP a Mass Shooting Epidemic," the "elasticity of the term diminishes the experience of people who have experienced true trauma."

Until our society increases its resiliency, two things will happen: first, there will continue to be mass shootings, and second, too many good people will fail to see it is up to us to put an end to it.

[cilla4progress]

1. Very thoughtful post,

as always.

❤️

[H2O Man]

2. Thank you!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. I disagree with you here:

Until our society increases its resiliency,

I'd argue that building a world that reduces trauma by reducing restrictions on care, help and resources is a lot more useful and achievable than increasing resiliency. We all have a different capacity for resilience based on a variety of factors, and already people who are marginalized are disproportionately expected to show resilience. Focusing on "increasing" it across "society" moves too far into the "tough it out" mentality that can lead to these issues in the first place.

[Act_of_Reparation]

4. I'll second that.

[H2O Man]

5. That's good.

I always respect your opinion, and never expect everyone to agree with me. Indeed, that is an essential part of resiliency -- not being offended by differing opinions. This can lead to meaningful discussions, where as closed minds can only result in a stuffy atmosphere.

I suppose the starting point would be what one defines as "trauma." My cousin has trauma, as the result of him and his son being shot, and his son dying in his arms. That was a hard time for me, but it would be that leakage of definitions I mentioned to claim it could possibly have caused trauma for me. I could list many more examples to illustrate what I think is the abuse of a word that has a specific meaning, but I must go to the grocery stor. I'll be back this afternoon.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. .

I suppose the starting point would be what one defines as "trauma."

I would say a person doesn't need to "define" trauma, because doing so then leads to thinking about resources/compassion/understanding as something some people deserve and others don't.

We are all wired differently and so have a different "pool" of resilience on which to draw. And our vast spectrum of experience will change that pool in countless different ways. A sensitive child raised with warm, supportive parents will have that pool drawn from rarely, and filled often. A sensitive child raised with loving but stand-offish parents will have a different experience. A sensitive child in an abusive environment will find that pool exhausted early, and the child will look for ways to survive without that pool. And in each of these examples, a child who isn't particularly sensitive but takes things as they come will experience those three different childhoods differently as well.

So to define a trauma and expect that definition to apply equally doesn't make sense. A child whose loving parent dies in an accident will experience that loss differently than the child whose abusive parent dies in an accident. A child whose loving parent hits them for whatever will have to draw on their resilience differently than a child who is used to being hit. A child whose comfort blanket is accidentally thrown away will experience that differently in the moment and over time than one whose comfort blanket is thrown away maliciously and with relish.

And these differences expand and multiply over time. As a child grows, the emotional and social tendrils they have to make connections with others are pruned, nurtured, chopped, trained, tied off, tied up, whatever metaphor you want to use. Connection is what drives us, and every one of us wants to connect, even if every attempt at connection has up until that point been rebuffed or ridiculed or met with indifference. Trauma will derail that in different ways. Which is why, for me, not getting hung up on the definition of "trauma" and recognizing that every single person is dealing with some kind of trauma is the way to go.

[H2O Man]

15. Undefined words are

stumbling blocks to understanding and meaninful conversation. Thus, when the ancient philosopher Confucius was asked what he would do if granted total political power, he responded he would insist people use words correctly.

[malthaussen]

24. There's a problem, here.

There are a couple of problems, here.

One problem is that the struggles through which some people go are deprecated, and another is that the struggles through which some other people go are exaggerated. If we deny the former their due recognition, we empower the latter to feel that their particular struggle is greater than anyone else's, and deserving of special consideration.

A friend and I were recently talking about the stupidity and imprecision of the medical question "how bad is your pain on a scale of one to ten?" Because different people have different scales, and one man's 10 is another's 1. The difficulty here is that the one whose pain is always a "10" deprecates the pain of everyone else, while those who are so self-effacing as to disappear might choose not to "make a fuss," and thus deny themselves help they might really need. Or, if their pain is really bad enough that they do ask for help, they are ashamed of their weakness and lack of self-reliance.

I don't think all trauma is equal, but it sure seems empowering and inclusive to say that it is. I do think that some things which go by the name of "trauma" do not meet the definition of same, but deciding where precisely the line is drawn among dissimilar circumstances is no simple feat. It does seem that, for example, the trauma of having one's best friend's brains blown all over one's face is greater than, say, not getting the bicycle you wanted for Christmas. Yet, the behavioral bell-curve being what it is, there are probably people who were more deeply affected by not getting that bicycle than some people who experienced the explosion of their friend's head. It would seem disproportionate to validate such people, though, although one might on the contrary thinking not doing so is cruel and insensitive.

But trauma has a very specific medical meaning, and triage is a reality of medical care. The splinter in your finger may be agonizingly traumatic and a 10 on that terrible scale, while my leg dangling by a strip of flesh with both bones shattered may be a 1 to me (especially as I am probably incoherent with shock at the moment you ask), but it is the responsibility of the medical professional on the spot to evaluate which of us needs the immediate emergency treatment, and which can be safely ignored for the present. Even though I might be babbling "take care of him first, I'm okay," and the other insisting loudly that their boo-boo takes precedence. This may seem an exaggeration, but I remember being solemnly assured by a man that his hiccoughs were agony unparalleled in human existence.

This applies to physical trauma, of course, and not psychological, which is unfortunately not always so easy to triage. But if everyone's psychological trauma is equal, then no one's is greater or more necessitating treatment, which I think is contrary to plain fact and experience. What is needed is a good and consistent understanding of how these psychological traumas differ, and how they may most effectively be dealt with.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

14. Part Two.

My aunt is in her mid-90s. I've said qa few times on DU that I'd love to see her debate Trump, as her mind is sharp as a tack. She has served as a substitute grandmother for my daughters. Anyhow, one of her daughters died at age two from a condition that is relatively easily fixed today. She had a brother murdered over a card game. A nephew murdered over a bag of pot. And her grandson murdered because a drunk, off-duty law enforcement official was feeling angry (her son was shot and seriously wounded in that incident). Her philosophy, which I've heard her say to numerous members is "toughen up, because life is hard."

She does not believe in doing for others what they can do for themselves. Perhaps part of that comes from being of a long line of men and women who were union activists. My kids were surprised when she told them how many times her mother got home from work after being pelted with eggs by those opposed to unions. At the same time, there is nothing she wouldn't do for anyone that is truly unable to do for themselves. That's a distinction I found essential in social work.

Speaking of social work, I encountered a few co-workers who said that they suffered from vicarious trauma. That is leakage. Actually, they had burned out, a not uncommon experience in social work. It is primarily a problem if one remains in that job after burning out. Outside of social work, "vicarious trauma" is primarily defined today by, "Can I have your attention please?" That isn't the real trauma that war veterans who servived hell on earth have.

Now, there is a definite need for an updated WPA/CCC type of program that pays well. And there is a desperate need for expanding social programs that both help teach some to be able to do for themselves, and to provide for the truly helpless. Those are important investments that can and must be accomplished, should everyone who can be paying a fair amount of taxes. These are things that can help heal our society. Both FDR and LBJ had great ideas. In my lifetime, however, Nixon followed LBJ, and as republicans do, he made The Great Society a bureaucratic, top-heavy mess, doomed to fail.

I'll end this and get back to doing another brief stint mowing my lawn by saying this. I'm an average person. I had an unpleasant childhood, but far from the worst. Twice in my life, I've been held at the wrong end of a shotgun. Once while I was in college, once as a social worker. Neither were pleasant experiences for me ..... until police showed up both times. Both of the gentlemen who held me at gunpoint ended up in psychiatrict hospitals, which was exactly where they needed to be. I am admittedly hardly the defintion of resilient, by any means. I was calm when at gun-point, but did experience discomfort and even anxiety once I was safe. But definitely no trauma. I simply spent the next few hours talking with friends/ co-workers. That's how evolution puts resiliency into us as human beings -- a social network.

[Quakerfriend]

6. I think a young person's ability to be

resilient often comes from the shared experience of those
family members who have gone before us & the sharing of these experiences only comes through conversation.
With young people today, conversation is often ‘replaced’ or interrupted by social media.

Years ago I mentioned to my aunt that I had found a picture of Grandma’s gardens. I was so amazed at how big and beautiful they were & thrilled to have found that single photo. My aunt told me something that I never knew- that Grandma tended to her gardens by scooting around on her bum.

She had lost her leg in a car accident in her 40’s. And,
despite it all, still kept her beautiful gardens.

That little story has given me strength over the years.

[H2O Man]

16. You nailed it!

What may seem simple -- conversations -- is absolutely essential in human development and individual/group health. It is one thing for a cranky old man like myself -- Lennon's "Mean Mr. Mustard" is among my favorite songs -- to choose at this time in life to be a hermit. And spend an hour or two a day on the internet to talk to people, primarily family & friends that live distantly. But I love when my children, nieces, and nephews visit, and bring their children. I try to hire the children to help me in the garden, even if we spend more time talking than working. I add rewards to their pay if they ask questions, for children and youth should question everything.

For a variety of reasons, the Universe looked at teenaged me and decided I needed two mentors -- both of whom could be tormenters as necessary! -- and so I had Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman to seek advice from. It's funny, my kids grew up thinking of Rubin as an uncle, and Paul as a grandfather. And I often hear them saying the things those two taught me.

[Easterncedar]

7. Good preaching

I’d go to church for that.

[H2O Man]

17. Thanks!

"Mass" is usually held when I sit out by the pond with the dog, feeding the fish & birds. These are the things I think about, and sometimes talk to myself about, too!

[flying_wahini]

8. I think this is correct except that the trigger seems to be an interpreted personal disrespect .

The shooters always seem to have a personal grudge against the kind of people they shoot because of an incident of disrespect that has personally happened to them.

Road rage is a more common act when strangers disrespect one another.
An incident at work from a boss or fellow worker is another example as mentioned above.

[H2O Man]

18. Exactly!

Adult mass shooters are always responding to something internal. (Non-mass shooters, too.)

Per road rage, I do understand a degree of frustration while driving, because people do things that are rude, sometimes dangerous. But I am never in a hurry, and drive defensively. I did so even before a driver chatting on a cell phone ignored a red ligh & a couple stop signs, and changed my life. Lots of surgery, and over two years of PT to get walking safely again.

There was a good commercial about road rage a few years back. A guy freaks out, and begins threatening another driver. It turns out he is threatening Evander Holyfield, the former heavyweight champion. He cooled off quickly. I likeed this, because around that time, my younger son & I were going to a store. A guy thought my boy did something wrong, and followed us to the parking lot. I'm not sure if he recognized my boy or not -- he's fairly well known as a three time Golden Gloves champion -- but when he saw my son, he turned and left. My son said too bad, because if he did do something wrong, he would apologize for it. That's the way we should be.

[malthaussen]

9. I think abuse of language is a contributing factor.

As you mention. It is something that applies to much more than trauma, as the tendency to misuse terms that once had a specific meaning is part of the increasing hyperbole that has been a feature of day-to-day life for decades. I'd say it started with Madison Avenue creating sizes like "Giant, Super, and Jumbo" to deprecate the "normal." My tongue is only in my cheek a little when I say that, because I do see our language moving in that direction in every field.

When the "normal" is somehow insufficient, when a feature of everyone's individuality is that his problems are so much more difficult, complex, or significant than those of others, I could see things leading to such an individual thinking -- and demanding -- that he receive special treatment, better treatment, or more treatment than all those whose suffering is so much less. And, if not rewarded for his uniqueness by the special treatment he feels is his due, to act with violence against those who deny him, or just random people if he can't get at the source of his injustice. Expectation of special treatment leads to a great sense of injustice, however ridiculous the expectation might be.

At the same time, people who have been historically marginalized receiving some of the care and attention that is actually their due is threatening to those with heightened expectations, because we increasingly see life as a zero-sum game, so any gain for another is a loss for ourselves. Putting in a ramp for wheelchair access is taking time and resources I deserve and contributing them to some other people who are losers anyway. Add in enough of such insults, and a Real Man has to stand forth, gun in hand, to stand for what he believes. Which, apparently, is that everybody may be special, but he is more special than others.

I have a feeling this post verges on incoherence, because I see so many fundamental problems converging at once that it's quite hard to unpack things in a way that makes sense. The TL;DR version would be that society increasingly seems to be designed to put people at each other's throats, and to encourage the violence it ostensibly abhors.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

19. Very well said.

And the exact opposite of "incoherence."

It's fascinating to me that a friend who I respect and enjoy wasn't willing to tell me how they define "trauma." If I understand their post (#13), it has to do with people meaning different things with certain words, in terms of values. I could be wrong, of course, as I so often am. Yet, words have actual meanings, and if people use them in other ways than their actual meaning, the result is always confusion. Indeed, this is one of the two lessons of the esoteric story of the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11: 1-9. It is not intended literal, nor is it intended to explain the various languages on earth ...... but a warning that when empires fall, people will not understand one another, because they make up different meanings of words.

Of course, one could look to see if one might apply that lesson today. Perhaps it is best illustrated if we take an extreme and obvious example. If one wanted to talk to a Trump cult member about the topic of "fair elections" and "election outcomes," they would find it difficult because the cult members have their own definition -- not based in reality -- of those words. More, it is rooted in exactly what you pointed out in the example of the ramp -- they think that what is rightfully their's has been stolen from them.

[malthaussen]

23. I have come to the conclusion, after many years, that the words don't matter...

... at least for some. In my counselling days, we used to have an expression: "They're not talking about what they're talking about." This is a valuable insight, IMO, because it makes you realize that, in many cases, what people say is a problem is really nothing to do with what they really feel is the problem.

In terms of the Orange Disgusting One, I really believe that few people really love or support him, although the behavioral bell-curve being what it is, there will always be some who do. But for the majority, they're not really seeing Mr Trump, or any of his traits, but instead relating to what they want to be true. And even here they dissemble. I've come to the conclusion that a rather significant portion of people want to dominate others, to make them do as they say, and they fervently support Trump because he acts as they would if they had the courage. Indeed, because he does act as he does, with impunity, it emboldens these others, who think themselves justified and validated in their desires to misbehave.

Similarly, we know that anti-abortion is nothing about saving the children, but all about controlling women. Again, that bell-curve applies, but it seems that the majority of anti-abortionists don't care at all about children, as they oppose anything to help them, like free lunches or subsidized day care, but only care to force other people to do as they say, ie have the child at all costs. (I see a parallel to the abolitionists of the 19th century, who with a few exceptions didn't care about black people, and made laws forbidding them to live in their communities, but still clamored for the end of slavery. A laudable cause, to be sure, but rather incomplete if nothing is done to welcome the ex-slaves into the community of their fellow men).

I'm getting to the point where I don't believe the RW is ever talking about what they're talking about. Even the love of firearms is nothing to do with the weapons themselves, but in the feeling of manhood and power possessing them gives, the idea that one can force others to do as they say, however ridiculous. In fact, the more ridiculous the better: it is by forcing others to accept the most unreasonable things, things that clearly violate what we can see with our own eyes, that they assert their dominance the most. I was asking a friend why so many assholes were popular these days (thinking particularly of Ted Cruz), and I realized that the assholery was a feature, not a bug, that the bigger assholes these people were, the more support they would get from certain others, not for their own sweet sake, but for the joy of forcing reasonable people to submit to the power of these others to impose their wills on them. This, I think, is the big story of the century so far: that people who were skulking in the shadows, discontented and self-pitying, have gained a disproportionate voice in the politics (and media) of our times, and by this have come to realize that they are not alone, and that they can come together to inflict whatever indignity they want on their fellows. Gods know, some of the crap coming out of various State legislatures these days is breathtaking in its cruelty and indecency, forced through by sanctimonious, self-justified minorities in the clear and gleeful opposition to what the majority of their constituents actually want.

Well, rant off, I guess. But I don't actually agree with the Surgeon General in some ways. The problem of loneliness is, no doubt, significant, but I think a greater problem is that rascals and scoundrels have come together and realize they are strong. So long as they continue to prosper with impunity, the Republic will continue to experience chaos.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

25. I hear you.

Growing up in an Irish Catholic extended family, I did encounter people from my father's generation that were "pro-life" that also cared a good deal about babies that were either born to parents that couldn't care for them, or that were simply not wanted. Hence, adoption played a role in the expansive number of cousins I had. My father was one of 14 siblings, which was not only evidence his parents believed the pope that birth control was a sin -- worse than consuming meat on Fridays, I'm sure -- but it was part of what families did in the 1700s and 1800s.

Now, I was talking with my daughter today about words. I am surprised every time I hear an intelligent person say that samething is true "across the world." I also noted there are still people who talk about "christians and catholics," as if catholics were not christians. Yet "christian" has become fairly close to meaningless as a word, considering the history of the religion and the number of branches there are today. The vast majority have not a clue who the human being Jesus was, much less what he spoke of. The image they worship is, on the individual level, their limited projection of what their best ultimate potential is. They believe he will do for them what they do not do for themselves.

Likewise, the Trump cult started when the less intelligent among us projected their desires on him. He was doing it for them -- rich, famous, what they mistake for powerful, telling off politicians with a snarl. Why, they even convinced themselves that he cared about them! That he was willing to sacrifice and serve as president for them.

On another topic, working at the clinic, a friend and I were able to translate things that the seriously ill people said, to the surprise of our co-workers at staff meetings. He and I used to tell them it was because we did LSD when we were young. I did find those with serious mental illness to be among the most decent and honest people I've met. In DV and jail groups, people always started out lying and attempting to justify their behaviors. There were wide ranges in those groups.

[malthaussen]

26. I'm probably just an old hippie...

... but I think we could do worse than requiring everyone to take a few training sessions in Rogerian counselling. Just think how different society would be if, for example, people made a habit of sending "I" messages.

-- Mal

[malthaussen]

10. I was expecting the Guess Who

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

20. That works!

[Martin Eden]

11. It takes a Village.

Sadly, the village idiots have far too much influence.

[H2O Man]

21. Right.

They have saturated every level. I remember the night that the school my daughters attended held its "meet the candidates" for school board. The guy I was running to unseat talked about his opposition to "the gays." Seriously. I thought to myself there was no way I would lose to that asshole, and I'm still glad I beat him. That was about a decade ago, and I did two terms. While I did not enjoy being on the board, I knew it was important, and I actually accomplished a few important things.

I had served on a couple other boards previously, and enjoyed them. But sometimes, as citizens, we need to step up and do things for the good of the village, even if they are a pain in the behind. If we don't, other people with very different intentions -- the idiots -- surely will.

[malaise]

12. i started singing Paul McCartney 's song as I read your title

Great OP

[H2O Man]

22. Thank you!

In that case, I will link another song that I find inspiring, and that I think should serve as the Democratic Party's theme song!

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

27. You're right about resiliency

Being the difference maker.

Contrary to what that gormless git George Lucas had to say about it, anger is not the cause of fear. Anger is an appropriate rational response in the face of something wrong or inherently unfair. Rage is a negative and irrational response to, well, anything, and all out of proportion to the supposed offense--if there even is an offense. And that rage doesn't cause fear; it's born from it.

Anger makes people stronger, enough to take action in a positive way. MLK was angry at how people like him were treated, and he used that anger to change the world; the white racists he was up against were full of rage born of fear, and that made them commit so many horrible and vicious deeds against MLK and people like him.

The weak person can't cope with reality and wastes time and energy raging against and over their irrational fears, rather than dealing with what is. Resilient people stare reality in the face and deal with that, rather than with phantasms of gloom and doom (or its equal opposite, rosy dreams detached from reality).

I contend that if you deal with the "what is" when it's in front of you, it makes the gloom and doom "what if" less likely to happen. No guarantees, but the odds are always good. That old "nipping it in the bud" thing works surprisingly often.

An older generation to mine had a term for resilience that now gets derided, and, I might add, unfairly: the old-fashioned "stiff upper lip" that my British ancestors are so infamous for. I can't help thinking, though, that my nan and et al had it right, and we need to bring back the stiff upper lip as a public virtue.

I know what the response will be here, but consider, Americans, that you see the stiff upper lip as "repressive" because you have this bizarre notion that it's pretty much anything goes when it comes to your "feelings" and "opinions" or even with acting upon them no matter how awful or damaging they may be. It permeates your very culture, to the point that you don't even see it, most of the time: "Do your own thing." "Just do it." And all those other smarmy advert sayings to get you to put yourself and what you want before anything else.

And how is that working out for you?

I say that this amount of unrestrained self-expression and self-indulgence is total bollocks. It makes you weak not to restrain yourself in some ways, and at crucial moments. Restraint can be a good thing, especially in trying times, because keeping your head in the face of adversity (or even of differences with other people) prevents far more misunderstandings and tragedies than it causes. Even better, endeavouring to be calm, cool and collected when mucking about in the world keeps tempers (and emotional temperatures) from spiraling so far out of control.

American is in the mess it is now because too few of its people practice any modicum of poise or reserve (resilience, if you will), never mind good sense. Too many here are so very weak and incapable of dealing with anything outside their own fingers and toes that they cannot tolerate any differences from anyone else. It terrifies them that someone else can think and live differently--as if any disagreement negates them, somehow. This fear of thinking they're being "disrespected" or not accepted, or however it works in their tiny, evil minds, leads to their rage, and inevitably to their violence, too.

[H2O Man]

28. Right.

My grandfather came here from Ireland in 1879. There were already family members here -- farming, working on the railroad, and an uncle who was a marble-cutter ( a valued skill at the time). Those here saved money, and sent it back to the Old Sod so the next group of the extended family could come. That is an example of group resiliency.

Along with "toughen up" and "keep a stiff upper lip," I often heard "take care of business." Now, there were a couple of people over the generations that could not have made it on their own. But they were able to live productive lives within the network of the extended family. In other instances, aunts and uncles made it possible for nieces and nephews to go to college/universities.

Even in my early childhood, when my father was building our house in a rural area, we faced anti-Irish-Catholic nonsense from neighbors. That only lasted exactly as long as it took people to get to know us. In most instances, that was as friends. In a few cases, it was when some fool picked a fight. One of my sons and one daughter have carried on the tradition of boxing, being of the 5th generation to compete in the ring. I taught them what I was taught to me: outside the ring, never start a fight. But if someone lays a hand on you, beat the hell out of them.