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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's more dangerous to be a pre-schooler in America than it is to be a cop on duty
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/17/1343291/almost-twice-as-many-preschoolers-are-killed-by-guns-as-are-cops/
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)/gun nut
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)cynatnite
(31,011 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Or is one group significantly larger than the other?
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Gotcha.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Have you ever taken a course in statistics?
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)It was actual numbers.
You feel that that the number of preschoolers killed is larger because it's a larger group than the number of cops. I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that in no way should a civilized society accept more children killed by gun violence than cops killed no matter which group is larger.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Now, do the math, and what is more dangerous? Who is more likely to be shot?
You're right, it's not creative arithmetic, it's food for the ignorant. Put. Down. The. Fork.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)read the OP. 'preschoolers' are a fraction of children. Namely those that are 3-4 years old. Not all children under 14. Sheesh. Creative arithmetic indeed.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)There are millions more preschoolers than cops.
Again, put down the fork.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)...many of those "millions more preschoolers than cops" have chosen occupations that put them directly in the line of fire?
Please educate me, as I can't seem to find any.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Classic.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)How did I know you wouldn't have the integrity to honestly answer to question?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But you can keep rationalizing if you want. It's pretty entertaining.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I accept your surrender, and I didn't need a gun to get it.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The only surrender here is your intellect to ignorance.
You have a nice day.
Response to cleanhippie (Reply #65)
99Forever This message was self-deleted by its author.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Why did you self delete?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... when it's an exercise in futility. You clearly don't have the integrity to honestly answer a completely relevant question. As such, you make yourself irrelevant to further conversation.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)So you deleted. Got it. You should delete your lady post, too. It's all projection.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Way ahead of you. Your stats are still wrong.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)It's preschoolers. PRESCHOOLERS!
I don't care that there are more preschoolers than cops in this country. I care that more kids than cops are being killed.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... precisely what "rate" or "raw count" of shot dead and seriously wounded preschoolers is it that we are supposed to find acceptable? How many of those preschoolers decided to pursue activities or an occupation that knowingly put them into the line of fire?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)How about you?
ETA I also believe that critical thinking should be taught in public schools.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)And it's also not surprising that you completely FAILED to address the rest of my response. How many of those preschoolers knowingly put themselves in the line of fire. Feel free to use either "rate" or "raw count" in your response. You want an apples to apples comparison? There it is.
Speak up. I can't hear you.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)DU has fallen down a rabbit hole.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... keep dancing around them?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I will not indulge your juvenile attempts to smear me.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Really?
You still haven't answered the question:
How many preschoolers have taken occupations that put them directly in the line of fire?
You bitched about the framing of the OP. I set up an absolute apples to apples comparison and you won't take the challenge it presents.
So, going to keep dodging or get honest?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... the stupid fucking NRA talking point that preschoolers and cops are at equal risk of being shot is a stupid fucking NRA talking point. But go right ahead and pretend that isn't what I said. It's all NRA apologists have left.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)To claim otherwise is simply ridiculous.
... the stupid fucking NRA talking point that preschoolers and cops are at equal risk of being shot is a stupid fucking NRA talking point. But go right ahead and pretend that isn't what I said. It's all NRA apologists have left.
I can't make heads or tails of this post.
Response to slackmaster (Reply #76)
Post removed
Bake
(21,977 posts)Let me spell it out for you. Your question is irrelevant to the OP's assertion that it's more dangerous to be a preschooler than to be a cop. Doesn't matter whether one "chooses" to be a preschooler or a cop. If one is more dangerous than the other, it doesn't matter whether it's "voluntary." What does matter is population size and deaths per 1,000 (or some similar statistical measure).
If you don't understand that, you need to go back to school. I'm done with you.
Bake
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Any time someone from 'Team NRA' trots out claims it is more dangerous to live in Chicago then to be a soldier in Afghanistan....
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)to support some point and then get mad when their statistics turn out to be not very supportive of their point and begin stating that looking at the statistics is unimportant?
sP
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Or too embarrassed to admit that they don't understand basic math.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)deception seems to be a motive more often than not... leading to a willful ignorance of math.
sP
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. an actual apples to apples comparison, as shown in his reply to my #35. Perhaps you have more integrity and will.
I await your "mathy" response. Thanks.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)but that wouldn't serve your argument. using two different populations and then comparing individual counts between the populations is a nasty habit you should really look at working on. if not watched carefully, you might end up posting something that, in actuality, refutes your own point... oh, wait... you already did that.
sP
OnEdit : sorry, you're not the OP in this thread...but you're touting the same garbage mathematics
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)ever the victim of so many horrible insults, the reputation of the gun must be protected at all costs.
oh the humanity. that a gun's feelings might be hurt!
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Homicides of children in school are quite rare.
The home is by far the most dangerous place for children.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)mainer
(12,022 posts)I'm pretty shocked by this statistic, that so many preschoolers are killed by guns.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)So considering that some of the 173 deaths by gun includes some accidents, somewhat less than 50% of the 385 homicides would be with guns.
Note that the most dangerous age is less than 1 year old. It certainly doesn't take a gun to kill someone that age.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-2
Murder Victims
by Age, Sex, and Race, 2011
mainer
(12,022 posts)If there were no guns in the house.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Pre-schoolers are pretty easy to kill with a knife, by strangulation, blunt force trauma, etc.
Are we going to remove kitchen knives, drapery pulls, and hammers?
Arkansas Granny
(31,513 posts)those family members who are so mentally unstable that they would kill a child from acquiring guns in the first place?
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)figuring out your point. Those numbers speak for themselves, methinks.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Note that the comparison is between gun deaths of pre-schoolers and cops "on-duty".
The correct comparison would be gun deaths of pre-school aged individuals versus cops on and off-duty weighted by populations, e.g. gun deaths annually per 100,000 persons. Otherwise, as noted above, the comparison is pretty meaningless.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)nothing about the respective chances of death in each population, since there are many more pre-schoolers than on-duty cops.
Sorry, haven't had enough coffee yet this a.m.
RZM
(8,556 posts)There are at least 10 times as many preschool age children in this country as law enforcement officers.
Not only that, but if you restrict it to the types of police officers who are shot (i.e., those who are out on the street), the disparity is even greater. It's far more dangerous to be a police officer than a preschool-age child.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)and found that there are nearly a million police officers in the US, and preschool, which is generally defined as 3 to 4 year olds, is not counted for separately in US statistics, so all we have to go on is the population for under 5 is 19 milion - so nearly 20 times.
Still doesn't mean it's a meaningless statistic. It's still horrific, and minimizing it is shocking to me.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The gun nuts have absolutely no compunction at all about lying with statistics, I don't mind the occasional exaggeration on our side.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)For those with the ability to think critically, it's meaningless garbage designed to stoke the emotions of the ignorant.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm reminded of Adlai Stevenson's reply to the woman who told him he had the support of every thinking American.
Madam, that is not enough, we need a majority.
Politics is indeed about emotion far more than it is logic or rationality, that's why we've been losing so badly for so long.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Then we have already lost.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)How do you suggest we get the rest to see things our way when the other side is constantly using what works with them, emotion?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Superb point...
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I feel much more strongly about such bullshit on my side than on the other side.
I have expectations of intellectual honesty on my side.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Depends whether you think the issues are important enough to go for the jugular or not.
On this one I think they are.
Man is not a rational animal, man is an animal that rationalizes.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)When you consider that cops' job is to be in the line of fire. Their JOB.
In contrast, pre-schoolers shouldn't have jobs; I thought the Child Labor Laws took care of that.
In light of this fact, the death rate per-capita by guns of pre-schoolers vs. cops should be on the order of 1/1000 or less.
The NRA and it's bots will probably endorse buying body armor for American kids soon.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The Delicate Flowers will do ANYTHING but address the real problem: guns.
I can see their point, however. They are too scared to leave the house without a gun, preferably many guns that fire many bullets very quickly. They would run out of Cheetos and starve.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It is obviously not "more dangerous." There are many more pre-schoolers than cops.
And we can now dismiss anything childrensdefense.org has to say since they are an intellectually dishonest outfit to present such a silly stat in hopes of deceiving people as to its meaning.
Just don't lie or distort.
Ever.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)absolute numbers of fatalities speak for themselves but do not convey any information about the degree of 'danger' each population faces.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Arithmetic fail.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Bet the police number pales in comparison.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Amazing how the NRA-bots are whining about the OP.
Cops have a job; it involves being in the line of fire. I forgot where it says pre-schoolers are supposed to be in mortal danger just because they live in America (as opposed to those nasty socialist dumps like Germany, Sweden, or France).
The death rate for pre-schoolers, due to some clown needing a Precious to bolster his self-esteem, should be zero.
Amazing....
RZM
(8,556 posts)You know that's the reason people are 'whining about the OP.' You also know that none of this has anything to do with the NRA.
What's so hard about stating your opinion without needless shit-stirring?
> You know full well the headline doesn't pass statistical muster
Except for the fact it isn't a statement of statistics. It's a value statement. Thus, you're wrong. My point(s) stand.
Don't worry, gun-apologists are always wrong. Their religion (Worship of The Precious) blinds them.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)You do realize there are many times more cops than there are preschoolers, right?
According to Census Bureau stats, there are approximately 21 million kids 4 years old and under in the US. There are a little under one million police officers. I trust you can do the math from here...
Robb
(39,665 posts)That where you're going?
That number OK with you?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I was simply taking exception to the demonstrably false claim in the OP headline.
WastedSaint
(53 posts)Understand the difference between rates & raw numbers.
I agree with the premise though, no more dead kids at any cost.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)the important figure to look at would be the murder/death *RATES*. The populations would need normalized and the police deaths extrapolated to do a direct numerical incident comparison.
I hope someone smarter than this is working on the gun control legislation or were're liable to end up with "Gun Control" that mandates we buy guns along with our mandated health insurance.