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Just_Vote_Dem

(3,027 posts)
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:25 AM Dec 2023

I have bad news for the progressives currently beguiled by Liz Cheney

Liberals beware: This political transformation is not, in fact, very transformative

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/liz-cheney-book-trump-receipts-democrats-beware-rcna128246

I have bad news for the progressives currently beguiled by Liz Cheney’s deft skewering of her erstwhile Republican colleagues: She is not going to love you back.

Cheney’s new book, “Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning,” has become an immediate bestseller based on its promise to bring even more receipts to the Trump indictment party. (And she does have receipts.) Her message to anyone who has ever knitted a “pussy hat” hits right in the feels: Donald Trump is a “grave threat” to American democracy, a man “willing to torch the constitution,” and thus “[h]e has to be defeated, and people can’t be bystanders.”

Ironically, her last book had an equally dire warning — about Democrats post-Barack Obama. “Our next president must be committed to restoring America’s power and strength,” she and her father, former Vice President Dick Cheney, wrote in “Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America.” “Our security and the survival of freedom depend on it.” It’s almost as if they were calling for our next president to make America great again.

Others have illustrated the straight line that connects the rabid anti-Obama xenophobia and racism of the tea party movement — a movement Cheney embraced — and the mob that forced its way into the Capitol on Jan. 6. That ideological genealogy doesn’t make Cheney responsible for Jan. 6. Nor does it mean we shouldn’t take her current warnings less seriously. But it should temper the applause she gets in 2023 for making the same observations that plenty of people made in 2015. Democrats should be wary of investing this much political capital in a politician who is all but telling them about her intention to eventually betray them.

More at link

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I have bad news for the progressives currently beguiled by Liz Cheney (Original Post) Just_Vote_Dem Dec 2023 OP
At least Adam Kinzinger adamantly stated he'll vote for Biden. llmart Dec 2023 #1
I haven't heard her say! She is very partisan, Emile Dec 2023 #3
Well, I believe she crossed her political party very openly. llmart Dec 2023 #6
I'm going to be blunt. The Repug party is never going to be "cleaned up". Liz flashman13 Dec 2023 #83
Tens of "new" conservatives will not make the Republicans TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #89
Well, in my opinion, that scenario would actually be like "cleaning up" the GOP. llmart Dec 2023 #100
She's been publicly crossing her party since the Jan 6th committee started. TwilightZone Dec 2023 #9
the bottomline...Liz Cheney happens to hate Trump more than agingdem Dec 2023 #81
She's already crossed her political party very openly and vocally. Sal_NV Dec 2023 #106
She has said she will do whatever it takes radical noodle Dec 2023 #39
That probably means she will leave the Emile Dec 2023 #62
... which is a vote for Trump. dchill Dec 2023 #69
if the alternative to Trump, agingdem Dec 2023 #94
She's smarter than that radical noodle Dec 2023 #105
It is possibe to respect someone. Woodwizard Dec 2023 #2
I don't respect someone who voted with Trump 92.9 % of the time Just_Vote_Dem Dec 2023 #7
OK..... Woodwizard Dec 2023 #21
Ding ding ding nt LittleGirl Dec 2023 #22
To her credit... 2naSalit Dec 2023 #25
Which is far more important than one more blue vote in Wyoming nt spooky3 Dec 2023 #88
Let z Cheney reminds me of the "broken clock" thing: right twice a day. calimary Dec 2023 #37
Woodwizard..... Upthevibe Dec 2023 #45
I don't think anyone's "beguiled" by her. I think people simply agree with her that another presidency Scrivener7 Dec 2023 #4
+100. Well said, I agree completely. Rhiannon12866 Dec 2023 #16
Scrivener7............. Upthevibe Dec 2023 #47
And she is an ALLY if she gets other Republicans to follow her in that act. RandomNumbers Dec 2023 #73
Thank you. elleng Dec 2023 #87
No one on the left thinks that she's had a political transformation. TwilightZone Dec 2023 #5
Exactly Martin Eden Dec 2023 #11
Agree 100% n/t Just_Vote_Dem Dec 2023 #14
I know Democrats who are intrigued by Liz Cheney. yardwork Dec 2023 #43
The Steve Schmidt effect Sympthsical Dec 2023 #72
Agreed on all points. yardwork Dec 2023 #74
TwilightZone......... Upthevibe Dec 2023 #48
Agree. nt Quixote1818 Dec 2023 #108
I would never vote for her BlueKota Dec 2023 #8
Who knew Ana Marie Cox was so unctuous, condescending, and self-righteous. madaboutharry Dec 2023 #10
I disagree. Just_Vote_Dem Dec 2023 #13
I suggest you read her book. madaboutharry Dec 2023 #15
Thanks for the suggestion, I will think about it. n/t Just_Vote_Dem Dec 2023 #18
I'm not embracing her JustAnotherGen Dec 2023 #38
There was apparently some last minute editing to acknowledge that he became speaker. madaboutharry Dec 2023 #44
Hearing her read JustAnotherGen Dec 2023 #104
Trigger for the former Secretaries of Defense letter regarding the use of the military to conduct the coup?? LeftInTX Dec 2023 #59
Yes - she saw it JustAnotherGen Dec 2023 #103
Ana Marie Cox always has given me the Maureen Dowd yorkster Dec 2023 #23
Excellent smear! Paladin Dec 2023 #31
Merci - pretty good at the bon mots yourself. yorkster Dec 2023 #36
Merci, back atcha. (nt) Paladin Dec 2023 #53
madaboutharry...... Upthevibe Dec 2023 #49
Absolutely agree peggysue2 Dec 2023 #63
We may have no illusions about Liz Cheney, but there are gullible people out there. Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2023 #90
The enemy The Wizard Dec 2023 #12
The Wizard......... Upthevibe Dec 2023 #50
No, logic nor physics excludes the possibility TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #92
She's on the side of the US on Bettie Dec 2023 #17
We know that. Shermanator Dec 2023 #19
I'll stand with anyone who stands against trump oldsoftie Dec 2023 #20
Calm down. No one in DU is falling in love there Bucky Dec 2023 #24
Exactly. She's apparently not down with fascism. That's nice. paleotn Dec 2023 #29
She may be an ally for now. But she is no progressive, let alone a Democrat. This enemy of our enemy is also our enemy. marble falls Dec 2023 #26
This is why democrats lose Playingmantis Dec 2023 #40
Trusting hard right conservative Republicans? marble falls Dec 2023 #58
No Failing to accept someone who shares a similar concern for the danger of the Orange Liar Playingmantis Dec 2023 #111
So which Democrats have failed to listen to which Republicans? marble falls Dec 2023 #112
Explination Playingmantis Dec 2023 #113
I will take any and all help to take Trump down orangecrush Dec 2023 #27
Our interests coinciding does not equal beguiled. paleotn Dec 2023 #28
A clear eyed view of Cheney. Her eloquence and insider info is notable Raven123 Dec 2023 #30
She is angling for a run for prez in which MOMFUDSKI Dec 2023 #32
The enemy of my enemy, and so on. MineralMan Dec 2023 #33
If this post was written during WWII it would say... nycbos Dec 2023 #34
No truer words were ever posted at DU JustAnotherGen Dec 2023 #41
Bravo, my friend. Bravo. Joinfortmill Dec 2023 #52
Well stated Hekate Dec 2023 #80
To quote Charlie Pierce, "All hands on deck, but... JHB Dec 2023 #35
Cheney is not even remotely a "centrist" conservative. bluesbassman Dec 2023 #42
Liz Cheney is preaching to the choir radical noodle Dec 2023 #46
Well, yes and no... Joinfortmill Dec 2023 #51
She won't run. She will never win a Republican and Democratic presidential primary. LeftInTX Dec 2023 #61
I don't think anybody has any illusions about her underlying politics. Ocelot II Dec 2023 #54
I'm fine with saying I stand with Liz Cheney on destroying Trump and Trumpism... SYFROYH Dec 2023 #55
Good post. Hope most Dems know that she's still a republicnan... brush Dec 2023 #56
I have no regard for ANY republicans - so am under no illusion that she is self serving - and NewHendoLib Dec 2023 #57
Yeah. Autumn Dec 2023 #60
You could not be more wrong. madaboutharry Dec 2023 #75
She is loyal to her party. She supported Trump 93% of the time. Had it been her dad or a friend she would Autumn Dec 2023 #79
She was more than good with her daddy's coup TheKentuckian Dec 2023 #93
You need to read the first post I made in this thread. madaboutharry Dec 2023 #98
She is a patriot edhopper Dec 2023 #64
I agree with you. We need everybody to defeat Trump. We can part ways on other issues but getting rid of Trump is CTyankee Dec 2023 #65
she could be in this to protect NECON interest, I think they're a bit worried. A fascist dictator could seize or steal Hotler Dec 2023 #66
She's a piece of shit that should be discarded with yesterday's trash as soon as we are done with trump. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2023 #67
I find this: MorbidButterflyTat Dec 2023 #68
what is this nonsense about warning 'liberals' bigtree Dec 2023 #70
My point exactly... It is rather condescending but apparently these writers/pundits feel the need to hlthe2b Dec 2023 #78
You must have forgotten posts here like "Liz Cheney for Speaker?" or... JHB Dec 2023 #97
so they were like, 'I'm liberal and Liz Cheney is my political spirit animal?' bigtree Dec 2023 #99
Liz Cheney has ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY vowed to not vote for Trump... bullwinkle428 Dec 2023 #71
Duhh... I really think it is a very tiny minority that does not already know the score w Liz... hlthe2b Dec 2023 #76
How about all of us who aren't "beguiled," just grateful for an ally in saving democracy in this undeclared civil war Hekate Dec 2023 #77
They started something they can't control. idahoblue Dec 2023 #82
The enemy of my enemy can be useful in... Dave Bowman Dec 2023 #84
We need R voices speaking out against trump, the more conservative the better EleanorR Dec 2023 #85
She is not an ally quakerboy Dec 2023 #86
I see Cheney as an ally against *rump. Period. slightlv Dec 2023 #91
The idea that a "powerful" USA is essential for worldwide political stability has more than one aspect. jaxexpat Dec 2023 #95
I know that I can both disagree on some/most things with a person yet find things to agree on and we have that GuppyGal Dec 2023 #96
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. BlueIdaho Dec 2023 #101
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2023 #102
Glad for her help right now, madamesilverspurs Dec 2023 #107
The enemy of my enemy is my friend Pototan Dec 2023 #109
Don't like her. Would never vote for her. So she stands up to Trump because of his treasonous Scalded Nun Dec 2023 #110

llmart

(15,920 posts)
1. At least Adam Kinzinger adamantly stated he'll vote for Biden.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:28 AM
Dec 2023

I may have missed it but has Cheney done the same? Has anyone asked her who she'll vote for if Trump is the nominee? Will she say she won't vote? If so, she can STFU.

Emile

(26,075 posts)
3. I haven't heard her say! She is very partisan,
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:34 AM
Dec 2023

so I doubt she would ever cross her political party.

llmart

(15,920 posts)
6. Well, I believe she crossed her political party very openly.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:39 AM
Dec 2023

At least a vote can be kept confidential. What she did was worse in the eyes of the GOP.

I don't know if she'll openly state she'll vote for Biden, but my guess is she will never tell if she does. She will play both sides of the fence hoping that in the future she'll be accepted once again in her party after they clean up their act. Good luck with that happening, Ms. Cheney. You may have to wait a long time.

flashman13

(833 posts)
83. I'm going to be blunt. The Repug party is never going to be "cleaned up". Liz
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 03:13 PM
Dec 2023

Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, Mitt and other exiled Republicans will be the founders of a new conservative party and the current R party will collapse like the Whigs and Know Nothings. The country needs a rational conservative party to function. I am old enough to remember when words like liberal and conservative were not dirty words.

TheKentuckian

(25,364 posts)
89. Tens of "new" conservatives will not make the Republicans
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:06 PM
Dec 2023

go extinct, instead what you are talking about is stillborn.

Also, what in the world do we need "conservatives" for?

What have they been right about? Hell, what have they been for that isn't toxic?

Republicans have been utter trash for a century and no I don't care about foggy nostalgia for a brief period of exception that ended almost seventy years ago.

They have been between criminal and dead wrong since Harding otherwise. Usually the full spectrum too.

What is the point of the pretense of there being any utility of the Republicans or even conservatives?

Those we tend to label "moderates" are as conservative as a liberal democracy can bare without veering off the cliff to autocracy and economic deprivation and even that is being optimistic. A hundred Manchin's would be catastrophic in many ways.

llmart

(15,920 posts)
100. Well, in my opinion, that scenario would actually be like "cleaning up" the GOP.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:03 PM
Dec 2023

It won't happen overnight of course, and maybe they'll still call it the Republican party, but the extremists will be unwelcome by the likes of Mitt, et al. I, too, am old enough to remember the party of Ike.

TwilightZone

(26,430 posts)
9. She's been publicly crossing her party since the Jan 6th committee started.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:48 AM
Dec 2023

She's been quite overt about it, including calling out many members by name, for their involvement and attempted whitewashing re: Jan 6th and their blind support of Trump.

agingdem

(8,151 posts)
81. the bottomline...Liz Cheney happens to hate Trump more than
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:49 PM
Dec 2023

she hates Democrats...and if Trump had been successful in his attempt to overthrow the results of the election, Cheney would still be in office...

Sal_NV

(606 posts)
106. She's already crossed her political party very openly and vocally.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:42 PM
Dec 2023

I would find it unlikely that she would ever vote for D. Trump if he's the nominee..

agingdem

(8,151 posts)
94. if the alternative to Trump,
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:19 PM
Dec 2023

Last edited Sat Dec 9, 2023, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

a deranged malicious narcissistic vengeful despotic psychopath, is a moral empathetic man, determined to improve lives by making government work for the people, particularly those who feel left behind..a president that embraces and defends global partners, listens to experts and acts on their advise, and Liz Cheney abstains from voting for Biden because she's Dick Cheney's daughter...then she's a coward..

radical noodle

(8,064 posts)
105. She's smarter than that
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:38 PM
Dec 2023

She knows that would just help trump. She is dedicated to keeping him out of office. No matter what her motives, she's serious about it.

Just_Vote_Dem

(3,027 posts)
7. I don't respect someone who voted with Trump 92.9 % of the time
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:40 AM
Dec 2023
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/09/07/fact-check-false-claim-liz-cheney-voted-donald-trump-100-time/7973016001/

And only after the insurrection, thought, "Gee, maybe this is wrong!"

After a lifetime of her and her family voting for conservative ideas.

And as another person said, Has she said she will vote for Biden?

2naSalit

(89,162 posts)
25. To her credit...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:47 AM
Dec 2023

She is saying that she will "do what it takes" to get Joe Biden elected. As well as saying the same to defeat -45.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/13214070

Upthevibe

(8,451 posts)
45. Woodwizard.....
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:03 AM
Dec 2023

I agree.

I disagree with quite possible ALL of her beliefs. And, in this case, I have a lot of respect for her. For me, I can have two feelings at the same time.

Scrivener7

(51,492 posts)
4. I don't think anyone's "beguiled" by her. I think people simply agree with her that another presidency
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:38 AM
Dec 2023

for the defendant would end America and plunge us all into misery.

That fact is obvious enough that even those who seldom agree on anything can agree on it.

I love the fact that she is being so vocal about the dangers we face. It can only help us avoid them. And I respect the cost she has been willing to pay personally for being vocal.

Rhiannon12866

(212,559 posts)
16. +100. Well said, I agree completely.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:07 AM
Dec 2023

It's cost her a lot to speak out as she has and I also respect her work on the J6 Committee.

RandomNumbers

(17,901 posts)
73. And she is an ALLY if she gets other Republicans to follow her in that act.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:26 PM
Dec 2023

"Politics makes strange bedfellows", indeed.

You hear about so many "on the fence" about Biden. We need every vote we can get. I know conservatives wringing their hands over the prospect of Biden v. Trump again. If she makes some of them a little more ready to vote for Biden, I'll take it. (But if I ever see HER name on a ballot, she only gets my vote IF she is the best option - and that would be a scary thought, except so unlikely.)

TwilightZone

(26,430 posts)
5. No one on the left thinks that she's had a political transformation.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:38 AM
Dec 2023

It's possible to disagree with someone's politics entirely, yet respect them for taking on Donald Trump's corruption and autocratic plans. This is one of those times.

Martin Eden

(13,065 posts)
11. Exactly
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:50 AM
Dec 2023

Rachel spelled it all out very clearly in the preface to her interview with Cheney, who is diametrically opposite on pretty much every major issue we care about except protecting our Constutional republic against the threat of a very real TRANSFORMATION into a fascist autocracy.

She is certainly aligned with her father, who belongs in prison along with GW Bush for war crimes in Iraq.

yardwork

(62,559 posts)
43. I know Democrats who are intrigued by Liz Cheney.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:56 AM
Dec 2023

A lot of Americans - including committed Democrats, who vote - aren't that informed about what's going on. They hear Liz Cheney and say, "That sounds reasonable. I agree with her about Trump. And she's a Republican!"

I think lots of Americans still hope that there are Republicans and Democrats who can "work together" and "set aside partisanship."

In this current political climate I think that's a dangerous fantasy. I'm glad Cheney is speaking out against Trump but I would never trust her.

Sympthsical

(9,668 posts)
72. The Steve Schmidt effect
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 01:30 PM
Dec 2023

Where a Republican opposes Trump out of self-interest, and some people see that as a miraculous conversion and start plying them with praise and money for their projects.

I kept telling people Schmidt was grifting and was only mad because Trump caused him to lose his considerable influence in the party. This was the man who gave us Alito and Palin. And people kept praising and defending him to the sky. The whole, "I was molested" story after he ran cover for a pedophile who was also in on the grift was amazing. And it worked.

Well, that Dean Phillips stuff is some shit, eh? Gee, who could have predicted you could pay for the man's efforts to mess with our party?

Cheney wants neoconservatives like her and her father back in charge of the party. Trump messed up their Glorious Destiny.

She's totally fine as a temporary ally on this particular project. But I'm not sending any money in her direction.

BlueKota

(2,515 posts)
8. I would never vote for her
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:41 AM
Dec 2023

for anything, I just want her to continue helping to trash Trump. For that only she gets points.

madaboutharry

(40,646 posts)
10. Who knew Ana Marie Cox was so unctuous, condescending, and self-righteous.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:48 AM
Dec 2023

I think democrats reading Liz Cheney's book have no illusion about her ridiculously right-wing world view. Ana Marie Cox apparently is one of those people who will reject sound information based on the messenger who delivers it.
Cox's commentary is an example of how partisanship and tribalism damages this country.
Liz Cheney is by all measure an imperfect messenger. Notwithstanding, her insider view of what happened in the days after the 2020 election forward is important for every American to know and understand.

In multiple interviews that I have seen, when asked if she will vote for Joe Biden, her answer has been "I will do whatever I have to to make sure that Trump never gets near The White House again." I take that as a yes, even though she certainly disagrees with about 95% of everything Joe Biden believes in.

Say what you want about Liz Cheney and her right-wing world view, and there is certainly plenty to say, she has shown that she puts country and our democratic institutions over party. She has done so at great personal sacrifice.

Just_Vote_Dem

(3,027 posts)
13. I disagree.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:56 AM
Dec 2023

I think Cheney is well aware that if Trump wins again that her and her family will have no standing in the resulting power structure, since Trump is so vindictive and unforgetting.

And I'm amazed that other Democrats are so quick to embrace people on the other side who spent their lives making the lives of the poor, disenfranchised, and minorities a living hell.

I give kudos to Kinzinger for saying he would vote for Biden. When Cheney says that I'll cut her some slack.



madaboutharry

(40,646 posts)
15. I suggest you read her book.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:07 AM
Dec 2023

If Liz Cheney was concerned about her standing in the power structure, she would have chosen to remain silent. She would not have endorsed and campaigned for democrats in house races running against election deniers. As I said, Liz Cheney is an imperfect messenger. If someone who I don't agree with is running through the hallways yelling that the building is on fire while telling everyone who had the matches, I am going to listen.


JustAnotherGen

(32,687 posts)
38. I'm not embracing her
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:37 AM
Dec 2023

I'm listening to her book.

It was immediately apparent that the coup was afoot in the immediate aftermath of the election.

She acted on that knowledge. I didn't realize she was the trigger for the former Secretaries of Defense letter regarding the use of the military to conduct the coup.

This book was being prepared for press long before Mike Johnson was installed as Speaker.

That One is the single biggest threat to our Democracy.

madaboutharry

(40,646 posts)
44. There was apparently some last minute editing to acknowledge that he became speaker.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:57 AM
Dec 2023

Liz Cheney doesn’t have a good word to say about him. Cheney had once considered him a friend. She now sees him as a liar and a duplicitous and craven fraud who betrayed democracy and who sold his soul for power. She writes about him with contempt.

JustAnotherGen

(32,687 posts)
104. Hearing her read
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:48 PM
Dec 2023

Her book - and her truth telling about him -

She's straight up telling us he is an evil presence in our government.

LeftInTX

(27,708 posts)
59. Trigger for the former Secretaries of Defense letter regarding the use of the military to conduct the coup??
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:12 PM
Dec 2023
I didn't realize she was the trigger for the former Secretaries of Defense letter regarding the use of the military to conduct the coup.


What? How? Obviously she was against challenging the election (supported a peaceful transition)
Was she being outspoken?

(Sorry didn't pay much attention to her prior to the coup)

Before the coup happened, I was focused on the senate because they had a majority. I was focused on McConnell, Cornyn, Cruz etc. I was focused on those who were going to reject the results. I was afraid there would be a challenge in Congress.

I could picture the magats getting violent, but did not anticipate they would breach Capitol security.

Did she see know it was coming?

peggysue2

(11,122 posts)
63. Absolutely agree
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:29 PM
Dec 2023

I think we all know who and what Liz Cheney is and what her ring-wing sympathies have wrought.

But in this one thing she is right and clear: Donald Trump aims to destroy the country with the help of his enablers and MAGA supporters. They have a game plan and they're ready to execute it on Day 1.

Cheney's message is not for the vast majority of Dems. Her message is aimed at fellow Republicans who neither trust nor like Agent Orange but are still holding onto the traditional paradigm of left vs right, Democrats vs Republicans, liberals vs conservatives.

The next election isn't about that at all. In it's simplest terms it's fight for the continuation of democratic governance vs authoritarianism. Trump is The Man Who Would Be Dictator. He and his sycophants are telling us everyday. waving the Sedition Flag in broad daylight.

We don't have to like Liz Cheney. However, she did put her political career on the chopping block to stand up and push back on the Trump Administration's lawlessness. Unlike most of her colleagues, she told the truth and performed her duty to the American people.

For that and that alone, she deserves a measure of respect. If we, as a nation, get through this, we can all get back to howling at one another.

But for this moment? Strange times produce strange bedfellows.

TheKentuckian

(25,364 posts)
92. No, logic nor physics excludes the possibility
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:15 PM
Dec 2023

that my enemy's enemy is also one of mine.

There can be triage without feigning any friendships.

Those are formed individually not just common adversaries.

Bettie

(16,624 posts)
17. She's on the side of the US on
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:10 AM
Dec 2023

this one small area, in everything else, she's in agreement with the rest of her party.

She realizes that a dictatorship will mess with the flow of cash into her pocket.

 

Shermanator

(45 posts)
19. We know that.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:18 AM
Dec 2023

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Cheney is a progressive or somewhere in the middle. She's a hard right conservative but she does understand the threat Donald Trump poses to American democracy.

Bucky

(54,632 posts)
24. Calm down. No one in DU is falling in love there
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:44 AM
Dec 2023

People are rightly grateful that she's standing up to a bully. I'll take any ally in an existential war. She's on our side in a fight for democracy. Even said she'll endorse the Democrat if Trump gets the Republican nomination.

Just like FDR didn't get on Stalin's case about the gulags in the 1940s, I think it's okay to put off our abortion and tax cut arguments with Cheney until after the election.

marble falls

(59,608 posts)
26. She may be an ally for now. But she is no progressive, let alone a Democrat. This enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:53 AM
Dec 2023

Playingmantis

(154 posts)
113. Explination
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 11:10 AM
Dec 2023

I think you misunderstood my post.. I am only saying that instead of attacking Liz Cheney because she is not a progressive, we should welcome her as an ally in the fight against Trump fascists...

paleotn

(18,477 posts)
28. Our interests coinciding does not equal beguiled.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 09:59 AM
Dec 2023


And we don't love her either. Apparently someone doesn't understand the concept of the enemy of my enemy is my friend but only in that context. There's no love lost between the Democratic party and a Cheney. I'm sure Patrick Leahy thinks her father can go fuck himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/26/usa.dickcheney

What an incredibly shallow and stupid statement.

Raven123

(5,619 posts)
30. A clear eyed view of Cheney. Her eloquence and insider info is notable
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:09 AM
Dec 2023

However, as the editorial noted, she fails to acknowledge her own role in creating Trump. Unfortunately, MSNBC has been nearly unwatchable for me since Cheney started her book tour. I realize many see value in her viewpoint. I hope she goes on the GOP presidential campaign trail and speaks to voters. They are the ones who need convincing.

 

MOMFUDSKI

(7,080 posts)
32. She is angling for a run for prez in which
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:16 AM
Dec 2023

she might get some Dems’ votes. Could even be in ‘24 if the clown strokes out.

nycbos

(6,109 posts)
34. If this post was written during WWII it would say...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:18 AM
Dec 2023

... I know Hitler is bad but Churchill can't be trusted because he supports colonialism.

When you are fighting a fascist you ally yourself with whoever you can. Clement Atlee understood this. The Conservatives were the largest party during World War II, and most of them supported appeasement before the start of the war. Atlee offered to bring Labour into a wartime coalition on the condition that Neville Chamberlain step down. That meant his replacement would be Churchill by default because he was one of the only members of the Tory party who didn't support the Munich agreement.

We are facing the threat of Donald Trump as a dictator. I do not care what Liz Cheney said in the past. I do not care that I disagree with her on 95% of the issues. I am going to align myself with her to ensure the United States remains a democracy. If we defeat the threat of Trump-ism for good, and she goes back to being our opponent instead of our ally, that will be a sign that our democracy is healthy.


You need those people around. People you disagree with on every single issue, but who are still respectful of the democratic process.

JustAnotherGen

(32,687 posts)
41. No truer words were ever posted at DU
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:50 AM
Dec 2023
If this post was written during WWII it would say...

... I know Hitler is bad but Churchill can't be trusted because he supports colonialism
.


Slight change - if this article was written in the lead up to WW 2 it would say - I know Hitler is bad but Churchill can't be trusted because he supports colonialism.

The article in France would read: The billionaires in Europe won't allow them to invade France.

In Poland - The pacifists will ride to the front on their horses and lay down in front of the tanks.

In America: "We are on the verge of war, but it is not yet too late to stay out. It is not too late to show that no amount of money, or propaganda, or patronage can force a free and independent people into war against its will."

bluesbassman

(19,482 posts)
42. Cheney is not even remotely a "centrist" conservative.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 10:53 AM
Dec 2023

Her political and worldview are well documented and pretty much at odds with Liberal and Progressive thought and action. Anyone who believes otherwise does so at their own peril as she will never change her Conservative beliefs.

I would never vote for her and I doubt many other Liberals and Progressives would either. Who she does have sway with are centrist conservatives who may not be as hard right as she, but still respect her and will consider her views on keeping Trump out of the White House. MAGAts are truly a lost cause, but there’s not enough of them alone to elect the orange POS. If Liz can help steer a significant portion of those centrists away from Trump, more power to her.

radical noodle

(8,064 posts)
46. Liz Cheney is preaching to the choir
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:03 AM
Dec 2023

when it comes to DU. We don't need her to tell us what a danger trump is. Her value is in the independents and moderate Republicans who may be influenced by her. She tells the story surrounding J6 clearly and honestly.
She has never said, nor even implied, that she's somehow become more moderate or more in line with liberal and progressive policies.
Cheney has perhaps permanently ruined her political career to stand up for democracy and for this country. She took her oath of office seriously, and that's something we're seeing from very few Republicans today. I bought her book and will support her wholeheartedly in her efforts to defeat trump. Nonetheless, I have no illusions that she is on our side regarding policies.

Joinfortmill

(15,278 posts)
51. Well, yes and no...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:32 AM
Dec 2023

Liz Cheney is very Conservative, no doubt. But, she has proved herself to be an American patriot and staunch defender of the Constitution. That counts for a lot, especially in the times we are living in. Would I vote for her? It's extremely unlikely. Could I sleep at night if she was elected President (she will definitely being running sometime in the near future)? Yes.

LeftInTX

(27,708 posts)
61. She won't run. She will never win a Republican and Democratic presidential primary.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:20 PM
Dec 2023

She could get back in congress as an R, but only if she moves out of Wyoming to a blue state that likes to elect more moderate Republicans like New York or something.

I could see her picking up Will Hurd's old seat in Texas, but Cheney could do more damage than current R, which is Tony Gonzales. (He's been kinda quiet)

Ocelot II

(117,805 posts)
54. I don't think anybody has any illusions about her underlying politics.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:49 AM
Dec 2023

But, as I keep saying, while the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, sometimes she can be a useful temporary ally.

SYFROYH

(34,200 posts)
55. I'm fine with saying I stand with Liz Cheney on destroying Trump and Trumpism...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:52 AM
Dec 2023

,,,without embracing her arch conservatism.

Given the cowardice of most of the Repubican party, she is impressive.

brush

(55,367 posts)
56. Good post. Hope most Dems know that she's still a republicnan...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:56 AM
Dec 2023

with values we definitely don't agree on. As for her being determined to defeat trump, we agree and can work with her on that.

But again, she's still a republican, the party that right now is mostly against continuing to fund Ukraine's war against Putin's Russia, stupidly I might add as that's the cheapest way to deplete Putin's treasury and army and ability to threaten the rest of Europe without us firing a shot or commiting any troops. Also Putin seems to want to re-capture the former Soviet Union countries, which he can't do with a weaken army and treasury.

Such stupid lack of geo-political awareness of the US's role in world affairs from the likes of MTG, Gaetz, Boebert and other republicans who don't seem to realize that by deserting Ukraine, we once again show that we, a democracy, can't really honor our commitments if one or our parties decides not to continue what we've committed too.

It's what Putin and Xi, who play the long game in waiting for the US's commitments to weaken, say/think about democracies...because of party conflicts, they can't move as quickly as strong man governments which just need the word of the leader...and democracies,us, will eventually abandon their friends as we've done recently in Afghahnistan, Iraq, some African involvements, Vietnam and on and on.

We're teetering on doing it again to Ukraine. Makes me wonder how to slap some realpolitik awareness into the stupid party. And I bet other countries in the world are watching to see if we're going to do it again to Ukraine.


NewHendoLib

(60,147 posts)
57. I have no regard for ANY republicans - so am under no illusion that she is self serving - and
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 11:57 AM
Dec 2023

pure republican in her ideology.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
60. Yeah.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:16 PM
Dec 2023

Fuck Liz Cheney and her gushing idiots. If it were any other republican but Trump she would have been in on J6

madaboutharry

(40,646 posts)
75. You could not be more wrong.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:36 PM
Dec 2023

Liz Cheney most certainly would not have been in on J6 or in on any other form of insurrection or unconstitutional abuse of legislative power. She is loyal to The Constitution and the democratic institutions upon which this country was founded.

You are calling DUers gushing idiots? Really?

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
79. She is loyal to her party. She supported Trump 93% of the time. Had it been her dad or a friend she would
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:40 PM
Dec 2023

have gone along. That's what Republicans do.

TheKentuckian

(25,364 posts)
93. She was more than good with her daddy's coup
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:19 PM
Dec 2023

Save the sanctimonious hero narrative.

She just isn't ruinously stupid, Chump doesn't share power and cannot be trusted even by allies.

madaboutharry

(40,646 posts)
98. You need to read the first post I made in this thread.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 07:02 PM
Dec 2023

As well as the posts by many in this thread. I am not seeing any sanctimonious hero worship.

Democrats who are reading Liz Cheney's book acknowledge her deep conservative politics. They are not turning her into a hero, they are recognizing her patriotism and her defense of our democratic institutions.
She writes in her book how much she came to respect Nancy Pelosi. Her work on the J6 committee is an example of when we can put aside partisianship, even momentarily, sometimes something positive is accomplished.

edhopper

(34,184 posts)
64. She is a patriot
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:35 PM
Dec 2023

who believes in her country and the Constitution. She is a rare Republican that is not a fascist or traitor.
That said, we would disagree with her on every policy point.
I think we embrace the fact that she is different from most KGOP or Trump loving idiots.
She is like Robert Dole, didn't want him as President, but would never discount his service to the country.

CTyankee

(64,190 posts)
65. I agree with you. We need everybody to defeat Trump. We can part ways on other issues but getting rid of Trump is
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:46 PM
Dec 2023

critical. I'm sure she is not expecting anything more from us Democrats.

Hotler

(11,665 posts)
66. she could be in this to protect NECON interest, I think they're a bit worried. A fascist dictator could seize or steal
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:49 PM
Dec 2023

everything the NECONs work so hard to steal from us during the war years. I don't think the NEOCONs ever went away, just laying low. A dictator would halt any plans to put Liz in the White House.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,486 posts)
67. She's a piece of shit that should be discarded with yesterday's trash as soon as we are done with trump.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:54 PM
Dec 2023

She accuses Democrats of the most vile shit.

She voted for trump in 2020. Think about that. After 4 years of trump she thought trump would be just fine.

She is absolute garbage.

?si=1Ej94fuSGeXh-HZ4

MorbidButterflyTat

(2,231 posts)
68. I find this:
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 12:54 PM
Dec 2023

"Liberals beware: This political transformation is not, in fact, very transformative."

to be repulsively condescending.

And this:

"Her (Cheney's) message to anyone who has ever knitted a “pussy hat” hits right in the feels:..."

is just pathetic. "Lookit me! I use snappy words and said 'pussy'! Ha, ha!"

So what is she implying, that only "liberal" women are supposedly falling for Liz Cheney's "transformation"?

My mood right now is and I just don't think I can take the world today.

bigtree

(87,872 posts)
70. what is this nonsense about warning 'liberals'
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 01:04 PM
Dec 2023

...when it's the MSN pumping her.

Most liberals aren't attracted to fundamentalist republicans, no matter how anti-Trump they may be.

You have republican Jennifer Rubin telling Democrats how to 'support' Cheney, but we're really just using her like we would any anti-Trump republican willing to speak out against their own party.

Show me where she has an inch deep of support from 'liberals' that will mean anything in the next election.

She's pulling republicans away from Trump, not making a smidge of difference among Democratic support for Pres. Biden, so who cares if some liberal somewhere thinks she's the cheese right now?

hlthe2b

(103,706 posts)
78. My point exactly... It is rather condescending but apparently these writers/pundits feel the need to
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:39 PM
Dec 2023

"counsel" us all.

JHB

(37,194 posts)
97. You must have forgotten posts here like "Liz Cheney for Speaker?" or...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 06:41 PM
Dec 2023

..."Is there room in the Democratic Party for Liz Cheney?"

There are depressing numbers of people who want to project better motives onto Cheney than anything she's actually shown.

Links for threads mentioned above:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217518563
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216742859


Hekate

(92,560 posts)
77. How about all of us who aren't "beguiled," just grateful for an ally in saving democracy in this undeclared civil war
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 02:39 PM
Dec 2023

Really

idahoblue

(386 posts)
82. They started something they can't control.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 03:00 PM
Dec 2023

Cheney and the tea party started a right wing movement of racism, bigotry, xenophobia and ultra Christianity that they lost control of. What they started gave us trump and our movement toward fascism. Her only quality is a shred of integrity and honesty. But not honest enough to admit that this is what she started.

Dave Bowman

(2,480 posts)
84. The enemy of my enemy can be useful in...
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 03:16 PM
Dec 2023

Defeating said common enemy but ideally, in the end, the best outcome is them eating each other. So thanks, Liz, and gfy after you're done.

EleanorR

(2,425 posts)
85. We need R voices speaking out against trump, the more conservative the better
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 04:00 PM
Dec 2023

Cheney fits the bill. We're using her to achieve an end not asking her to prom, and to suggest we've been bewitched in some way is pretty insulting.

quakerboy

(14,001 posts)
86. She is not an ally
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 04:28 PM
Dec 2023

She is not doing anything that will help the country or the left or democrats.

Literally, she understands her assignment. And her assignment is to prepare the republican fallback position. To try and keep republican losses to a minimum, should trump and his forces fail to take the country.

Because while she may critique his style.. she wouldnt have done anything significant different on the policy side of things if shed been president instead of him.

slightlv

(3,415 posts)
91. I see Cheney as an ally against *rump. Period.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:11 PM
Dec 2023

I also have this sneaking hunch there's more here than meets the eye. Someone above mentioned the NeoCons. This has been my underlying thought all along. They don't want their 40+ year goal stolen by the Magas. Democrats will still be left out in the cold, freezing and starving. And 99% of what the *rumpists want will be achieved through NeoCon measures and policies.

From the start of all this, all testimony, reports, etc., were geared towards Republicans by Republicans. Only on the J6 Panel have we heard much from Democrats about all this. Of course, we're all in agreement that *rump must be kept from office again... ANY office. But loud and proud Democratic voices, ala Liz Cheney, have not been heard. Once in a while we're read a line from something Raskin or Whitehouse or someone else has said, but rarely do we read or hear full-throated testimonies from Democrats... on anything!

I guess I'm just getting tired of all attention being given to the R crowd. They've done nothing but much everything up. Biden, meanwhiles, tries to make our life better and gets no press but bad. Something is so wrong here.

jaxexpat

(7,244 posts)
95. The idea that a "powerful" USA is essential for worldwide political stability has more than one aspect.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 05:56 PM
Dec 2023

The USA as a powerful friend of justice and a champion for human rights is a proud and worthwhile ideal. A noble "shining city on a hill".
However, a powerful "friend" who maintains their power on the backs of the poor and limits spreading the security of wealth to the racially/socially acceptable is a friend to only the wealthy and a scourge to justice.

How naive are people like Liz Cheney must be to believe they are doing the will of the nation's founders while defending and promoting economic policies which enable brutal dictatorships around the globe. They refuse to connect the lines of observable fact which clearly show how totalitarianism is financed by profits gained by the already wealthy, ignoring evidence and denying the existence of gross injustice as the source of that wealth. Just as the simplest and coarsest items are the basic elements of any construction, slave labor is the basis of the global economy. It has been so since the onset of conquest and the dissemination of usury and compound interest onto an unsuspecting world.

People like that are never good for America nor is their ideal a reflection of respect for true power. Their sort of power is death to the progress of humanity. That's why they're call conservatives. Like undertakers, they conserve the already dead.

GuppyGal

(1,748 posts)
96. I know that I can both disagree on some/most things with a person yet find things to agree on and we have that
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 06:34 PM
Dec 2023

case right here. And I like the way she gives the smack down.

BlueIdaho

(13,582 posts)
101. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
Sat Dec 9, 2023, 08:10 PM
Dec 2023

Just because she is very vocal about the dangers of a second Trump administration doesn’t mean we share larger goals for our country…

Response to Just_Vote_Dem (Original post)

Pototan

(1,517 posts)
109. The enemy of my enemy is my friend
Sun Dec 10, 2023, 01:32 AM
Dec 2023

I welcome her assistance in trying to defeat Trump, even though I may disagree with her strategy.

Scalded Nun

(1,286 posts)
110. Don't like her. Would never vote for her. So she stands up to Trump because of his treasonous
Sun Dec 10, 2023, 01:35 AM
Dec 2023

behavior. Glad she did. I am so sick of elected officials being touted as heroes for doing what they should be doing.The fact that over 90% of republicans are traitorous cowards does not make the less than 10% brave and wonderful patriots. Cheney's political and policy views are, and have always been, dangerous. They fly in the face of everything I, as a democrat, believe in.

My welcome mat extends to her vocal warnings regarding Trump and the dangers he poses to this country. That is as far as it goes.

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