Your church is not one of them.

[onecaliberal]

Tax the church.

[Stardust Mirror]

1. What rationale is there not to tax the churches?

they use public resources, roads, police, fire departments, courts, bridges, water treatment etc etc so pay your share

to the extent that they do charitable work apply and qualify for non-profit status like real charities, if necessary split the organization into religious and charitable ones to keep the boundaries clear and clearly adhered to

if churches were taxed that would take away most of their attraction for grifters and conmen, leaving child molestation as one of their few remaining attractions

[Irish_Dem]

4. They are also interfering in the operation of our gov't.

They need to be taxed.

[Initech]

23. Nazi MAGA shithead Jack Hibbs admitted he was instrumental in flipping the Chino Hills school board.

For that, not only can he go get royally fucked, but he should be taxed the absolute shit out of.

[Irish_Dem]

25. They are no longer churches, they are political operatives.

[Initech]

26. For sure!

Any church that tells you who to vote and props up candidates for is not a church.

[Irish_Dem]

29. People don't want to follow church dogma, so the church leaders make it the law

via buying politicians.

They are admitting their churches are failures.
People won't voluntarily follow their doctrine.
They have to cram it down out throats via making laws.

[Stardust Mirror]

39. no true Scotsman nt

[dchill]

28. When were they not?

[Irish_Dem]

41. Back in the day, I don't remember priests and nuns lecturing people

about who to vote for.

[demosincebirth]

44. They still don't.

[soldierant]

40. That is absolutely true, and it is why the rationale - and there was one - no loger holds.

The rationale was that they functioned as a NGO, if only for their own, but still doing sme things so the government didn't have to. Caring for widows and orphans. Housing the homeless.. Feeding the hungry. Healig the sick. You know, all that ttuff that jesus and Mohammed and Moses and Confucius and Lao tse and all the rest commended.

[Irish_Dem]

42. They said screw that, let's go for money and power.

[OnlinePoker]

6. The belief is (was?) they did more good through their charity than would be generated in tax revenue

This, of course, is assuming they do anything charitable at all. Those mega-churches don't build themselves, you know.

[wnylib]

7. The rationale is that they are nonprofit organizations.

But political and mega churches don't fit that description.

Like other non profits, they attract their share of grifters looking to get rich by fleecing the flock.

I know some traditional churches that do a lot of charitable work - giving away food and clothing, acting as shelters in summer heat waves and winter storms, donating money and hygiene items to homeless shelters, sponsoring refugees, establishing safe houses for women and children fleeing domestic violence, tutoring children who need help in schoolwork, raising funds for disaster relief. I know that they do those things because I have worked as a volunteer with a few of them.

[AllaN01Bear]

8. thanks . i was going to post something on this line , but the last time i did it i got yelled at.

[wnylib]

9. I've noticed that the harshest criticism of churches

not doing anything but getting rich from untaxed donations comes from people who have no clue what many churches do. They reject religion so they do not associate with any church community programs, not even as an outsider volunteering to help people who need it. They make claims about church money without knowing how church budgets operate to split donations among programs that serve people in the community.

I've been told that church charities are useless because government programs handle the needs of citizens better. Yet, churches end up helping people who fall between the gaps in programs, and supplementing programs that don't give enough to cover all needs. I've been told that churches require people to accept their beliefs in order to get aid, but none of the churches that I've volunteered at do that.

There definitely are some churches that are run by leaders who use religion to promote politics or their own pocketbooks. But it is false to claim that all churches operate that way.

[Stardust Mirror]

10. did you miss this part?

from my post: "to the extent that they do charitable work apply and qualify for non-profit status like real charities, if necessary split the organization into religious and charitable ones to keep the boundaries clear and clearly adhered to"

hey OK I robbed the bank but I gave a beggar on the street a fiver on the way out - I'm charitable!

[yellowdogintexas]

12. my church split our two major charities into separate 503C non profits

The mission feeds homeless sack lunches on weekdays, operates a food bank, some clothing, and puts together start up supplies for those who are transitioning out of homelessness. We also distribute infant formula to moms who qualify for WIC but have to wait for an effective date.

The Justice Ministry provides legal services for abused women who are poverty stricken and/or undocumented. It works with Tarrant County Women's Center and other service groups in the area.

There are of course other services which are not separated out; it was just better to have these two under their own non profit status. The main entity is a non profit.

Our church practices no politics from the pulpit, and we do not allow any political group to use our facilities. Acknowledging the presence of a sitting member of Congress or Texas Lege who is visiting our church is about as far as it goes. That does not happen very often.

[Stardust Mirror]

13. cool

another good thing about churches having to apply and qualify for non-profit status would be that they'd have to have open books, if I'm not mistaken

[wnylib]

36. The finances of the churches that I know are not secret.

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2024, 07:56 AM - Edit history (1)

But, I have nothing against financial rules or laws for non profits that would cut back on frauds. There is already a legal provision for revoking a church's non profit status if it becomes openly political in endorsing candidates. But, as we see with RW Trump supporting churches, when a church supports a party or candidate who is powerful or has powerful, rich backers, the law does not get enforced.

There is a problem with non religious non profits, too, that spend over 50 cents of every dollar donated on salaries and perqs for their administrators.

Way back in the early 1970s, when I was much younger, a friend's mother told me about a bad experience that she had with the Red Cross after her Ohio town had been nearly demolished by a tornado. Donations in money and goods had been sent to the Red Cross for disaster relief. But she said that the Red Cross set up tables where survivors had to pay for the donated items, sometimes at higher than market prices.

Meantime, the Salvation Army showed up with donated food and with blankets and tents that were either donated or bought from donated money. They gave them out freely, no charge. SA volunteers helped people set up the tents, prepare food, and search for people not yet accounted for.

In 1985, a huge supercell system spawned 44 tornadoes over a 10 hour period, from Ohio through Pennsylvania to NY and southern Ontario, Canada. They ranged in strength from F1 to F5. 90 deaths and almost 900 injuries. When it was over, before first responders could reach remote small villages, caravans of PA Amish buggies arrived with food, blankets, and first aid. Some stayed to help clear debris and find missing persons. When areas were cleared, they came back with lumber and tools to help rebuild.

I could never live an Amish lifestyle or accept many of their beliefs and customs. But, it is also a cornerstone of their beliefs that they are obligated to help anyone in need. I've gotta respect that part of their beliefs. I can't condemn the good things that some people do even when I disagree with them about almost everything else.

I always donate to Salvation Army fundraising drives, even though I could never accept some of their beliefs. And, at our local summer farmer's market, I always buy most of my produce from an Amish booth because the quality is good and the prices are lower than other vendors. (I avoid their baked goods because they use lard.)

[wnylib]

37. Here is a link that describes the IRS criteria for

non profit status for religious organizations.

https://www.score.org/resource/article/religious-nonprofit-organizations-and-churches#:~:text=The%20IRS%20automatically%20recognizes%20churches,the%20option%20to%20do%20so).

[Stardust Mirror]

38. from your link:

" The IRS automatically recognizes churches as 501(c) (3) charitable organizations if they meet the IRS requirements. There is no need for churches to seek formal recognition from the IRS or submit annual information returns (though they have the option to do so)."

(emphasis added)

[wnylib]

24. Thank you for describing the work that your church does.

I know that there are many such churches around the country.

[wnylib]

16. No, I did not miss any part of your post.

That suggestion sounds good on the surface, but misses a few things about how most churches operate. It assumes that they are a profit making enterprise that should be taxed on their income, with an exception for charitable work which would operate separately from the religious services. But, aside from the obvious grifters who use religion for themselves, churches are not profit making businesses. What would a tax be based on? The donations of parishioners? Also, the facilities used for religion and those used for charity overlap to a point that it would be exorbitantly expensive and not feasible to separate them. More on that later.

Churches already have budgets with separate categories for maintenance, salaries of employees, electricity, gas, water, miscellaneous expenses, and charities. The charities are further subdivided according to external programs that they support, i.e. food banks and homeless shelters, and internal programs like tutoring children, preparing meals for homeless and needy people. The prepared food is donated and prepared by volunteers. It's not a profit making restaurant or catering service.

Salaried empoyees are the pastor, organist, secretary, and maintenance person in many churches. But in small ones some of those positions are often voluntary.
Some churches run day care programs for infants and toddlers, so there are teachers/caretakers to pay. Money for salaries and equipment for the day cares comes from parents who can afford to pay. Some parents can't afford it so church donations and fundraisers make up the difference. Church day care centers have to meet all government regulations and inspections, of course.

Here's the problem with trying to separate religious activities from charity. Most churches have a kitchen and an attached fellowship hall. The kitchens usually have a large oven with stovetop burners, a refrigerator and freezer, pots, pans, a large set (or multiple sets) of dishes and flatware, various cooking utensils, and a dishwasher. Depending on the size of the congregation, it might be a restaurant type industrial dishwasher.

The fellowship hall might be used on Sunday morning for adult Bible study, with coffee and snacks from the kitchen. But during the week, the fellowship hall is used as a cooling shelter during heat waves, or a heated shelter during blizzards and deep freezes. It can be used on a Sunday morning or weekday evening for a dinner or reception (with coffee and snacks from the kitchen) to welcome a new pastor, or for a social event for the church's youth group. But on other occasions, it is used for a fundraising dinner, open to both the congregation and general public, with a fee for the dinner. But the funds are being raised to donate to a domestic violence shelter, or to a rehab facility for addictions, or to provide local police with equipment and training to use Naloxone for opioid victims.

So the kitchen and fellowship room are used for religious activities AND charities. The food for meals and snacks is either donated by church members or bought from the appropriate budget category. Meal preparation, servibg, and cleanup are done by volunteers for religious and for charity functions. Surely you would not suggest that there be two separate, fully equipped kitchens and fellowship halls.

Sometimes a church member will bequeath a specified amount to the church for a specific purchase, like a new refrigerator to replace an old run down one. Should that be taxed since the new fridge will be used for religious AND charity functions?

Except for salaried employees, all work done in the church for running the Sunday School, singing in the choir, ushering people to seats, providing flowers for the altar, taking the youth group on outings, is done by church member volunteers. Raising charity donations, preparing and distributing donated food, delivering clothing and toiletries to various shelters, etc. is also done by volunteer church members or non members who just want to support worthy causes.

Should the volunteer work be counted as taxable income based on the value of the work done ? Should the donated food, clothing, and toiletries be taxed for their money value as "income?"

[Stardust Mirror]

17. how about churches being required to have open books?

Because right now all claims of how churches are using their money are just that, only claims

[wnylib]

18. I don't know what churches you are thinking about,

or what ones you might be familiar with (I suspect none), but of the 3 denominations that I'm personally familiar with, the budgets are not secret. Once a year they are printed up in a pamphlet for the parishioners to review. Anyone, whether a member or not, can request a copy of the budget or raise questions about it.

The congregation holds a meeting to discuss shortfalls in covering expenses. Or, more rarely, if expenses have been lower than expected and there's money left at the end of the fiscal year, they discuss whether to hold it in case of unexpected future expenses, donate it to one of their regular charities, give it as a one time gift to a new charity, put it toward updating materials and equipment in the day care, etc. Options are nominated, discussed, and voted on.

Such fiscal meetings are open to the entire congregation and anyone else who attends. They are usually scheduled for after a Sunday service, but can be held at another time, i.e. a Wednesday evening. Churches prefer the Sunday after service time when most people are present. I have even been to a church where a meeting was held as part of the service in place of the sermon, with a separate follow up meeting to go into more depth.. Date and time of the financial meeting is announcrd two or more weeks in advance.

If there are a lot of things to discuss, follow up meetings are scheduled. Most churches have committees, guilds, or " circles" (the terminology varies by denomination) assigned to specific tasks in the church (charities, youth group advisors, education, etc.). A nominated option might be assigned to one of those groups to look into it further and report back for a vote.

You seem to be operating on an assumption that all churches are get rich quick schemes with secretive hoards of money (from where?) that are going into someone's (whose?) pockets. That might be true of mega churches on TV and publicity hound ministers who beg for money from TV and radio audiences for "worthy causes" that don't exist while the pastors own private jets, 3 houses, and a beachfront condo in Hawaii. But that is not true of the average, everyday church serving local communities.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church. My father was an elected member of the church council. My mother taught Sunday School and sang in the choir. They were, with another couple, advisors for the youth group. So I learned a lot about how the church operates. My husband and I moved several times for his job and we attended other liberal churches frequently, i.e. Presbyterian and Episcopal. I have helped in community outreach programs as a volunteer at churches where I was not a member. I have relatives who belong to various denominations and have seen that there are many similarities in how they operate with regard to finances.

I don't know what kind of gold mine you expect to find in churches for taxation, but I suspect that your concern is based more on personal antagonism toward religion in general than on money to be gained from taxing non profit organizations.

Not every minister is a Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, or Billy Graham, using religion for politics, money, or fame Not every minister or priest is molesting children, and not all churches try to cover up abuse when it is reported. The 3 denominations that I am most familiar with have rigorous background checks and monitored internships before a pastor is even ordained. Any inappropriateness is grounds for dismissal/defrocking and is reported to police if it involves a crime like abusing children physically, psychologically, or sexually. They also do background checks on volunteers who work with children. When I was a volunteer at one Lutheran Church's community outreach program with adults, I applied to be a volunteer Big Sister for a little girl who was in another program at the church. I had to take a standardized pychological exam which was sent out for professional evaluation, go through a police background check, have a personal interview with the program's director, have a home visit by the director, and provide 4 written references from people in professional positions who were not friends or relatives. Only after I successfully completed all the requirements was I assigned to the child.

I know that it is hard for skeptics to believe it, but there really are more people than you might think who actually do believe in "good works" without financial or political rewards. Maybe they do it out of guilt for having more than others. Maybe they compensate for feeling guilty about something else. Maybe it makes them feel righteous. Maybe they think that it will get them to a good afterlife reward. But I have met many who do it just because they are caring, empathetic people who want to make the world a better place.

[Stardust Mirror]

21. if your church's books are so open then no problem if all others would be too

you seem to think that most or many churches are not money making scams. congratulations not ALL churches are grifting child abuse centers, just some! I say most are. but, either way, what percentage is acceptable?

if there are "caring, empathetic people who want to make the world a better place" then they should be working AGAINST the promotion of an authoritarian patriarchal anti-human mythology.; "religion poisons everything".

I challenge you to name any single good thing a Christian would do because of their religion that a non-believer-in-self-contradictory-fables couldn't do

go ahead, I'll wait. What moral act could a Christian do because of their religion that a non-believer couldn't do? Til you can name a SINGLE ONE I'll just assert that religion is not a force for good. Any good that Christians do is not because of their patriarchal genocidal misogynistic Stone Age mythology but because they have a decent moral sense that is SUPERIOR to that of their "holy" book.

yes i have vitriol against Christianity, which has been one the the greatest movers of most of the atrocities Europeans inflicted upon the world and here in the US.

[Sky Jewels]

11. You don't need a church to do charitable work.

So just because people don’t engage in church charitable work doesn’t mean they don’t serve their communities and so on.

I stay as far away from those creepy, women-hating churches as humanly possible. I won’t be involved in a mythology that so obviously sees women as the lessers, the not-importants. Even most “liberal” churches envision their sky wizard as a male, and Jesus was written as a male character too, of course. The primary function of Christianity has been to promote male supremacy. I want nothing to do with it.

[wnylib]

22. Of course you don't need a church to do charitable work.

I never suggested that you do. I only pointed out that there are churches who do charitable works to counter false claims that all churches are rich, commercial, tax evading enterprises.

You don't need to tell me that you stay far away from churches because it is obvious in your perception of them. If you knew anything about churches, you would know that there are 3 large denominations in the US that ordain women, have female and male clergy who support feminism, have ordained clergy who identify as LGBTQ, and have official statements that abortion is a medical and personal decision that should not be politicized. And there are other denominations who are adopting those views. Some of those churches fly rainbow flags over their entrances in support of LGBTQ people.

The American Baptist Convention (ABC Baptists) are actively fighting current political attempts to eliminate the separation of church and state. They are strong opponents of Christian Nationalism. I am not Baptist, but from their activism on church/state separation and public statements in support of the right to be atheist or agnostic, I am certain that they would protect your right to avoid them and to criticize them.

[Sky Jewels]

34. So what if some churches ordain women and have female clergy?

Of course I know that. That does nothing to change the fact that all of Christianity sits within a bullshit misogynist, patriarchal, women-hating framework. The mythical character of “God,” the grand poohbah in the sky, is referred to as a “He” in the vast majority of denominations. (BTW, that deity is a cruel asshole—I wouldn’t worship it even if it did actually exist.) Then there’s the child of the sky daddy, who also is said to have magical powers, and that one also has a penis. The only major female roles are played by Mary, basically a rape victim/vessel, and Eve, who gets the blame for unleashing evil. Neither one is given magical powers, of course, because they’re just lowly females.

It couldn’t be more obvious that a primary goal of these Bronze Age tall tales is promulgating male supremacy. But what do you expect of stories made up by primitive, male-centric cultures?

[Stardust Mirror]

14. yeah show me where that was said in this thread

"But it is false to claim that all churches operate that way."
yep, and good thing nobody in this thread did that

try this: hey churches are doing a bad thing by not paying taxes and contributing
response?: yeah but not all churches promote politics or their own pocketbooks

"I've been told" that many Christians fall into the use of straw men in their weak flailing attempts to defend their ancient foolish mythology
but it is false to claim that all Christians operate that way

[usaf-vet]

15. I believe that religion in this world has been at the center most conflicts.....

.... and the deaths associated with these "conflicts" all around this world. Certainly since the day history started to be written.

[usedtobedemgurl]

20. It may not happen where you volunteer....

But I was with a friend when they told her if she did not hold their beliefs, they would not help her. I am not stating all churches are like that, but I guarantee they are out there.

[dchill]

30. It's all about the Benjamins.

[Doc Sportello]

27. Effin' great points!

Especially liked the last one.

[anciano]

2. Spot on!

[Gruenemann]

3. As Jesus said,

Render unto Caesar.

[Cherokee100]

5. Remind me

Remind me, wasn't it Jesus who cast the money changers, out of the temple. Seems I remember that from our daily religion class.

[republianmushroom]

19. Agree

[0rganism]

31. I hope this ages well

What I'm seeing now doesn't give me much hope.

[underpants]

32. Because of the FOUNDING FATHERS

George Washington didn’t take communion
Jefferson finally relented and said “okay I’m a Unitarian. Ya happy?”
Hamilton was a straight up atheist
Thomas Paine (not a founding father but a big roll) was an atheist or agnostic
Madison and Adams didn’t seem to have much use for it other than networking

Separation of church and state when it’s about the Caesar part but not the Jesus part

[bernieb]

33. Not every church is one of them

I'm a practicing Episcopalian in Wyoming. Our church hosts a soup kitchen, clothing bank and other outreach ministries. We welcome everyone. We don't preach politics; we preach the love and sacrifice of Jesus (Matthew 25). Yes, there are churches full of Christofascists, but please don't lump us all together. Churches that obviously break their non-profit status should be taxed. Loopholes should be closed. Churches should be stringently audited to be sure they are in compliance with the tax code.

[onecaliberal]

35. No church anywhere is a branch of the government .

There should be zero consideration for any religion or beliefs when it comes to policy or decision making.

[BlueKota]

43. I 💯 percent agree

They need to keep their religions in their own homes, private religious schools and churches and quit trying to force it on others.

A Jeova Witness and her daughter came to my door. I went to it and said, "thank you but I am not interested." She pointed to my dog, who was sitting beside me, and asks, "Do you have to have that dog with you?" I said, "yes she lives her, and she protects me from unwanted visitors." Then she had the nerve to say, "You're rude. You need Jesus." I said, "you're the rude one. I believe in him, but I am not showing up at your door telling you, you need to convert to Catholicism or trying to sell him like an encyclopedia peddler." Her daughter finally said let's go Mom." I probably was rude, but if you pick on my dog and insult me, you're not welcome at my house especially when you weren't invited."

People are welcome to believe or not believe as long as they keep their nose out of others lives. If they can't then tax the heck out of them. Separation of Church and state period.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

45. The separation of Church and State is a fundamental part of our goverment

[lindalou65]

46. Tax the Church

Lots of thoughtful comments here! I think churches should be taxed and the USA absolutely must keep the separation of church and State.