Gaza has been burnt to the ground

[malaise]

and there are over 33,000 dead Palestinians and others.
That was deliberate action by Israel not words.
Do not expect silence, support and no protests from the children and grandchildren of folks who fought against the Nazis in support of Jews in WW2 and since.
Ethnic cleansing, genocide and war crimes will continue to be condemned.
I will not support the atrocities in Gaza.
That is all - for now.

[OLDMDDEM]

1. It is sickening what is happening over there. I with you on this.

[David__77]

2. Protest isn't only justified, it is urgently needed.

[forgotmylogin]

142. And use caution when blaming Biden. It's Netanyahu.

Biden is wisely keeping powder dry on this due to difficult politics involved - Israel has been a historical ally, but it's hard to split the difference when their government is committing atrocities to both-sides the issue.

The people who say they "can't support Biden" due to his reluctance to put down tent spikes in the conflict don't realize that the alternative would be absolutely worse. Trump would have no problems allowing or helping Netanyahu wipe Gaza's "brown populace" off the map and then claiming he "solved" the Palestine/Israel conflict.

[jimmiles]

241. I would argue that there's no better time to attempt to influence an incumbent.

We cannot truly predict the November votes of those who now claim they "can't support" D candidates for complicity in arming Netanyahu's atrocity-machine. And whether they do vote Blue or not, they have every right to stand on the principle of human rights. It may be Netanyahu's war, but it wasn't him who built the Israel lobby in DC. That long predates him, and Dems need to divest of accepting foreign influence $$$. They funnel way too much money to Israel's unjustifiable occupation-wars that needs to be invested here at home.

[forgotmylogin]

244. I totally understand.

But this is a *really* awkward time for "protest" votes. Definitely the point needs to be at the forefront, but putting Trump in the White House will not improve things for Palestinians, no matter how much of a lesson people feel it teaches to the Democratic Party and Biden.

Someone saying they're voting for Trump instead of Biden due to eggshell-stepping in the Gaza conflict is akin to jumping off a sinking ship holding an anvil because they are not happy with the fit of the life-jackets.

[jimfields33]

3. Burnt to the ground?

Is there nothing left? I haven’t heard it completely gone.

[Celerity]

12. sorry to hear that the level of devastation doesn't meet your criteria, I guess tell Netanyahu to speed it up

[niyad]

20. Thank you.

[malaise]

25. Thank you

Rec

[PatSeg]

26. Powerful photos

The destruction is beyond comprehension.

[claudette]

35. Shame

on Israel. How is Gaza ever able to fight against such mighty violence?

[Celerity]

66. the dis-proportionality of response long ago crossed into war crimes territory IMHO, but hey, some assholes

at Ivy League and other unis (with a more than fair share of interloper accelerationists with ill intent overall mixed in for added theatre and projection) are chanting hateful things (with, admittedly some shit street level thuggish violence mixed in, but NOTHING like Israel's and Hamas' violence) so it's bombs away!

Clear that beachfront property (and get those offshore natural gas deposits whilst you are at it, just in case they turn out to be fossil fuel gold) so that the Netanyahu base racist, homophobic, tribalist-supremacist Israeli religio-loons can take ALL the land and the RW multi-national (Kushner!, is that you mate?, and oh look, you brought your head-chopper Saudi friends to invest, let's pop that Dom and Cristal champagne and SPRAY it like it's a Dirty South strip club) billionaire set can profit billions in the execution of that total land grab (West Bank included, that is only going to get worse and worse).

[PatrickforB]

114. Yeah, you got that right. When Jared talked about developing beachfront property in Gaza, it made

me totally want to puke.

These people are being killed, starved, dying of thirst and this guy wants to make money off that?

When in the heck did we become so cruel.

Because this is cruel.

[OrangeJoe]

127. Protests at Columbia

My niece is an undergraduate at Columbia. She sent me a message yesterday describing what is going on there. She says that the vast majority of the people protesting and causing problems are not students. She said the cops were complete assholes and overreacting and pushing around everybody. She also said she's seen and heard a LOT more signs and chants that are anti-Palestinian/anti-Muslim than anti-Jewish. Notably she is fairly apolitical and a finance major who is on a sports scholarship not exactly a flaming lefty radical. I think she is getting her eyes opened.

[lapucelle]

195. Campus police? N/T

[Sugarcoated]

207. You don't say?

[bdamomma]

212. Yes I heard

on news that it's the outside protesters and not the students.

Now certain jerks in the House are calling for the Dean of the college to be expelled.

[Homoudont]

238. Sports scholarship

Impossible to be in a sports scholarship at Columbia. Ivy league schools don't offer sports scholarships.

[SomewhereInTheMiddle]

239. Has that changed?

I had a friend in the 1980's that went to Columbia on a crew scholarship.

Looking it up, it has not changed.

Scholarships may be awarded for academic or athletic ability, interest in a certain subject, or volunteer work.

Source

Though it does seem that rules differ within various parts of the university.

There are no academic, athletic or talent-based institutional scholarships awarded to students at Columbia College and the undergraduate division of the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

Source

Just wanted to check.

[OrangeJoe]

243. According to her mom, my sister

My sister said my niece got assistance because she's on crew.

[OrangeJoe]

252. My mistake

My sister clarified that her daughter who is at Columbia does NOT get an actual scholarship for being on crew at school. I totally misunderstood her so I apologize for any misrepresentation on my part. As an update my niece told me that Columbia had given permission for Gavin What's his face, the founder of The Proud Boys permission to come on campus and to meet with students supporting the Zionists. I make that distinction because, according to my niece, most of the Jewish students support a ceasefire in Gaza. She also said that the ground floor lounge in her dorm has been given over to the NYPD Riot Squad to use as an office and breakroom. Something tells me the presidents of Columbia and Barnard are going to be looking for new jobs soon.

[malaise]

130. Great post sis

[Celerity]

200. thank you

[lastlib]

44. It seems comparable to Berlin, at the end of WW2...

It sickens me that ISRAEL, of all countries, would do this. IMO, they have forfeited any moral authority they might have had prior to Oct. 7. Why the US continues to aid and abet this wanton destruction baffles me.

[obamanut2012]

70. That's what it reminds me of, too

[MFM008]

225. Me too

Terrible destruction.
Most Israelis want an end to this, most Palestinians want an end to this.
The only one who doesn't want an end to this is Netanyahu.

[csziggy]

136. Or Dresden...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486

[bdamomma]

214. You can

add Ukraine to the list too.

[Martin68]

198. Tokyo suffered far worse, as did Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Pompoy]

232. From the river to the sea

That's what it gets you. We have been dealing with those crazies for decades now. They love it when they dish it out.
Not that Netanyahu isn't a bad guy. But the Palestinians aren't interested in a two state solution either.
These people are all about revenge and vendettas to an extent the rest of humanity isn't.

[Celerity]

248. From Likud (and other smaller radical RW parties) all the way back to the early 20th century Revisionist Zionists

led by Vladimir Jabotinski, there has been constant advocation for taking all of what they call Eretz Israel, using a 'from the river to the sea' motif.

It is hypocrisy for people to only come down hard on one side and not the other for using that motif, as you have millions of displaced Palestinians since 1947/48, whilst the Jewish Israelis continue to grow in number and Israel, as official state policy, has been illegally grabbing West Bank land and ethnically cleansing it of the Palestinians for ages.

......the election manifesto of the Israeli political party Likud, which stated that “between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.”

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#History_of_the_phrase

snip

...................According to American historian Robin D. G. Kelley, the phrase "began as a Zionist slogan signifying the boundaries of Eretz Israel." Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov notes that Zionist usage of such language predates the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and began with the Revisionist movement of Zionism led by Vladimir Jabotinski, which spoke of establishing a Jewish state in all of Palestine and had a song with the slogan: "The Jordan has two banks; this one is ours, and the other one too," suggesting a Jewish state extending even beyond the Jordan River.

[mountain grammy]

56. Thank you for posting these...

What comes next for this massive destruction? The Shock Doctrine I'm thinking.

[PatrickforB]

116. Totally, straight from Naomi Klein. The oligarchs will move in with bulldozers as soon as all the people are dead and

build a bunch of moneymaking properties.

It's just sick greed.

[malaise]

185. Meryl warned us

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218889416

[snot]

141. I think the Shock Doctrine approach is about

imposing a new regime on an endemic population that remains in place following the imposition.

What the Israelis are doing looks more like simply eliminating the endemic population so it can be replaced with Israelis.

That said, in both kinds of situation, vultures no doubt stand ready to profit.

[mountain grammy]

151. no doubt at all

[TeamProg]

62. Netanyahu can have Slobodan's cell at The Hague., buildings CAN be rebuilt, but NOT the THIRTY-THREE THOUSAND lives.

Sickening and barbaric War Crimes of the 21st Century, compliments of one of our "Allies" !????

[BuddhaGirl]

75. Thank you

The post you replied to is shocking and sad.

[Goddessartist]

84. Thank you.

Rec

[Orrex]

93. I've been told that Israel should be praised for its restraint

“They could have bombed Gaza to glass on day one if they wanted to,” I’m told.

Better to bomb it to ash and gravel over the course of months, I suppose.

I wonder how many thousands more Netanyahu can kill under his claimed banner of moral authority.

[malaise]

146. Great question

Rec

[jimfields33]

105. Your point is indeed valid. Yieks!

[PufPuf23]

134. Perhaps you should not be so casual about some of your comments?

We all need to dial things back and get the Democratic Party on the same page.

World at present is ripe for bad actors.

[jimfields33]

135. You provided evidence. I thanked you.

Case is long ago closed.

[PufPuf23]

140. Celerity provided the visuals of Gaza.

Noted your thanks and it was a good and surprising response. So thank you.

The recognition of what anyone can see is not so great is a step on pulling back together for a better outcome.

[Celerity]

169. Thank you for your reply.

I have repeatedly condemned the actions of the butcherous Hamas, going back well before October 7th, but this level of death and destruction go far beyond anything resembling proportional response.

Besides being half Swedish, and part black, I am also part Sephardic Jew. I also am part Lebanese. I have relatives who sit and dine in a sukkah for Sukkot (tragically the holiday that ended last year on Oct 7th), and I also have relatives who occasionally make the Hajj to Mecca (some all the way from southern Brasil).

I am an atheist, but genetically the ethnic groups on both sides of this titanic struggle, this cauldron of hate, this fire, are part of my bones, my blood, my flesh.

All this death, hate, destruction, fear, sorrow, guilt, and pain in huge part because of the wilful suspension of disbelief that allows (and has allowed for untold millenia) humans to invent, hold close, and worship a god or gods, then erect religions of control around those fictitious beings, and then send, throught history, tens of millions to their ends on this mortal coil.

I do not have a side, other than the side of peaceful coexistence. My side is getting its throat slit, its body burnt to char every day in the Levant.

The same goes for the other war horrorshows in Africa and Asia and Ukraine and Haiti and............

[AmBlue]

110. Thank you

...for posting these devastating images. What Netanyahu has done is beyond horrific.

[Happy Hoosier]

111. Wars are super-destructive.

Apparently that's a suprise?

Berlin, 1945:

[PatrickforB]

113. These pictures are worth a thousand words. Innocent people keep being killed and there needs to be PEACE now.

Netanyahu and his Likud right-wing nut party need to stop the killing.

Right now.

And these people need food, water, medical care, and housing.

[myohmy2]

160. wow...

...the IDF does a fantastic job on defenseless civilian targets...

...the ramifications of this war and devastation will last for decades...

...not good...

[Bettie]

184. Thanks, Cel, for always having receipts

You are a treasure and I am glad to hear a younger voice around here!

[malaise]

188. She sure is

Rec

[Celerity]

196. thanks sis

BOB MARLEY - Running Away (Kaya 40 Mix)

[malaise]

199. Perfect selection

[Celerity]

189. awwww, thanks

[Mr.Bill]

192. It will take generations

just to clear the wreckage.

[whopis01]

203. Thank you

[MorbidButterflyTat]

210. Thank you from me, as well.

Just heartbreaking.

[calimary]

227. Heartbreaking.

Those photos. Just heartbreaking.

[iemanja]

247. I wish you'd post this as an OP

Those calling for the destruction of Hamas need to see who is actually being killed and what the result of the war has been.

[dutch777]

4. The end game for Israel & the Palestinians in not pretty. No one, Arab or West, is looking to send $$$ to rebuild Gaza

And while Hamas as a government was a bad choice originally, it did administer government like services to keep a semblance of civil authority until its military arm let loose in October. Last thing Israel wants to do is stay in the line of fire in Gaza when all this is over and try to administer as an occupying force or de facto governmental administration. Hamas likely will survive in some form as embedded terrorists albeit significantly weakened for a time. And no one is willing to take meaningful numbers of Palestinians into their country. And we get a black eye ongoing to degree our weapons and diplomatic cover for Israel in the UN and elsewhere allow Israel to continue an overwrought and vengeful effort to try and eradicate Hamas while killing and wounding over 100k Palestinians so far while starving the rest and denying them adequate medical and basic infrastructure services. The likely "end" is there will be no end, just a lot more suffering, insecurity and waiting for the next level of calamity in the region.

[speak easy]

5. "Blinken has commitment from 5 Arab leaders to help rebuild post-war Gaza

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240118-blinken-has-commitment-from-5-arab-leaders-to-help-rebuild-post-war-gaza/

[Think. Again.]

8. I suspect the west is very much looking...

....toward rebuilding Gaza.

There are natural gas rights offshore, undeveloped beachfront property, and jared kushner is already talikng about resort building.

netanyahu is a rightwinger, do you really think he would let children's lives get in the way of profit?

[malaise]

147. Ding ding

Rec

[oldsoftie]

190. Who in their right mind would develop "beachfront property" in GAZA?

Beirut used to be a big vacation spot in the 50s too; never again.
NOBODY is going to spend any money on beach resorts in Gaza.

[Think. Again.]

194. um, yeah....

Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law, praises ‘very valuable’ potential of Gaza’s ‘waterfront property’

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — Jared Kushner, Donald Trump’s former White House adviser and his son-in-law, praised the “very valuable” potential of Gaza’s “waterfront property,” suggesting that Israel should remove civilians while it “cleans up” the area.

Full Article: https://apnews.com/article/jared-kushner-trump-israel-waterfront-property-901895eeafee867e69d0c4582a4deb47

[oldsoftie]

236. Jared's a proven idiot. Go ahead. No one in their right mind would vacation there

Its a terror attack waiting to happen every minute of every stay

[flying_wahini]

17. Not rebuild? Oh yes they will. They can't wait to build condos for more Israelis.

I bet Netanyahu has already earmarked the best spots.

[et tu]

37. just ask jared- nt

[Voltaire2]

47. Oh capitalism loves a disaster

real estate for pennies on the dollar, there is money to be made!

[Bad Thoughts]

6. War sucks. Don't start them, Hamas.

[agingdem]

23. Yup...

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 11:26 AM - Edit history (1)

Hamas invades Israel, slaughters Israelis but somehow the Palestinians are the real victims...Palestinians who support Hamas, act as their human shields, allow Hamas to stockpile weapons in tunnels under schools, hospitals, mosques..Palestinians who say nothing when Hamas diverts humanitarian aid into their own pockets enriching their billionaire leaders..billionaire leaders living in other countries..

Yes, war sucks..cities are leveled, innocents are killed and that's a fact...don't start a fucking war if you're not willing to pay the price...

[Autumn]

39. Netanyahu kept Hamas in power because of their shared goals.

The October 7 attacks on Israel killed 1,139 people, including 764 civilians and 373 Israeli security personnel. Over 33,000 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army in Gaza since the start of the war on October 7. 1,139 VS 33000 killed, over half of them children. Your Hamas bad ...10 7... no longer justifies what Israel has done. Israel and Hamas have abused the Palestinian people and the world should sanction both for what they have done to the people in Gaza.

[oldsoftie]

161. Netanyahu MUST go. But this still falls on Hamas.

They started it regardless of what was going on beforehand. They hide behind civilians. They use hospitals. they tunnel under playgrounds. They fire rockets from neighborhoods. THEY must go too
But Netanyahu is the Trump of Israel

[aggiesal]

40. Amen means I agree. Here's a huge AMEN. n/t

[obamanut2012]

71. You just stated you believe in collective punishment

Wow.

[agingdem]

73. I believe retaliation in an unprovoked war

has no guardrails..

[Butterflylady]

106. Unprovoked is a hoot.

Israel has a lot of atrocities also that are not so nice. Netanyahu is not a good guy and yet they keep him in power.

[Celerity]

204. that stance would perhaps end with you up on trial for war crimes if you were the supreme commander of a nation

and put that posture into play on a kinetic basis

you said:

I believe retaliation in an unprovoked war has no guardrails..

A central notion under international humanitarian law is the principle of proportionality: even if an attack is allowed, it must not be excessive in relation to the expected military advantage.

https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanitarian-law/ihl-principle-proportionality/

The principle of proportionality (Article 51(5) (b) API) states that even if there is a clear military target it is not possible to attack it if the expected harm to civilians, or civilian property, is excessive in relation to the expected military advantage. This is one of the most difficult rules of international humanitarian law (IHL) to apply as it requires a balance between two factors with little relevance to each other.

The principle of proportionality is also recognised as customary international law in Rule 14 of the ICRC study on customary international law.



The rule does accept that some civilian harm may be acceptable but it must be carefully weighed up against the military advantage to be gained. The rule of proportionality is the relevant rule whenever people talk of ‘collateral damage’. Even if the principle of proportionality is adhered to, the warring parties must still abide by rules on precautions in attack.

Article 51 - Protection of the civilian population

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-51

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

(a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective;

(b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or

(c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;

and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

(a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

6. Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited.

7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

8. Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57 .

[agingdem]

208. so Ukraine is in a war they did not provoke...

did the UN ask Ukraine to show restraint before they retaliated or follow the so-called rules of war or provide a corridor out of Russia or provide humanitarian aid...nope, only Israel.

Ukraine is fighting to survive by any means necessary...and no one is demanding ceasefire because innocent Russians are dying...

[Celerity]

213. If Ukraine is committing war crimes then there should be accountability. Same for Russia, Hamas, and Israel, and any

other nation (self-proclaimed advanced democracy or not) or actor(s) that choose the route of wanton killing of civilians and the disproportionate destruction of their physical infrastructure.

I do not for one second buy into your 'all rules and laws go out the window' stance.

It is an apologetic for savagery IMHO, best condemned to past.

I will never stand for a return to unfettered barbarism being given a pass.

[Stargazer99]

78. Finally reality-who started this war with permission for Hammas to start this war-Palestinians

[Butterflylady]

104. Yes, war sucks

But killing over 30,000 people to get revenge is over the top.
Israel is just making more terrorists. It's the Middle East, study the areas history. This will go on long after we are gone.

[agingdem]

107. Israel has been under attack for 75 years..

Israel is surrounded by. terrorists determined to wipe Israel off the face of the map.."from the river to the sea.." is not a chant but an end-goal..

as for making more terrorists..Palestinians instruct their children to hate Israel/hate all Jews..martyr themselves in the cause of obliterating Israel so nothing new there...

and I know the history of the Arab/Israeli conflict...I lived in Israel for two years...and I still mourn the loss of cousins who were slaughtered because they had the audacity to sit in an outdoor cafe..

[Celerity]

216. As have the Palestinians. If you look at total death tolls for the two sides since 1948, you will find it staggeringly

skewed to more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis. Not to mention the millions of Palestinian refugees.

That skewed death tally difference is now being vastly added to by the current war.

[agingdem]

217. Don't start a war if you're not willing to pay the price...

[Celerity]

230. as if the Palestinians started the Nakbah, for instance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة an-Nakbah, lit.?'The Catastrophe') was the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Mandatory Palestine during the 1948 Palestine war through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property and belongings, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is also used to describe the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians by Israel. As a whole, it covers the shattering of Palestinian society and the long-running rejection of the right of return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants.

During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Palestinian Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated, with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, or around 750,000 people, were expelled from their homes or made to flee, at first by Zionist paramilitaries through various violent means, and after the establishment of the State of Israel, by the Israel Defense Forces. By the end of the war, 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine was controlled by Israel and at least 15,000 Arabs had been killed.

Netanyahu and the RW religio-fascist loons are in the middle of Nakba 2.0 with Gaza and a slow-motion version in the West Bank. They have the full intention of driving them all out eventually if they can and seizing all of the land.

[malaise]

240. THIS

This Jamaican government finally declared support for a Palestinian state yesterday

[Bad Thoughts]

122. Fighting address security concerns

Hamas entered Israel to kill and kidnap its citizens and residents. No nation would surrender the right to respond to such violent incursions with armed intervention. The security of Israel has still not been achieved, especially because (1) there is no surrender and (2) there are still hostages.

[The Mouth]

109. I will give a damn once the hostages are relased

and not until then.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck anyone who supports them, past, present, or future.

[Orrex]

137. Fuck Hamas indeed, but what about Palestinian civilians in the meantime?

Since Hamas is unlikely to release their hostages, and since it’s not even clear that they have the ability to do so at this point, does that give Bibi the green light to continue slaughtering civilians?

Every last member of Hamas should be wiped out, but that has little to do with the innocent Palestinians who continue to suffer.

[agingdem]

144. Palestinians are not all innocent victims...

the majority of Palestinians support Hamas...they cheered the raid into Israel and the carnage that followed...they act as human shields and teach their children to hate Israel and Jews in general...

[Think. Again.]

152. Nope, that's not true...

From March 21, 2024, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183

"Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute."

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

[agingdem]

156. and yet 70% of the Palestinians supported the

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 07:27 PM - Edit history (1)

October attack..Reuters...

[Orrex]

164. I'd be interested to see how exactly that poll was conducted

Given the famously free and unrestricted access western media has had in Gaza.

[oldsoftie]

165. The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research conducted it

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.

[Orrex]

168. Thank you for the link

It's unfortunate that the poll was conducted ~2 months after Netanyahu's bombing campaign was already underway, because it's not surprising that this would sway public opinion.

It also seems clear that Netanyahu would know that his actions would increase support for Hamas.

[Orrex]

166. Yes, I've heard that exact propaganda here many, many times

Maybe next you can tell us that they have no regard for human life, etc.

Also, it's hard to imagine why an oppressed society confined for decades in an open-air prison with restricted access to resources would harbor any ill-will toward its oppressors.

Now, before some hair-trigger fool accuse me of "justifying the attack" or any similar bullshit, let's be clear: Hamas is a terrorist regime that should be eliminated permanently. Nothing justifies the October attack nor any of the horrific crimes that they committed before or after.

However, I'll need something more independent and verifiable than your say-so before I buy into the propaganda that "a majority of Palestinians support Hamas." Even if they do, is Netanyahu polling them individually before carpet-bombing neighborhoods, schools, and hospitals while invariably and unverifiably claiming that these are harboring Hamas terrorists?

Even if we accept the propaganda that "a majority of Palestinians support Hamas," how does that justify the slaughter of the others? And does that give Hamas moral permission to kill Israelis because some certain fraction of them support Netanyahu in his murderous campaign?

[oldsoftie]

163. How does a hostage take NOT have the ability to release them?

[Orrex]

167. Seriously?

Because some of the hostages were likely killed in the nonstop Israeli bombardments and are inaccessibly buried beneath tons of rubble

Because Hamas isn't a monolith and doesn't have real-time control over all of its members, some of whom may not be willing to release hostages because of their own agendas.

Because, according to NPR, Hamas doesn't appear to be the only group in Gaza holding hostages, so they're not in a position to release those.

Because Hamas knows that releasing the hostages is extremely unlikely to end Netanyahu's bombing campaign.


In short, because it's not as simple as saying "release the hostages."

[oldsoftie]

191. in each of those examples they still have the ability to release their hostages

Except for being dead, which is a moot point.

[Orrex]

201. Do you honestly believe that Netanyahu would settle for a partial release?

Of course not, and it's frankly disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

There's little to suggest that Netanyahu even wants the conflict to end, so he would almost certainly--given what we have seen of his totalitarian, unilateral actions--use any excuse to reject any conciliatory steps that Hamas might take.

Let's say that Hamas releases all but 10 of the surviving hostages, because they don't have access to the rest. Netanyahu would claim--and his apologists would support his claim--that the bombing must continue until all hostages are freed.

Let's go a step further and say that Hamas somehow releases ALL surviving hostages. Everything we know of Netanyahu suggests very strongly that he would either continue the bombing "in retaliation for the innocent Israelis murdered by Hamas terrorists," or--more likely--he would continue "until Hamas no longer poses a threat," a deliberately open-ended deadline that will never arrive.

Do you honestly believe that Netanyahu would end the campaign if the hostages were released? Do you you honestly believe that Hamas has any reason to believe him?

And, when they don't release the hostages, how many dead Palestinian civilians do you consider an acceptable exchange for 134 hostages?


Standing disclaimer, because I've been baselessly accused on DU many times before: Hamas is a terrorist regime and should be wiped out. They have no moral standing in this or any other matter, and their October terrorist attack cannot be justified.

Regardless, thousands of civilians have been killed, and even if we accept the dubious claim that 70% of Palestinians support Hamas in a way that somehow justifies their deaths, that still leaves nearly 10,000 innocent Palestinians dead, according to AP's reported estimate of 33,000 dead.

[agingdem]

215. I suspect the hostages are dead...

why aren't you asking when Hamas will stop and come to the table to negotiate a cease-fire?...Hamas started this war

[Orrex]

220. Because they're a murderous, unrepentant terrorist regime

Why aren't you asking our ally Netanyahu to stop his ongoing slaughter of children?

[oldsoftie]

237. Netanyahu must go. But he's agreed to partial releases before too.

I would think most Israelis know that you can never TOTALLY wipe out Hamas; but you CAN eliminate enough of them to badly weaken their effectiveness. Part of that is getting rid of all those tunnels. Which shouldve never been allowed to be built to begin with. ANOTHER failure on Netanyahu. I dont see any way his Intel people wouldnt know of such a major construction project that was nonstop

And I think he also knows that when this operation ends HE is on the chopping block. STILL dont understand Israeli politics well enough to know how he got BACK into office. But I guess the world could say the same about us if Trump gets back in

[DaBronx]

159. Thank you

This is the painful truth

[claudette]

42. Except

Israel instead of fighting Hamas, is punishing innocent Palestinians who have no military to protect them from the bombing

[Bad Thoughts]

118. IDF fights Hamas on its territory

Armies don't meet in open fields. This is a Modern reality, not a sand and sandal film.

[claudette]

123. ok

make excuses, but if Israel's "intelligence gathering" is so great, WHY can't they use it to find and seek out Hamas instead of bombing everything in sight in Gaza and killing thousands of innocents? I'm done. No more excuses will ever convince me that this is the right thing for Israel to do.

[PufPuf23]

138. Wanton destruction of civilian culture and infrastructure far past meaningful defense is not war. nt

[Bad Thoughts]

149. See my orignal post

War sucks. Achieving necessary security objectives can be costly. Hamas operates in the urban environment. They should surrender. Instead, they are opting for a Wagnerian ending.

[oldsoftie]

162. Look where the tunnel systems are located. Thats where you have to destroy everything.

And as I say in other posts on the topic, Netanyahu must go.

[Voltaire2]

48. war crimes ought to be punished.

[Bad Thoughts]

119. Starting with rape and kidnapping?

[Orrex]

139. Starting with them? Absolutely.

But not ending with them.

[Bad Thoughts]

150. Yes, indeed

[uponit7771]

178. ... and mass starving and using food as a weapon. We expect terrorists to act like terrorists

[beaglelover]

87. Yep. They fucked around and found out.

[PhylliPretzel]

95. This did NOT start on October 7, 2023.

It started in 1948 with the Nakba. History doesn't seem to be a strong suit in America these
days.

[Bad Thoughts]

120. Nakba: Arab nations attack nascent Israel in order to commit ethnic cleansing

The Palestinian movement is just another Lost Cause.

[malaise]

148. THIS

Rec

[uponit7771]

97. So does occupation and oppression

[Bad Thoughts]

121. When were 1000+ killed every month before 10/7?

Why are you distorting history?

[Ray Bruns]

101. This was always going to be a bloodbath.

[BlueMTexpat]

7. I am heartbroken.

Just this!

[Sympthsical]

9. Jew hate isn't protest

And people who keep ignoring and eliding over it are telling us who they are.

[LexVegas]

10. I will say that some people view Hamas as freedom fighters, as crazy as that may sound. nt

[Sympthsical]

14. One thing that always sticks out to me

Is how chill these "Vive la resistance!" types are about Hamas' treatment of Palestinian civilians. Human shields, stealing aid, indoctrinating children to genocidal theocratic fundamentalism, killing anyone who so much as whispers any kind of dissent.

And these extremely comfortable Westerners are just kind of . . . fine with it. Not just fine with it, but they then romanticize the monsters and Orwellingly declare it "anti-oppression"

I can usually grasp most concepts even if I don't agree with them. But this shit just breaks my brain when I try.

[betsuni]

88. Yes.

[SunSeeker]

102. Not just fine with it, they wear their keffiyeh they bought on Amazon and pretend to be one of them.

Because they gotta look cool at those campus protests....

[Earth-shine]

21. I've read that many Gazans view Hamas as the only thing that stands between them and Israeli attacks.

It's the only thing they have to protect them.

Ironically, they seem to have it completely backward.

[claudette]

34. Who is it

that will protect them from Israel’s treatment and set them free to help them have their own land and government?

[Stargazer99]

81. Who started this war? I don't remember the Jews starting the slaughtering in fact just the opposite

[Martin Eden]

22. Hamas had to know how Netanyahu would respond.

It was a desperate gambit by a ruthless terrorist organization. They likely anticipated the slaughter in Gaza would turn much of world opinion against Israel. My guess is the timing of the Oct 7 attack was meant to derail diplomatic accords between Israel and its Arab neighbors, and also to start a regional war that would rally Muslim nations to the Palestinian cause.

Specilation on my part, but I'm convinced Hamas had to know civilians in Gaza would pay a very heavy price.

I support demonstrations against the massive bombing campaign conducted by the Netanyahu government. Nothing justifies the ongoing slaughter of 33,000+ people, so many women and children.

But the protesters should also condemn Hamas, for they are also responsible for what has happened.

[lapfog_1]

218. Hamas leaders readily admit all of this

They not only anticipated the Israeli over the top response, they counted on it... and the deaths of thousands of people in Gaza.

[Martin Eden]

223. If enough Palestinian people realize this, that could be the surest demise of Hamas.

The problem is, the slaughter and trauma may very well recruit the next generation of terrorists intent on destroying Israel.

[revmclaren]

205. When i saw that post i was dumbfounded.

It definitely went into my 'what the f%$k' screen shots.

Unfortunately that this sentiment or something close to it has spread after reading through current anti Israel posts (just a reminder...Netanyahu is NOT the Israeli people and does NOT represent all Jewish people).

What is said on the internet is forever. I think people tend to forget this in their hatred.

[Chainfire]

29. Is supporting the Palestinian people "Jew hate?"

[Sympthsical]

30. You know very well of what I speak

Why pretend otherwise? What is the purpose of the pretense? You see that word "elide" I used? Thank you for the illustration of how it's done.

When these protestors are summoning Holocaust rhetoric, promising a thousand October 7ths, shouting at, harassing, and limiting the movement of Jews, is that protest to you?

Or is that anti-Jewish behavior just supporting Palestinians?

And, again, why the pretense that I am not discussing exactly what I'm discussing?

What political purpose does it serve, that elision?

[Chainfire]

143. They are pissed. Do you not understand why?

Somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 Palestinians have been killed in the "war" most of them women and children. I haven't been following the universtiy protests, so please, tell me how many Jews have been injured or killed in these anti-semetic riots? Then lets talk about who hold the high moral ground.

[DaBronx]

187. I assure you

That the people of Israel are pretty pissed off, much the same way we were after 9/11. Hamas started this war knowing the hell that would rain down.
Next time check the anti semitism at the door with the coat and hat.

[AloeVera]

193. So no one is permitted to support Palestinians

Because that is Jew-hate?

I support Palestinians and abhor this sadistic slaughter and destruction.

Am I an anti-semite too?

All of us speaking out are anti-semites?

[Orrex]

202. The narrative has shifted

Especially in recent days, certain posts have pushed the propagandist notion that, because some percentage of Palestinians are claimed to support Hamas (in a poll taken after Netanyahu's bombing campaign had already begun), all Palestinians are therefore fair game.

This is a significant change indeed, because a week or so ago Netanyahu's apologists were hard-pressed to justify his deliberate slaughter of children. But now, with a wave of a magic propaganda wand, the facts are spun to make even these children, who are allegedly taught to hate all Israelis, deserve whatever happens to them.

A very convenient tactic for dehumanizing an undesirable population, and when that tactic is coupled with endless kneejerk accusations of antisemitism, it makes it increasingly difficult to advocate for innocent civilians.

[AloeVera]

211. It has and it does, indeed

It's what I've been thinking. The demonization was apparent from the beginning but now has taken a really bad turn.

Demonization/othering is the prerequisite for genocide. Couldn't be possible without it, our conscience wouldn't allow it.

But interesting how the narrative's changed from ridiculing accusations of genocide to essentially arguing it is deserved.

It's awful.

Mahalo, Orrex

[claudette]

38. I don't hate Jews

I hate what Israel is doing continuing to do to Palestinians in Gaza

[Sympthsical]

57. Are you pretending that antisemitism hasn't become a problem at these protests?

If you're not, then good job. You are an awesome person against antisemitism.

[claudette]

59. I'm not pretending

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

anything. I believe those who are pro-Israel have no compassion for what their government is doing to innocents in Gaza. I’m not anti-Jew. I am FOR innocent Palestinian who are being punished for Hamas’ crime

[malaise]

133. THIS

Rec

[moniss]

91. Are you pretending that anti-Palestinian views haven't

become a problem in the far right in Israel? In the IDF? Those views have been there since the Irgun etc. and never left. Do we forget about attacks on diplomats, attacks on villages, the King David Hotel etc. by groups supposedly comprised of "people just wanting to live in peace"? Who is hiding behind who? Who is using their people as a shield for commission of aggression and terror? I always find it despicable that people who support Palestinian rights and Israeli rights are attacked as being antisemitic because they find both as having legitimacy.

Screaming about Palestinian textbooks while denying the faults in Israeli textbooks. Just one example.

[claudette]

61. You mean

Protest is NOT Jew hate

[Stargazer99]

80. I am sure the Jews remember the slaughter in World War II-where were you?

[agingdem]

89. I'll tell you where my parents were...Auschwitz!

[agingdem]

86. Yes...my "favorite"...

"I don't hate Jews..I'm anti-Zionist"....Dude, you're an antisemite!

[Cha]

226. Yes these protesters Spread their Sickening Anti-Semitic Ugly Ass Hate All Over the Place.

They think it's "protest" but they Always lash out at the Wrong People.

Link to tweet

“[Izz ad-Din] Al-Qassam [Brigades], make us proud, take another soldier out,” anti-Israel demonstrators chanted on Friday night in a video published on social media by pro-Palestinian activist ThizzL. “We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground. Go Hamas, we love you. We support your rockets too.”

The Gang Rapists Butchers of Hamas Started this SHIT and do NOT Give a Shit about the Palestinians

There goes the Violent "Protesters" don't support Hamas excuse. As If It Hasn't Been Clear Before.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18886956

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[hueymahl]

11. Good thing we just authorized more military aid

We as a nation are complicit in these atrocities.

[LuvLoogie]

13. Netanyahu knew. The IDF knew

For a year they knew what Hamas was planning.

[elias7]

41. Perhaps in the same way we knew, "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US"

But that didn’t prevent the attack either. I don’t think anyone has objective data to support LIHOP/MIHOP, and to suggest otherwise implies implicit bias.

[LuvLoogie]

242. Except that Israel was in possession of a Hamas document that detailed what they were planning.

Not the day of or exact locations, but they had the document for a year prior to the attack. The Israeli head of intelligence is resigning over this failure to act to prevent or mitigate any damage. Couple this with Netanyahu's own policy toward Hamas as a tool to prevent influence of the Palestinian Authority.

If Netanyahu and the IDF were blindsided, it was by their own hubris and general policy toward Palestine.

[TheRickles]

15. Thank you, Malaise. The end doesn't justify the means.

This Passover will be especially tough for many Jews around the world, as we watch descendants of those freed Biblical slaves wreak destruction on an unimaginable scale. Trans-generational PTSD, with the victim becoming the perpetrator.

[VMA131Marine]

79. The historicity of Exodus is highly questionable

There may be elements of truth but it’s not a historical account in the same way that the Genesis creation story and Noah’s are are not history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

[TheRickles]

85. Yes, I know and agree. I was referring more to the mythic and emotional resonance that has taken hold,

from the ahistorical Biblical Exodus to the very historical WWII Holocaust. Victims became perpetrators.

[Oopsie Daisy]

16. Just LOOK what Hamas has done to the Palestinian people! Shame on them!

"History will not be kind..." (I think that's the popular catch-phrase these days.)

[claudette]

33. Except

That is is not Hamas who is bombing innocents

[Oopsie Daisy]

64. Hamas is putting them in harm's way. Hamas is a legitimate target *

* yet they hide among civilians and use innocent people as human shields. This is the fault of Hamas.

Using civilians as human shields is considered a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can be considered a war crime. International humanitarian law, which includes the Geneva Conventions and other treaties, provides protections for civilians during armed conflicts. Deliberately using civilians as human shields involves placing them in harm's way to deter an adversary from attacking or to shield military targets from being attacked.

The intentional use of civilians as human shields is expressly prohibited. It undermines the principle of distinction, endangers the lives of innocent people, and violates their rights to protection and dignity.

The use of human shields is condemned by the international community, and those who engage in such practices may be held accountable for war crimes or other serious violations of international law.

[Stargazer99]

82. Finally the voice of reason instead of emotional response only

[Hieronymus Phact]

90. Hamas REGULARLY bombs innocents.

Where have you been?

[Oopsie Daisy]

126. There are many who believe the Hamas propaganda (and who also repeat it in various political forums.)

[uponit7771]

98. Hamas isn't starving people The Chef said Bibi is and Chef has more credibility

[Oopsie Daisy]

125. Yes, they are. Through their cowardly efforts of blending-in with civilians *

* and hiding themselves and their supplies and centers of operation among civilian targets, they have WIDENED the war so that innocent people are affected. This includes food and medical care. Hamas are the reason that these things have been in short supply. Blame Hamas. This is their war. They can end it, but they won't. Why?

[uponit7771]

177. The Chef is more credible than the IDF and Bibi

[Oopsie Daisy]

180. Sure. Go with that.

[uponit7771]

181. Facts and reality have benefits

[Oopsie Daisy]

182. Keep searching...

... Never trust the "facts" or "reality" being served up by Hamas.

[Cha]

229. Hamas is Starving Palestinas.. I just posted this.. Fatah Confirms it..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18890369

[Cha]

228. YES HAMAS IS Starving Palestinians.. Hamas is NOT Clean.. They're Fucking Terrorists.

Fatah: Hamas Kills Aid workers and Steals Food for Itself

In an incredible and rare admission, Fatah has corroborated what Israel has been saying all along: that Hamas is responsible for turmoil connected to distribution of the humanitarian aid sent into Gaza. A Fatah TV anchor reported that throughout the war, Hamas has been committing what is essentially a triple crime—it has attacked and killed aid workers in order to control aid distribution, stolen the food and water for itself, and caused food prices to skyrocket.

Snip****

it began from the start of the war (i.e., 2023 Gaza war), as Hamas persecuted well-known figures and teams of volunteers on the ground in mid-October [2023]. It attacked them and killed some of them for two reasons: Firstly, preventing any activity by any [other] party in the Gaza Strip; and secondly, ensuring Hamas control over the aid and its storage, which of course leads to these crazy and unreal prices that no one can pay in the shadow of this destruction. After the occupation (i.e., Israel) bombed storehouses controlled by Hamas, the accumulation of tons of various food and aid products that Hamas had taken exclusivity over became clear, at a time when the Gaza Strip is suffering from hunger.”

https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/fatah-hamas-kills-aid-workers-and-steals-food-for-itself/2024/04/22/

[twodogsbarking]

18. Peace is not a goal.

[Happy Hoosier]

24. Certainly it isn;t for Hamas. Never was. NT

[Oopsie Daisy]

28. And this is why Hamas must be destroyed. They have no interest in peace.

[iemanja]

246. The IDF is actively working to destroy all of Gaza, not Hamas

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 08:42 PM - Edit history (1)

whose leadership, as we are frequently reminded on this board, is based in Qatar. Yet the IDF isn't bombing Qatar but rather is focused on wiping Gaza off the face of the map. Look at the photos in this post: https://democraticunderground.com/100218887092#post12

That is the level of destruction so far, yet you call for more. The result of the war has been the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, and Israel knows full well that Hamas leadership and fighters are only a fraction of those killed. They are executing their goals exactly as planned.

[et tu]

43. not for bibi-

he wants to rule only on his terms, and war makes it happen
for him to rule on and on. never mind the human consequences~

[twodogsbarking]

51. Not even at DU.

[Autumn]

53. Peace would involve a two state solution. Something that Netanyahu and Hamas will never allow.

Hamas and Netanyahu are partners.

[LiberalArkie]

19. Is this now allowed to be said here?

I am with you.. And have been. Ever since Netanyahu said that all Hamas will be eliminated and followed by the statement that all that live in Gaza is Hamas.

[claudette]

32. Why wouldn't it be?

[TwilightZone]

60. When was it ever disallowed?

I'm not sure what you think has been disallowed, but posts like this certainly haven't been. There has been similar rhetoric posted here on a daily basis for months.

Some posters have gone much further, including calling Hamas "freedom fighters" and equating them to Nelson Mandela. If bullshit assertions like those are left to stand, I don't see why this wouldn't be.

[whathehell]

108. Despite the allegations on this thread, I've

yet to see ONE post on this board referring to Hamas as "freedom fighters" or equating them to Nelson Mandella.

Can you provide ANY examples ?

[LiberalArkie]

124. I sure haven't said any thing like that

[revmclaren]

206. Go back through my replies/posts.

You'll find a screen shot of it.

Try a DU search...You'll find it.

You're welcome.

[whathehell]

219. How about you providing it

instead of expecting me to "go through" your posts in search of it?

The burden of proof is incumbent upon the party MAKING the allegations, not not the one questioning them.

You're welcome.

[revmclaren]

221. You could try ...hamas freedom fighters democraticunderground.com

No more hints...

[whathehell]

222. Lol...You got nothing.

[revmclaren]

224. Well, another words you didn't look.

I really don't care.

It's there.

But now others have gone to look. Thank you.

[whathehell]

231. Well, "another" words, lol, I didn't need to..

since it's you who's failed to substantiate your own claim. Bye now.

[TeamProg]

27. If justice prevails, history will not be kind. nt

[claudette]

31. I'm with you

I do not support what Israel is doing in Gaza and West Bank. Protesters are not FOR Hamas. We are AGAINST the murder of innocents in Gaza. Period. This has to end. There is NO justification for this.

[former9thward]

46. The protesters I see are for Hamas.

[sarisataka]

52. "Protesters are not FOR Hamas" I must inform you, your belief is incorrect.

I will not claim 100% are for Hamas but a large percentage, perhaps even a majority, are clearly making it known they are completely supportive of Hamas and its actions.

[claudette]

58. No

I’m not incorrect. That’s my opinion. Yours is yours. All those protesting I know are FOR the Palestinians in Gaza who are being killed for what Hamas did on 10/7.

[sarisataka]

63. In order to see, one must choose to look

Calls for violence and terrorism at the Columbia University encampment protests continued to surface on Sunday in footage published by pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian activists.

“[Izz ad-Din] Al-Qassam [Brigades], make us proud, take another soldier out,” anti-Israel demonstrators chanted on Friday night in a video published on social media by pro-Palestinian activist ThizzL. “We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground. Go Hamas, we love you. We support your rockets too.”

On Wednesday, in another video published by ThizzL, activists called for Hamas's military wing to "kill another soldier now."

During a speech live streamed by the Palestine Solidarity Working Group on Saturday night, a protest leader said in a speech, "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the global intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian freedom fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18886956

Link to tweet

Just one of many...
Note, posted by pro-Palestinian protesters.

[TwilightZone]

69. Opinions are not facts.

Post #46 is a direct refutation of your assertion.

People see what they want to see and ignore what doesn't fit their own personal narrative. Nowhere has that become more clear than in the Israel/Hamas conflict.

[sarisataka]

36. We definitely need to react

by driving Jewish students out of US universities


Why are Jews being targeted for actions of Israel?

[Codifer]

45. Please do not omit mention of

the Prime Mover, PUTIN.

He directed Hamas to make the raid and rape and murder as vile as possible so that Netanyahu could have the backing needed to be as extreme as possible in his clearance and relocation. Of course there would be required a massive failure of Israeli intelligence. (When has that ever happened?)

As a bonus, putin gets the division in thought in the United States which never is good in an election year.

It is working for him as planned. The division is bad for Joe and, if tsf is elected, putin gets Europe.

Time to do a crossword.

[TBF]

67. Absolutely - Putin has been playing chess and I'm sure is behind Hamas funding

even if they filter it through Qatar or Iran.

I don't envy Joe Biden his job right now, he is walking quite a tight rope because I don't think any of these details are lost on him.

[JCMach1]

49. What happens when Hamas callously decides to sacrifice their own people

To try to start a wider Middle East War...

Also, what happens when a leader (Netanyahu) is a right-wing callous shit gibbon who led such an incompetent government that led directly to the devastating attacks in the first place.

Meanwhile, I don't see Egypt, KSA, or Jordan taking in refugees...

So tell me, which of this AM I supposed to protest precisely?

[Mountainguy]

50. Gaza picked a fight

And now they have it.

They have been wanting this war for 80 years and have tried several times to make it happen. Now it has.

[obamanut2012]

68. Gaza didn't pick a fight -- wtf

"Gaza" didn't do a thing.

[Mountainguy]

129. So gaza exists ina vaccum from Hamas?

They just elected them, held them in power, support them, and joined in on the "fun".

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

[Think. Again.]

154. Nope, not true...

From March 21, 2024, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183

"Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute."

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

[uponit7771]

99. This is false on its face

[Mountainguy]

132. Its not

You can pretend gazans and hamas are different if you want, but you're turning a blind eye to the reality there.

[uponit7771]

175. Same goes for KKK and Americans? Dehumanizing people with broad negative generalizations isn't progressive

[Mountainguy]

183. Guess i missed the part where the KKK was in control of government for a few decades

Maybe you think German society had no blame for nazism.

[uponit7771]

253. Woodrow Wilson?!?!?!!?!

[TBF]

54. It is day 200 - any sympathy for hostages being held? That's a rhetorical question.

FWIW, I don't agree with what has been done in Gaza, and I would like to see Netanyahu resign. I don't agree with his extremism or tactics. I certainly don't agree with the absolute assault on innocent Palestinians and I favor a 2 state solution of some sort. Palestinians deserve their own country just as Israelis do, imo.

But we also have forgotten that this would end (or should end, who knows w/Bibi) with the release of the hostages. Hamas refuses. How do you think the US would react if we were in a similar position with innocent Americans being held hostage?

[uponit7771]

100. Is IDF still shooting them as they surrender?

[moniss]

145. I have absolute sympathy for the hostages.

Including the Palestinian ones in the West Bank who get grabbed off the streets and from their houses and held without charge for long periods supposedly for "administrative detention" every time Bibi wants to play the bully or every time he wants to show the radical right what he will do.

Now being beaten to death inside prison by Israeli guards who, along with Israeli prison authorities claim they have no idea how so many have been dying from beatings while in custody.

I have sympathy for the people in all the camps and for Israeli citizens who all are subjected to propaganda from groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Likud, La Familia and the supporters of Beitar and all such others who poison the minds of people and the lands all live upon.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68780112

[TBF]

158. Yes I referenced a 2-state solution for a reason -

I am not making any apologies for Netanyahu and his extremist government. I know that you are correct with that assessment and I would like both Palestine and Israel to be two distinct entities with self rule. Things were obviously not perfect before Oct 7 - these tensions (a tame word obviously) have been a problem as long as I can remember and that is multiple decades ...

[hay rick]

55. Their actions are delegitimizing Israel in the eyes of much of the world.

[onecaliberal]

74. Be very careful. 3 words got a hide yesterday.

People suck, especially the ones who think this is okay because they can watch from afar and call balls and strikes. It’s not their kids or anyone they know. This is sickening on another level.

[enid602]

103. Me too

Me too. Yesterday. Can't say more.

[betsuni]

76. "[Hamas] had to have factored in from the start that Gaza City above them would be leveled by the Israelis. So be it.

Hamas's premise for war both accepted and approved of the fact that civilians would be sacrificed in horrific numbers. It was also an integral part of the war plan to use the dead bodies as a strategic weapon against Israel." -- Malcolm Nance

[BannonsLiver]

77. Oh. Ok.

Thanks for the update.

[Goddessartist]

83. I agree with you 100%

And this: ‘We’re not like the Nazis’: Netanyahu reportedly bickered with German FM over ‘famine’ in Gaza

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/were-not-like-the-nazis-netanyahu-reportedly-bickered-with-german-fm-over-famine-in-gaza/


snip

The report comes as photos circulating on social media show stocked market stalls and Gazans enjoying a hot day on the beach, after the Israel Defense Forces withdrew all of its maneuvering ground forces from the Strip two weeks ago, prompting displaced Palestinians to attempt to return to their homes.

Baerbock reportedly recommended that Israel stop circulating the photos of life supposedly returning to normal in the Palestinian enclave “as they don’t portray the real situation in Gaza. There is hunger in Gaza.”

At this point, Netanyahu is said to have raised his voice and insisted, “It’s real. It’s reality. It’s not like what the Nazis staged, we’re not like the Nazis who produced fake images of a manufactured reality.”

According to the Channel 13 report, the German foreign minister responded, “Are you saying that our doctors in the field in Gaza aren’t telling the truth? Are you saying that the international media is lying?”

[Passages]

92. Stands out. Our youth is the worlds hope.

Link to tweet

[malaise]

172. Proud of all,the young people

There is hope

[onecaliberal]

179. They are being killed at an alarming rate.

[ananda]

94. To quote loosely: Beware of slaying monsters, lest you become one.

Sort of Nietzsche

[spanone]

96. K&R

[Marcuse]

112. Deuteronomy provides motivation for genocide. Compromise in a religious war is blasphemy, in Canaan or in Congress.

7:1 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

20:10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

[Cthulu on call]

115. So Hamas is 100% responsible

for the reaction and actions of the Israeli Military and its theocratic government headed by King Netanyahu, is an utter delusion.

This ethnic cleansing and genocide is the plan. Face it Isreal like many other nations is no longer a democracy nor is it justified in its actions of killing 33k and destroying the homes, work, forcing them out.
I'm sick of excuses made by others defending every genocidal action by a much stronger power.

[Initech]

117. I am 100% against ethnic cleansing, genocide and other war crimes.

[BannonsLiver]

131. Fair enough.

In that case, Who do you think you’ll be voting for in November?

[Sky Jewels]

153. This is utterly unforgivable. Israel has made itself into the world's pariah.

It will never, ever wash away this giant bloodstain on its history.

Netanyahu and his band of criminals have fucked over the non-genocidal Israelis for decades.

[AZ8theist]

157. While I don't disagree with your assessment.....

I believe RUSSIA occupies that #1 position.

Israel may be #2, but they are FAR being the decades of atrocities carried out by Russia against the free world as well as their own citizens.

[LeftInTX]

155. Yet, Hamas is still bombing Israel. I don't know where they are getting their rockets from. Six rockets on Apr 23

IDF: 2 rockets fired at south Israel; one intercepted while other falls short within Gaza
By EMANUEL FABIAN FOLLOW
Today, 1:22 pm

Two rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip at southern Israel a short while ago. The attack set off sirens in the border community of Zikim.

According to the IDF, one rocket was intercepted by the Iron Dome, while the second failed to cross the border.

It marks the second rocket attack from Gaza today, after four projectiles were fired at Sderot this morning.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-2-rockets-fired-at-south-israel-one-intercepted-while-other-falls-short-within-gaza/

[Evolve Dammit]

170. Agreed Malaise.

[Passages]

171. Significant:

Link to tweet

[malaise]

173. This is huge

Rec

[Passages]

174. Yes.

[Aussie105]

176. I'm done with threads like this.

Sick of the not caring, sick of the 'they started it' mentality.

[Catherine Vincent]

186. Horrible

How long will this go on? ☹️

[onecaliberal]

233. Immoral and soulless.

[betsuni]

234. Yes, radical religious fundamentalist Hamas terrorist are immoral and soulless.

[Orrex]

249. Indeed they are, and wholly deserving of whatever befalls them

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Of course, that has little to do with Netanyahu deliberately bombing Gaza flat and slaughtering thousands of children.

[betsuni]

250. Yes, it does. This was the Hamas war plan.

http://malcolmnance.substack.com/p/hamas-needs-children-to-die

[Orrex]

251. Is Netanyahu aware that he's working toward Hamas' goals, then?

Though I obviously have no expertise to match Nance's, it's curious that the article's opening line is framed as a quote by Hamas with no attribution. It would be useful to know if this was Nance's summary of his assessment or an actual statement by Hamas.

For that matter, the article offers several other statements as fact without source or attribution. Is it a formal analysis or an opinion piece?


Regardless, this is all the more reason that Netanyahu should immediately end his campaign of deliberate slaughter.

[Martin68]

197. I think rather than "burnt to the ground" adjectives like "demolished," "pulverized," and "annihalated" more accurately

describe the merciless destruction the Israelis have inflicted. Burning does not reduce concrete apartment buildings to rubble.

[bdamomma]

209. Israelis

want Netanyahu out, they are protesting him. He wants to stay out of jail. hmmm.... sounds familiar. Plus you don't hear anything about the hostages huh???? He's, their tRump. POS needs to go. Keeps on killing civilians saying Hammas is embedding themselves with the Palestinians.

That's his talking point or how he is rationalizing killing defenseless people.

[Passages]

245. Speaker Johnson's departure from Columbia University.

Link to tweet

On point.