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Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:28 PM

Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped

Here's Ebony magazine's take on the issue that was highlighted recently when the PA Liquor Control Board put out an ad that they were later forced to pull due to widespread outrage.

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/stop-telling-women-how-to-not-get-raped

New rule for 2012: No more ad campaigns and public service announcements targeted at women to teach them how to avoid rape. It’s not effective, it’s offensive, and it’s also a lie. Telling women that they can behave in a certain way to avoid rape creates a false sense of security and it isn’t the most effective way to lower the horrible statistics which show that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime. The numbers for African American women are even higher at nearly 1 in 4.

We need anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys. Campaigns that teach them from a young age how to respect women, and ultimately themselves, and to never ever be rapists. In addition, we should implore our men and boys to call out their friends, relatives, and classmates for inappropriate behavior and create systems of accountability amongst them.

There are a number of men who do not understand what constitutes a “rape”, which is a consequence of the “stranger in the alley” falsehood presented in movies and popular culture. You don’t need a mask and a gun to sexually violate a woman. The truth is that rape can happen with a woman you are dating whom you’ve had sex with previously, in a monogamous relationship, and even in marriage. If one party withdraws consent at any time then it’s rape. Consent can be withdrawn by the words “no “or “stop” and in many states, a woman doesn’t have to say no at all. Consumption of alcohol can prevent a woman from being able to legally offer consent. Therefore, it is important for men and women alike to be very clear about their intentions and prioritize consent over the excitement of getting some.

(snip)

How about we teach young men when a woman says stop, they stop? How about we teach young men that when a woman has too much to drink that they should not have sex with her, if for no other reason but to protect themselves from being accused of a crime? How about we teach young men that when they see their friends doing something inappropriate to intervene or to stop being friends? The culture that allows men to violate women will continue to flourish so long as there is no great social consequence for men who do so. And while many men punished for sexual assaults each year, countless others are able to commit rape and other crimes against women because we so often blame the victim instead of the guilty party.

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Reply Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped (Original post)
redqueen Jan 2012 OP
Quantess Jan 2012 #1
arcane1 Jan 2012 #2
Remember Me Jan 2012 #52
arcane1 Jan 2012 #119
Orsino Jan 2012 #163
Hugabear Jan 2012 #3
redqueen Jan 2012 #7
ret5hd Jan 2012 #28
redqueen Jan 2012 #29
ret5hd Jan 2012 #34
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #35
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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:33 PM

1. But if men stopped raping then women wouldn't get so many lectures and blame-the-victim anymore.

Where's the fun in that?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:35 PM

2. Indeed. I'm all for teaching basic safety and awareness, which are good things for everyone to learn

 

whether it's rape or robbery or whatever. But it's only treating the symptoms, not the disease.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 08:57 PM

52. How so? I see the OP as promoting a way to start addressing the cause --

 

How is it you do not?

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:45 AM

119. I was generalizing, not speaking specifically to the OP n/t

 

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:21 PM

163. Yes. The subject line is simply misleading.

It never was an either/or question.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:39 PM

3. Can we do both?

For example, you can find articles about "how to avoid getting robbed" that don't blame the victims.

It should be possible to come up with pointers that don't place blame on the woman, delving into sexist stereotypes, or resorting to arguments that have already been proven false.

But I agree 100% that there should be an aggressive anti-rape campaign that targets young men and boys.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:43 PM

7. Yeah, when people don't even know what rape is,

by which I mean they think it only counts as 'rape' rape (thanks, Whoopi) if a weapon is used and there's extreme violence involved, then you know we're not doing a very good job of trying to prevent it. At all.

Some people deny date rape even exists. I agree we shouldn't be qualifying it (rape is rape), but the idea that someone can just 'get their signals mixed up' and 'accidentally' or 'unintentionally' rape someone is 100% bull****.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:03 PM

28. can you point me somewhere reputable and non-anectdotal where the existence of date-rape is...

denied?

i cna point to people who deny the earth os round, but no one is really listening.

on edit horrible typo.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:09 PM

29. Expounded as in explained?

Or did you want a reference to some place that said there's no such thing?

Oops, saw the edit... what exactly do you mean by reputable and non-anecdotal? It's been implied by legislators, and outright stated by many, many individuals (but these are anecdotal, I take it?)

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for, sorry.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:36 PM

34. well, just point me towards your best source, the on most likely to make me say...

"wow, the problem of 'denying date-rape happens is real and prevalent and i am wrong and will have to change my beliefs'."

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:48 PM

35. Perhaps you could start here ...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20011107.html

"The reason for such skepticism and doubt is the possibility that the victim might have liked her assailant. If she did, some believe, then having him force himself on her could not have been that bad."

Then try googling "issues associated with date rape"

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:05 PM

40. 1 & 2 are completely anecdotal...a crackpot ga rep and a govt justice employee do not constitute...

evidence of a prevalent opinion.

the third however, i will have to read and get back to you.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #40)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:12 PM

42. Susan Estrich is a respected law professor

She is expressing an expert opinion through anecdotes in order to foster understanding.

Again "google" issues with date rape and you will find a wealth of information.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:13 PM

43. this article does not speak to denial of date rape, but to minimalizing the crime.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:19 PM

44. Excuse me ...?

"THE PROBLEM WITH MAINSTREAM ATTITUDES TOWARD DATE RAPE" is the title of the article.

The article clearly outlines the societal attitudes toward date rape ... due to the prevalence of a societal tendency to deny date rape it is difficult if not impossible to prosecute the crime if folk deny that it is a crime.

Seriously, did you read the article ....?

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:51 PM

36. "real and prevalent" to you...

I'll post some links. Somehow I suspect you'll find them all easy to dismiss. Meanwhile a very short amount of time spent looking into the epidemic of rapes on college campuses would seem to indicate that either many, many college age men are dedicated rapists, or that they simply don't consider what they're doing to be 'rape' rape, and therefore it's ok.

http://www.dlcc.org/GA_Rep_Says_No_Such_Thing_as_Rape_Victims
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/may/18/kenneth-clarke-edmiliband
http://www.sexhealthnews.org/articles/Rape%20-%20Crime%20or%20Confusion.pdf

And of course there are tons of individuals claiming date rape doesn't exist, and that it's only a fiction made up by women who regret sleeping with someone.

I didn't spend much time looking for this, either.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:06 PM

41. oops, replied to #35 instead of you. please forgive.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 04:31 PM

168. Not that the FBI is particularly "reputable," but they didn't admit there was such a thing

as date rape until a few days ago. Not in their statistics 'cause it wasn't a "crime."

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Response to redqueen (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:28 PM

61. I was almost raped in college, and didn't realize it

The reason I didn't realize it, is because I was on a date, and I didn't realize that on a date, being forced to have sex constitutes rape.

We went to see a movie, drove back to campus, he parked and out of the blue he grabbed me. No warning. He started unbuttoning my clothes, and I tried to get away. While he was busy unbuttoning (and I hitting him), I opened the door and almost fell out. Since now the door was open, and I was out, I grabbed my purse and took off. I didn't realize I could report him, should report him. To be sure, I didn't see him again and I told all my female friends at the dorm what had happened. Their reaction? Something like: "Oh man, what an ass." I should've reported him but didn't know that was cause for reporting him. I honestly didn't.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:59 AM

88. That is very common.

We are sent many mixed messages about sex and consent. And many more about how poor, blameless men just 'can't help themselves' so women should be very careful not to 'lead them on'.

In this very thread people are busy absolving men of responsibility.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:12 AM

92. everything in our society directs, leads, conditions to this and we act like

 

there is no way there can be an effect on our youth.

i personally am not going to demonizing all our boys, becuase we have such a fucked up society that uses rae as entertainment and places male sexuality at such a height of awesomeness it is all that he is.

all of this feed our boys

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:45 AM

120. That happened to me a few times

and twice I was date raped. All times alcohol was involved, and all times I said "NO" loudly and clearly (and physically tried to get away).
I didn't report any of it. At the time I figured I was drunk so I deserved it. Date rape wasn't really 'recognized' as 'rape rape' as someone said, back then. I didn't figure out that's what it was until I was an adult and watched some public service message after some tv show that had a date rape scene. It was an eye opener, that's for sure, to realize you were, indeed, raped.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:46 AM

136. It's so weird isn't it? For the longest time I felt that it was part of my role in life to

be okay with such things.

What a bad way to think.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:47 PM

11. I agree. There is always value to teaching people how to avoid being victimized.

In no way does giving potential victims tools to deal with rapists excuse the actions of the rapist. Of course victims should never be victimized a second time for somehow making them think that they were to blame for the crime. But women, children, and men can be taught how to avoid being victims of crime. I

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:51 PM

13. Unfortunately, the blame DOES get put on the women by these "guides"

 

In that it places the responsibility on women to avoid being raped. It creates the assumption that if they are raped, it's not because they were victimized by an abuser and a criminal, but rather because they "failed." I'm sure it's not malicious; I believe these sort of guides really are put out with the best interests of women intended. The problem is, it has unintended effects - woman who gets raped may never report it, under the belief that the authorities will just shake their heads over her not "following the guidelines" for instance. It's the right intent, but a flawed approach.

Further it perpetuates a sort of culture of isolation among women; the idea that a woman must always be "on guard" against rapists does have a psychological effect, and can lead to a sort of siege mentality. After all, it's the woman who is being told to change her habits, wear different clothes, be on the defensive, in order to protect against an assault that the guides often seem to paint as inevitable iff she DOESN'T do so. Many of these guides also seem to make the terribly false assumption that most rapists are people who jump you in empty parking lots.

Comparing it to "how to not get robbed" isn't exactly accurate, either; our culture doesn't have any real history of blaming victims of robbery for the crime perpetuated against them, nor does it ostracize or attack victims of robbery. Robbery victims are generally met with sympathy, while rape victims are distressingly often treated as "sluts" who somehow brought it upon themselves. "well what you you expect, wearing makeup like that?!"

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:09 PM

170. Agreed. We can approach the problem from more than one angle. nt.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:39 PM

4. A balance approach is requried

Teaching that no means no and that force is never acceptable is clearly needed. So is the ability of the victim to stop the perp in their tracks.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:40 PM

5. Unfortunately people like the Dominique Strauss-Kahns of this world will never learn these lessons,

so "don't go into a room alone with Dominique Strauss-Kahn" is probably good advice for any woman.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:42 PM

6. Is there a copy of the ad somewhere

 


I missed it when it came around before, now my curiosity is piqued.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:46 PM

9. Oh, wow, that's worse than I thought

 


Creepy.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:14 AM

94. they sexualized the girl while addressing rape. ONE of the many examples fed to our

 

kids

on the one hand a message rape is bad. on another hand, sexualize the victim as a titillation feeding the stimulation instead of showing the actual ugly of rape.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:47 PM

10. headline is not very pleasant

 

and I find it disturbing. I'm one of those that think the term rape should not be tossed around lightly.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:51 PM

14. I agree it shouldn't be tossed around lightly.

I don't particularly like seeing terms like 'fraped' or colloquialisms where 'rape' is used a synonym for harsh or unfair treatment.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:54 PM

16. yup

 

I think some young people today use it that way, and I cringe when I see it. They use it for shock value and think its cool or something.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:49 PM

12. How not to get raped

 

Carry a handgun or mace.

Use it if some asshole comes after you.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:31 PM

23. How not to get the point

The point of the article was that "rape" is not just the "stranger in a dark alley" kind.

Your suggestion assumes that only "assholes" commit rape. I think you'd be surprised how many rapes are perpetrated by intimate partners, boyfriends, bosses, etc., etc., etc.

The point of the article was that the best rape prevention starts with the potential rapist, not with the potential victim.



TG

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #23)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:17 PM

31. Not to speak for the poster you're responding to,

 

but I would argue that anybody boss, intimate partner etc who rapes is an asshole.

Obviously the best prevention is to not rape, but there are always going to be criminals, whether it's rapists or thieves etc. Being prepared is a good thing, whether it's locking your door or bringing enough gear when going hiking.

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Response to mythology (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:22 PM

33. Still missing the point...

the insistence is that only horrible criminals who go into the situation intending to rape someone commit rapes.

When the truth is that partners of all kinds rape, either because they're socialized not to pay close attention to cues, to think of their wants as paramount, to think that 'no' means 'yes', etc.

The tired advice that's been directed at women is very old. We know it all. So stop repeating it, and let's start aiming our advice at boys and men, too.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:08 PM

54. You might as well try to educate lions not to prey on gazelles or whatever.

 

These men, ESPECIALLY intimate partners, know the cues. They hear the word 'no'. ESPECIALLY bosses and such. They all know the rules.

The problem is that when they want what they want (which in this case is sex), they don't care. They can't be made to care. All the education in the world is never, ever going to help.

You think more highly of intimate partners, bosses and boyfriends, etc. who commit rape and sexual harassment. You think they can be educated. They cannot. They must either be deterred... or done away with.

The way to do that is not for women to "avoid ATMs at night" or that BS. It's not even about educating these men. It's about putting them down. HARD. More of these fools need to be made an example of.

The only thing you aim at boys and men who attempt to rape, be they a street punk or an intimate whatever or a boss, is a gun, a can of mace, or a well-trained hand.

May I suggest learning Krav Maga?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:21 PM

59. In other words, you're saying that

men cannot be stopped from raping. It is their nature, and there's nothing that cane be done to stop it. They are natural born rapists and cannot be tamed, trained, or controlled.

I'm sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this.

If men can be "trained" not to rape during daylight hours on public streets, and most of them seem to have been successfully trained that way, then they can be trained not to rape in bars and at night and on dates.

If men can be 'trained" via movies and advertising and song lyrics and the approval of their peers that it's okay to force their sex drive on women who don't want them, they can be "trained" not to.

Make up your mind: It's either uncontrollable nature, in which case most men should be locked up right now or even killed in the womb, or it's controllable by nurture. and if it's controllable by nurture/education/training, then we damn well ought to start doing it.



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:25 PM

64. No, I am saying that people who are deviant are deviant.

 

It's not in a man's nature to rape, but there are some men who act like animals.

You train them by taking them OUT and making an example of it to other men.

We do enough propaganda about how rape is evil - and said propaganda is good, mind you. These guys get the message day in and day out.

The world is already separated into the men who act civilized and these rapist animals. There ain't much in between. If you force sex on a woman you know better, unless you are insane.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:57 PM

68. Nonsense

You've missed the point.

The education strategy targets the "normal" guys who are not "animals" but who are nonetheless rapists.

I would recommend you do a little more study of the subject before you make these simplistic remarks. Many rapists are "normal" guys who do not consider what they do to be "forcing" sex on their victims. They believe -- because they've been culturally accustomed to that belief -- that if a woman is drinking in a bar, she's asking for sex. They believe that if a woman is wearing provacative clothes, that she is asking for sex. They believe that if a woman agrees to go on a date with them, that she is consenting to sex with them. They believe that if a woman is at a party and does not have a date, that they are free to have sex with her. They believe that if she has had sex with them before, or with a friend, or they think she had sex with a friend, that she is required to have sex with them and she has relinquished all rights to say no.

These are the guys we're talking about. We're not talking about raving lunatics who skulk in parking garages and on deserted subway platforms or brain-damaged parolees who wait until the all the library patrons have left and it's just librarian there by herself. These people are actually a very small percentage of rapists. Most are "ordinary guys" who have internalized all the messages thrown at them by movies and magazine ads and popular music and tv and even DU discussions, that they're entitled to sex and women have no right to say no and mean it.

We don't have enough "propaganda" about rape being evil. What we do have, however, is tons and tons and tons and tons of propaganda that women are there for the taking, that women are suitable victims, that women are only good for one thing, that women are worthless and useless and objects, that they don't count and don't matter.



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:00 AM

89. how about if we simple change our language for our younger boys. make sure girl is enthusiastic

 

as enthusiastic at having sex.

that is a whole shift in todays thinking.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:12 AM

93. And stop telling girls it's bad to be that way.

That men will think less of them and will only want to use them, and not consider them relationship material.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:17 AM

96. exactly allow a girl ownership of her sexuality. which is exactly opposite what society does today

 

in all our progressiveness, the girl/woman is constantly handing her sexuality to male instead of owning it. it is all about what she can do for him. it is all about his sexuality. allow the girl/woman to have ownership of her own. as we do boys/men

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:22 AM

98. Enthusiasm shouldn't be confused with consenting.

It still leaves open a defense of "She said 'no' but I thought it was just part of an enthusiastic game she was playing." And a woman can be enthusiastic through foreplay and then suddenly decide she doesn't want to go through with it; does her "enthusiasm" override her right to say no at the last minute?

Inventing or changing language is far more difficult than using the language we already have. Besides, it won't counter the existing propaganda that says women are fair game, men's sexual desires override women's integrity.

NO MEANS NO is really simple to understand, but we need a cultural change so that advertising and movies and music and everything returns ownership of women's bodies to themselves.

Otherwise, if we go along with this "You shouldn't go there, you shouldn't wear that, or you'll be sorry and it'll be your fault " kind of restrictions on women's behavior, we're essentially saying men are NOT responsible, can't be trusted, can't be trained, and yet we're letting them be in charge and make the rules!!

For further reading --

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/07/10/anti-rape-campaign-for-once-tells-men-not-to-rape/

http://mystrength.org/5.0.html

http://www.xojane.com/relationships/rape-campaign-finally-admits-men-have-something-do-it

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:26 AM

101. i would say, when she says stop, there is no longer the enthusiasm. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:37 AM

118. And that goes right back to the original point

It's not about "enthusiasm" -- it's about NO.

More important, though, is it's about educating and acculturating (much more difficult) men and boys to not rape. To not insist on sex. To not EXPECT sex as a right.

How do you do that, as a parent or an educator, when there are so many messages out there that say SCORE, SCORE, SCORE? When the media -- especially advertising -- constantly demeans women? The PLCB ad was just another example of how prevasive it is? Not a whole woman, not an acting woman, just part of a body, panties at her ankles. The same with the UK campaign -- not a whole body, just part of one, The woman dehumanized, reduced to a torso in knickers.

Look at the trailer for "Miss Representation." Look at Jean Kilbourne's videos, updated and updated and updated because the media is not getting -- or doesn't want to get -- the message.

Women are people, too. And we are psychologically and sociologically shaped by the culture around us. And it's a culture that demeans and dismisses women. it's a culture that celebrates sexual scoring even when the scoree is unwilling.

Margarat Atwood once said or wrote -- I don't have the exact quote in front of me but I can get it quickly enough -- "Ask men what their greatest fear of women is, and they'll say they're afraid women will laugh at them. Ask women what their greatest fear of men is, and they'll say they're afraid of being killed." That should give you some idea of the power imbalance here.

Men who rape -- and not all men DO -- often rape because they can. They have sex with a woman because they know they can, they know she can't or won't fight back. They don't think of it as rape because rape is stranger-in-an-alley-with-a-gun, and that isn't want they're doing. They're just taking what they think is theirs, because they bought her dinner or they slept with her last week or their best friend lived with her for a month or so and dumped her.

It's all about telling THESE guys, the ones who ARE teachable, that no means no. Period. At any time, at any place, at any point along the continuum from first kiss to penetration, NO means NO. it's not up to the guy to interpret whether no means maybe or yes or keep trying. It means NO. He doesn't have to gauge her level of enthusiasm, he just needs to learn that no matter what the latest music video says, NO means NO. No matter what the hottest pop star is doing or saying, regardless of gender, NO means No.

And as simple as that seems, it's a very difficult point to get across, as the length of this thread and others like it shows.



TG

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:56 AM

122. i agree with all of it until the end

 

and i strongly disagree. many girls will say yes for many different reasons and really not want the sex. i want my kids (boys) to be perceptive and aware enough to be able to see that instead of waiting for the no. i case it does not come. in case her no is internal and never makes it to her lips, for whatever reason.

but... i agree with ALL you say in your post. how our culture feeds and encourages so many unhealthy in both gender.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:47 AM

114. Thank you.

 

Agreed, needs to be mentioned again.

Enthusiasm is NOT consent. Really.

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #114)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:09 AM

115. the point is, and must be clear. because a girl says yes

 

may be feeling pressure in having the sex. hence, the ethusiasm. as much want as the guy. a clear picture that it is mutual. actually, it works for the guy, too. they may feel pressure, too. and they may feel less than enthusiastic, too. no more for them than for a girl.

i dont know how you can get, that she says no and there can be an interpretation of enthusiasm. no pretty much squelches the enthusiasm meter.

i want it clear to my boys to only have sex when it is wanted in a two way manner.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #89)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:20 PM

198. that's pretty smart. nt

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:19 AM

133. I guess you didn't read what I said. Anyone who fails to obey "no"

 

for any reason, is criminally deviant and deserving to be made a serious example of. Boyfriend, boss, intimate partner, someone at a party, etc.

I don't buy into arbitrary lines between dark alley rape and spousal / date rape. The word at the end is rape, it's rape. Life's simple like that.

Perhaps the problem is that we don't really sock it to these boyfriends, bosses and all these other people you label as being outside of the "dark alley marauders", when they force sex on a woman.

This ain't the same as saying all men are rapists. It's saying that rape is rape is rape and when you cross that line it doesn't matter who you are, you need to be put down.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #133)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:56 PM

159. I did read what you wrote

And I'm saying that many rapists are not "criminally deviant." Given what we know -- and don't know -- about criminal and/or deviant behavior, most rapists are not deviant.

Rather than allow them to continue to rape and then make examples of them, the current argument is that perhaps changing the culture and changing BEFORE IT HAPPENS the way rape is seen, that it can be prevented. Why not prevent rather than punish?

Altering the criminal code, and the mental health diagnostics that would be required for a "deviant" status, would be very very difficult, and would likely encounter a HUGE backlash, perhaps to the point that prosecution for rape would become nearly as difficult as it was before such concepts as date rape, spousal rape, and even rape shield laws entered the prosecutorial process.

When you have a culture that implies "no" really means "try again," a culture in which women are depicted as sexual objects and often nothing more, many rapes are not seens as "real" rape. Susan Estrich wrote a whole book about "Real Rape." Susan Griffin, Diana E. H. Russell, Susan Faludi, David Finkelhor, and others I've mentioned in previous threads have studied and reported on "real" rape as well as the "other" kinds.

It's not "deviant" behavior if it complies with the cultural norms. Sadly, some of our cultural norms DO encourage rape, DO exonerate rapists, DO blame women for their own victimization.

Yes we do still have violent stranger rape, and generally when that happens and the rapist is identified and caught, there is severe punishment. But if the culture dictates that the woman is to blame, if the culture dictates that she has no power to accuse, if the culture dictates that her rapist will more often than not be exonerated, then the threat of punishment serves no purpose. Remember, the death penalty has not deterred murderers.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #159)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 06:31 PM

169. How do you suppose to educate someone who excuses spousal rape?

 

Okay let me try this from another angle, since this keeps drifting back to street thugs. Let's talk directly and exclusively here about husbands who force sex on their wives - I will reiterate again, husbands who force sex on their wives are scum. Cultural "norms" is a bullshit term to excuse the big gaping moral black hole in the soul of a husband who cannot heed his wife's objections and proceeds to force her into sex.

If anything, a husband who forces sex on his wife is even WORSE than a street thug. That's his wife and he doesn't have the human decency to respect her wishes concerning her body? We're talking betrayal times 9000. How in the hell are we supposed to educate a monster like that? That don't make nobody's damned sense. Think about it for a second. "I know you're my wife, I know I'm supposed to love you, but I'm going to force sex on you even if you don't want it." How the heck do you educate a mind like that? I'm utterly baffled.

I see no rational reason in this modern age for these men not to understand the word "no" from their spouses / girlfriends. "Cultural norms" just doesn't explain why a husband would disregard his wife on such a big issue as her own body.

Fine, you're right, education is the key. So let's go with that. What the hell does anyone expect to be able to reach a mind so far gone that he ignores the wishes of his wife and betrays her to hell and back by forcing sex upon her?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #169)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:39 PM

174. First of all, unless you've been there, don't presume to know what it's like

from either perspective.

Now, when you can get off your high horse and calm down, maybe we can further this discussion.

I've been there. Not anecdotes from friends, not case histories in books, not interviews with county jail inmates. Me. My experience. First hand.

And I'm going to say you don't know what the bloody fuck you're talking about.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #174)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:58 PM

175. Excuse me? You're the one cursing and getting irrational. I don't need to know what it's like

 

Do I need to know what it's like to be a victim of abuse to say abuse is wrong, and worse when it's a loved one? Heck no. Likewise your argument doesn't work that way here, either.

Second, I asked you specifically, what kind of education do you hope to use on these animals that excuse or engage in spousal rape. Instead of answering that, you come up with this?

People who commit spousal rape are vile individuals who betray their own wives. People who excuse this behavior are beyond any hope of educating. I say your idea doesn't work. Now show me otherwise. Put up your so-called "education" plan. Show us how much you know of what you're talking about.

Show
me
the
PROGRAM.

Till then you've got nothin'.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #175)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 12:11 AM

185. I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality.

You have been suggesting throughout your posts that "deviants" who force others, including wives, girlfriends, or even strangers, into having sex ought to be made examples of. Unfortunately, we don't have a justice system in place to handle most of those cases should they be brought to court. And we certainly don't have a prison system large enough to contain all the convicted perps, assuming any would actually be convicted.

Until the 1978 Oregon case of Greta and John Rideout, there was virtually no such legal thing as spousal rape. The cultural and legal understanding was that marriage gave the husband not only exclusive sexual rights to his wife but that he could exercise those rights at any time with or without her expressed consent. Similar to the laws of implied consent that come with a driver's license -- if you're asked to take a blood alcohol test, you can't say you didn't consent, because you've implied your consent when you accept the license -- the marriage license was considered the woman's permanent and irrevocable consent to sex, whenever, however, wherever her husband wanted it. She no longer had ownership of her own body; it belonged to her husband.

I don't know when you were born, Zalatrix, but I was married in 1969. My children were born in 1976 and 1977. I was raised and married in a time and in a culture when spousal sexual rights had the force of law. Because most such laws are set by states rather than the federal government, in the wake of the Rideout case, more states began to pass laws regarding marital rape, and one such debate produced the quote from an outraged California assemblyman, "If we can't rape our wives, who can we rape?" (Variously attributed to British politicians as well; I have the original reference somewhere in my notes but I'm not going to look for it now.) The point is that even into the 1990s, some states still prohibited charges of rape within a marriage.

What's moral and what's reprehensible may not be distinctions under the law, and when the law is on one side, it's pretty damn difficult for the other side to fight back. Not impossible, but still difficult.

The Rideout case ended in acquittal for John because, as one juror said, they didn't know who to believe and therefore there was reasonable doubt. Even with laws in place prohibiting marital rape, how does one prosecute? If it's not forcible rape that leaves bruises or other physical evidence of force (which can be explained away anyway) and there are no witnesses, what jury will convict? How does one present evidence of coercion?

Have you ever read the story of Charlotte and John Fedders? Raised a devout Catholic and trained as a nurse, Charlotte wanted nothing more than to be a devoted wife and mother, raising lots and lots of Catholic children. She married John Fedders, who eventually would become chief enforcement officer with the Securities and Exchange Commission. He made a lot of money and he kept her in a very nice home and put their six boys in Catholic school and belonged to the country club and presented a public face of utmost respectability. But he was violently abusive, and Charlotte, raised to believe the external trappings of success were incompatible with his behavior -- successful men didn't behave like that, only poor trashy folks did -- denied his abuse for years. She had internalized all the propaganda.

Francine Hughes and her husband Mickey might have fit Charlotte's image of trashy people. Mickey was so abusive that Francine killed him by setting fire to the bed he was sleeping in; her account "The Burning Bed" was turned into the TV movie that brought the late Farrah Fawcett an Emmy nomination. How long ago did Francine kill Mickey? 1977. Just about that same time that John Rideout was (allegedly) raping his wife Greta. And not too long after that, the big pop culture event was the rape-followed-by-the-wedding of Luke and Laura on the soap opera General Hospital. Rape morphed into seduction morphed into love. So which was it?

Is it any wonder women like Charlotte Fedders were confused? She knew John was violently abusive. He'd kicked her down a flight of stairs and caused her to miscarry. He'd broken her ribs. Unlike Francine Hughes, Charlotte had resources -- not the least of which was professional training that would have enabled her to earn a living independent of John -- but she was also receiving all these conflicting cultural messages.

Read Susan Douglas' "Where the Girls Are" to get some idea of the mixed messages sent to girls in the 1960s and 1970s. Watch Jean Kilbourne's videos on the media's images of women in teh 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s. Understand that both men and women, beginning before puberty, are bombarded with these images and messages.

Now I'm going to throw another cultural bombshell into this mix -- the 1972 publication of the blockbuster historical romance novel "The Flame and the Flower" by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss. "Gone With the Wind" had had another theatrical release in 1967 and would make its TV debut in 1976; whether that TV release was in response to the by-then explosion of paperback original romance novels, I don't know, but I do know that rape-as-romance had become a cultural phenomenon. Regardless whether you like or loathe them, historical romances of the 1970s were -- and remain -- a major industry and cultural influence, and the debate over whether it's rape or forced seduction or romance or whatever continues.

And what's the most "romantic" scene in "Gone with the Wind"? Why it's when Rhett hauls Scarlett up those stairs and has his wicked way with her against her will and then she's purrin' like a kitten the next morning. Rape as romance.

Of course it's fantasy. We all know it's fantasy. We all know that's not "real" rape. But as Helen Hazen would write in 1983, "I would like to be raped, but I want it to happen to me exactly as it happened to (the heroine) in (a romance novel).” The debate, often heated, continues with the romance-reading and -writing community. And not all the readers of romances or the viewers of soap operas or the fans of "reality" shows are as savvy as those of us here on DU. The vast majority of the population IS influenced by these cultural products. Their mindsets and even their morals are informed by the messages they receive from pop culture.

While all this was going on, in the 1970s and 1980s, laws were changing, to be sure. Rape shield laws went into effect, supposedly preventing a rape victim's sexual past being used to discredit her accusations. Marital rape became a crime. But the culture hadn't changed. The New Bedford gang rape of Cheryl Araujo occurred in 1983. "The Accused," a fictionalized account based on the New Bedford rape, earned Jodie Foster an Oscar in 1988. In 1989, a group of high school atheletes in Glen Ridge, New Jersey, brutally raped a mentally challenged girl with a broomstick, and were defended by locals who accused the girl of being promiscuous.

84% of rapists -- not "potential" rapists but guys who have done the deed -- do not believe what they did was "really" rape. They don't see themselves as rapists, because rapists are deviants. Real rapists are like convicted child molester Richard Hurles, who was probably so brain-damaged by the violent abuse he suffered at the hands of his father that he didn't really have much of a clue what he was doing was wrong. Not long after his release on parole he sexually assaulted and murdered Kay Blanton, librarian of the Buckeye, Arizona, Public Library. Hurles is a "deviant." Ted Bundy was a "deviant." The men and boys in Cleveland, Texas who gang raped an 11-year-old girl in 2010 were not, in the opinion of many residents of the small, poor Texas town, deviants; instead, they blamed the girl, for dressing too provocatively and looking older than she really was. "Our Guys" in Glen Ridge, NJ, were not "deviants."

We all know it's wrong to drink and drive. We know there are laws against drunk driving, driving under the infuence, driving while impaired. Many of us know the severe penalties for being caught; an acquaintance of mine is currently facing about $12,000 in fines, court costs, impound fees, and lawyer's fees because of DUI. He's not an alcoholic, with a physical inability to control his consumption. He just thought that since the bar was only about a mile from his home, he could drive that short a distance without an accident. Well, he didn't have an accident, but he was driving so slow he caught the attention of a patrolling police officer. The point is, however, that popular culture encourages drinking. The various warnings to drink responsibly are not as pleasure-inducing as the commercials with the skimpily clad girls.

Which is precisely why so many anti-rape campaigns have failed in the past. They aren't as sexy -- pardon the really bad pun -- as a rape-as-romance novel or Clark Gable carrying a kicking and screaming Vivien Leigh up the staircase or Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan or whoever the latest pop twit is sprawled undie-less in the paparazzi's camera lens. Women and women's sexuality becomes a joke, and the women become dehumanized.

So the MyStrength project targets young couples, but it doesn't say anything about casual hook-ups or dating before commitment. It doesn't address the pervasive culture that's already in place. There are no PSAs during the NFL play-offs that say "NO means NO." (We will, however, get commercials from Randall Terry about the evils of abortion, and we all know that the anti-abortion is also anti-woman, and it defends the rights of rapists to own and control the bodies of their victims, while denying the rights of the victims to owenrship and control of their bodies.) Just as the passage of civil rights legislation in the 1950s and 1960s hasn't done way with bigotry and prejudice and de facto segregation, anti-rape legislation and projects have not addressed the culture. It's still securely in place, and vociferously defended by those who have a vested interest in it.

Men who pressure their wives or girlfriends into having sex don't think they're doing anything wrong. She doesn't feel good, she has a head ache, the kids wore her out, her job sucks, so what? All he wants is a little lovin' and she's his wife so he nags and touches and she shoves his hand away and he puts it right back and he's insistent and after all she's his wife and. . . . most men don't consider that rape. Persuasion maybe, or persistence, but not rape.

Not all men, of course. Some read the signals and are respectful enough and don't even try. But others have internalized the popular culture. Like the guy in my AJS 305 class, they figure they're entitled. They're just taking what belongs to them, no big deal. She doesn't have to enjoy it if she doesn't want to, but he spent money on her after all, and what's a woman for if not. . . .

So how do we go about changing the culture? First of all, by admitting that it exists, that it's very powerful, and that it is ABOUT power. Understand that every time there's a commercial or a magazine ad that shows a woman being victimized, it sends a message. Don't be silent when you see it -- start a dialogue. Afraid you'll be laughed at? Is that the worst that can happen? Is it more important that you NOT be laughed at than that you make an effort to change the message being sent to men and women about sexual and bodily integrity?

Start by recognizing that ANYONE can be a rapist. Just because he's gay or he's got a good job or he comes from nice people and went to a good school -- none of those qualities prevents him from also being a guy who thinks he's entitled to sex on demand and is capable of coercing or pressuring his partner into delivering.

Start by stopping with blaming the victim. Regardless what she wore or how much she drank or who she was with or what she did before with him or with other guys, the guy chose to assault her against her wishes or without her consent.

Start by stopping with equating rape to deviant behavior. Understand that non-consensual sex is culturally, if not overtly, condoned and encouraged. Learn to look for and be aware of examples of this.

Start by examining your own behavior. Even if you insist you never have and never would commit rape, do you do other things that support a rape culture? Do you laugh at lokes that demean women? Do you evaluate women foremost on their physical attributes? Do you summarily dismiss women's assessments of their situations because your experience is different?

That's what it's going to take: teaching, and learning, cultural awareness, so that the messages are no longer effective. I never said it would be easy or quick, any more than overcoming racism was accomplished with the Brown decision.

Susan Brownmiller wrote "Against Our Will" in 1975; Susan Faludi's "Backlash" came out in 1991. The greater backlash continues two more decades on. This is a battle that has been going on for a long time. We shouldn't have to be still fighting it, but the problem still exists, and the fight must continue. That it has to continue here, in a forum where we're all supposed to be enlightened and reasonably progressive, is particularly discouraging. But it's better to continue fighting than to give in.


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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 12:32 AM

187. i read it. what a post. nt

 

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 12:54 AM

188. That is the best post I've ever seen on DU.

This part, especially: "But it's better to continue fighting than to give in."

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:01 PM

197. This post deserves to be an OP

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Response to varelse (Reply #197)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:24 PM

210. +1

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:19 PM

209. THANK YOU! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #159)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:22 PM

199. rape most certainly is deviant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_deviancy#Classificational

Before the introduction of the term paraphilia in the DSM-III (1980), the term sexual deviation was used to refer to paraphilias in the first two editions of the manual.[10] American Journal of Psychiatry[11] describes paraphilia as "recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving:

1.Non-human objects
2.The suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner
3.Children
4.Non-consenting persons[12

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #199)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:28 PM

200. in their mind, they are not interpreting it as rape. i dont know why people dont get this.

 

it is why i cringe when i hear someone say, have a gun, shoot them. it is obviously a person that does not get date rape. i dont know how to spell it out. seems like people have tried in this thread. in this society, from day one with our boys, we create their sexuality as priority. all powerful. as they grow up, they learn how they are suppose to manipulate, convince the girl to have sex. they take it too far. the jokes they make confirm this behavior. it is not the deviant. it is the boy next door.

she says no, convince her yes. she needs help convincing, liquor her up. girls are suppose to struggle a bet. they spent lots of money on her, she owes them. all their lives with movies, music adnd games, they are taught girls are their to service them.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #200)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:04 PM

204. Check out the seduction community..

specifically the thing they like to all "last minute resistance".

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Response to redqueen (Reply #204)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:07 PM

206. i do not know what you are talking. i saw a bit on a thread. seduction has never worked for me.

 

a total imbalance of power. even young and unaware i could not stomach the implications in seduction. on either side of the gender.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #206)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:14 PM

207. It means if a woman starts resisting your advances for sex

by saying that it's late, or she has to be up early, or that she just doesn't want to have sex... well that's just her not wanting to be thought of as a slut, don'tcha know... so you can just disregard that... just slow down a little, but keep 'escalating' to get the sex you are of course entitled to.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #207)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:26 PM

211. ya. that. eeew. it was in all the movies. it always made me uncomfortable. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #200)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:46 PM

216. im sure all sorts of deviants, not only rapists,

consider their actions normal. i don't believe it is the deviant person's opinion of their own behavior that is used by psychiatrists to determine deviancy. rape most certainly is deviancy - regardless of what the rapist thinks. they may think they deserve the key to the city, so what?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #216)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 10:03 PM

218. "Rape" as in "real rape" is "deviant."

We get that. We understand that. And yes, there are "real rapists" who don't think they did anything wrong.

We're not talking about that. We're not talking about guys who think the woman's screams and struggles are part of her passion. We're not talking about guys who get off on physically overpowering a woman who has said no repeatedly, has tried to get away from him, and continues to fight. We're not talking about guys who go after every woman they see and think all women are hot to go to bed with them. We're not talking about guys who think 10 year old girls are begging to be gang raped.

We're talking about guys who behave in a manner that is constantly depicted in the media, in the commercials, on "reality" tv, in movies and books and magazines. What we're saying is that this depiction of sex, of women, of relationships is WRONG and that the behavior and attitudes are LEARNED from that culture. We're not talking about mental illness; we talking about a sick culture.

It feels very much as if some people on this thread have come up with a nifty word that they are now trying to fit to a concept it was never intended to fit.


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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #218)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 03:17 PM

222. one is either a rapist or not rapist. and if one is a rapist one is deviant - regardless of

whatever attempts they (or their attorneys) might try to blame socety.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #222)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:40 PM

231. The problem with this kind of thinking

Is that it makes any and all programs aimed at prevention impossible by definition.

Stating that only "deviants" rape means that unless we identify the "deviants" before they rape, we can only punish them afterwards, but not prevent them from doing their deviance on someone else.

Of course, if they haven't yet worked their deviant ways, we can't punish them or even make examples of them, unless we make it a crime to be deviant without doing anything.

And how would you identify deviants before they act? Where is the test that determines "This person WILL commit a deviant act and therefore must be incarcerated to prevent this happening." Where is the test that tells the future? When did our justice system begin to convict and incarcerate people pre-emptively?

I'm not trying to change arely staircase's thinking, because I don't think that's possible. He/she/it has come to this conclusion without providing very much evidence other than an aristotelian "A is A" rather like Ayn Rand and is being very stubborn about it. I can't help that. But I can continue to put my version out there for the benefit of others.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #231)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:52 PM

233. uh, you are the one asserting that there is a third category (outside of rapist or not rapist),

i think

and frankly you are all over the place with your argument. maybe i am misunderstanding, but ould you state your thesis in a couple of sentences?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #233)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:59 PM

238. I think you've completely misunderstood

And perhaps intentionally.

If you really want to learn about this issue, rather than just make blanket statements, you've already been given enough resources. Start reading. Take a class.




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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #238)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 11:06 PM

240. as i suspected nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #240)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:16 AM

242. Actually, if you put everything I've posted together...

You'd have a decent beginning.

I have not been inconsistent.

I have not said there are rapists and non-rapists and some third category that's neither, although how there can logically be something that is neither a rapist nor a non-rapist is beyond me. You have repeatedly stated that rapists are deviants. You have brooked no opposition to that statement. No matter what I write, you disagree with it.

I have given you a variety of references; if you like, I can insert the entire bibliography from my research papers on the subject, although that list is now slightly out of date because much more has been written since my last academic paper in about 2002.

So here is my "thesis".

1. Rape is "deviant" behavior, but all that means is that it deviates from a norm. Not "the" norm, but "a" norm, meaning that the norm changes, is mutable, is (gasp!) relative. As I have said before, marital rape used to be an oxymoron; legally, there was no such thing. Now there is. Until a couple of weeks ago, the FBI didn't recognize date rape as rape. Now they do. The norms change.

2. Some people who engage in "deviant" behavior are (pretty much) incapable of altering their behavior and/or/because they are (pretty much) incapable of understanding that what they're doing is wrong. These people's deviant actions are less informed by outside influences than by internal motivations. These are both the psycho/sociopaths like Ted Bundy and the brain-damaged like Richard Hurles. Their behavior does not conform to any socially acceptable norm. They often cannot be identified until after they have engaged in their "deviant" behavior.

3. Other people who engage in "deviant" behavior are much more strongly influenced by outside, cultural forces and less by internals. Their patterns of behavior are learned, either directly or indirectly, from the culture around them. These people are capable of altering their behavior (if they want to) and are capable of understanding (if they want to) that what they're doing or have done is wrong.

4. It is one thing to label rape as deviant behavior, but it is another thing entirely to label all persons who commit (or attempt to commit) rape as deviant persons. Even in the narrow terms of rape prevention, to label the rapist as deviant -- rather than just the act -- makes prevention impossible. It removes any responsibility from the society at large for change. It is, in effect, a very right wing authoritarian point of view. This is a viewpoint usually espoused by those who benefit the most from the status quo.


TG

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #242)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:30 AM

243. seriously, can't you whittle this down to a succinct statement? like, two to three

sentences?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #243)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 07:30 AM

244. No. I'm not you. Thank the goddess. n/t

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #244)

Mon Jan 23, 2012, 11:37 PM

245. better luck next time. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #199)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 09:11 PM

217. I'm not a psychologist, but. . . .

Again, I'm not referring to people who have "recurrent, intense. . . behaviors," but rather people who believe what they do is all right because they see it going on around them all the time. These are not people divorced from reality, living in world only they inhabit.

Furthermore, most of them can be EDUCATED to behave differently. They don't need psychotropic drugs to control them, or extensive psychotherapy. They were originally "educated" by the culture they live in, and it may be difficult to overcome the effects of that "education," especially when there's little to no change in the culture.

I'm referring to a set of behaviors and beliefs that are "learned," in much the same way racism is "learned" through the culture.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #217)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 10:25 PM

219. this is the problem and the refusal to allow this concept to be realized. for whatever reason, this

 

posters refusal to allow his brain to grasp what is being said. why the reluctance? even beyond the mere reluctance. if men are so unwilling to allow themselves to see where the real issue in a rape culture is coming from, how do we expect to be able to educate our sons not to repeat the very same things and our daughters not to experience the rapes.

a father says, how.what do i explain to my daughter going off to college. the first step would be to get this, understand this. and work to change the mentality

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #219)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 10:55 PM

220. I think in some cases -- maybe here, maybe not -- it's fear

Most guys aren't "rapists" and never will be. They don't lurk in parking garages and around bus stops waiting for vulnerable women. And it's probably very comforting for most guys to believe "rapists" are "deviants", and since those guys aren't "deviants," they don't have to worry about ever being seen as a rapist.

It's scary, I think, for some guys to accept the fact that guys just like them -- guys who aren't "deviants" in the classic scary monster mode -- are out there perpetrating rapes. Then it becomes a "there but for the grace of whatever" concept, and guys, being human, get defensive.

They shouldn't be. No one that I know of is accusing them individually of doing anything wrong. Certainly I'm not.

But what the Ebony article posits is that it's not enough just to tell women how to minimize their risks, especially what that strategy doesn't cover a lot of the situations women find themselves in. It's not JUST about going to bars or frat parties and drinking yourself to oblivion. It's ALSO about focusing on the guys, the non-deviant guys who are behaving badly.

The fact that so little focus has been on the guys over the past, say, 40 years ought to be a good indication of how non-deviant their behavior is. It really doesn't deviate all that much from what's considered normal and acceptable, at least according to the images of women in the media. How on earth, we wonder, could the families of the rapists in Cleveland, Texas even begin to defend gang-raping an 11-year-old? It's because they don't see their fathers and brothers and cousins as "rapists," and if they don't seem them as "rapists," then what they did can't be rape and therefore there has to be another explanation, like it was her fault. I know that's kind of bizarre logic, but that's the way people's minds work.

Look at it this way: At the other end of the socio-economic spectrum from Cleveland, Texas, Roman Polanski is still defended. He's a great director, he's created magnificent works of film art. "Deviant" people don't create great art, therefore Roman Polanski cannot be "deviant." Since only "deviant" people commit real "rape," Roman Polanski must be innocent and there's another explanation for what he did.

I think that's why the whole issue with "all men are potential rapists" hit a nerve. No one wants to think of himself as "deviant," and since only "deviants" commit "rape," normal, non-deviant men can't be rapists.

Unless and until there's an admission made that it's the CULTURE that makes NORMAL men do things that are defined as rape, we're not going to get anywhere.

Once we're able to get beyond that point and can begin discussing the power imbalance that sets the stage for the flowering of a rape culture and subsequently so many rapes, we can start to make progress.

Maybe.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #220)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 09:26 AM

221. i think this should be the conversation, the starting point, in the next thread. nt

 

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:45 PM

152. Excellent post.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:05 AM

82. The problem is that boys and men know it all, too,

 

but a tiny, tiny minority don't care. Do you honestly think a DARE-style program of "don't rape" ads will make any difference whatsoever to that tiny, tiny minority of people who don't give a shit that rape is wrong (aka rapists)?

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #82)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:21 AM

84. I dont think they do.

I've seen men say that they 'just got their signals mixed up'. Those aren't men who know and don't care. Those are men who have been confused by the messages in rape culture.

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #82)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:36 AM

102. It's NOT a tiny tiny minority

Statistics have repeatedly shown that from 1 in 6 to 1 in 4 women have experienced some form of sexual assault in their lives. This includes forcible rape, attempted forcible rape, coercion to perform sexual acts, and so on. And don't forget that many of them are children unable to report anything, unable in many cases even to know what they're experiencing. And believe it or not, there are "perfectly normal" men who can blame a 10 or 12 year old girl for enticing them into rape. Please google Cleveland, Texas.

Allow me to reprise the story of my Women, Crime, and Justice class from spring semester 1999 at Arizona State University - West Campus. Many of the male students were current police and probation officers from the Phoenix metro area. One, a beefy assertive blond of about 35, always sat in the middle of the classroom and virtually always challenged everything Prof. Marie Griffin said about women. The women in the class, myself included, felt this guy's misogyny a mile away.

As we were discussing rape and how the definition had changed over the years and how prosecution of rape charges had changed, this guy insisted, in no uncertain terms, that he had a RIGHT to sex with a woman he had spent money on.

"You mean if I spend a couple hundred bucks on her, take her to dinner and a show and so on, I can't expect something in return? That's not fair."

There was an audible gasp from the class.

Remember, this guy was a law enforcement officer in some capacity. How sympathetic do you think he was going to be if confronted with a situation in which a woman was claiming to have been raped by her date? By her husband? By her ex-boyfriend?

Maybe this guy never actually raped anyone, but do you see how his mindset can affect the behavior of others?

What if he HAD been confronted with a "domestic situation" where a woman was raped by her live-in boyfriend and he had told her it was her own fault? What if he HAD walked away and done nothing? What do you think her feelings would have been? What do you think she would have done the next time the boyfriend forced her to have sex? Do you think she'd have called the cops? do you think she would have reported it? What do you think she would have told her friends, her sisters, her daughters, when they asked her what they should do? How willing do you think she would have been to tell them to call the cops and report it? Or would she more likely have said, "Deal with it, honey, 'cause nobody's gonna believe you."

THAT, my friend, is a rape culture. It's not a culture where men are told overtly that it's okay to rape; it's a culture in which they're told overtly not to, but covertly it's wink wink nudge nudge and "Take it, brother, any chance you get and blame her afterward, 'cause you're ENTITLED to it."

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Response to mythology (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:22 PM

45. Again, you're making the assumption

that rape is perpetrated by strangers. Some guy who goes around checking for unlocked doors or lurks around hiking trails.

What we're talking about here is a culture that (not so) subtly says, "Hey, guys, if she's in a bar, she's easy. Ask her if she needs a ride home, and if she does, that's a good as saying she's ready to climb in the back seat in the parking lot."

When people right here on DU say that well, maybe if women don't want to be raped, they shouldn't go in bars, should wear make-up, shouldn't have a social drink, those people are saying women who do these things are consenting ahead of time to sex and have no defense. It's their own fault. If they didn't want to have sex with anyone and everyone, they shouldn't have gone to the bar, because it's not the rapists' fault! It's the woman's! She could have prevented it by not going in the bar!! Duh!"

What the Ebony essay and some of the rest of are saying is, that's wrong. It's NOT the woman's fault. It's the rapist's fault, and what we need to do is a better job of teling men, who are overwhelmingly the rapists of women, that no means no. It means no now, it means no later. No means no.

What part of that don't you get?

Is it so much to expect that men learn to control themselves in bars and at parties? They're able to control themselves on public sidewalks and in grocery stores and offices when they see a woman in a short skirt. So it's not that they physically can't control themselves; it's that they believe they've been given the right to behave differently.

That's an education thing.

A guy I know believed for years and years and years and years that there was no such thing as rape, period. Women consented, all the time. There was no such thing, because his mother (!) had always told him, "A woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down." One day I said to him, "What if there's nowhere for her to run to? What if he has a knife to her throat? What if he threatens her children? Is it rape then?" He didn't like admitting his mother was wrong, but he did.


For those who would like to read about my experience in a classroom academic discussion of rape in which a law enforcment professional defended his own right to have sex with a date, whether she consented or not, please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002100430#top

For the rest of you, here's the text of the flyer I handed out in that class:



“ ‘No’ is a complete sentence.”

“What part of ‘No’ don’t you understand?”

“ ‘No’ means ‘No.’ Period.”

If you have problems with those three lines, you may be a potential date rapist.

Is that a harsh statement? I don’t think so.

When a woman says no, it is up to you to accept her no and stop. At that moment. Unequivocally. If you do not, if you exercise your “right” to pressure her into having sex with you, whether that pressure is verbal, physical, sexual, or any other kind of pressure, you are stating very clearly that her wishes are ignorable. You state that you don’t believe her or that you don’t care if she’s telling the truth. If you persist in your “seduction,” you are saying that your desires are more important than her integrity, her personhood, her wishes, and that you, for whatever reason, have more of a right to have sex with her than she has the right to say no.

You may say that “when she says no, she really means not now,” and that the key to your success is maintaining the pressure until she gives in. That’s force. That’s coercion. That’s rape.

It is also a denial of her integrity as a person. You are saying that her words don’t mean what she says they do. You are also saying that you know her mind better than she does. Would you allow her the same liberties? Would you allow her to persist long after you had lost interest in her?

Many women have been so thoroughly conditioned and socialized by our society to think that they can be held responsible for someone else’s actions that they have lost the ability to say no. They have been taught that saying no doesn’t mean anything. They have been taught that their integrity doesn’t mean anything, because it can be overridden by your desires and you are more important than they are. So they don’t speak, they live in fear, even if it is not a palpable fear. And they allow you, by their frightened silence, to do things to them that they don’t want.

Nothing a woman has done with you in the past, even if she has had sex with you on a regular basis, even if she is your wife, nothing justifies your overriding her simple no. Nothing. You have no more right to continue talking her into something she doesn’t want to do that you have the right to shout “fire!” in a crowded theater. When your “right” infringes upon someone else’s right, you lose that right.

Does this mean you are going to have to give up some of your male privilege, your “right” to seduce and/or rape the women you desire? Yes. That you are going to have to learn that you are not more important than the women you date? Yes. That you have no right to pressure her, to coerce her, to force her? Yes.

“Yes,” in this case, is a complete sentence.

What part of “yes” don’t you understand?

Yes means yes.





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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:08 PM

55. That is superb -- brilliant too.

 

I'm definitely bookmarking it.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #23)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:56 PM

67. Because "assholes who rape" will stop being assholes if only they knew better?

 

I'm an educator, but I don't have as much faith in education as a lot of the posters here do apparently.

I think rape is a crime, and I think the guys who do it know full well that rape is rape.

Forcing yourself on someone who is too drunk to say no is rape (which is why the ad was warning women not to get too drunk to say no . . . I don't have a big problem with that). Forcing yourself on someone who is too shocked to say no is rape. The key words are "forcing yourself on" . . . healthy sexuality has no element of coercion in it.

I believed feminists when they said that rape is a crime of violence not a crime of sex. It should therefore be as futile to try to educate away rape as trying to educate away murder or armed robbery.

But a massive "rape education policy" would provide a great pretext for rad fems to ram their message of women's victimhood down the throats of all the men who already aren't rapists and never will be.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:08 AM

91. you are more concerned about the rad fems than girls/women being raped. and a boys/mans life ruined

 

cause ofthe conditioning of our society.

bad rad fems.

there is a battle going on and cant let those rad fems have an upper hand

an amazing reason to deny and bury head in the sand

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:38 AM

103. exactly




Tansy Gold, who has never apologized for being a radical feminist because she knows what "radical" really means and what it doesn't mean

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:45 AM

105. i have a couple sons. i have a couple of nieces. you can damn well bet have discussed ownership

 

and privilege with sons. drinking while on a date and the effects, to both sons and nieces. personal responsibility. and males having ownership of females sexuality.

i dont want my boys to EVER find themselves in a position of he said/she said. damn straight as a parent they are going to be educated.

as a parent we educate and prepare kids in so many areas. the parent that ignores or facilitate this attitude is doing their child wrong.

and we really have to get beyond the big bad monster mentality.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:53 PM

15. K&R

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:57 PM

17. My sister has 4 daughters - all of them small in stature

She already raised 2 sons, and is raising 2 more. Lots of kids.

Anyway, because my sister is aware that there's no way to control perverts and sickos, she now has them in karate classes. That's no guarantee that sickos and perverts will not endanger them, but there are no 100% guarantees of anything in life.

She also tells them not to call too much attention to themselves, and dress appropriately, as if not seeking attention.

I am also reminded of a class we had at a workplace at which there had been an attack in the parking lot. Among the suggestions: Do not leave the workplace alone, try not to leave too late, carry the keys in your hand (as a weapon and to have it ready when you arrive at the car), always be aware of your surroundings, make sure to check the back seats of the car upon entering it, do not respond to requests for help from someone in the parking lot (run back to the building and seek help), and more.

I do agree there's a desperate need to teach boys from early on that women should be respected. Of course, it's a losing battle every day with the lack of respect shown on videos, videogames, movies, songs, etc.



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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:10 PM

56. And all those various things, those "safety measures" prove

 

just how UNequal women are in this country, just what 2nd class citizens we are. In reality, we live as an occupied people in our own nation. Sick.

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:18 PM

58. I know. It's a bit of a war zone for us. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:57 PM

18. I plan on doing both with my children.

I plan on telling my sons about what is and isn't appropriate, and I will tell my daughter about "wing men," drinking at parties, date rape, etc.

To a small extent, I already do this, but they're currently too young for any hardcore details.

That said, without a doubt, addressing the rapist's side of the issue definitely needs to happen more often. When only the women are addressed, the blame seems to fall upon them instead of the rapists.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:16 PM

235. +1000

 

Yes, thank you.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:13 PM

19. rec x eleventy billion

Men have been conditioned for generations that "no" is the opening of negotiations, not the end of them.

And women: say "yes" when you mean "yes." As the article stated, sexual assertiveness does not create the conditions for rape. Quite the opposite. I have found that it's a rare breed of man (read: my kind) who responds positively to sexual assertiveness in a woman. Often sexual assertiveness from a woman confuses and disarms a man conditioned to being the "aggressor."

Edit for end-of-day bad spelling.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:16 PM

20. People don't understand how painful their words can be.

When they say " She shouldn't have been [insert place]", "She shouldn't have been alone", "She shouldn't have invited him in", She shouldn't have been wearing that", "she shouldn't have kissed him" etc etc....

All the woman hear is " IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT YOU GOT RAPED"

It's that simple.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:28 PM

21. I've never been in a bar-fight.

 

Because I never drink in bars.

The idea that some common sense steps can't reduce a woman's chance of rape, and it's all the fault of rapist-men (meaning potentially all men) who need to be educated, shows me that the folks pushing this issue are more interested in political statements than in actually preventing rape.

On edit--the men who rape women don't need to be educated, they need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. And education isn't going to prevent rapists from raping, anymore than educating serial-killers is going to stop that kind of violence.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:43 PM

24. Please read the essay

It's not about just men who rape with violence or threat of violence -- it's about men who insist on sex even when their partner doesn't want to, or when she isn't capable of giving informed consent. It's about guys who think because they've had sex with her before, they're entitled to have sex with her NOW.

It is the fault of the rapist. Are you suggesting that the sight of a woman in a short skirt or tight pants or a low-cut blouse or alone in a bar renders a man incapable of rational thought and/or control of his penis? If that were the case, then all men would in fact be rapists, and they'd be raping every woman in a short skirt or tight pants every place they see one.

What too many men have been taught -- directly and indirectly -- is that IT'S OKAY to have sex with a woman you pick up in a bar even if she doesn't want to, because if she didn't want to be raped, she wouldn't be in the bar. Therefore, all women in bars have already consented to sex. The only women who don't want sex are the ones not in the bars.

And that's pretty much what you're saying too -- "common sense" steps means women are responsible for their own rape, they need not to dress provocatively or go in bars. I suppose you probably think married women are never raped by their husbands?




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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:48 PM

25. Thank you.

I can't reply to that any better than you did.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:37 PM

65. Looks to me like you're both telling me what I think and attacking me for it at the same time.

 

That's what you're saying too -- "common sense" steps means women are responsible for their own rape, they need not to dress provocatively or go in bars. I suppose you probably think married women are never raped by their husbands?

Golly, since you already know what I think, why don't you just respond the way I'd respond and then tell me why it's wrong?

If I go to the toughest part of town at two a.m. with a couple of fifties sticking out of my pocket, dead drunk, alone, staggering down the sidewalk, am I more or less likely to get beaten and robbed than if I don't?

Am I responsible for getting beaten and robbed? No, indeed.

Could I have taken common-sense steps to make it less likely that I'd get beaten and robbed? Yes, I could have.

Oddly, using this same approach with women and rape means that you're blaming women for getting raped. It's as if when you tell someone to drive carefully on ice, any accident they have while driving on ice is their own fault.

It's not consistent.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:11 AM

79. No, I most certainly did not tell you what you think.

I asked.

Going into the toughest part of town at two a.m. with a couple of fifties sticking out of your pockets is probably not a sensible thing to do. Drinking to excess under any circumstances is probably not a sensible thing to do.

What makes the two scenarios different is that even though the person walking through the bad neighborhood at 2 a.m. may get mugged, the mugger will not be exonerated by the victim's foolishness.

In the case of rape, however, the blame that is heaped on the victim often DOES exonerate the perpetrator, if not directly then indirectly because either she is made to feel sufficiently responsible for what happened to her that she does not report it or press charges or because she is shown in court -- or in the court of public opinion, if it reaches that far -- to have contributed to her own assault. The more often victims are portrayed as contributing to their assaults, even when they did nothing more heinous than exercise poor judgment (which is NOT a crime, by the way), the more often other victims are reluctant to speak up for fear of the same treatment. This then becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy -- as one guy gets away with it, more and more guys figure they can get away with it, too.

And remember, I'm not talking about "deviants," but about the very ordinary guy who just thinks he's entitled.


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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:43 AM

86. You seem to be assuming that women don't do anything to prevent rape

You might be very shocked and surprised to know that most women actually go to great pains to prevent being victimized. All of your suggestions about what they should do is something the great majority of women already do.

A woman in a bar is not the same as a drunken man in a bad part of town eliciting violence with money hanging out of his pocket. A woman on a date is not the same thing either.

I also don't know any women who go to bars alone. I know some women do, but I don't know any of them.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:41 AM

104. Excellent response. n/t

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Response to lunatica (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:22 AM

117. "I also don't know any women who go to bars alone."

 

Now THAT is freedom isn't it? Men have no idea how free they really are. Do men ever worry about going ANYWHERE alone? (not really)

Imagine a world where a woman could go anywhere anytime without the worry of forced PIV. Now THAT is freedom.

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #117)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:59 AM

124. i lived in reno, a 24 hour town, late shift. i went into bars alone. i had no problem, nor felt

 

i should apologize. i was out and about alone, late, a lot in the town.

i had older wmen tell me i should not. i took precautions. but i was not about to do less, cause i was a woman.

i hear what you are saying. i am surprised that going to a bar alone means something. never entered my mind. i thought i was allowed, when i want A glass of wine. go figure.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #124)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:34 PM

166. I too lived in Reno for a few years;

 

Married and male. I did notice many 'unescorted' women going in and out of bars/casinos.

I also knew a few women who worked at the Mustang Ranch.

They told me that prostitution in Washoe County, Reno's county, was not a huge item. You could tell the pros because they would look pretty bored and usually sat at the $1 blackjack tables or at the quarter slots, not playing but eyeballing the potential customers.

Granted this business is everywhere but I am NOT saying that unescorted women, anywhere, constitutes a professional nor am I condoning any improper behavior of men who can't understand no.

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #166)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:44 PM

167. i would be served the booze. a lot. for free. lol lol.

 

they LOVED me at the table. and see....

never even thought of an image of a hooker because i wanted to play 21. thought i was just an adult person playing, like .... men.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:27 PM

236. Not all men are rapists -- BUT

 

in a culture like ours which allows so much rape to go unpunished, and which is so eager to tell WOMEN how to behave to avoid being a victim,

WOMEN must regard all men as (edited to add the word potential) rapists -- all men without exception.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:30 PM

22. Good idea

Like bullying, rather than going on about standing up to the bully to make him your friend - go after the bully, that is the person in the wrong.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:54 PM

26. BRAVO Ebony Magazine.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:58 PM

27. Jackson Katz has been trying to change this paradigm for some time, too.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

Another reason why Katz has a problem with people using women's issues to describe violence against women is the issue of perpetration and who is responsible for perpetrating these acts. "Take rape for example," said Katz. "Over 99 percent of rape is perpetrated by men, but it's a women's issue?"

Kats said one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."



It's a wonderful read.

Thanks for posting this!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:15 PM

30. Oh yes, I love his work...

thanks for the link!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:21 PM

32. Here's another I literally just found that I think you'll enjoy:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/

Really good content - I can't stop reading it.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:06 PM

69. Evidence-free conclusion . . .

 

Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem.

As a man, I don't remember the meeting in which I "drafted policies that perpetuate rape against women."

I must have missed that one.

I did see however that the number of sex crimes, like other crime, has gone down in the last decade.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:13 AM

80. It's called male privilege

And you don't have to write the policy to benefit from it.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:25 AM

99. get a girl drunk on a date, men pay for it one way or another, no doesnt mean no.... the simple

 

language and jokes of our society is constantly feeding our boys/men. every male show has a woman that services, computer game. women are continually presented as a thing to service men. mens sexuality is the be all end of of... well, everything.

all this feeds on regular everyday kids and if there is not an influence to counter it, of course it is going to have an effect on our youth.

watching a father in walmart going thru posters with 11, 12 yr old son. get to a sexy 4, 5 girls in bikini and the look, snirker, and father acknowledges and endorses the behavior at a very young age.

good parenting.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 11:21 PM

241. This bears repeating: "prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction,"

 

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

And that's because women working in the field have learned that "all rapists are serial rapists."

I came back to the thread to find this very post.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:55 PM

37. k/r

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:01 PM

38. I'd like to clear something up.

No one is saying "everybody, from this day forward, has to stop telling women to take any precautions or look out for their own well being and safety". We all care about the women in our life, and we will go on showing that care by providing such basic, common sense, and more than anything else VERY WELL KNOWN AND OFTEN REPEATED advice.

If you read the ****** OP, it says (quite clearly, I will add) no more "ad campaigns and public service announcements targeted at women to teach them how to avoid rape".

Did that get through?

No more AD CAMPAIGNS. No more PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS.

You know, the things that have never been aimed at boys and men who think that women play hard to get, so 'no' sometimes means 'yes'; or that sex is a 'need' that they just can't do without; or that women who dress a certain way or act a certain way or have a certain type of job can't be raped cause they're sending out signals that they want it, and it's really just the way they're raised (to be 'good' girls) that makes them not want to say yes, so they say no, but really you know they want it. Or whatever the hell other kinds of rationalizations these people use to stay in denial about what they are doing, and who they are.

This is really making me sick that I have to spell this out here.

But ... am I surprised? Not at all.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:28 PM

46. I am incredulous

I need to start avoiding threads about rape or "women's" issues. Some of the responses are so disillusioning.

Sadly, there appears to be a (small) group of folk that are heavily invested in "denying" rape as an issue.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:18 PM

57. Uh, they're into denying ANY

 

"woman's issue" as a problem. And they'll even wander into threads about, oh, say, what forums DU's feminists want and why and weigh in, as if it concerned them in any way or their remarks were somehow useful or relevant in any way. I find it simply astounding.

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #57)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:15 PM

172. I know

I have to be in the right frame of mind to wade into these threads.

what I assume is a "no-brainer" (full support of women's rights and issues) on a liberal site ... turns out to be proof that there is a significant bias against women and their issues.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:35 PM

47. Part of the response may be the caption - which wasn't limited to advertisements.

I have to admit that the caption sent me down a different path than the substance of the post did, to a dance I have been doing personally for 30+ years since I was raped, with rape survivors I encountered as a volunteer at a rape crisis center for a decade, with my daughter as she grew up, and now with some of her friends with whom she is volunteering at a Rape Crisis Center.

Women are never to blame for being raped. Period. End of story.

That said, the sad reality is that rapists (of all sorts - strangers to family members) are very good at picking easy targets. Just like school yard bullies are very good at picking their victims. That is part of the reason some women are raped over and over.

So through all my work with rape, I have tried to walk a careful line between reinforcing the primary truth in bold above, and encouraging women to consider a secondary truth which is that there are things you can do that may make it less likely that you will be picked out by a rapist as an easy target.

That is where the caption took me, before I got around to reading the substance of the post, which is directed to a very limited kind of messaging (which I agree needs to be stopped).

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Response to redqueen (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 08:37 PM

50. My daughters do not need ad campaigns, as I can provide them with basic, common sense advice myself.

But what about girls who are not as fortunate as those in my life and your life, those who have no trusted figure close to them to provide them with this basic, common sense advice? Is it not possible that they could benefit from public service campaigns that would provide them with this same advice?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:19 AM

97. college campus's now have a team of jr and sr that goes to these parties to watch out for the

 

really drunk girls.

really

wow.

my niece was telling me. also the girls are talking and watching out for their fellow females. girls they dont know. if they see something, they go to interfer and check things out. a couple weeks ago, niece and friend got a girl home, she was too drunk.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:06 PM

157. This terrifies me.

 

As you know, my daughter will begin college in August.

I've been struggling to decide exactly how I will approach this with her given the high percentage of girls that are raped or have rape attempted on them during college and all of what you and Redqueen have discussed in this thread. I definitely want to warn her about the dangers in college, but what should I tell her to do or not do beyond that. I definitely do not want to suggest she dress or not dress a certain way or that she cannot enjoy herself etc.

She is a highly sought after athlete with a sports scholarship and is a very physically strong girl, but I am not sure how much that matters.

Is it just an awareness that she should have that any guy is a potential rapist, especially someone she might date?

Should I advise carrying pepper spray or a weapon?

How much should I suggest she rely on friends to watch her back? That doesnt seem to work, most girls go to parties with other girls.

Does it even make sense to advise drinking in moderation? My parents advised me of that and I promptly ignored them. She doesnt seem to be much of a drinker anyway.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #157)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:09 PM

161. All of the above. n/t

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #157)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:34 PM

164. so much is about her own empowerment and confidence and that is gained in time.

 

all in the raising of. but that is the same with our boys. i am as much on the boys side as they are being conditioned and taught by society. the society that teaches girls are a fuck, male sexuality is all powerful, hits both genders.

then we grow up. we hope. older women are not the same easy prey as our younger girls. and she really needs to see it as that, cause that is how some boys are going to see her.

that is the age they are just walking into this and have the least confidence. and these young women are preyed on. older men are very good at it and know just what they are doing and why they go after the less than confident. even the girls that say they are good with the older man do it for self acceptance. 5 yrs down the road, they will admit that they were being used and happened cause of their naivete.

i have talked to my niece forever. when 12 yrs old sittin amongst a table of boys who bring up hooters and go on and on. it is about intimidating, making the girls feel uncomfortable. have power over the girls. 13 at a restaurant with a friend of hers, and an older woman, a friend of mine. the waiter rubs his crotch on her. all three sat quietly. WTF.... speak up, loud. make yourself heard. never sit there quietly. my friend told me, it was getting late, she didnt want to cause problems walking out to the car in the dark.

i told her and the girls, the very worst lesson to teach these girls, head down, mouth shut. could anyone imagine me keeping my mouth shut.

empowering the girls before they walk out the door is the best.

i told my niece about drinking, and about every bad situation had to do with drinking. i still touch base with her on how that is going. still watching out for others. that it is our job to watch out for each other.

date rape drug. a fun one. just one drink. not drunk. what is happening. must be drunk. but, didnt finish one drink. all kinds of rules with that possibility.

being aware, being confident, being empowered, having her voice are her best weapons, but the truth is in this thread. it is not about the girls. it is about our boys. in a culture that continually teach them in all ways, in all things that a girls job is to service them. that it is all about the male sexuality. let her have the gift that if she wants sex, it is as much her right as the guys. that it is hers to speak up for, not present to the guy as if it is a gift. it is no more her giving it to him, as it is him giving it to her. let her be empowered in her sexuality.

on edit... not one thing about dress.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #157)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:36 PM

229. As part of every graduation gift for young women, I give them Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear"

 

It's a book for anyone really - about trusting your instincts and learning clues to stay safe.

I highly recommend it.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:04 PM

39. I entirely agree with the concept, but seriously lack the faith in testosterone laden persons to

 

in any way control themselves. Sure some individuals may do fine, but as a whole, men push and push toward sex as fast and furious as they can.

So for now, I will continue to suggest to my daughter that she be vigilant in the way she dates, the way she goes bar-hopping, and so on.

Curiously I notice that we don't hear this kind of thing when it comes to other crimes and the suggestions about how to avoid them. We don't consider locking our doors and cars and theft device suggestions as blaming the robbed victim, for example. Or suggestions of putting hidden cameras to watch babysitters and other domiciles as blaming the victims of child abuse or property damage/theft. Or suggestions to second opinions and personal research as blaming the victims of medical malpractice or malfeasance.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:59 AM

138. You do realize how offensive that is, right?

To insinuate that men are unable to control themselves?

You're not just unfairly maligning the majority of men who do not act like animals, you're also sending a message to men that they aren't responsible for their actions.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #138)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:21 PM

143. agreed. nt

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:42 PM

48. "anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys" vs

"campaigns and public service announcements targeted at women to teach them how to avoid rape" = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

the fact of the matter is teaching women and girls risk reduction strategies and teaching men/boys impulse control, self-respect/respect for others and that no means no are not mutually exclusive. in fact they are mutually desireable.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 08:30 PM

49. Fully agree. While boys need to be taught that "no means no"

and that a very drunk woman cannot truly give consent, some of these boys will ignore these lessons and grow up to be rapists anyhow. Teaching women to take sensible precautions is in no way "blaming the victim".

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 01:49 AM

192. they are both very important things to teach - nevermind public service announcements

its also a matter of parenting. sons should be taught not to take advantage of a passed woman or someone who can't or won't otherwise consent to having sex and daughters should be taught how to make themselves less likely to be victimized - doesn't mean its their fault if something happens, it just means there are things we can all do to minimize all sorts of risks in life.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:06 AM

77. This. n/t

 

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:04 AM

127. Why is this so hard to understand?

You can bet your ass if PSAs STRICTLY focused on what men can do to prevent rape, there would be (well deserved) outrage that nothing was being done to educate women on risk reduction strategies.

It's so incredibly foolish to think that only through education can rape be dramatically reduced, as if the majority of rapists are just so confused as to what rape actually is and once they've been educated, they'll all become fine, upstanding citizens and never commit violent acts again.

The sad fact of the matter is that there will most likely ALWAYS be sociopaths out there who will take advantage of people in hideous ways. Informing people of ways to lessen the likelihood of becoming a victim of one of those sociopaths is NOT victim blaming, it's just the sensible thing to do.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #127)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 12:17 AM

186. very good points. i do believe education (of boys and men) can prevent rapes

particularly in regards to passed out drunk coeds as well as standing up to other boys/men to protect a girl/woman at risk. i think teaching boys boundries will help, but i am in total agreement that the stranger/predator type rapist isn't going to be anything but a rapist regardless of what seminars he might attend.

And none of that exludes me from telling my daughter to park in well lit areas and walk in groups when possible on campus at night and a having a general situational awareness - its simply risk reduction - and basic common sense. it would not mean my daughter would be to blame if god forbid something should happen to her - even if she weren't following my advice.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 08:40 PM

51. K&R!

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:02 PM

53. I suspect this has been asked before but...

 

...why so many sex/rape threads?

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Response to randome (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 06:23 AM

81. Because I find them worthy of discussion.

There aren't really 'so many', are there?

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Response to randome (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:43 AM

112. It's a huge social problem

Probably one of our worst.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:22 PM

60. Exactly, it's men that need to be told to not rape.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:38 PM

75. Great idea. Tell bankers not to foreclose on people's houses while you're at it. nt

 

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:10 AM

83. Correction: it's rapists that need to be told to not rape.

 

The notion that all men are potential rapists is just truly insulting, and baffling to those of us who are not rapists.

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:48 AM

106. Once again, like it or not, ALL MEN are potential rapists

Ask any woman who's ever been on a first date.

Ask any woman who's ever not really wanted to have sex with her husband and given in because he insisted when she was tired, or sick, or just not in the mood.

Ask any woman who's ever been called into the boss's office and told to close the door.

Ask any woman who's ever gone shopping at night and had to walk through a poorly lit parking lot.

Ask any woman who's gone to a fraternity party.

Ask any woman. . . . . . .

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:06 AM

108. Or ask my friend who was raped by her BFs friend.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:20 AM

110. I guess what I dislike is this attitude

on the part of some guys (and women, too) that they're not part of the "potential" crowd. All men, all women, are potential murders. All men, all women, all GLBTIQ people are potential thieves. Everyone is a potential arsonist. Why is it then that the label "potential rapist" is an insult? No, it's a statement of fact.

Most of us are never going to be murderers. The circumstances that would force us to kill are too extreme and too rare for most of us to be pushed to that point. But the circumstances under which a man would carry through sexual activity with a woman who was not consenting or was not able to consent are far more common. And the crime is far more difficult to prosecute, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread and more.

But in all my years on DU, one thing I've always tried to keep in mind is that what I write is seen by people other than those who post in the thread. I always try to write with the lurkers in mind. So if I reach one guy who finally gets it that no means no FOR HIM TOO, or if I reach one woman who finally understands that she has a right to say no WHENEVER SHE FEELS LIKE IT, then I've accomplished what I set out to do.



TG

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #110)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:05 AM

128. Silly Analogy

And no, everyone is NOT a potential arsonist. That's an extension of logic so broad that it's breaking.

The notion that anybody is a potential anything merely because they're sentient beings is ridiculous.

You're thread is a fine notion to introduce. Educating boys to minimize the risk they will engage in anti-social behaviors is a perfectly sound idea.

But, you're turning off allies with the insistence that every guy is a potential rapist. It is, in fact, insulting. It is as insulting as you would find someone telling you what to think about pornography or titalating marketing ploys. You are telling me and other guys here what's in our head, and you don't know the first thing about the vast majority of us.

If a guy here tells you he's not a potential rapist, then he's not. I'm on of them. Or, do i have to get a note from my wife?
GAC

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #128)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:07 AM

130. You're not a rapist, but you are a potential rapist

Therein lies the difference.

I don't care about a note from your wife. I didn't think my husband was a rapist either. I learned differently.



TG

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #130)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:04 PM

140. Tansy, I'm going to be blunt.

Your vagina has all the appeal of a belt sander to me. Believe it or not, I'm "safe". I don't- and won't, ever- see you or any other woman as a sex object to be possessed, used, or treated like a piece of meat, and I know I'm not the only one. It's not because I'm gay, either, even though I am- it's because momma brought me up right.

So fucking cut it out with the broad-side-of-a-barn-sized brush. It's insulting, sexist in the extreme, and makes you (and the three or four other DUers who engage in that particular pastime) look like a shrieking, screeching, vicious pack of man-hating hagravens.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #140)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:18 PM

142. I have merely stated facts

and backed them up.

I have never said I hated men, nor have I said women are all innocent. I have never said all men are rapists, or that all men want to be rapists.

I have merely stated that all men are POTENTIAL rapists, and given that most rapists don't consider what they have done to be rape, I think my statement is pretty accurate.

Most people still think of rape as the dark alley stranger kind of forcible rape, but it's not. At the high end, 25% of rapes are stranger rapes, and very few happen outdoors. Much more often, nonconsensual sex is perpetrated by a husband, boyfriend, exboyfriend, family member, etc. We tend, as a society, not to think of our fathers, brothers, spouses, etc. as rapists, and it's very difficult for a lot of people, men as well as women, to wrap their heads around the concept.

It's not man-hating. It's awareness of the situation. I'm not shrieking, I'm not screaming. I'm using a few capitalized words to make some emphasis, but I'm not yelling.

I've spent a lot of time explaining myself and where my viewpoints and facts come from. I've never said women have no responsibility for their actions. I've never denied that women can be false rape accusers, and I've leveled the "accusation" that all women are potential false accusers.

But when ANY man, whether he's gay, straight, bi, or non, says he couldn't possibly be a rapist, I remain skeptical. Doth he protest too much? I don't know. But I've known enough men who would never consider themselves or be considered by anyone else to be "real" rapists, and who have still engaged in sexual activity that meets the definition of rape.

The incidence of false accusation is actually quite rare, though occasionally it gets huge publicity. And that publicity serves to depress real rape reporting. Far more common is incidence of non-reported real rape, because all too often, neither the rapist nor the victim even knows it's rape.



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #142)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:22 PM

144. Interesting to see the insults thrown around...

" a shrieking, screeching, vicious pack of man-hating hagravens "... really.

For pointing out uncomfortable truths.

I wish i could say I was amazed, or even just mildly surprised.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #144)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:27 PM

147. Well? What the hell do you expect?

Here I am, telling you I'm not, ever, going to rape any woman, both because I'm gay and even more because I was raised correctly, and I'm being told I might. Possibly. Maybe.

That deserves every sort of "fuck you" I can think of.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #147)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:34 PM

148. *sigh*

Logic just goes right out the window, doesn't it?

po·ten·tial (p -t n sh l). adj. 1. Capable of being but not yet in existence; latent: a potential problem. 2. Having possibility, capability, or power

I am capable of jumping off of this building. I am capable of shoving a box of business cards in my mouth. I am capable of jumping over the desk and attacking the next person who walks through the door.

Will I do it? No, probably not. Just as you probably won't rape a MAN. The likelihood of either of us doing these things is infinitesimal. But they are still potential actions that we are both capable of doing.

Does that clear it up?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #148)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:43 PM

150. See below.

Please. I want you to know how you sound.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #147)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:07 PM

160. It doesn't make any difference.

Gay men can rape women. Being gay doesn't get you an automatic pass.

Nor am I going to alter my statement to "All men except the DUer who identifies himself as Occulus are potential rapists." I can't alter it to "All men except gay men are potential rapists," because that's not true either. I can't alter it to "All men except those who are brought up right are potential rapists." There are no exclusions.

Once again, I have not accused anyone of rape. I have not said all men are rapists. I have not said all sex is rape.

But in any kind of campaign to educate both men and women of the risks and dangers they face, I think it's a fair starting point to say that all men are potential rapists and all women are potential false accusers. There may also be gay men who are potential false accusers, and there are women who are potential rapists. Statistically, the numbers are insignificant, which is not the same as saying gay male rape or rape by a female is not real rape. It is, and that issue should always enter the conversation about risk as well.

Throwing around personal insults doesn't accomplish anything except to distract from the issue. If you're not going to rape anyone, then that's good to know, but you can't speak for all the other men out there, gay, straight, bi, whatever. Nor can I speak for every woman.

So let's start from the assumption that ANYONE we encounter has the potential to cause us harm. We can mitigate our risks by being aware of them. If women understand that ANY man they meet has a potential to cause them harm, then the women are better able to deal with an uncomfortable situation that may develop. They will not be in a state of denial, "Oh, this can't be happening to me because he's such a nice guy and his parents are nice people" or some other such excuse, and end up blaming themselves and not reporting what happened.

It's important to understand that no matter how nice he might be, how well he was raised, how much money he has to spend on her, he is still capable of rape. None of those conditions are mutually exclusive.

Once again -- I am not saying all men are rapists. But I am saying that making the assumption that they have the POTENTIAL is one step in the process.

By the same token, if and when men understand that the actions they think are okay and consented to are NOT okay and consented to, then we've made another step in the process. But if men automatically refuse to recognize that they COULD be rapists and their actions COULD be considered rape, then the process can't go forward.




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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #142)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 01:26 AM

246. Rape is about power, not sex

So being gay does not exclude someone from being a potential rapist of either men or women.

I think the key is some people are more likely, but EVERY human being is a potential rapist.

For example, I once had a woman aggressively grab my crotch. I did not ask her to, I did not want her to. So even females, while much less likely, can be rapists too.

But to the original point - men need to be educated, and the legal system needs to be more empowered and aggressive about going after the people who just don't listen.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:30 AM

134. That's just blatantly offensive

 

to any man who is not a rapist, nor a potential rapist. How is your statement any less wrong than my insisting that all women are potential false rape accusers out to destroy men's lives on their mere say-so?

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #134)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:42 AM

135. Lance, if you go back to the sex/women's issue threads of the past several weeks,

you'll find them all laced through, marbled like a juicy roast, with that sort of broad-brush attack against men as a gender. I have never seen open, blatant sexism displayed against women in all my years on DU as I saw displayed against men in general on those threads.

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #134)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:57 AM

137. It's not offensive and it's not wrong -- ALL WOMEN are potential false rape accusers

and all men should keep that in mind when they're contemplating having sex. That's part of the "rape culture" too -- that false accusations can not only ruin a man's life but can make REAL rape accusations more difficult to prosecute. And any woman can do it.

This is why it's so important that MEN be educated too, so they enter into potential sexual relationships with understanding of their risks too, and that they make the decision and have the conversation when they're sober and rational. That's what the MyStrength project is about -- making sure sex is mutually consensual, mutually wanted.

I think it's pointless to argue over the "accusation" of potentiality. There was no question that the guy in my AJS 305 class did not think of himself as a rapist. He was a law enforcement officer for crying out loud. But his attitude of entitlement took him into territory that almost everyone else in the class - men as well as women -- considered over the line.

Again, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, MOST RAPISTS don't consider what they did to be rape.



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #137)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:03 PM

139. Apparently your logic is highly offensive.

I am fully aware that I'm a potential (fill in the blank). It's not offensive to me. It's simple logic.

I really don't understand the defensiveness about this, and I'm glad justiceischeap started a separate thread about it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #139)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:22 PM

145. You mean, the thread that just got locked?

The thread in which you claimed to have never seen all men labeled as rapists (hint: scroll up to what Tansy said near the beginning of this subthread, and to which you indirectly replied)?

THAT thread, redqueen? The one in which you blatantly lied about not seeing all men labeled as rapists?

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Response to Occulus (Reply #145)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:25 PM

146. POTENTIAL. You want to go look that up, or keep waving the strawman around?

It seems like a lot of DUers are having a very hard time comprehending what that word means.

It's pretty sad.

Yeah, that OP had some offensive statements in it. Your comment above labeling people who point out things you don't want to think about as a " a shrieking, screeching, vicious pack of man-hating hagravens." is no better. Hope you're proud.

Oh and extra special thanks for accusing me of lying, despite the actual problem being that you have issues with reading comprehension.

Nice form, very nice.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #146)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:42 PM

149. Distinction without a difference.

And you did, in fact, lie. Openly. Proudly. Publicly.

By the way, THIS is a Hagraven:



And that's exactly how you and your little band come across when you make your predictable and tiresome attacks on an entire gender.

By the way: saying "all women are potential false rape accusers" is just as bad, and Tansy should be ashamed of herself.

The two of you really like all-inclusive gender labels, don't you?

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Response to Occulus (Reply #149)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:44 PM

151. We're done.

I would bother telling you how you and your huge band come across, but you already know, and you don't care.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #151)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:53 PM

154. There you go again

"I would bother telling you how you and your huge band come across"

I have repeatedly stated, clearly, that I and many other men do not see women as objects, sexual or otherwise; that I and many other men are not rapists or even potential rapists; that I and many other men do not treat women, in general, the way you have here on DU publicly (and with malice) treated men as a gender, and yet you continue to believe we're just slavering, slathering cock-and-balls with legs.

My point, throughout, has been that you, and seabeyond, and Sarah How-the-fuck-do-you-spell-it, and one or two others adamantly refuse to accept that not all men are like that, and you are not only ignoring those statements, but are in fact saying that no, we really are and we just don't know it.

So, yes. Pack of man-hating Hagravens, all three or four of you. That's how you come across, that's how you have always come across, and that's how you always will come across, every time you broad-brush an entire gender.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #154)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:00 PM

156. I would say it's hard to believe that you actually truly do think...

that anyone here (outside of one poster above, whom I called out, thank you) thinks of men as "slavering, slathering cock-and-balls with legs"... or that we think that all men are like that.

But I do find it easy to believe because you keep insistently demonstrating your serious problems with logic and reading comprehension.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #156)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:12 PM

158. Saying "all men are potential rapists" does the trick rather nicely.

Especially when applied to we men who aren't.

"All men are rapists" and "all men are potential rapists" represents a distinction without a difference. That isn't poor reading comprehension on my part- it's semantic games on YOURS.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #149)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:50 PM

153. No, it's just as logical. And thanks for the nasty picture, too...

it's nice to be proven right about how important the way a woman looks is considered by society.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #153)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:00 PM

155. That picture has fuck-all to do with the way a woman looks

and everything to do with the attitude you and your little band project onto men.

And yes... it is nasty.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #155)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:20 PM

162. Let's see.

you posted a picture but say it has nothing to do with what women look like. Then why post it? Especially since it's not of something real?






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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #106)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 01:00 AM

189. no they aren't, that is a hateful thing to say.

to say that every man on this board, every brother, uncle, son, father, nephew in the world is a potential rapist is realy outrageous. do you truly view every man you encounter in this world a potential rapist? really? i'm sorry if something has caused you to feel that way, but with all due respect, that does not seem to be the healthiest outlook on life - to believe that roughly half the people you interact with might just sexually assault you.

and i think your "tired" sex example is a little out of place - that one works both ways, women can pester a tired, sleepy, have-to-work-early-in-the-morning partner just as well as a man can.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #189)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 01:44 AM

191. I never said women can't or don't coerce or pester partners into sex

But I stand by my statement: All men are potential rapists. And I say it without rancor or hatred. I don't convict people of crimes they could potentially commit, and I don't hate all men because they have the potential to rape. (Actually, I only really hate one man and it has nothing whatsoever to do with rape, or even sex.) This also doesn't mean I think every man is GOING to rape or wants to or is trying to find a way to. I don't think that at all.

I consider my outlook to be very healthy. Just as I try my best to avoid going into bars alone because it might not be safe, and I don't drink to excess, I never let my guard down around men. I don't have to be rude or hateful or aloof. But I also remain alert for what I consider warning signals. It's kind of like defensive driving.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #189)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 09:48 AM

193. Just to clarify -- You do understand the difference between "potential" and "future," don't you?

I'm not saying every man is GOING TO BE a rapist. I've never said that, never implied it.

I said every man has the potential to be one, and that it's not the external trappings of "civilization" that mark any individual man in such a way as to exclude him from that potential. I believe it's wrong for women to think that because a guy is educated, doesn't chew his food with his mouth open, drives a nice car, belongs to a country club, or visits his aged mother twice a week that he's somehow exempt. They all have the potential, and in a culture that is as saturated with male privilege and objectification of the female, women should be aware of that.



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #193)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 06:52 PM

196. i think you are being a bit more clear, i think

if you are saying that a man's social position/status, nice personality, etc. do not make him less likely to be a rapist - that a rapist can be any man in that sense, i agree. i thought you were saying that within every individual man lies a potential rapist - and if that is waht you are saying, i disagree strongly. but if the first point is what you are making, i'm with you. and that would be not only with rapists, but ones who murder their victims as well - Ted Bundy comes to mind - came across as a really nice, polite, smart young man. he was active in the Republican Party I believe.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #106)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:47 PM

232. All WOMEN can potentially falsely accuse men of rape.

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Response to cottonseed (Reply #232)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:02 PM

239. Yeah, I know. I said that.

Which you'd know if you'd read my posts.

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Response to Lance_Boyle (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:55 AM

121. Correction:

 

In a survey of male college students:
35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it
One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape
84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape
43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse
15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape, and of these 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.


http://www.dps.siu.edu/cp_sexual_assault.htm

Look at the stat of 84% who committed rape do not label it as such?!

Also, over 50% of rapes are not even reported!

This is a rape culture, no denying it because maybe you Lance may not rape.

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #121)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:01 AM

126. this is the newest study and i cannot find others i have seen on this. it matters with study,

 

i have seen 43% - 60%

men that would rape if they could get away with it.

cant find them now. that was only a year ago.

i dont get google

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #126)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:07 AM

129. Yes, I know

 

Stats that tend to make men look bad get magically scrubbed in many cases. I found the study that your numbers coincided with and when you click, it says "file not found".

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:10 AM

131. ahhhhh. really? wow. it was all layed out. a number of different studies

 

with different colleges and a lot of sites to gather it from. last i checked, nada. i figured just my poor google skills. totally amazing. really?

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:17 AM

132. Try using the Wayback Machine or Google Cache...

Or post the link to the 404 and I'll use the Wayback Machine to post the link/article.

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Response to Sera_Bellum (Reply #121)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:06 PM

141. Thanks for posting that link.

I don't know how anyone can see studies like this which repeatedly highlight this problem and still convince themselves that only 'scary monster' types are rapists.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #141)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 09:54 AM

194. If there is any one person who explodes the "scary monster" myth

It should be Jerry Sandusky.

There's the poster boy for "the trappings of civilization don't exempt anyone." He was well protected by his social/cultural environment for decades. Preying on young boys who haven't the resources to fight back is very similar to preying on women who won't be believed when they cry rape.

80% of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. You'd think that if all those rapists were easily identifiable by their scary monsterness, we'd have weeded them out a long time ago.


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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #194)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:07 PM

205. Yeah, society doesn't want to go down that road yet apparently...

the one that leads them to confront the fact that a lot of non-scary-monster guys have raped women, and they do not in any way consider it to have been rape. They were just being persistent, or seductive, or whatever.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:30 PM

62. k&r

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:45 PM

63. This article baldly states that "it's not effective" - any reason to believe that?


None is provided, and in the absence of one I'm afraid I'm firmly on the other side of this issue.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 10:43 PM

66. Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped?

Maybe it would help if we looked at some of the statistics for who gets raped and who does the raping.

(Keep in mind that the FBI has only this year -- 2012 -- changed its own definition of "rape" as exclusively forcible penetration of a female by a male, so many assaults that would commonly fall under that rubric do not enter into the statistics.)

Most rapes (roughly 80%) occur in someone's home, either the rapist's or the victim's, or a home shared by them; 7.2% at parties, 7.2% in cars, 3.6% outdoors, 2.2% in bars. So if we keep the women out of the bars, that's only going to affect 2.2% of the rapes, and maybe a few of those that are committed in cars after the victim has left the bar.

47% of rapes occur when both parties have been using drugs or alcohol; 17% only the perpetrator, 7% only the victim, and 29% of the cases did not involve drugs or alcohol.

Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement; given the fact that women are STILL blamed for their own rape, is it any wonder many of them are reluctant to accuse? "Oh, she went to a bar, so it's not really rape; she was askin' for it." "Well, look at the clothes she's wearing! She must have wanted it, and I just obliged." "My buddy told me she was an easy lay; if she slept with/ fucked him, why would I think she wouldn't sleep with/fuck me? She's just a whiny whore. She wanted it, I know she did." "She coulda stopped it and she didn't, so it's her fault. I had to rape her. I had no choice. She made me do it!" "She's my wife; you can't rape your own wife. She's supposed to have sex with me whenever I want, none of this I have a headache bullshit. She's my wife; I can fuck her whenever I damn well want!"

It's men who rape. Not all of them, and not all the time. But if that's true, if they can be taught not to rape MOST of the time, then they can be taught not to rape ANY time.

We're not talking about the sociopaths, the psychopaths, the mentally ill who really don't have any control over themselves. We're talking about the "normal" guy who thinks he's entitled to have sex with a woman he just spent $200 on for dinner and a show, and when she decides he's not the kinda guy she wants to go to bed with, he forces her. And in the process, either through the means he uses to force her or in the recriminations after the deed is done, he lets her know that it's her fault. Without witnesses, with the evidence of a few drinks at dinner, he's pretty much told her no one will believe her if she claims she was raped. Yet that's what happened, and he's going to leave her and go back to his "normal" life, to his job and his friends, and he's not going to feel the least bit guilty about what he did because he was entitled to it. Everybody knows that. And anyway, he's not some sicko pervert hanging around dark alleys; he's a normal guy.

Yeah, right.

That's the kind of guy who needs to be educated. Apparently some on this thread think it can't be done, and others think it doesn't need to be. Either way, that's a pretty dismal assessment of men.


TG





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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #66)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:19 PM

72. "Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement"

 

But then how do we know about the other 80 percent? Telepathy?

When the Bush Administration says "we know that the terrorists at Gitmo are terrorists even without a trial," we Libs yell BS because that's what it is. The definition of a crime is that it cannot be a crime until someone is convicted of a crime.

But when it comes to rape, you don't even have to report it for it to be a rape.

How can someone possibly know how many rapes are NOT REPORTED, since by definition, the person compiling the statistics is gathering data that's not reported?

It's like saying, I know how many UFO sightings weren't reported last year.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #72)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:24 PM

73. Many rapes are reported to other agencies besides law enforcement

Your comparison to UFO sitings is rude and counterproductive and ignorant.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #73)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:29 PM

74. Then those agencies are covering up a crime that should be prosecuted. nt

 

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #74)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:54 PM

76. Many rapes aren't reported BECAUSE they can't be prosecuted

Many women know that if they report the rape, it will not be prosecuted.

Many women know that if they report the rape, their rapist will make life hell for them.

I honestly don't know if you're just being obtuse, rude, or ignorant, but most people who have made any kind of study of the overall problem of rape and other forms of violence against women already know the reasons why rape isn't prosecuted, even when it's reported. When state budgets are cut and rape kits are no longer provided to victims unless they pay for them, there's virtually no evidence to prosecute with. When the rapist is the woman's husband or boyfriend, the father of her children, the provider of her sustenance, she's not able to prosecute. And yes, that's part of the rape/abuse syndrome: He uses his power over her as a means to coerce her into sex, and that is just as much real rape as the stranger in the dark alley. When police dismiss the charge as "a domestic dispute," women get the message pretty darn quick that nothing's going to happen even if they do level a charge.

Many women have so internalized their own blame even BEFORE they're assaulted, that if and when it finally does happen, they've already exonerated their assailant.

Many women don't even know that what they've experienced is real rape. Did he threaten to go out and find a prostitute if you didn't have sex with him, so you gave in rather than risk he'd get a disease and pass it along to you? That's coercion, and that's rape. Did he threaten to divorce you and take the kids away from you if you didn't have sex with him? That's rape. Did you have a few drinks and then couldn't seem to make it clear to him that you didn't really want to have sex with him but he did it anyway and how he's saying you told him he could? You weren't able to give consent if you were drunk, and that's real rape. Did he tell you you've had sex with him before and you might as well have sex with him again because no one would ever believe you were raped? It's still rape.

If the woman doesn't want to have sex and the man uses coercion, threats, or other forms of intimidation to have sex with her against her will, it's rape; but many women just plain don't know that, and so they've been raped and don't report it and it's not prosecuted but that doesn't make it any less rape.


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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:55 AM

87. Tansy you've done a terrific job of making your point on this thread

Don't let one die hard opinionated person who defends blaming the victim make you think you're arguments aren't really effective.

I'm very glad I read this thread. You're saying things most of us know but haven't been as effective at getting our point across as you are. Thanks.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:02 AM

90. +1

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Response to lunatica (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:00 AM

107. Thank you, Lunatica, and redqueen, too

I probably should add the disclaimer that my undergrad degree is in Women's Studies, so I've probably done more reading on this topic than most, and I have a graduate degree in sociology with an emphasis on gender and women's studies. One of my undergrad honors projects involved surveying women incarcerated at the Maricopa County Jail -- yes, sheriff Joe's domain -- regarding life history. The survey did NOT include questions like "Have you ever been raped?" but went about eliciting that kind of information through much more subtle means. Most of the women I interviewed were charged -- and some convicted -- with drug-related crimes, including burglary, theft, and prostitution to fund drug habits. I don't recall a single one who didn't have some history of sexual abuse.

I've often wondered if the 1-in-4 statistic about women who have experienced rape or attempted rape isn't a bit low. Almost no woman I know doesn't have some tale of a husband who insisted or a boyfriend who was too aggressive or a boss who couldn't keep his hands to himself.



TG



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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:14 AM

109. I think you've obviously got the bona fides to show you know what you're talking about

Your disclaimer shows that. But to include it as a disclaimer instead of a reason to know what you're talking about is like saying you might be disqualified because you know the facts.

You can speak for me anytime.

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:57 AM

123. What are YOU

 

doing to stop male violence against women?

How much of your energy goes to denying there is a problem?

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Response to mistertrickster (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:25 AM

100. I would imagine if a woman goes to the hospital after she's been raped

but declines to press charges, that statistic is still counted as a sexual assault (since rape is a legal term) by someone somewhere.

You ask how people know about the 80%, well, there are these things called surveys and people fill them out, then the folks conducting the survey do some math and figure from the surveys the percentage. Most women who don't report their rapes do so because they say it's too personal. Of course, they've been traumatized and in order to report and prosecute rape, one must be traumatized over and over again. Still, in many cases that do go to court, the women have to prove they didn't somehow deserve the rape. That's standard defense strategy and really, who wants or should have to go through that?

Finally, why is this argument so important to you? Why are you bothered by the fact that you personally don't know how that number is arrived at?

Instead of arguing that rape is somehow akin to ufo sitings, do some Googling and get yourself educated about how it's done instead of somehow subtly suggesting that rape statistics are false. I wish we had a way to have an anonymous thread for a day (since the polls aren't working yet) and post the question, "Have you ever been raped?" and see the number of replies that come back. Of course, you'd probably argue that those replying in the affirmative are lying. That seems to be the tenor of your post anyway.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:43 AM

113. That is not logical, captain.



> "Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped?"

Yes, clearly nothing that has been tried to date has been 100% effective, or even close.

But that's not evidence that public awareness campaigns can't/don't/haven't produce(d) reductions in the number of rapes per year, possibly significant ones.

And if they can, I'm afraid I'd support them, whether or not they distress people (I don't care much if they cause offence; I do care a good deal if they cause distress, but not enough to justify not supporting something that would reduce the number of rapes).



>That's the kind of guy who needs to be educated. Apparently some on this thread think it can't be done, and others think it doesn't need to be. Either way, that's a pretty dismal assessment of men.

Again, I think you're wrong to think in terms of all-or-nothing rather than percentages. The vast majority of men are not rapists; some will always be. The question is not "can we stop men committing rape" but "can we reduce the number of men who commit rape" - or, alternatively, "can we reduce the number of men who would commit rape when presented with an opportunity". And I'm afraid that I'm sceptical that we can - not because of a dismal assessment of men, but because so much is already being done.

Rape is already more stigmatised than any other crime, including murder*, and it's also very severely punished (in the minority of cases where it can actually be proved). I'm not convinced that public-awareness "don't rape" campaigns will tell anyone anything they don't already know, or change the thinking of any of the small minority of men who don't already get that rape is wrong.

Whereas I think that public awareness campaigns highlighting ways to reduce the risk of being raped at non-excessive cost to oneself** may well provide people with new information, change the way they think, and hence do more to reduce the number of rapes than campaigns targeted at the one demographic who don't* want to reduce the number of rapes.

I don't have any data to that effect, but I think it's the way to bet, for the reasons I've stated above.




*Rightly, in my view - murder is clearly far worse for the victim, but whereas a non-trivial number of murderers appear to have motivations I can feel at least a little sympathy for, I find it hard to envisage any non-monstrous motivation for rape.

**Not "campaigns highlighting ways not to be raped", and they shouldn't be framed as that, either by their supporters or their opponents.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:16 AM

116. a very large group of boys/men you do not address are those that dont see rape, as rape.

 

do you get that.

thru out society, media and the manner boys are raised they are encouraged to "convince" the girl to have sex. girls are "encouraged" to be reticent about sex. both genders are set up. that is what is continually being addressed and what needs to be heard.

for both genders.

and so many refuse to acknowledge this.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #116)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 11:00 AM

125. Yes

 

http://www.dps.siu.edu/cp_sexual_assault.htm

84% of rapist don't even admit to raping.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #63)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 11:07 PM

70. I heard a LOT of advice when Kobe, Tyson, and Roethlisberger were accused.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:34 AM

85. K

 

Without R.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 08:15 AM

95. I am so sick and tired of the women being blamed for this

30 years and we're still at fault for being raped.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:38 AM

111. I think a "don't rape" campaign could be effective,

But there's many different types of rapists. There's the most common one, which can be talked out of doing what they're going to do (or they'll stop when you bop the on the nose or pepper spray them - but they also seek out incapacitated (or drunk) people, so, problem). There's aggressive ones that you certainly don't want to fight because they'll probably kill you, but maybe they can also be lessened through a campaign. Then, there's the rarest - the sociopath who enjoys human suffering. God help those who are attacked by the last category - ad campaigns are as meaningless to them as trying to appeal to them as a human being. The only thing that can stop them is jail or death.

Certainly we can think of something that isn't outright offensive or sexist, though. Many times, these types of ad campaigns are, when they really shouldn't be. Maybe also encourage people to report rapes (which is another HUGE problem) and offer more survivor services.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:54 PM

165. I am way late to this party. Busy few days, but have to add my "voice" of support. nt

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:13 PM

171. "is it rape?"

here's a post from the "old DU" dated 11/07: current additions in italics

is it rape when a man wheedles and begs and pleads incessantly for hours, days unless the woman gives in and "has sex" even though she don't want to?

is it reasonable for a man, whose SO for whatever reason (physical, emotional, psychological) is unable to freely have relations, to go out and "get it" elsewhere? Is it HER fault? Is he justified because she won't give it up? Because, after all, men NEED to get laid, right? If he's not getting what he NEEDS from the relationship then it's okay for him to seek it elsewhere. However, if she's not getting what she needs from the relationship, it is NOT okay for her to seek it elsewhere, of course. and then he wants to come home and do it and godforbid you should be upset that he had sex with some stranger - hooker, stripper, whoever - and you KNOW he won't use a condom!

is it rape if he browbeats and threatens to leave if she doesn't do it? and frequently packs up his clothes in the car leaving the children crying please don't make daddy leave, cause of course he tells them it's mommy's fault he has to go so you give in and do it

is it rape if he er - "insists" that she have sex. as in - you know - you say NO - and he does it anyway

is it rape if she wakes up to find that he's having sex with her?

is it rape if - after repeated incidents (wheedling, pleading, threatening, insulting, whining) she'll finally say - just do it. hurry up and get it over with. and just lays there and he does it and then gets pissed because she didn't enjoy it? and she gets up and throws up and hides in the bathroom until he falls asleep?

when he's drunk. when he's mad. when's he sad. when he's happy. when he's BORED. sex sex sex sex sex sex.

Like it's the ONLY thing that matters.

If she feels like a blow up a doll, a piece of meat, if she feels like he doesn't give a DAMN about her or her feelings, if he's oh so very good at telling her how much he f'ing HATES her and how she ruined his gd life! but oh yeah, how about a blow, honey? C'mon, you know you want it. . .



When it's got to the point when he's drinking that she adds a little something to his beer so he'll please dear god fall asleep quickly. And he does on the couch and she leaves him there and goes to bed only to be awakened about 3 am by his pawing so she says she has to go to the bathroom and sits there in the dark using a towel as a blanket 'cause it's damn cold waiting waiting waiting for him to fall back asleep. And as she starts to walk back into the bedroom she realizes what the hell am I doing? if I go in there he'll just wake up now or in the morning and start in again, so she goes downstairs and sleep on the couch. And he wakes up the next morning confused a little bit but wants her to "bring him coffee". Don't worry about the kids, they're still asleep. So she makes sure to wake them up as soon as possible. But then he says, turn on the tv for 'em and lock the door. simple.

And she gets to the point that she keep her kids in the house and won't let them go outside to play or to a friends house when he's home, because if he gets her alone, he's going to START.

then there's the night he chases you around the house threatening to f'ing kill you if you don't just f him and you wind up hiding behind a piece of furniture all night long in the middle of winter freezing because you're afraid to come out.

When you try and try and try to get him to understand that if he would just stop acting in such a manner, then maybe you could have normal relations at some point but as long as he acting the way he is, you just CAN'T - and he gets mad and calls you a frigid bitch and leaves for the strip club. And then comes home and wants it 'cause - well he was at the strip club and he's all h-rny so you should just DO IT whether you FING WANT TO OR NOT!

Begging, pleading, wheedling, threatening, crying, storming out, coming back, yelling, screaming, name-calling . . . until she "gives in".

Tell me, is it rape?

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Response to mzteris (Reply #171)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 07:21 PM

173. Thank you for posting that here. (nt)

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:14 PM

176. I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this

 

I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this constant broad brushing of all men as rapists offensive here on DU.

I have to say that I have been in the situation on quite a number of occasions in the last 10 years of having been with a date who got too drunk for her own good and I've always been that guy who did NOT take advantage when he certainly could have.

What have I learned about this type of situation in the past few years is that always acting like a gentleman perpetually gets me put into "the friend zone" and that a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose so as to give themselves permission to fool around with a guy.

When the guy doesn't go for it under these circumstances, she decides he lacks assertiveness rather than deciding that he is a gentleman worthy of her affection. Ultimately the guy who always acts the gentleman almost always gets rejected for some more exciting "dangerous" guy who won't think twice about taking advantage.

In spite of having learned this bit of politically incorrect dating reality in the last few years, I still have had it programmed into me so long that I shouldn't take advantage in situations like this that I won't do it even now.

Instead of blaming men for everything bad that happens between the genders, women need to stop sending mixed signals to us and playing mind games with us. We men are straightforward creatures - we either like you or we don't and we hate playing guessing games and putting our egos and hearts out there to be crushed by women who refuse to be clear about what they want or don't want.

As far as date rape goes women need to stop dating "bad boys" and stop rewarding bad behavior in men if they want to avoid the obvious bad consequences that come from dating those same "bad boys". I have little sympathy left to give at this point given that always being the gentleman gets me punished not rewarded by the fairer sex.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #176)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:20 PM

177. 1. There is no broad brushing of "all men as rapists".

2. There is no such thing as a "friend zone"... that is an ego-serving lie. "Friend zone" = she's just not that into you. Accept it, or don't, but move on.

3. Cut the PUA bullshit. Women don't get drunk so they can 'give themselves permission' and they don't do any of that other seduction community bullshit.

4. Men need to stop thinking that women send out any more mixed signals than men do.

5. No one here is blaming men for "everything bad that happens between the genders".

6. Men aren't all "straightforward", some of them play games, just like SOME women do... ffs... what kind of Mars/Venus idiocy are you going to try to sell here?

I have to quote you here, cause this is just too good:

"As far as date rape goes women need to stop dating "bad boys" and stop rewarding bad behavior in men if they want to avoid the obvious bad consequences that come from dating those same "bad boys". I have little sympathy left to give at this point given that always being the gentleman gets me punished not rewarded by the fairer sex."


7. AWESOME job blaming women for being date raped!

Ooh and you referred to women having sex as a "reward"!

You win the thread!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #177)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:28 PM

178. can I call you a whaambulance for telling you the truth?

 

1) There absolutely IS a "friend zone" women divide men into exciting guys and boring guys and boring predictable dependable guys end up in the friend zone.

2) What the hell is PUA? My magic decoder ring is broken on that. I know this first hand and it is clearly true. Sorry if you haven't seen it.

3) Men don't send out mixed signals. It's not in our nature to do so.

4) The ones that play games do so because women expect them to do so. Perhaps I should learn.

5) Yes men really are straightforward. That's just the fact.

6) Yes women by and large are responsible for date rapes in that they choose to go out with creepy guys and have their creepy guy radar set to pick out the lone creep within 100 miles of them while ignoring the guys who won't rape them.

7) No I did NOT refer to sex as reward - you inferred something I did not imply. Being a gentleman DOES NOT get me anywhere with women because they view it as not being assertive rather than being respectful. Sorry if you don't live in the real world with your politically correct nonsense but what I am stating is clearly the reality.

back at you and your man bashing posts.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #178)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:36 PM

179. No but you can use one yourself for your excuses for rejection.

1) There absolutely IS a "friend zone" women divide men into exciting guys and boring guys and boring predictable dependable guys end up in the friend zone.


No... guys they like are guys they like, and guys they like but not like like go in the friend zone.


2) What the hell is PUA? My magic decoder ring is broken on that. I know this first hand and it is clearly true. Sorry if you haven't seen it.


It's where all that 'women get drunk to "give themselves permission" to have sex' abhorrent repulsiveness comes from.

How exactly do you think you've "seen this firsthand"? Did a woman sober up and tell you that she was drunk cause she was trying to "give herself permission"? Is that how you found out these magical secrets about us mysterious women?


3) Men don't send out mixed signals. It's not in our nature to do so.


smh


4) The ones that play games do so because women expect them to do so. Perhaps I should learn.


smh again

Let me get this straight... so... if women play games, it's cause it's "in their nature", but if men do it, it's cause "women expect them to"?

Wow... just.... wow... and you're whining about some imaginary women who blame men for everything. Project much?


5) Yes men really are straightforward. That's just the fact.


... just smh.


6) Yes women by and large are responsible for date rapes in that they choose to go out with creepy guys and have their creepy guy radar set to pick out the lone creep within 100 miles of them while ignoring the guys who won't rape them.


Thanks for repeating it. Really, thank you.


7) No I did NOT refer to sex as reward - you inferred something I did not imply. Being a gentleman DOES NOT get me anywhere with women because they view it as not being assertive rather than being respectful. Sorry if you don't live in the real world with your politically correct nonsense but what I am stating is clearly the reality.


Right. In the real world, women don't like gentlemen, and you didn't just say:

"... women need to stop dating "bad boys" and stop rewarding bad behavior in men if they want to avoid the obvious bad consequences that come from dating those same "bad boys"."


Or is it your assertion that you weren't referring to sex when you said women need to stop "rewarding" bad behavior in men? And if not, what exactly were you referring to?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #179)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 09:45 PM

180. reply

 

) There absolutely IS a "friend zone" women divide men into exciting guys and boring guys and boring predictable dependable guys end up in the friend zone.


No... guys they like are guys they like, and guys they like but not like like go in the friend zone.


Not true. This term has appeared in popular culture because it has actual truth to it. Women don't want to "risk" friendships by turning them into relationships and who do they make friends with: reliable trustworthy guys. Who do they date: exciting dangerous guys.

2) What the hell is PUA? My magic decoder ring is broken on that. I know this first hand and it is clearly true. Sorry if you haven't seen it.

It's where all that 'women get drunk to "give themselves permission" to have sex' abhorrent repulsiveness comes from.

How exactly do you think you've "seen this firsthand"? Did a woman sober up and tell you that she was drunk cause she was trying to "give herself permission"? Is that how you found out these magical secrets about us mysterious women?

I don't know what you are talking about. I have observed this behavior FIRSTHAND AND YES actually I have had this conversation and that is exactly what I meant. Sorry if you don't want to believe it.

3) Men don't send out mixed signals. It's not in our nature to do so.

smh

??? SMH???? sorry I don't have your magic acronym decoder...

4) The ones that play games do so because women expect them to do so. Perhaps I should learn.

smh again

?? again with the magic acronyms...

Let me get this straight... so... if women play games, it's cause it's "in their nature", but if men do it, it's cause "women expect them to"?

Wow... just.... wow... and you're whining about some imaginary women who blame men for everything. Project much?

Not imaginary at all.. real life women I've known personally.


5) Yes men really are straightforward. That's just the fact.

... just smh.

Care to spell out smh for me?

6) Yes women by and large are responsible for date rapes in that they choose to go out with creepy guys and have their creepy guy radar set to pick out the lone creep within 100 miles of them while ignoring the guys who won't rape them.


Thanks for repeating it. Really, thank you.

You are quite welcome. I stand by it. Really. I don't care if you are offended or disagree - it's the truth.

7) No I did NOT refer to sex as reward - you inferred something I did not imply. Being a gentleman DOES NOT get me anywhere with women because they view it as not being assertive rather than being respectful. Sorry if you don't live in the real world with your politically correct nonsense but what I am stating is clearly the reality.


Right. In the real world, women don't like gentlemen,

Not in my observation they don't...

and you didn't just say:

"... women need to stop dating "bad boys" and stop rewarding bad behavior in men if they want to avoid the obvious bad consequences that come from dating those same "bad boys"."

Or is it your assertion that you weren't referring to sex when you said women need to stop "rewarding" bad behavior in men? And if not, what exactly were you referring to?

I want more than just "sex" from a woman - I want a full relationship. These bad boys just want sex. Again you are conflating all men together. When women reward bad boy behavior, they should expect it to be reinforced in men who see that it works and that being "a good boy" doesn't.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #180)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:04 PM

182. i married my friend. i have always liked nice guys, wont accept anything less in my life

 

never drank for the purpose of getting laid.

cant speak for all the women in the world.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #182)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 01:21 AM

190. I've always preferred being sober

That way I can be in control of the situation, enjoy it more, and -- best of all -- remember the next morning how good it was the night before!

Funny thing is -- the whole "bad boy" meme is straight out of Hollywood, TV, and romance novels. Pure pop culture, with very little reality.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #180)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:08 PM

183. ... it just gets worse, doesn't it?

Not true. This term has appeared in popular culture because it has actual truth to it. Women don't want to "risk" friendships by turning them into relationships and who do they make friends with: reliable trustworthy guys. Who do they date: exciting dangerous guys.


That is ego-serving nonsense.


I don't know what you are talking about. I have observed this behavior FIRSTHAND AND YES actually I have had this conversation and that is exactly what I meant. Sorry if you don't want to believe it.


It's scary to think a woman actually told you that she got drunk to "give herself permission" to have sex with someone. Sickening and scary.

Regardless... please don't project someone's serious issues onto an entire sex. Thanks.


Not imaginary at all.. real life women I've known personally.


Real life women you've known personally what? They told you that all women play game cause it's in our nature? Told you that men don't? WTF?

Whichever, it's a bunch of bullshit.


I want more than just "sex" from a woman - I want a full relationship. These bad boys just want sex. Again you are conflating all men together. When women reward bad boy behavior, they should expect it to be reinforced in men who see that it works and that being "a good boy" doesn't.


This is simply ****** up.

So tell me... in your reality... if a woman doesn't want a relationship and just wants sex, she's 'rewarding bad behavior'? Or is she a 'bad girl'? How exactly do the women's wishes fit into this nonsense? And how does it at ALL mean that ANY rape is a woman's fault?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #183)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:37 PM

230. ...

 

Not true. This term has appeared in popular culture because it has actual truth to it. Women don't want to "risk" friendships by turning them into relationships and who do they make friends with: reliable trustworthy guys. Who do they date: exciting dangerous guys.



That is ego-serving nonsense.


NO really it is not. You are just an absolutist who doesn't live in the real world and doesn't know the first thing about what she is talking about. Give up already - you know better.

I don't know what you are talking about. I have observed this behavior FIRSTHAND AND YES actually I have had this conversation and that is exactly what I meant. Sorry if you don't want to believe it.



It's scary to think a woman actually told you that she got drunk to "give herself permission" to have sex with someone. Sickening and scary.

Sorry if you can't face reality. It's not me who does the drinking. I don't really like drinking that much and only do it to look like an adult in adult social situations.

Regardless... please don't project someone's serious issues onto an entire sex. Thanks.


Not imaginary at all.. real life women I've known personally.


You claim to have absolute knowledge of what all women think which is just delusional absolutist nonsense.


Real life women you've known personally what? They told you that all women play game cause it's in our nature? Told you that men don't? WTF?

Whichever, it's a bunch of bullshit.

AGAIN YOU CANNOT CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT EVERY WOMAN IN THE WORLD THINKS. Very few women in my experience have NOT been game players and the ones that are NOT game players are actually the ones I am the most interested in because they are the easiest to communicate with.


I want more than just "sex" from a woman - I want a full relationship. These bad boys just want sex. Again you are conflating all men together. When women reward bad boy behavior, they should expect it to be reinforced in men who see that it works and that being "a good boy" doesn't.



This is simply ****** up.

NO IT ISN'T. YOU WANTING TO TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN CHOICES AND BLAME MEN FOR THE OUTCOME OF YOUR BAD DECISIONS IS ***** UP.

So tell me... in your reality... if a woman doesn't want a relationship and just wants sex, she's 'rewarding bad behavior'? Or is she a 'bad girl'? How exactly do the women's wishes fit into this nonsense? And how does it at ALL mean that ANY rape is a woman's fault?

I really am OK if a woman just wants sex I don't judge - I don't get into "good girl" "bad girl" nonsense - most men don't - that's just something in my experience that women use against other women - but if she does just want sex then 1) how is that rape? 2) what does it have to do with this conversation which is about women being date raped which is clearly about women NOT wanting to have sex? and 3) She should expect to live with the consequences of her decision to do so if it turns out that the guy she wanted to have sex with turns out to be a stalker, abuser, drug addict, or whatever.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #177)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:01 PM

202. Men AND women get drunk as an excuse to have sex

What they don't do is get so drunk that they are passed out so that they will have an excuse for somebody to put an object into them while they are asleep. That would negate the point of sex.

That's one of the reason that IMO, these blanket statements about alcohol are not very helpful. People can be plenty intoxicated and consent to sex. However there's a pretty clear line between intoxicated passed out or at least so drunk that they are unaware of what's going on.

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #202)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:03 PM

203. If you *assume* that a woman gets drunk in order to have sex with you,

that's dangerous and very fucked up.

If it's some kind of game between you and someone you know, whatever... but to imply that that's the case for a majority of women is to tell men that if some woman gets drunk that that's as good as saying 'yes'.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #203)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:18 PM

208. Again, I don't see why this is so difficult...

A woman being drunk IS NOT a green light that you can have sex with her. A woman telling you that she wants to have sex with you, is.

Alcohol often leads people (men and women alike) to do things they would not do sober. Sometimes they get drunk intentionally because they want to do things they would not do when sober.

I couldn't tell you if a majority of people do this. I couldn't tell you whether or not anybody I've slept with has ever done this. I can tell you that every time I've slept with someone, consent was very very clear. Thus I saw no reason to ask in the morning "did you get drunk because you wouldn't want to have sex with me sober?".

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #208)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:29 PM

212. " a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ...

so as to give themselves permission to fool around with a guy."

*That* is the comment I was addressing.

Now, check it out in context:

"I have to say that I have been in the situation on quite a number of occasions in the last 10 years of having been with a date who got too drunk for her own good and I've always been that guy who did NOT take advantage when he certainly could have.

What have I learned about this type of situation in the past few years is that always acting like a gentleman perpetually gets me put into "the friend zone" and that a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose so as to give themselves permission to fool around with a guy.

When the guy doesn't go for it under these circumstances, she decides he lacks assertiveness rather than deciding that he is a gentleman worthy of her affection. Ultimately the guy who always acts the gentleman almost always gets rejected for some more exciting "dangerous" guy who won't think twice about taking advantage.

In spite of having learned this bit of politically incorrect dating reality in the last few years, I still have had it programmed into me so long that I shouldn't take advantage in situations like this that I won't do it even now."


If you think that idea is fine and dandy, in context, then I don't really know what else to say to you.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #212)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:41 PM

214. As I posted above, I think the poster is frustrated by some bad experiences

I also think that in this post the term "That drunk" is ill defined and "Take advantage of" may or may not be being used incorrectly here. Nobody should EVER take advantage of somebody sexually. But if people have sex while drunk, it's not necessarily one person taking advantage of another.

So again what is "That drunk"? I've been pretty shitfaced drunk and totally willing to have sex. I imagine there's nothing that biologically precludes women from wanting to have sex while shitfaced drunk, either. Nobody is taking advantage of anybody in that situation

However, if I'm hugging a toilet, so drunk that I don't know where I am, or passed out, odds are pretty damn good that I won't be enjoying sex and I'm not going to consent to it. If sex does happen under THOSE circumstances, odds are pretty good that somebody is taking advantage of somebody else.

Again, people do get drunk to lower inhibitions and make it more likely that they will have sex. People DON'T get passed out, blackout, hugging a toilet drunk in order to have sex. That would defeat the purpose.


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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #214)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:45 PM

215. "too drunk for her own good"

"didn't take advantage when he certainly could have"

Don't know where the uncertainty is coming from. It's right there... he's saying most women want men to "take advantage" of them when they get "too drunk for their own good".

You also seem to have missed the part where he said it's women's fault if they're raped on dates. I noticed you said you agreed with what the poster was saying, so... maybe I misunderstood you, or maybe you did miss that part. I don't know, but this entire subthread is ****** creepy as all hell. Extremely creepy and downright sickening actually.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #215)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

228. no I'm not saying most I am saying some...

 

and I'm sorry but women ARE responsible for THEIR choices in dating - you can't claim to be liberated and have the right to make choices and THEN deny all responsibility for the outcomes of those choices if they are bad choices.

This is NOT to say that men don't have any responsibilities to behave like gentlemen and respect women but you can NOT lay the problem entirely on ALL men in these broadbrush postings and deny ALL responsibility on the part of those (not all) women who do make bad choices.

The reality is that if you go out with a creepy guy you shouldn't expect good things to happen but there are plenty of women who go out of their way to ignore obvious warning signs because they guy is attractive or some how exotic or exciting. I am expecting you as an adult to make good choices and to live with the consequences of your choices regardless and stop blaming ME for your bad choices.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #228)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:41 PM

237. You said "most".

I'm sorry you chose your words poorly. I don't usually re-interpret things to make them less sickening.

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Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #202)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 03:53 PM

223. My rule is that she must be 1) more sober than me. 2) not have had more than 3 glasses of wine in

 

the last hour (or equivalent) 3) Not be to the point or worse that I wouldn't trust her with my car.

I think drinking and sex can be a pretty dangerous thing regardless of gender if we are talking beyond 2 or 3 drinks in one evening.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #223)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 03:58 PM

224. i think those are pretty good ground rules

 

though, more than a couple glasses of wine in an hour isnt a good thing, lol. being a wine drinker myself.

and

i am sorry you cant find someone that sees the special in you. i want everyone to be able to experience that. i dont believe it is all one gender or another. just good people and not so good....

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #224)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:14 PM

226. actually I am such an easy drunk (and I am a relatively big guy) that 2 or 3 glasses and I have a

 

definite buzz going and beyond that I am plowed. I might go months without drinking anything at all and typically I might have one or two beers a month.

I've known a number of fairly heavy drinking women though for whom 2 or 3 glasses is nothing and they are really in much better shape than me at that point so it all depends on a lot of factors.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #226)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:17 PM

227. bah haha, see. i drink like you do.

 

and i only drink red wine. half a glass and i am buzzed. by two, well, hell... having fun. dancing on the table time, ....

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #223)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 05:11 PM

234. I think you have entirely too broad a definition of "taking advantage of"

I think a person can be way drunker than you describe and still consent to sex. Nobody is taking advantage of anybody in that case.

But, if you re uncomfortable having sex under those conditions, that's totally your prerogative.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #176)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:43 PM

184. You should be honored that several women found you to be trustworthy friends

Some of them might be disappointed that you just wanted to date them after all, though. As a woman, I have had male friends who I wanted to date, but did not want to date me. Yes, sometimes I thought that they were sending mixed signals. I usually accepted this, though, and tried to focus my attraction on someone else. I did have male friends that I had no interest in dating though, often it was because they were unattractive or had some personality flaw that would make a long term exclusive relationship undesireable.
Was there actually a woman who was passed out drunk who told you that she wanted to have sex with you? Did you try to make a date? If you did and she refused, she either did not want a relationship with you or is so messed up psychologically that you probably did not want to date her anyway.

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Response to Nikia (Reply #184)

Sun Jan 22, 2012, 04:11 PM

225. that would be great if it wasn't ALWAYS the case. Women love to make friends with me.

 

Making friends with women has never ever been a problem. They love to make me their friend and share emotionally with me. It has been much harder finding women who want to be more than just friends. For some guys it never is - they go into a place and women throw themselves at these guys in spite of the fact that they are obviously creeps.

I don't know where the part about "try to make a date" comes in.. of course I ask women I am interested in on dates. Not very successful at it though. I am generally lucky to go on a few dates a year although this year has been much better than most.

As for the second part: NO, never passed out drunk - what would be the point in that anyways, that's just disgusting and creepy - but I have had women who were very drunk who put moves on me that I did not feel comfortable about reciprocating because they were so drunk and I thought they would regret it and hate me later if I did reciprocate. These same women would never do the same thing with me when sober so I felt it was inappropriate and didn't do it - but then I've been told by a few of them that I should have taken the opportunity and that I "lacked confidence" by not doing so when that opportunity was offered.

As for women being psychologically "messed up" - I am afraid that the vast majority of available women I meet ARE psychologically messed up for any number of reasons from literal psychiatric conditions requiring prescription medication, to abuse to career stress to bad boyfriends or ex husbands to physical violence to personal tragedies to bizarre expectations and world views about men - there is always a lot of baggage. The women without (or with relatively little) psychological baggage always seem to already be married or in long term relationships - and honestly the most attractive feature to me of a woman is that she is non-game playing, low baggage/low maintenance, reliable and relatively predictable and this really is the hardest quality to find in a woman in my experience.

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Response to ddeclue (Reply #176)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 08:32 PM

213. I think you're broad brushing women based on some bad experiences

While I agree with you that all of these things are true in SOME cases, there's plenty of women out there who like to have sex while sober.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:01 PM

181. Sexual Assault Prevention Tips

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 10:09 AM

195. Never.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 07:37 PM

201. I agreed up until the part about consumption of alcohol

But I think it's degrading to women to suggest that they can't consent to sex after they've been drinking, especially if you don't say the same about men.

If maybe they had said "when a person is passed out drunk or too intoxicated to understand what's going on, then they can't give consent" I'll agree with that.

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