The Robert Cray song, Right Next Door (Because of Me); Is it about a rapist?

[Fumesucker]

I'm a guy who is anything but a strong persuader, I totally suck at salesmanship but I have known several men that were really outstanding at it and used it to get sex from a lot of women.

I also have a daughter and two granddaughters so rape is a subject that's fairly personal for me.

Here are the lyrics..

I can hear the couple fighting right next door
Their angry words sound clear thru these thin walls
Around midnight I hear him shout unfaithful woman
And I knew right there the axe was gonna fall
It's because of me
It's because of me
I heard him shout who is he, she mumbled low
He said baby don't you lie to me no more
And I'm listening thru these thin walls silently
As he called out my name I was right next door
It's because of me
It's because of me
She was right next door and I'm such a strong persuader
That she was just another notch on my guitar
She's gonna lose the man that really loves her
In the silence I can hear their breaking hearts
At daybreak I hear him back and say goodbye
I can hear him slam the door and walk away
Right next door I hear that woman start to cry
I should go to her but what would I say
It's because of me
It's because of me
She was right next door and I'm such a strong persuader
That she was just another notch on my guitar
She's gonna lose the man that really loves her
In the silence I can hear their breaking hearts

[NYC_SKP]

1. Adultery IMO. NT

[Fumesucker]

2. Strong persuader implies that the woman was reluctant.

And the man used powers of persuasion, ie salesmanship, to talk his way into sex.

The adultery part of course is a given.

[NYC_SKP]

5. The man *thinks* he's a strong persuader, maybe he's not all that.

Hard to draw conclusions from the singular POV, his self-image POV, so many other possibilities exist in this hypothetical that it becomes a bit futile to reach conclusions.

[Fumesucker]

19. Eh, as I stated in the OP, I've known men like that, they aren't all that unusual

I have a neighbor right now that kind of leans in that direction, never stops asking for this that and the other, tell him no and he'll be back ten minutes later to ask for something else.

What a surprise that he's also the type that whoops and hollers and whistles at women when the half-his-age woman he's living with isn't around.

[Lightbulb_on]

24. Making a case ... a.k.a. persuasion

Doesn't automatically imply rape.

Married woman, initially hesitant, decides to go through with the adultery. No rape implied...

[Fumesucker]

28. It's all a matter of perspective

He kept badgering her until she did something she really didn't want to do just to shut him up.

That's another perspective.

At what point does seduction become bullying?

[Chorophyll]

34. Where do you see badgering and bullying here?

Just because he calls himself a "strong persuader?"

You are clouding the issue between seduction and rape (and thereby, sex and rape) and you are not doing rape survivors any favors by doing so.

[Fumesucker]

52. I'm sure you enjoy repeated telemarketing calls after you tell them to stop

Having people trying to talk you into something you'd rather not do is fucking annoying and I don't even have the thing most men want.

I have my own history with being sexually assaulted, I've written about it before on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2288789#2288867

[HiPointDem]

44. so is using salesmanship rape? "baby, i really love you, you're so beautiful..." If so, there's

a lot of rape going around.

Is it rape if a woman uses salesmanship? Or if a woman gives or promises sex to get something else she wants?

[Fumesucker]

47. I didn't say that, but there are others who implied that and will not post on this thread

I notice that the "enthusiastic participation or it's rape" crowd is markedly absent.

Both Cray and I see the woman as a victim, perhaps not a rape victim but a victim nonetheless.

[Enrique]

3. persuading is not rape

if he had said "i'm such a strong coercer" then maybe

[Fumesucker]

4. If you have to persuade someone to do something it doesn't sound like enthusiastic participation

I've been on the receiving end of strong persuasion before, high pressure salesmanship.

It's not a comfortable place to be for many of us.

[Schema Thing]

6. From what I've learned on DU, pretty much any man who can pick out more than 2 chords on

a guitar is definitely a rapist. Coercive bastards.


I'm kinda more in your camp Fumesucker; I couldn't sell coffins at a funeral home.

[dawg]

8. Oh shit.

I can play the D, C and G. I can even play the dreaded F chord.

I must be Caligula.

[Schema Thing]

9. "f"???? Hell, even I feel my resistance waning... must not let dawgs...aaarrggghhh

take me, you fool!

[Fumesucker]

20. Guitarzan? Is that you?

[Chorophyll]

36. Do you actually know any women?

Do you think women cannot be turned on by various things and have sex willingly?

If a woman is attracted to a guy because he plays the guitar, and has sex with him willingly, there was no coercion.

What are the men on this board so fucking defensive about today?

[Fumesucker]

42. Your sarcasmometer has exploded again

I hate it when that happens, the burning debris is hard on the carpet.

[dawg]

7. No.

It's just a song about an asshole. (Two of them, actually.)

[SoCalDem]

10. Sounds like an affair that meant more to her, than to him n/t

[abbeyco]

11. Infidelity is the theme of the song

It's right in the 3rd line and years ago when this song came out, Robert Cray talked about it in interview.

Rape?! ....shakes head and walks away....

[Fumesucker]

12. Anything less than enthusiastic participation is rape

I've read that statement on several threads here on DU.

If you have to persuade someone to do something they aren't enthusiastic participants in my view.

Evidently "no" actually means "Keep on talking".

[abbeyco]

21. The song is about a woman talked into cheating

My guess is someone is looking for trouble where none is to be found. Not everything a man says is intended to be part of a personal arsenal of rape tools. Good lord this is a crazy-assed thread I'm sorry I responded to and hope the OP sees it for the folly that it is.

[Fumesucker]

22. This man clearly talked an initially unwilling woman into sex

Have you never done something you really didn't want to do just because someone kept on and on bugging you to do it?

I've been reading threads on DU for a day or two now that say anything less than enthusiastic participation is rape and I don't see any indication of enthusiastic participation on the part of the woman in this song.

[Lightbulb_on]

25. If you gave in because someone was bugging you...

... it was still your decision to give in. That isn't rape specific of course.

If you keep harassing me to give you 5 bucks and I say "Not right now" "Don't have it" "Sorry nope" and then eventually give you the 5 bucks to shut you up... I've made the decision and you didn't force me. I also had the option to tell you more forcefully to go the fuck away because you aren't getting that goddamn 5 dollars and if you ask me again I'm gonna punch you in the throat.

Car salesman who pressures you to buy a used car that isn't quite what you like but you give in... You still made the decision to buy or not... wise decision or not...

Personal responsibility... If there was a little more of it in the world we would all be a bit better off and we could talk about something besides rape FFS...

[redqueen]

23. THIS!

My fucking god but there are some people who are trying oh so VERY hard to try to muddy the waters on this issue.

Sick.

I wish it was surprising.

[Fumesucker]

31. I saw a standard put forth on DU that turns most if not all seduction into rape

Enthusiastic participation.

I don't see the woman in the song as an enthusiastic participant, I've seen it happen to women around me and often the last thing they really want is to screw the jerk but they get tired of saying no to relentless pressure.

[redqueen]

39. Simply the one word PERSUADER does not imply coersion.

There's only ONE type of person who flogs the concept of SEDUCTION in an attempt to conflate it with COERSION.
:like:

Here, I'll fucking spell it out for you, since you appear to need it.

Examples of seduction:
- flowers
- candy
- requests for dates
- gifts

COERSION:
- BEGGING
- NAGGING
- CAJOLING
- BARGAINING
- PRESSURING

I hope some of that sank in. Cause that is the last response you'll be getting.

[Fumesucker]

40. This was a married woman who lived right next door, on the other side of the thin walls.

The man wasn't giving her flowers, candy, gifts or asking for dates.

If what you wrote is your definition of seduction then the man did not seduce the woman.

ETA: You absolutely want every man to take no for an answer and then you defend a man who doesn't do that.

If the woman was trying to dump her husband in the first place then she wouldn't have been broken hearted by him walking out, for so few words in the song the story is pretty clear. It's about someone who didn't want to do something who was talked into it by another person "the strong persuader" who persisted in asking for what they wanted even after they were told no.

Cray thinks she's a victim, so do I, you evidently disagree.

[cliffordu]

43. I for one am eternally grateful for it.

[Fumesucker]

50. I love it, redqueen is now defending a man for whom a woman is "only another notch on my guitar"

I'm looking around for Rod Serling, he has to be here somewhere.

[cliffordu]

13. So garden variety seduction is rape now?

My my my.

Next, just ASKING is going to be attempted rape.

What a a horseshit thesis.

[Fumesucker]

14. It's not *my* thesis..

I'm conjecturing based on statements I've been reading on DU, rather popular statements it would seem.

But evidently "no" actually means "keep on talking".

[cliffordu]

16. How about begging?

[Lightbulb_on]

26. Apparently begging is coercion which equals rape..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1908607

Aside from being pathetic... Who knew?

[opiate69]

18. " Next, just ASKING is going to be attempted rape"

Already there... see "Richard Dawkins/Hotel elevator"

[nolabear]

15. Am I the only one who hears some remorse in this song?

I always thought it was an interesting song, a moment of realization that those "notches" are so much more than just conquests.

And I wouldn't call it rape by any means. Deception, yes, but he's feeling that moment of conflict where he chooses not to go and "comfort" her, knows that he won't go over and take advantage of her misery or make another promise. It could well be his moment of redemption.

[Fumesucker]

17. I'm not sure how anyone could not hear remorse in the song

I doubt the character will change his ways permanently though, I've never seen it happen amongst those of that type I've known.

[Squinch]

27. Seriously, Famesucker, why are you doing this?

Are you trying to make fun of rape survivors who have commented on DU, but you disagree with their assertions that they were raped?

This OP and your comments are sad and childish, and you are joking about rape.

Why would you want to do these things?

You say rape is personal to you because you have a daughter and two granddaughters.

Imagine other men's daughters who have been raped. Imagine how personal it is to them.

Do you seriously want to make light of it like this?

[Fumesucker]

29. I'm not joking about anything.

To me what the song is about is someone who got smooth talked and jostled into doing something they really didn't want to do in the first place and then it blows their life apart.

I think Cray is saying it's a form of moral if not actual rape, what the song is about, it feels drenched with a moral regret to me.

[Squinch]

30. You are making light of it.

And I'm sure you will reply and justify what you are doing and explain it as an attempt to create meaningful discourse. But that isn't what this is. And somewhere, you know that.

This is very sad.

[Fumesucker]

32. I've always taken no for an answer

If a women indicates to me she's not interested I take that as sign not to continue in any possible attempt to have a relationship.

Evidently I'm nearly alone in that regard.

Is that wrong of me?

Women complain of sexual harassment and justly so I think, I know men, but then everyone disregards it when the sexual harasser is finally successful in his aim.

The blame is put on the victim, I'm like Cray, I see the woman as the victim in the song, she finally gave in to the pressure and lo and behold it blew her life apart.

Hey, I haven't ever had something men want as much as sex with a woman and I've been had the unpleasant attention of these kinds of manipulative assholes, I can sympathize.

[Chorophyll]

33. I've heard this song about four million times and I never thought it was about rape...

because it freaking ISN'T. It's about an affair. It's about seduction. The consent is implied.

Why does the topic of rape bring out the troll in people on this board? I'm shocked. Seriously.

[Fumesucker]

38. I'm not the one trolling

Talk to those who say if you're not an enthusiastic participant then it's rape because I don't see someone who has to be strongly persuaded as an enthusiastic participant.

It's not like I haven't been talked into reluctantly going along with some really stupid shit just to shut people who won't take no for an answer up before and had it spectacularly backfire but at least it wasn't sexual harassment, I don't have the thing most guys want the most.

Cray seems to think the woman was a victim of some sort, so do I. I don't personally think it's rape but there are others here who put forth a standard by which I think it would be.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. "Shiny Happy People" is about taking heroin and ecstasy together.

Don't you tell me it isn't, either.

[Fumesucker]

37. You're cute when you're being sarcastic

Breaking my heart here.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Irony I can deal with

but this Millennial earnestness completely screws my shit right up.

[Melinda]

45. You ask if a Work of Fiction is about a rapist? Email the author. Want to know what it's like to...

be raped? Want to know how it feels to be a sexually molested child? How about enduring repeated sexual acts at the hands of a supposedly loving Grandpa? Or, here's a good one, how about becoming pregnant by your rapist, and then having the child and raising it? Want answers to any of these very REAL EXPERIENCES?


Ask me anything. My life story is decidedly NOT a work of fiction.

And unless your daughters or granddaughters have been raped, it's not at all 'personal' to you... I guarantee if they had been, this thread wouldn't exist. I am appalled at your lack of sensitivity. Your OP is offensive. Your words are cruel.

But do, ask me anything. I have all weekend.

*On edit - dropped a word.

[Fumesucker]

48. Eh, I was molested as a young teen

You think women are the only ones who suffer from sexual predators?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021023852#post11

ETA: Another link to where I've spoken of my history.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2288789#2288867

[Melinda]

55. Eh?

"You think women are the only ones who suffer from sexual predators?"

Please share how you surmise that from anything I've written on this board or elsewhere. I offered MY experience only, it happens that I am female, however I've never claimed only females are sexually used and abused.

Why did you cite your daughter and granddaughters when you spoke of how "personal" rape was for you, instead of your "Uncle"?

Was your "Uncle" a strong persuader like the fictional character in the fictional song you use as a cite for your source of curiosity here? How did he manage to have his way with you? I mean, did he overpower you, beat you, hold a knife to your neck? Were you beaten and cut and kicked and left for dead when he was finished using you? Did the shame of years of sexual abuse lead you to slash your wrists and end with repeated stays in a mental hospital during your teenage years?

Why is your OP based on a piece of fiction? Care to really share YOUR story here on DU?

Do you even care that your OP, more than any other currently on DU, is the very one that has left me in a pool of sweat in my bed for the last several hours... there is little sleep and many tears for me this night. But don't let that stop you from continuing to mock me and other "non-fictional" victims during your crusade to make whatever makes YOU feel better right here and right now.

[Fumesucker]

57. As I said elsewhere, I told no one of what happened to me until I was well into my forties

It took me that long to come to terms with what happened to me that I could speak of it to the person I loved most dearly, at that point I'd been married about twenty years.

How could I be aware of how my OP effected you until you told me?

I'm sorry you are or were upset and it was not my intention to upset anyone at all.

I have shared quite a bit of my story on DU over the years. I read things on DU that upset me on an irregular basis, sometimes enough to have a sleepless night but I don't jump all over the person whose perspective upsets me.

You completely misread what I have been trying to say, my own fault I suppose, I have an odd perspective on a lot of things, hence my avatar.

ETA: The Sandusky situation, trial and so forth left me in a cold sweat more than once from reading here on DU.

[Tsiyu]

46. Okay this is really a stupid OP

Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Sorry fumesucker, but it sucks.

First off, the singer only ASSUMES he is a "strong persuader." Nowhere in the lyrics does it paint a picture of the neighbor woman saying "no" and then relenting.

For all this guy knows, she wanted it as bad as he does, but he's convinced himself - as so many humans do - that he is "all that and a bag of chips."


This is only one side of the story. For all we know, she fantasized about HIM for a long time before sleeping with the guy, but he's such a narcissist, he can only think about his own impulses.

TO try to use these lyrics to apologize for men who can't control their penises, or to apologize for sexual bullies, is so sophomoric you should be ashamed.

I assume you are hetero ( and you appear to be rather jealous of those who can coerce women into sex ) but let me ask you this. If a gay man asks you for sex and you say no quite clearly, how long would you want him to keep trying? If he gets you too drunk to think, but sweet talks you into sex while you're inebriated, is that rape?

If your male boss tells you you'll be fired unless you accept his penis in your anus, and you consent under duress, is it rape? According to your logic, it wouldn't be rape because "coercion" is acceptable behavior from someone who needs an orgasm right?

These threads really point out how many men refuse to evolve. It's sad and sickening, really.

[Fumesucker]

49. I've been a victim of a sexual predator myself

I was molested as a young teen by a man I was raised to call "uncle" and never told anyone at all until my late forties.

It's really odd how no one ever credits that a straight male might have been a victim of sexual violence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2288789#2288867

I'm not surprised that practically everyone that read my OP missed my point, plenty of people of both sexes engage in sexual activities without being enthusiastic about it, I've done it myself when I was tired or not feeling completely well and my partner wanted sex and I didn't.

The "enthusiastic participation" standard I've been reading on DU for rape is my point, it's stringent enough to leave out a great many incidents of sexual activity that very few of us would actually call rape.

Cray clearly thinks of the woman in the song as being a victim, a target, "just another notch on my guitar".

[Tsiyu]

51. Sorry, your OP is still stupid

and I'm very upset at all the fucking joking on this thread.

Maybe you can joke about your rape, but the jokes really do hurt people who aren't doing so well.

Hyuck, Hyuck, you all have your fun.

Sometimes this place is like a daycare from HELL....



And as for the song, FAIL. FAIL. FAIL. Nowhere does it say he forced himself on her, only that the thinks he's somethin' special.

You still didn't answer my question.

Is it anal rape if your boss coerces you by threatening you with your job and you consent? How come no men will answer this question, but they can make a bunch of sick jokes?

[Fumesucker]

53. I think it would be anal rape, yes

Why would I think otherwise?

I loathe that sort of person, you seemed to have picked up on that well enough to use it as an insult against me but not enough to consciously recognize it.

One plus to this thread is that I have managed to get redqueen to defend a man who thinks of a woman he has sex with as "Just another notch on my guitar".

I think the line between coercion and persuasion is not as clear cut though as some here do, I've had sex myself when I didn't really feel like it but wanted to avoid negative consequences from my partner.

Did it ever occur to you that there is more than one victim in the song and there's more than one way of being a victim of this sort of situation?

[Tsiyu]

54. Oh, don't change your tune now

Your OP was asking if being a "Strong persuader" means the guy is a rapist. Was it not?

In essence, by going off the deep end by saying things like "Golly gee! Just asking if she want to have sex is rape now!!!" you demean and minimize the seriousness of rape.

And there are many of us who were molested - not a pass for anyone - nor was it the reason I asked the question. I asked it of the two self-avowed rapists - even in PMs - but they wouldn't answer. Thank YOU for having the courage to do so.

Now, I understand that we must once and for all define what rape is and what it is not. I have no problem discussing what the difference is between coercion and persuasion and seduction, and contrary to popular belief, lots of women initiate sex and most I know enjoy consensual sex, so, no I don't think "all men are potential rapists" or any bullshit like that.

But I think your OP was a very stupid, juvenile way to discuss this issue.

I still like you, though

[Fumesucker]

56. Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

Asking seemingly ridiculous questions and looking at things from odd perspectives can sometimes reveal a lot about a situation, so many things are a matter of perspective, that's why children often see what adults fail to, they haven't learned not to ask the wrong questions yet.

Truly, did you ever expect to see redqueen defending a man to whom sexual conquest of a woman to the point of blowing her life apart was "just another notch on my guitar" and trying to put the best possible face on his behavior?

"Oh, she really wanted him".

[madrchsod]

58. ahhh no.

now i have to turn on my stereo,click the link,and play one of my favorite cray`s songs.

[nomorenomore08]

59. "Anything less than enthusiastic participation" is not necessarily criminally actionable.

But just because something isn't strictly illegal doesn't make it "okay." I'd say that if there's any "gray area" here it's the one between what's legal/illegal and what's ethical/unethical.

[cliffordu]

60. I just PM'ed one of the guys in the band who helped WRITE this song -

a good and great friend of mine for almost 30 years and his comment was

"jesus harold christ....they've got it TOTALLY wrong.
can't people fucking READ?"


He's in that vid, by the way.