Why the "hamas could end this at any time" excuse doesn't work

[ecstatic]

Imagine if a soldier pointed a gun to your head and said, "Someone in your town, named Charlie, killed our brother. If Charlie doesn't surrender, I'm going to kill you, and it will be Charlie's fault!"

The soldier starts walking up and down your neighborhood, shooting everyone in the head, each time blaming Charlie.

"Charlie killed you! Not me."

In other words, whether you live or die is dependent upon what a criminal named Charlie does.

Does that sound fair or logical to you?

The bombs that are flattening Gaza are coming from Israel. Nobody else. The 18,000 mostly women, babies, children and doctors who have been killed, were killed by Israel.

And as far as the hamas terrorists? They were all allowed to escape after 10/7/23, when Israel's military waited up to 26 hours before responding to the attack. They're probably not even in Gaza anymore, thanks to bibi's massive failure of a response to an attack that he had over a year to prepare for. He failed miserably and is now bombing innocent people as a cruel deflection and distraction.

[Alent2]

1. Ex-U.S. Ambassador To Israel Says Netanyahu Should Step Down Amid War In Gaza

Martin Indyk, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, on Sunday called for the resignation of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, saying the leader poses a “clear and present” danger to his own country as the war in Gaza continues.

Indyk cited a report by The New York Times detailing how Netanyahu allowed and “encouraged” payments of millions of dollars every month from Qatar to Gaza for years, believing it would help ensure peace in the territory as he and others wrongly surmised that the Hamas militant group wasn’t interested in or capable of hurting Israel.

An official in Netanyahu’s office said many Israeli leaders have allowed payment to flow to Gaza, but only for humanitarian purposes. “Prime Minister Netanyahu acted to weaken Hamas significantly,” the official told the Times. “He led three powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders.”

Netanyahu also reportedly made the political calculation that if Hamas was in power in Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority governed in the West Bank, he would be able to avoid entering talks about Palestinian statehood, the Times said. Netanyahu has previously denied the suggestion, calling the idea that he would want to help Hamas build strength “ridiculous.”

Netanyahu “needs to resign before he does even more damage to Israel,” Indyk wrote on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/martin-indyk-benjamin-netanyahu-israel_n_6576fc9be4b0881b7917de25

[CincyDem]

2. Nice try. This is some pretty world class victim blaming here.

We’re not talking about the actions of some mythical Charlie hiding in a root cellar around the corner.

Hamas is the elected government. It is astounding that they get a pass from so many because, well…ya know…All Lives Matter.

Your absurd example fails to consider the terrorist attack isn’t a past event. It’s a daily activity for Hamas so this Charlie did it bs is just that.bs. Your Charlie is doing it every day.

Neither fair nor logical. Unfortunately for the citizens of Gaza, their elected government chooses to not do what it takes to make this stop.

[ecstatic]

5. The perpetrators got away

Thanks to bibi. I guess you're saying that it's okay to continue killing people who had nothing to do with the attack. When was their last election?

[CincyDem]

8. Perps got away...you know this how? Oh yeah, the lead guy hid in a humanitarian vehicle heading out to Egypt...lol

Chickenshit.

I guess Bibi should have prevented the humanitarian vehicles coming & going to prevent the perps from escaping. Of course, then it would Bibi's fault for something else or something else etc etc etc.

People who had nothing to do with the attack...and you know this how? Maybe the UNAWR teacher who kept a hostage in his attic for 50+ days didn't have anything to do with the attack but he sure was actively involved in keeping it going. Wanna bet he was one of the 44% of the Gaza voting population that picked Hamas as their representative government.

Their last election...we both know it was 2006? And it's not my concern...they elected the government without reading past Hamas' core purpose...let's kill Jews and to hell with everything else, including future election. Devil's always in the details and I guess that's Bibi's fault too.

Love to stay and chat but we're out of eggnog so I gotta run out in the cold...f'ing Bibi...it's his fault.

BTW - you see the Packer's game...who the hell called in that 2-point conversion play at the end...Bibi???

[ecstatic]

13. And your solution is what? To continue bombing?

Kill everyone in Gaza?

Would you be okay with your neighborhood being flattened to find criminals or terrorists?

Yes or no?

[CincyDem]

15. My solution is simple. Send the hostages and the bodies home.

Until Hamas decides to end this, I guess it continues. Once you conclude, as you argue in the original post, that Hamas has no ability to stop this…you’re arguing to continue this.

What’s your solution? Give Hamas a pass and tell them the world is good with 10/7 reruns?

[tritsofme]

11. No one has feared new elections more than "president" Abbas, serving in year 18 of his 4 year term

that Hamas would rout Fatah not just in Gaza, but the West Bank as well.

[Dirty Socialist]

12. Many perps didn't get away

Some Hamas fighters did get away, but about 2,000 were killed while attacking on Oct. 7.

[Mosby]

24. Hundreds if not thousands of Hamas fighters have been arrested

So they clearly didn't get away as you claim.

[LexVegas]

3. Uh, what? nt

[DavidDvorkin]

4. It's not an excuse

Last edited Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:43 AM - Edit history (1)

It's a simple statement of fact, a very clear and obvious fact. That people are blind to that astonishes me.

[TheKentuckian]

6. Not even a functional over simplification.

Instead they actually have tens of thousands of operatives that are embedded into the population and function as the government of Gaza using their population as human shields and a psychological and legal warfare props.

Hamas has skipped town?

Another bunch of mularkey.

[JI7]

7. huh ?

[prodigitalson]

9. I absolutely agree with you problem is.. I also agree with

the Israeli sentiment of "how can we possibly allow Hamas to go on being?"

both sides Israeli/Palestinian - not Likud/;Hamas - have a good point while being stupid.

[enid602]

10. Real estate

This war is all about real estate. Whichever PM can deliver Gaza and the West Bank (sans Palestinians) is golden.

[elias7]

16. You obviously do not understand the conflict. It is not about real estate at all to Israel

Israel, which is just over 8000 mi.², has no oil, captured the Sinai peninsula, 23,000 mi.², in 1967 as Egypt had been massing troops in an unprovoked overture to war.

Explain this to me: If the issue was about real estate, Israel would now be four times the size it is today and it would be rich from oil. Yet, Israel returned this land to Egypt in 1978 for a peace treaty with Egypt and an acknowledgment of their right to exist. This does not square with your real estate theory.

[enid602]

25. Occupation, oil

Israel received Egypt’s recognition of Israel’s right to exist, which was their primary motivation to sign the treaty which ended their 12 year occupation of Sinai. Egypt was the first Arab country to recognize Israel. This was a huge benefit for Israel at the time.

Although Sinai had commercially exploitable oil reserves, this does not appear to be a factor in the negotiations. Discovery of the Gaza Marine Basin gas fields in 1999 does give a bit more value to that piece of real estate.

[malaise]

14. Shhhhhhhhhhh,

That’s way too logical
Nothing justifies this response.

[elias7]

17. Nothing justifies the attack in the first place.

You’re really OK with women being raped in front of their families, babies being beheaded, people living in kibbutzim near Gaza in an attempt to show solidarity with Palestinians killed in cold blood? I see you criticizing Israel all the time yet give minor lip service to the initial provocation.

[TheKentuckian]

19. It is tough when you agree with the aims but aren't quite up for saying so

and have quibbles about the methods, I reckon.

[obamanut2012]

23. "It is tough when you agree with the aims but aren't quite up for saying so" -- what are you accusing Malaise of here?

[obamanut2012]

22. "You're really OK with women being raped in front of their families, babies being beheaded, people living in kibbutz"

Malaise said nothing of the kind, so why are you stating she did?

Wow.

[Calculating]

29. The argument was that nothing justifies this response

The horrible crimes committee by Hamas on that day do IMO. Hamas did insanely awful things like you'd imagine some kind of satanic cult doing. Raping and butchering women in front of their families, torturing kids to death in front of their families, cooking babies in the oven, just what in the actual hell? Nothing Israel did ever could justify the sheer level of awful that attack involved.

Israel is sending a message, and that message is "we said never again, and we meant it". Hamas managed to bring horror to the Jews not seen since the Nazis, and we're seeing the result of that.

[leftstreet]

18. DURec

[Sympthsical]

20. This analogy doesn't work

It's more if Charlie were standing right there. You have to take him down because he's dangerous and will kill you and your family. However, he keeps holding his friends directly in front of him. In an ideal world, you're a sharpshooter who can thread the needle and only kill Charlie when you fire. To stave this off, Charlie starts piling more and more people in front of him to block you. And you know, if you walk away from the situation, Charlie will immediately come after you again.

What do you do?

No one has a good explanation for this.

Hamas has created a situation - very much by design - to put as many civilians between themselves and retribution for their attacks. They have stated - very clearly and openly - that they have done so, because they want the world to freak out on Israel when Israel goes after them.

It's amazing when Hamas is sitting there telling everyone who will listen, "We purposefully are getting civilians killed so Westerners will get mad at Israel," and it's working like a charm.

I've said it before, and it bears repeating. When a terrorist organization says, "Hey Westerners, we need you to carry our water for us," the response really shouldn't be people showing up enthusiastically with their own buckets.

[ecstatic]

31. Thank you for your example. I'm finally starting to understand the other point of view BUT

here's the problem (in my opinion): Israel is not the only country in the world that has to deal with criminals and terrorists. God knows we have a lot of criminals and even terrorists within our own borders, but intelligent people have determined that the best way forward is to create and improve our criminal justice system, come up with systems to detect and deter crime, and then SWIFTLY deal with criminals when they are exposed and accessible. We don't wait hours and days to respond to attacks. And we don't flatten US towns and cities to catch the bad guys .

What am I missing?

Can you cite an example of an advanced country in this century wiping out so many innocent women and children so quickly in order to catch bad guys? And there's no end game. Bibi has no strategy other than to lob bombs randomly upon a helpless population.

This is not going to make Israel safer.

The situation required a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

[FHRRK]

21. Maybe some context will help

When people form decisions and make decisions based on fear then often the decisions don't seem to be logical.

That is my belief as to what is going on, so you are applying a logic filter that others are not applying.

[LonePirate]

26. Is the soldier in this story supposed to represent Israel or Hamas? Both seem applicable. Also ...

If Hamas allegedly fled, where are the remaining hostages and who is holding them?

[FBaggins]

27. It's your strawman that "doesn't work". Hamas could indeed end this at any time

It isn't "some guy named Charlie" and it wasn't a criminal act - it's the government of the Gaza strip and it was an act of war.

Nor is the soldier walking up and down the street shooting everyone in the head. It's a soldier announcing where he is attacking and warning all civilians to get out of the area... while "Charlie" (who you pretend isn't even there) tells them to stay.

As for your CT woo re: "allowed to escape"? That's gone pretty far around the bend. Where did they escape to? Egypt won't let civilians in for a desire to keep Hamas from sneaking in with them... but you think thousands upon thousands of them got away? Or perhaps it was by submarine? Maybe they're holding/releasing hundreds of hostages by remote control? (and firing rockets of course)

And even if all of that ridiculous nonsense were true... Why not "surrender" since they aren't even there?

[yardwork]

28. It's not an "excuse."

I find your OP offensive on several levels. Jeez. Just, no.

[MattBaggins]

30. Not entirely true

Someone is still holding hostages

At a bare minimum, release them