General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn Left-Right politics, where do libertarians fit?
Overall would they be considered more left-leaning, right-leaning, or centrist? It has been confusing to me because they seem to have stances from both sides. From the left side, libertarians claim to support personal freedom, non-interventionalist foreign policy, civil liberties and privacy, secularism, and oppose corporate welfare. And from the right, they support trickle-down, property rights, they oppose gun control, and they say they value individualism.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)confuse the hell out of me. Pick a side, any side.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)fiscally right wing. In practice most of them are straight up right wingers. It's mostly indifference to social issues (Other than weed or prostitution sometimes) and being hardline right wingers ranting and raving about fiscal ones.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)I support the expanded freedoms they espouse. The end of the drug war and legalization of all the drugs is but one area which I agree with them on. Their positions roughly come down to personal responsibility. For example, regarding the drugs, if you wish to take them, don't blame anyone else if you overdose, and don't expect anyone to hire you for a job in which you would be impaired by the taking of the drugs. I like their ideas of the military, a small military, based here in the United States, not tens of thousands of troops occupying "allied" countries. I disagree with them on the role of the Federal Government. They want a very small Federal Government, almost miniscule, and no Federal Social programs. Again, they feel you are directly responsible for yourself which is asinine, nobody can do it alone.
In the end, they're a fringe party, about the same standing as the Green's in politics. Yet, in some instances, they can be allies, and in others, opponents. They take personal liberty too far, there being an obvious need for some equalization.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,713 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)Vincardog
(20,234 posts)Ganja Ninja
(15,953 posts)I my opinion they are Republicans that want to pretend they aren't like the rest of the sheep.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)That is all.
we can do it
(12,182 posts)PD Turk
(1,289 posts)I know quite a few people that identify themselves as libertarian or Libertarian. The ones I know that are the "big L" Libertarian party members claim to be for socially liberal ideals but that all generally gets thrown under the bus when it comes to fiscal issues,they are "my money" first and foremost.
I'm friends with a couple who describes themselves as "libertarian" (small l) and they both voted a straight Dem ticket in '08 and this time around too. The wife was frightened to death of what she called the "christian right womb police". She said "if it comes down to money or personal freedom, take the damn money just leave my personal life alone".
All of them though, seem to be rather naive about how an economy of the scale we have in a nation of 300 million+ people needs to work. It's all some magic fairy dust thing to them that somehow should work itself out if it were just left alone.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)Just as you basically spelled it out in the OP. They are a mixture of both left and right politics. Here is what I found on the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian organization, after doing a quick search. This is how they describe themselves:
How to Label Cato
Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.
"Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" fails to capture the contemporary vibrancy of the ideas of freedom.
"Liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina tend to be supporters of human rights and free markets but its meaning has clearly been altered in the contemporary United States.
The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.
This vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, recognizing that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is or used to be the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is cumbersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress.
Libertarians have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We applaud the progressive extension of the promises of the Declaration of Independence to more people, especially to women, African-Americans, religious minorities, and gay and lesbian people. Our greatest challenge today is to continue to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.
http://www.cato.org/about-mission.html
So it is hard to classify them it seems to me, and so there are a lot of easy reflex reactions to them, because they are a weird duck, basically.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)A bunch of laissez-fail, disaster corporatist, free-market fellating wingnuts, that's how. Ever hear any of them talk on CNBC? There isn't a hypercapitalist policy they won't trip over themselves to defend.
And their definition of "liberal" seems to be far more, shall we say, "fringe" than what I'm used to hearing. I don't recall any "liberal" championing the steamrolling of the elderly, students, organized labor and the benefits they rely on and pay into to continue "Winner Kill All" Capitalism.
These regressives AREN'T our allies by any means.
Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)as well, so libertarians or anti-authoritarianism can be all along the scale.
I have also seen libertarians listed at the top of some graphs with authoritarians listed at the bottom of others, but the point being politics has at least 4 dimensions, and maybe 5 as in the graph below.
I believe the corporate media would prefer for the American People to think of politics as having just 2 dimensions primarily because corporations in general are authoritarian by nature thus it's easier for the corporate media to demonize liberalism or (one opposing dimension) and keep corporate friendly authoritarians in power versus covering/facing a more accurate and multi-dimensional political world.
In short it becomes easier for the corporate media to use their propaganda to manipulate a dumbed down populace; that only thinks of the political world as being left/right.
Thanks for the thread, Jamaal.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)such as drug legalization (especially marijuana), what consenting adults do or read or view in private, restraining the police and guaranteeing the rights of press, speech and assembly to name but a few big issues.
I am also a democratic socialist on economic issues. Economic "freedom" does not include the "freedom" to subjugate your fellow human beings and the planet itself. I suspect I am not alone here on DU.
Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)and I also suspect we're not alone.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)They pretty much only talk about paying less taxes and for upper income earners to have more "take-home pay". I have never heard them discuss what I personally refer to as spending freedom. Fiscal conservatives generally oppose Social Security and welfare, right? Yet these are programs that put more money in the pockets of working class Americans. As a result of them, working class Americans are "free" to buy more things. Maybe my logic is twisted, but that's just something I noticed.
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)To make their shitty economic policies taste less shitty.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Like Thom Hartmann says ~
"Libertarians are republicans who want to smoke dope and get laid"
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)upthread. Perfect!
Response to Jamaal510 (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)smoke pot and have sex.
union_maid
(3,502 posts)Their social views will more often align with the left, except probably on issues like gun control. Their fiscal views would be way to the right. Basically it's all about more freedom, but less protection for the vulnerable. Most of us are vulnerable in some way or other.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)pnwmom
(108,976 posts)The 1% doesn't care which flavor you choose, as long as you're on their side of the economic divide.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)NoPasaran
(17,291 posts)Pretty much zero points of intersection with the Plane of Reality.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)they like the radical free market capitalism of neo-liberalism. It's ugly stuff and hurts everyone but the very rich.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)NashvilleLefty
(811 posts)They do a good job of explaining that in terms of why they use a graph instead of a straight line.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Think of it more in quadrants.
Imagine a vertical line. On the left side is liberal, and on the right side is conservative. Now make a horizontal line that splits the vertical line in half. On the top half you have authoritarian. And the bottom half you have libertarian.
Here is a chart like this from http://www.politicalcompass.org :
You can take a test on their website that pinpoints where you are on this graph...
[img][/img]
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)I know lots of neo-con dumbfucks who call themselves libertarians. I consider myself a left libertarian.
tjwash
(8,219 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)The two-axis one that gets bandied about a lot makes a lot more sense.
That said, most libertarians I know are very militarist..
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)by ideological accident, they just don't want a Federal government of a scope capable of enforcing drug laws, meddling in bedrooms, or engaging in military adventures. They are typically fine if some corporation does the exact same things like they might oppose a US attack on Iran but would be fine with a gaggle of companies hiring mercenaries to do the same thing.
Little "l" is more anti-authoritarian, regardless of the power is held by government, corporations, or individuals.
It isn't a simple answer since one can be a civil libertarian (focused on individual rights and protections), a social libertarian will be into individual freedoms and self determination, or they may fall into the fiscal libertarian arena which I consider right wing putting the individual profit motive and desires over societal needs, essentially that the needs or even wants of the one outweigh the needs of the many and each person is an island.