Serious question for DUers - re that cruise ship disaster

[malaise]

Given the low wages and reduced benefits for pilots, ships captains and their crews, why should we expect loyalty to either a firm or passengers on an aircraft or ship?
Is the idea of a poorly paid captain remaining loyal to some industry even relevant today?
Isn't it 'every person for him/herself'
Why should I give up my life for a company that demeans my worth on a daily basis; that denies my right to a union, etc.

Discuss

[Vincardog]

1. If that is your opinion I don't want you on any ship I sail

[malaise]

16. I am asking you to think about the way people think today

This is not about me

[gateley]

2. ...

This will be interesting. You bring up some valid points.

[Swamp Lover]

3. OMG

Doing the right thing is now tied to union membership?

Jesus.

[SharonAnn]

12. Well, Captain Sully was a union member and his behavior was different.

He walked the length of the plane TWICE, making sure no one was left, before he left the plane.

He considered himself a professional captain and assumed the responsibilities that go with that.

I don't know about the cruise ship captain's union status, but he obviously didn't accept the responsibilities.

[malaise]

20. You see and so am I

We reflect the interests of community

[HuckleB]

28. So we have to anecdotes, and they mean something?

How?

[Swamp Lover]

45. That was the very example that came to my mind.

Sully made sure that his passengers and crew were safe before he left his plane. Now he is a strong proponent of organized labor, but his responsibility came first, regardless of how he felt about managment!!!

[malaise]

52. What you are missing is that our generation was raised to think community

We take care of others. Is that still true in the era of neo-liberalism where it is every person for him/herself?

[Swamp Lover]

103. We have to, by example and policy, be there for others.

That is the key to the argument between left and right.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

4. Because, as a Captain, you took on the responsibility of passenger's lives.

We're not tslking about a customer service clerk at Sears.

[customerserviceguy]

66. Hey!

I resemble that remark. Except for the Sears part.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

71. No offense!

[undeterred]

5. Was the captain of the Titanic in a union? Which one?

How come we never hear that part of the story?

There should have been a song about it in the movie!

[Lil Missy]

6. That's bullshit.

1) You don't know what his salary is, I'm sure it's not minimum wage.

2) Staying with the ship is his job description

3) It's a crime for him to abandon ship

4) Abandoning shows a complete lack of integrity

[ohiosmith]

10. ++++

By the way, a ship's Captain with Costa makes upwards of $120 - $150 K annually not counting benefits.

[obamanut2012]

11. Captains and officers get paid very well

[Texasgal]

19. Agreed...

Don't take a job as a captain if you are not willing to take the responsibility for you passengers. Period.

[malaise]

25. Well he's going to pay for the other crime of megligence

and everything you said is correct but are we seeing a new mindset

[HuckleB]

27. What "new mindset?"

What has suddenly changed about humans?

[EFerrari]

59. A mindset where badly treated, badly compensated employees

Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2012, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

don't invest much emotionally in the job they do? Who knows what happened with this @sshole but something did.

[HuckleB]

74. How is that new?

And how does a single anecdote show that at any point in time?

[EFerrari]

92. Ah, welcome to the topic.

[HuckleB]

100. That's your response?

[HuckleB]

101. Have you read human history?

[babylonsister]

7. From what I've read/heard, this 'captain' was the sole cause of

passengers losing their lives through boneheaded negligence. You might have some valid points, but I don't think so in this case.

[malaise]

22. You're right

but I'm not looking at this man the total scumbag. I'm wondering about a new mindset that is as loyal as the employer.

[obamanut2012]

8. They have a legal and ethical duty to their passengers

And, Captains and the Officers are not paid poorly.

And, for everyone else: by accepting the job, they accepted the responsibilities

[malaise]

24. They used to say that about pilots

but they are badly paid and benefits aren't what they used to be

[obamanut2012]

78. Captains get paid very, very well

I don't understand why you and other posters keep compare someone with a captain's license to a young pilot flying commuter planes. It's two totally different professions in two totally different industries.

They RECRUIT captains.

[boppers]

106. 300 passengers vs. 4,000 passengers... that's one difference.

Do you need others?

[southernyankeebelle]

9. If that is an attitude to have you don't need to be aboard a ship. Being on a cruise is like a

family. I have been on many cruises and the people like the chefs to the waiters are wonderful people who always take the extra time to make it a pleasant experience. By the way before you leave just like getting on an airplane they gather everyone on where you are suppose to be and they show you how to put a life jacket on. This boat captain failed the people aboard the ship. It would be different if you were working at a starbucks or a walmart and I would agree if your life is put in danger why would you stay there? You owe them nothing. But it is different when your on a plane, train, bus or a ship. You have a responsibility to the clients. The ship's captain should be going to prison for a long time.

[freefaller62]

53. The Plans work until...

When trouble sets in many people aren't cool and calm. They want to save their own asses and to hell with yours. I've seen it. There are a few people who will keep their heads together to help those who are in shock and wetting their pants; they maintain order and keep things moving.

But the Captain was on a ship, a good sized one at that. Despite it's capsizing it would float for a while - but the Captain PANICKED and that was that. I love how he was chewed out by the Coast Guard! His jail time is going to be hell on earth.

I bet we will see new safety procedures implemented after this tragedy. When the integrity of the hull is compromised, I bet they will launch the lifeboats much quicker than before.

[malaise]

64. Thank for a thoughful response

[boppers]

107. Train 10 people, one might respond correctly during crisis.

The Captain is just another human, no more, or less, than the majority of others who panicked.

[SunsetDreams]

13. Serious really?

I can't answer this because it would SERIOUSLY veer off the topic of this particular incident involving a Cruise.

Let's just say I STRONGLY disagree.

[tawadi]

77. And here is the perfect emoticon for this thread

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Do they deny the right to a union?

I don't know - a search hasn't shown things one way or the other, but the union Nautilus International has been quoted in UK media several times on this story. And I have no idea what the captain or others are paid. A responsible human being, who has received training in the safety procedures, does have an obligation to help those who have not received such training. It's not 'give up ones life', but neither is it 'every person for themselves'.

[malaise]

31. I know that there are many actors in the business

The more they outsource the less benefits.

But I am actually asking about a mindset re the new industry attitude to employees and the employees attitude to them.
Clearly if you work in service industries and must deal with safety and rescue issues, this is not going to work, but I think we should discuss the implications of 'winner takes all' in business as well.
It does not enhance client safety.
Note - this particular scumbag was a risk taker as well but I'd like us to discuss the general issue.

[obamanut2012]

80. A ship's captain is not part of a "service industry"

They are a ship's captain. The same with the officers. I come from a family background in this, and have current family members who hold captain's licenses.

They make a very good living and have very great responsibility.

[boppers]

108. What goods do they produce?

What is their work product?

In what way is their job.... not a service?

[WolverineDG]

15. Captains & officers make bank

and the passengers all said they were worthless. The employees the passengers give credit to? The low-paid wait & housekeeping staff.

[EFerrari]

35. Do you know that for sure?

Because I've seen awful reports about what pilots, for example, make today. It's unreal. Being an airline pilot used to mean you made enough money to have a family and a stay at home wife, if she wanted to do that.

[WolverineDG]

72. We're talking about cruise ships

but, whatever.

(I do know that pilots who fly commuter jets make next to nothing, but they are still in charge of the plane & responsible for everyone & everything on board, so yes, they should expect to "go down with the ship.&quot

[EFerrari]

86. I wasn't trying to switch the subject, I just can't speak to what this guy made

or what the package is for that job or if there is one.

[obamanut2012]

75. Yes, they do

A Captain's license is a real commodity. As the poster said, captains make bank, especially on cruise ships and tugboats.

You can't compare this to pilots flying commuter jets.

[EFerrari]

88. I didn't make that comparison but instead tried to point to a trend.

So, how do you know what this guy made because I don't. I don't know anything about that industry except that they pay entertainers very well.

[elehhhhna]

17. Universal truth: you wouldn't give your life for a company, ever. for your fellow man, maybe.

even Romney wouldn't give his life for a company.

[csziggy]

18. I don't think it has anything to do with loyalty to a corporation

But a matter of basic competence for the job he agreed to take. This captain may be a perfect example of the Peter Principle: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle). But he still accepted the pay and perks of his position. If the pay wasn't as high as he liked he probably could have found another position.

The real difficulty I have with the captain is that he did not check out what the problem was when the ship first ran into whatever it ran into, when the power went out, or when the ship began listing. By the accounts I have heard, there was at least 40 minutes in which it was apparent to passengers who had never been on a cruise ship before thought there was a problem before the first announcements were made to begin evacuation. If evacuation had begun 40 minutes earlier, there should have been less panic, fewer problems with lowering lifeboats, and hopefully less loss of life.

The problem I have with your premise is that unions are the antithesis of "every man for himself". Why would someone like this captain who seems to have no awareness of the value of human life have ever considered joining a union? Union members I have met seem to be the types that would sacrifice themselves to help their fellows, not the type that would leave a sinking ship with an unknown number of passengers left onboard.

[Ecumenist]

21. Wow, if a captain feels that way, the only ship he sails should fit into a bathtub.

That's just straight up callous.

[malaise]

23. Of course it's callous but the relationship with employers and employees today

is precisely that.

[Ecumenist]

29. No, different situation COMPLETELY. He took the resposibility of the lives of each one of those

passengers in his hand when he decided to become a ship's captain. By your logic, that's like saying that an airplane captain, once he realises that the plane is going to crash is justified in suiting up a baling out in a parachute. My best friend used to work in the cruise industry in the Mediterranean and trust me, where it comes to Captain's salaries, THEY ARE NOT HURTING!

[malaise]

32. I understand both honor and duty

but I grew up in an era where loyalty was a two-way street.
In this new era, I expect to see more scumbags like this one.

Honor and duty should apply to paying taxes as well but the rich no longer believe that is their duty.

[Ecumenist]

33. Nope, different situation. Your loyalty lies with the passengers at the end of the day.

What you're doing is arguing apples Vs Orangutangs. Not even close to making sense. He took he licencing to become a captain and protect passengers BEFORE he hired on to a company.

[Skittles]

36. mmmmmmmmmm no

this is more a character issue than an employment issue

[obamanut2012]

83. His/Her only "employer" is the SHIP and the PASSENGERS

It doesn't matter who cuts the check. Their legal and ethical obligation is to the well-being of the passengers, the crew, and the ship. The Titanic's captain, Cpt. Smith, was last seen climbing to and entering the Bridge. He gave the order to abandon ship, and stayed there until the bitter end.

This line of thinking really is insulting to all the Captains and Ship's Officers out there.

And, to repeat: they are paid very well for this.

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. You must have no concept of duty or honor. He was a fucking Captain.

He took on the responsibility willingly.

Since you seem to know how much he makes, why don't you clue us in? He lives in a £175,000 seaside apartment. Nice digs.

[Ecumenist]

30. He won't be living there anymore....

[EFerrari]

37. malaise isn't asking that.

She was asking if this guy was being paid anywhere near enough for the responsibility that goes with his job. That's a fair question given how much jobs like his have been degraded in the last couple of decades or so. I don't know the answer. Do you?

[malaise]

44. Thanks sis

You get it

[EFerrari]

48. Yup. There is a whole culture that seems to be gone

and people haven't noticed yet.

When professionals or skilled tradesmen were valued and payed a sufficient wage to provide for a family. There was a mutual investment that people didn't walk away from or screw up lightly.

That's gone, imo. But it looks like a lot of people haven't noticed and their expectations of how everyone behaves hasn't caught up with the new normal.

[malaise]

57. That's my point - when will people notice that there is a new normal

that they do not care - who is loyal to nothing

[boppers]

110. Something to think about.

My skill used to earn 6-7 figures a year.

I now make 5 figures.

I haven't abandoned my responsibility, even as the pay has abandoned me.

Money has nothing to do with responsibility, honor, or a person's value to society. The two are not connected.

[ohiosmith]

46. He accepted the position. He assumed the responsibility. His irresponsible, reckless, and illegal

actions resulted in the loss of human life and potential environmental devastation.

Although his compensation should not be a factor, he was paid $120 - $150 K annually excluding benefits.

[EFerrari]

51. First, nobody is arguing that he did right, that's not the issue.

Second, it's not only a matter of cash but of course compensation figures in when you ask people to put their lives on the line. Could you say where you got those numbers?

[ohiosmith]

69. It was my business to know. Prior to retirement I was VP of one of the world's largest career

management companies.

[EFerrari]

97. That's interesting, ohiosmith.

In your opinion, how are career management companies doing these days?

[malaise]

58. You think all those bankers who stole people's homes and lives

didn't accept responsibility?

[ohiosmith]

70. Huh? What does that mean? What has it got to do with your OP?

[EFerrari]

96. IOW, those banks that gambled with our mortgages bailed on their responsibility, too,

and it cost hundreds of thousands of people their homes. Mostly minority and blue collar people at that because those communities were targeted for crap loans.

[malaise]

111. It means that assumptions we once made are no longer

useful.

[onenote]

67. He accepted the job.

If he didn't think he was being paid enough he should have quit the job. But its not his choice to take a job that includes responsibility for the passengers and then deciding he doesn't want to do that part of the job.

If a secret service officer decided he didn't want to risk his life protecting the president because he's not paid enough, would anyone defend that decision?

[EFerrari]

95. And yet people take jobs whose requirements they don't honor all the time.

Donald Rumsfeld lied us into a war and got thousands of Amercans killed. His job was defense. FEMA was supposed to help NOLA, not keep rescuers and emergency supplies out. Palin, well, is Palin. lol

The Secret Service is hired to protect our political elite and don't speak to this situation. There is no way they will be short-changed.

[cherokeeprogressive]

81. "Isn't it 'every person for him/herself'" If you say... I guess.

"why should we expect loyalty to... passengers on an aircraft or ship?"

I know the answers to BOTH of those questions.

It's NOT every person for him/herself unless you're a cold and heartless coward.

and

I expect loyalty from a Captain who took his job freely and willingly IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.

[EFerrari]

93. Okay. malaise didn't say that attitude was right

just that it might be there.

And we expect loyalty from all kinds of people and we don't get it, have you noticed that?

From our lenders, from our employers, from our public servants. From the media. That's something like a breakdown in our social contract, that's all the OP was trying to get to, imo. We expect torturers to be prosecuted and yet, none are. You and I can probably go on and on with examples.

Maybe this guy was just shitfaced. Imo, that's probably what happened. But, there's another context that has more to do with how working people are getting screwed all over the world, in Greece, in the UK, in Ireland, here, and that is going to have consequences. Eventually the 1% is going to see the results of treating working people as if they're not fully human. And it won't only hit the 1%, it will hit all of us in some way.

[cherokeeprogressive]

102. EF: Ever the voice of reason...

Okay. While I might agree with the broad notion of the notion that the working class is getting screwed, the proportion of Ships Captains to the working masses is waaay less than 1% and I DON'T think their particular profession is subject to the kinds of disrespect regular people are shown.

This one was obviously overpaid.

[SecurityManager]

34. I heard a news report the captain was in a life boat

As passengers and crew were still on the ship?

[malaise]

47. And he refused to return to the ship despite orders n/t

[Ecumenist]

76. Yep and an Italian coast Guard officer basically told him to reboard the ship.

Again this captain took the oath BEFORE he signed up withteh company and part of that oath was to TAKE CARE OF HIS PASSENGERS!! PERIOD.

[obamanut2012]

85. The Italian Coastie ordered him back to the ship

As soon as "abandon ship" went out, the Coast Guard was the maritime authority in charge. The Captain LEGALLY had to obey that order. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order.

He has been charged with manslaughter, abandoning ship, and shipwreck. I also still think he had been drinking, while is also illegal.

He is a disgrace to the sea.

[Solly Mack]

38. I may not have loyalty to a company but I do have an obligation to my fellow humans.

I wouldn't try to stop a robber from robbing a store I worked at but I would try and save a life.

There's a clear difference to me.

I get the point of lousy pay and demanding much for nothing wages - but I'd have to help people regardless of my lousy wages.

[malaise]

39. So would I but there are a whole lot of folks today

who would not

[Solly Mack]

41. I know.

and I know you would help.

[rucky]

40. He was trained to handle emergencies

he could've saved one or more lives

instead, he walked away.

there were passengers on the ship who tried to save people - and maybe some did. And they paid to get on that ship.

Nobody's asking him to be loyal to a company - just to be a basically decent human being.

[malaise]

42. This particular scumbag had already risked their lives to go that close to the island

We know he is no Scully.
Will there be more like him than like Scully as a result of the ideology of self that is promoted everywhere today.

[EFerrari]

43. He saved one life.

But seriously, his response was so messed up, it makes me wonder if he was impaired. Because even if you save your own skin, you will never work again and might wind up in prison.

[malaise]

49. Impaired, frightened or self-absorbed

Regardless he must have known the consequences

[EFerrari]

60. If you are chemically impaired, your frontal lobes are disconnected.

That's what I think.

Because most people do better than that for each other and because training kicks in.

[Ecumenist]

79. Honey, He didn't walk away, HE RAN AND ROWED AWAY!!

Being a basically decent human being doesn't have a price tag BUT IS PRICELESS..

[ZombieHorde]

50. If you value human life, and you are trained for the specific dangerous situation,

then saving the people in that situation would probably be what you would do.

The captain probably didn't value the lives of his passengers.

[malaise]

54. Do most of the rich value the lives of their workers? n/t

[ZombieHorde]

56. I don't know. What is rich?

I am rich compared to most folks in North Korea, but poor compared to Wall Street folks.

I am not completely sure how your question addresses my post.

[boppers]

113. The captain hauled the 1% around.

When shit went down, he bailed.

[madinmaryland]

55. MAYBE YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT THE 4,200 PEOPLE ON YOUR SHIP.

I wish I could un-rec this piece of shit thread.

[EFerrari]

61. What are you on about?

The poster asked a question about a possible contributing factor, she didn't bless the behavior. Seriously.

[malaise]

63. This place is hilarious

[EFerrari]

65. I'd think people would remember those NYPD cops moonlighting at BoA

as security, when they hauled that lady BACK IN to the bank so she could be arrested, for example. Remember teachers who are in reality badly paid interns at private schools who act out all over their students. Remember the firefighters who have watched as houses have burned down, just in the last couple of years.

And consider that something has happened.

[malaise]

62. Maybe you should

but he didn't and I'd like to have an idea how many others think like him and why

[customerserviceguy]

68. So the essence of your thesis is

if the captain thinks he's getting a shitty deal from management, he has the right to take it out on their customers, even if it means imperiling their very lives?

Not going along with that.

[EFerrari]

82. Could you show where you think the poster said the captain had a right

to abandon his passengers?

[Ecumenist]

90. Well, the metaphor I made was a plane captain who realises that there's no way to avoid a crash...

so, he suits up and bails out in a chute, passengers be damned.

[malaise]

104. I asked some questions

I want to know if people care less because there are ReTHUG politicians and ruthlkess capitalists like Romney who see empathy as a bad thing. At what point does this trickle down to employees?

[mythology]

73. We should expect it because it's the right thing to do

It's not about loyalty to your employer or even the passengers. It's about loyalty to yourself to do the right thing morally.

But people choosing to do the wrong thing isn't exactly anything new. Most people chose to not help Holocaust victims, or to help runaway slaves or more individually centered, people heard Kitty Genovese crying for help and 25 people who walked right past Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax as he lay dying. For an academic look at the same basic phenomenon look at the Milgram experiment.

The captain personally made a choice to do the wrong thing. Many people do, but it's not society's fault. At best society can put you in a position to make the wrong choice, but at the end of the day, the captain is the one who made the choice.

[malaise]

109. In case you haven't noticed

Doing the wrong thing is quite the orthodoxy these days from top to bottom.

[Nikia]

84. It is a fundamental part of his job

To add to that, the events that led to the accident were not random, a mechanical problem, or an outside malicious act. He was the direct cause of the accident, which should have caused him to feel more responsible, not less.
He also saved himself way before the last moment. He has plenty of time to save some more people and still escape if he was planning on saving his life no matter what.

[obamanut2012]

87. Can a surgeon just elave in teh middle of an operation?

That's the example a friend used today. What would happen if the surgeon left with the patient open, and refused to go back?

This situation is even worse, because it was 100% preventable and because 4,000+ lives were at stake, and the death toll is at 11, and will definitely be more like 20-30.

[EFerrari]

91. Like Jackson's doctor left him under anesthesia?

Or like those various stories of fire crews we've read about that stand by and watch a house burn?

Or like how FEMA left survivors in NOLA in toxic trailers and like how a certain foundation send them over to Haiti when they knew those little boxes couldn't be secured against hurricanes or earthquakes?

Like that?

Yeah, what this guy did was horrendous. But it doesn't seem to me to be singular.

[malaise]

112. or like the one who went home to

kill his wife between surgeries.
What about doctors who sell out needy patients for their insurance companies.
They signed an oath to defend life.

[Nikia]

115. Criminals always have and probably always will be with us

I suppose you are going to ask next whether it normal to steal from one's employer or assault an annoying coworker.

[quinnox]

89. It's hard for me to take this question seriously

I guess if you were a selfish and unfeeling asshole you might consider fleeing at the first sign of danger and saying "fuck them" in your mind to the passengers, but I have to think any person with some basic human empathy and sense of personal honor would help their passengers, regardless of what their pay packet was.

[EFerrari]

98. Imo, we'd all like to think that but we'd be farther ahead to consider

that the less reason people are given to invest emotionally in their jobs, the less they will and the easier it becomes to decide to walk away from people who need help. It's not a good thing but it is a predictable one.

[RZM]

94. Except his obligation wasn't to the company

It was to the law and his passengers. The law says he was supposed to stay on board and his passengers were counting on him to do his part to evacuate the ship safely. We can debate whether or not there is a culture of selfishness all night long, but it's neither here nor there when you're talking about the obligations of a ship captain. To say he's a victim of the culture is to excuse his deplorable actions. It's not like people just started traveling on ships yesterday. There is a long tradition of captain's duties and this moron didn't fulfill them. It's as simple as that.

I'm pretty sure your average spring break booze cruise captain isn't a union member, but they still have the same obligations this guy does. He's a disgrace to the nautical community no matter his union status, the company he worked for, or how much money he made.

[obliviously]

99. If this is one of your seriouse questions

What are your silly ones like?

[malaise]

105. Your spelling of

seriouse

add

[moriah]

114. Low wages for a cruise ship's Captain? Are you shitting me?

Low-paid crew members could be forgiven. That man is rolling in dough compared to the rest of us.

Honor. He did not have it. THAT's the difference.

[Spider Jerusalem]

116. Stupid question

it's not about "loyalty to an industry". It's about responsibility. It's about leadership. It's about doing your job. It's about not being a fucking coward. The captain has a responsibility, both moral and legal. In the event of an accident or a disaster it's his job to oversee the evacuation of passengers and crew to safety. The captain should be the last man off the ship, not one of the first. If he were the commander of a naval vessel and did something like this? He'd be looking at a very long time in a military prison, and quite rightly so.