General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumswowsers. this emphatically refutes the 'need a gun to stop a bad guy' thing. how did i miss this?!?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153505/Ian-Lee-Stawicki-Seattle-gun-massacre-hero-reveals-vowed-hide-table-brother-died-9-11.htmlthat should read "hero reveals he vowed to NEVER hide under a table after his brother died"
'I just threw the frigging stool at him, legs first,' he told police. 'My brother died in the World Trade Center. I promised myself, if something like this ever happened, I would never hide under a table.
***
Police said more people could have been injured or even killed at the cafe were it not for the actions of Adams.
'The hero picked up a stool and threw it at the suspect. Hit him. Picked up another stool, as the suspect is shooting and now pointing (a gun) at him and hits him with another stool,' Assistant Chief Jim Pugel said.
holy freakin' moly.
no comment, mind BLOWN!!!
intaglio
(8,170 posts)though I'm not sure if they had silencers
NutmegYankee
(16,177 posts)CTyankee
(63,769 posts)apart and unsure if they want to flee.
All I could think of was all of those women at the Sandy Hook School who protected the children, hiding them, locking them in, fighting back, talking calmly to the kids and performing heroically.
This video does all women a disservice, but particularly the heroes of Sandy Hook...
NutmegYankee
(16,177 posts)But I was forced to watch it at work.
CTyankee
(63,769 posts)images of those wonderful women who were strong and courageous still in our heads?
Maybe they'll make another video showing women taking the leadership role and leading people to safety. One can hope...
NutmegYankee
(16,177 posts)I'm sure the fact that it was made in Texas colored the perspective somewhat.
CTyankee
(63,769 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Robb
(39,665 posts)Firearms included.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)well, that's interesting.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)
no matter how bad they want your teevee. At least 99% of them.
And if that don't work, there's always the venerable .30-06 AP.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)dig? and dogs are a lot more interesting.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)What's wrong with having a dog, alarm system, good door/window locks & lights, a police department AND a gun? There's nothing about any of those that prevents you from having the rest of the others.
Heck, in the long run, a cheap SKS or Semiauto AK is probably cheaper than any of the other options.
I picked up a semi-AK about a 2yrs ago for $350.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)it sounds a bit dangerous.
JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)Gun nuts are getting hard!
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)Your hardcore blue steel doesn't do it for me.
As they teach you in the army, "this one's for fighting, the other's for fun"
Robb
(39,665 posts)This story is about a very cool-headed customer who was more accurate with a barstool than the other guy was with a firearm.
Or as we used to say, it's not the weapon, it's the man. Determined men with box cutters changed the face of the world.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Funny how the "Guns don't kill people" mantra ignores the fact that these folks think guns do a whole lot of other stuff on their own.
Squatter
(3 posts)Stupid arses think guns kill people - what a bunch of tossers!
MrScorpio
(73,626 posts)Bake
(21,977 posts)That's probably one of the dumbest things I've seen lately. But it SOOOO completely refutes the "need a gun to stop a bad guy" thing OP is talking about.
When my bank branch was robbed, I should've thrown my chair at the guy. Right.
Or not.
Bake
Robb
(39,665 posts)Two launched barstools, two hits.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)With all sides (including the British, despite their experience in the Boer War) committed to the theory of the offensive, the sudden concretion of the long-awaited war into defensive entrenchment baffled even the generals. In their obsession with the offensive, and with its psychological component of troop morale, they had failed to recognise that the enormous technological advances in weaponry worked more to the benefit of defence than of offence. The Western Front was shaped by artillery, the machine gun, barbed wire, and the spade...
...Unfortunately for the miserable troops mired in the wet, cold, and filthy trenches, the generals refused to accept the deadly efficacy of the defensive weapons, and spent the first three years of the war mounting one costly frontal assault after another, until the abortive Nivelle offensive of May 1917 precipitated the mutiny of the French army and ended what J.M. Winter calls "the great slaughter." (19)
Warpy
(110,903 posts)doing something completely off the wall to throw a bad guy off his stride. Throwing furniture at him qualifies.
Bad guys want people to be predictable, to act like victims.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i think i just created a wormhole!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101651889
mokawanis
(4,434 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)There have been lots of incidents in the last few years of legally armed citizens shooting criminals, and not a single instance of the CCWer spraying bullets.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)what makes you think somebody would just believe something you type? have any evidence?
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth
"There's just one little problem with this: Not a single one of the 62 mass shootings we studied in our investigation has been stopped this wayeven as the nation has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of recent laws has made it easier than ever for ordinary citizens to carry them in public places, including bars, parks, and schools.
(Gun rights die-hards claim the Portland mall shooter saw an armed good guywho ran for cover instead of firingand promptly shot himself dead. Obviously.)
Attempts by armed citizens to stop shooters are rare. At least two such attempts in recent years ended badly, with the would-be good guys gravely wounded or killed. Meanwhile, the five cases most commonly cited as instances of regular folks stopping massacres fall apart under scrutiny: Either they didn't involve ordinary citizens taking actionthose who intervened were actually cops, trained security officers, or military personnelor the citizens took action after the shooting rampages appeared to have already ended. (Or in some cases, both.)"
skip 2 ¶
For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious. Exhibit A: the gun-wielding citizen who admitted to coming within a split second of shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded, after initially mistaking that person for the killer, Jared Loughner.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Or womano a mano. If you know someone's breaking in, you have time to get your gun. It's a fact that time and time again, a homeowner with a gun has been able to protect the home and its inhabitants. The intruder has the element of surprise, but if you hear, they've lost a bit of that surprise.
In a public event, it's a total surprise...and most people don't carry guns. Mass killers know this...they choose to kill in places that are unlikely to have people with loaded weapons. Schools, churches.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)If it happens every day, as you claim, then there should be dozens of news reports. Considering the large number of people here that are so strongly anti-gun, then there should be lots of posts showing such incidents, and you should have no problem finding examples. For clarity, I am discussing CCWers who engage a criminal in public and spray bullets everywhere.
I can easily show dozens of incidents in which a CCWer has engaged a criminal in public with no innocents hit. There is a web site that tracks such incidents, lists them with a link to an MSM source. The MSM link is proof that the site isn't lying. Here is the link:http://www.learnaboutguns.com/tag/self-defense-example/
The armed citizen in your post didn't shoot anybody. Almost doesn't count. He restrained himself, as did the recent armed citizen at the mall shooting.
So let's see your list of CCWers spray firing in publc.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)The violence began with an argument inside a sports bar that escalated into a fight and culminated in a shootout between the suspect and an armed security guard, police said.
An employee tried to break up the fight, and the suspect fired several rounds toward the subjects he was fighting with, police said.
The two people fatally wounded were the employee, who was in his 20s, and a 35-year-old man, police said. They suffered multiple gunshot wounds and died at the scene, police said
http://wtvr.com/2013/01/01/2-killed-3-wounded-after-shooting-at-fireworks-show-in-ca/
security guard also wounded
that edit was a mis-type, not an insult!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)stop butting in.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)"Mall ninja" is a term of derision for armed security guards with an inflated self-image
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mall%20ninja
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
March 1, 2006
This is a collection of the wisdom posted on the internet by a guy calling himself Gecko45. It all started back at the end of the halcyon summer of 2001, and his posts have created a certain urban legend that many refer to as the Mall Ninja. Hang out at any gun shop, gun show or shooting match and youll see one of these guys; you might even see a group of them since they are known to associate in the wild.
The Mall Ninja is easily distinguished by an abundance of tactical gear, such as fatigues, a thigh holster (with, of course, a Glock), combat boots, bandolier and other accouterments that youd usually only see on a SWAT operative. Median age is usually 19-25, and they tend to boast about their various exploits with certain Special Forces units, all of which theyre too young and idiotic to have joined (real Special Forces types dont brag). They typically have opinions on everything, regardless of expertise, they are uniformly poor shots, and they tend to exhibit a frightening lack of safety training.
The shadowy and shrill figure known as Gecko45 is the holy Dalai Lama of these dolts, but trust me, there are more. Many, many more.
Anyhow, I went looking for the original GlockTalk thread, and I found that its no longer archived. For a time, it was mirrored at mallninja.com, but sadly, the site is now down. Luckily, I had a copy of the thread cached (as well as a great one from the HK91 forum), so I figured Id post it here. Ive only kept Geckos posts (with one hilarious exception), since I dont have permission from the folks who responded to him, but needless to say, he got grilled. A few folks even played along to get a rise out of him....
I've had the misfortune of knowing a couple of these dolts. One in particular enjoyed telling
some of my co-workers and I about his expertise with firearms, which was doubly amusing
since one of the people he bloviated at was a regular competitor in practical pistol events (winning several)-but he simply chose not to run his mouth about it all the time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_shooting
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Further, given CA laws, the shooter almost certainly has a criminal or police record.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)no, CA law means a criminal wouldn't have a gun
they are some of the better ones in the nation, but i guess they aren't good enough.
gonna have to tighten them all up a bit.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)CA law does not stop a criminal from having a gun, it merely provides an avenue of punishment if the criminal is caught and charged.
You are accusing the guard of spray firing, without proof.
And I am still waiting for you to show an example of a CCWer engaging a criminal by spray-firing into bystanders.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)there's a guy who executed two teenagers in minnesota. should have had a permit, if he was legal.
look up your own "facts". i'm not really interested in arguing with a brick wall.
maybe you are having trouble finding evidence of a licensed owner engaging a criminal because it never really happens much at all?
maybe the pros know what they're talking about?
For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The MN guy wasn't a CC case. The shootings occured in his home, where he could have had guns without having to have a CC permit. I understand he has been charged with murder.
There are lots of cases of CCWers engaging criminals. I posted a link to a website that tracks them and provides links to the media story of each one. There are hundreds of such news stories on the site. But you ignore all evidence that is contrary to your already made up mind. Here is the link again: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/tag/self-defense-example/
Here are some from the first page:
12/28/2012
Store worker shoots suspected robber, police say
Since such stores almost never provide guns for employees it is safe to assume that he had a CHL.
Interruption: Wife wants to eat breakfast out. I will return later and list a dozen RECENT stories of CCWers engaging criminals. It will be easy to do. We list those kind of news reports in the gungeon fairly frequently.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and you have to be responsible enough to handle a gun- don't assume everyone is just because you are...
CHL holder fired shot that killed store clerk
The customer tried to leave but noticed the door was locked.
He pulled out his weapon and got in a gunfight with the robbers. Smith was caught in the crossfire, and ballistics tests show the CHL holder killed her.
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl
nothing wrong with self-defense. the problem is the 40-50% of guns floating around that are illegal, which are getting to criminals through people, UNLIKE YOURSELF, who abuse or ignore the laws and make responsible people like yourself look bad.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)This is a tough one. The CHLer is definately responsible for any rounds that he fires. He did try to evade, but found that the robbers had locked the door. That is normally considered a very bad sign that they may be intending to murder any witnesses. Normally robbers only want the money and a fast escape and should not be engaged. Just observe and tell the police later. But there are certain things that if the robbers do them, then you are in danger and need to fight, even if the odds are hopelessly against you. For example, NEVER let yourself be moved to a second crime scene, even in the same building. Locking everybody inside the building is one of those danger signs.
No course of action has any guarantees.
The Texas convictions rates that I have posted show that in 2010 we had a conviction rate for murder/manslaughter of 1.14 per 100K, well below the rate for the general population. That shows that as a group, we are much more responsible than average, but not perfect.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and don't bother getting back to me.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)In a barstool vs gun confrontation the odds are strongly, but not completely, on the side of the gun. While I hope it never happens to me, if I ever have to go up against an armed criminal, I want to have a gun.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i hope i'm not standing next to you.
A male employee of the bar, who police said tried to break up the fight, was also wounded by gunfire, said police.
The woman suffered a gunshot wound to her lower body and is expected to survive, police said.
The 35-year-old man and the male employee died at the scene.
According to the statement, an armed security guard at the bar confronted the alleged gunman, the two exchanged gunfire and both were injured.
http://www.kcra.com/news/Police-2-dead-3-hurt-during-Old-Sac-bar-shooting/-/11797728/17963494/-/owhnvn/-/index.html
from TODAY.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)That attracted attention to him, thereby making him a target. I will be in ordinary clothes, with a concealed gun, and thereby won't be a first target. The criminal won't know that I am engaging him until he is getting shot. However, my own lifestyle does not include bars so I won't be in a bar for you to concern yourself about.
There have been numerous incidents in the past few years of CCWer shooting criminals and it is very rare for one of us to make things worse.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)evidence?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i assume you go the the grocery store, bank, mall...
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Texas keeps and annually publishes state statistics on CHL (Concealed Hangun License) holders who commit crimes. The percentage is much lower than our share of the general population. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
Legal concealed carry saves more innocent lives than it takes.
In Texas the detailed statistics are compiled annually by the Department of Public Safety and published on the internet. It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states. The last year for which statistics are published is 2011 for convictions. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm
In 2011 there were 512,625 people who had CHLs. Out of those people there were exactly three (3) murder convictions and three (3) manslaughter convictions. Out of the general population there were 578 convictions for murder in its various forms.
So very, very few CHL holders go bad, but some do.
The DPS also publishes an annual Crime in Texas Report. http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/10/citCh3.pdf
From that report, page 15:
Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2010, there were 98 justifiable homicides, of
which, 50 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 48 were felons killed by police.
In Texas all homicides, even those that are clearly self-defense, have to go before a grand jury which will rule if the killing was justified or not. So those 50 justified private citizen homicides were ones in which the defender genuinely and legitimately feared for his life. Since most shootings are merely woundings there would be a much larger number of justified woundings in which the defender genuinely feared for his life, but that number is not kept. Obviously there are dozens of cases each year in which a CHL holder uses their gun to save themselves.
Dozens of innocent lives saved versus four innocents killed shows the concealed carry is working in Texas. As already stated, there is no reason to believe that other CCW states have a different experience.
Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives.
Here is a chart showing the conviction ratio for various years. You may verify the chart by looking at the Texas state statistics at the state link I have given you.
[IMG][/IMG]
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)see post #51
guy robs bank. with screwdriver. good guy pulls gun on bad guy. cop runs in, shoots good guy.
guy throws screwdriver at good guy, innocent person gets shot.
just give up.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...belief amongst you lot, isn't it?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html
1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.
7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Data from 525K CHLers is much more than a mere one fact. You just don't like what the data shows. CHLers are much safer to be around than the general population.
1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
Unprovable, one way or another.
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
Law-abiding people don't reach for guns in heated arguments. Criminals likely do. Separate out the criminals for the law-abiding.
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
Criminals do use them to intimidate. Law-abiding don't.
6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.
Living with a violent criminal is dangerous. Law-abiding folks don't act like criminals.
7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
Probably true. Adolescents aren't allowed to legally CC, and are supposed to be supervised if they have a gun.
8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
True. Most murder victims are also criminals.
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
True. Most DGUs do not involve any shots being fired. The criminal runs away and the law-abiding citizen allows him to flee.
The Harvard study is by epidemiologists. Guns aren't germs, they are tools used by people to further those individual's ends. Much better research has been done by criminologists.
If the law-abiding person does not have to use their gun for self-protection, and most won't, then no harm is done. Law-abiding people aren't the problem. It is criminals with guns that are the problem. But for some folks, the gun is a lifesaver. Consider that there are about 10 million CCWers in the nation. According to the FBI, in 2011 there were a bit over 1M violent crimes reported, and about 9M property crimes. That is about 10M crimes. In a nation of 310M some of those 10M crimes will happen to some of those 10M CCWers, which will frequently result in a DGU.
The Harvard study is flawed in that it does not attempt to separate out criminals misuse of a gun from legal use. I am a law-abiding person who background has been checked by the FBI, fingerprinted, and photographed. To attempt to apply data from criminals misuse of guns to me is absurd. The behaviors of criminals, and of people like me, is vastly different and will have different outcomes.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and the criminals who sell them guns legally because the laws suck.
you look kind of silly trying to refute whole studies by typing a sentence, don't you?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/Number_of_Licensees_By_Type.pdf
Total Number of Licensees 1,185,300
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/07012012_06302013_cw_annual.pdf
License Suspended- Disqualifying arrest
1478
License Revoked
353
License Suspended-DVI
561
So out of the 1.1 million plus CCW holders, about 0.15% of them got their permits pulled-and
some will no doubt get them back if found 'not guilty' of a felony or domestic violence offense.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Your OP was about a private citizen in a cafe and saying that since he was successful in driving off a shooting suspect withlut a gun so that the perp was able to run off and later carjack and kill an innocent woman and not about police shootings. Give it up already. The point you wete attempting to make just is not logical. You are attempting to use an absolute for all situations. Life does not work that way. If you come back by saying guns are not always successful in this situation, well I don't see anyone making that claim.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)how soon you forget...
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)You should have taken your own advice and not made any comments (but in order to do that you would have had to skip writing the OP since even though you wrote no comment, you had already written your unsubstantiated hyperbole before the no comment).
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)"the only way to stop a bad guy" is the BS
there are many, better ways, and you are wrong to defend this misguided propanganda to the general public
please desist, this is worse than arguing with my wife.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/Number_of_Licensees_By_Type.pdf
Total Number of Licensees 1,185,300
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/07012012_06302013_cw_annual.pdf
License Suspended- Disqualifying arrest
1478
License Revoked
353
License Suspended-DVI
561
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)there's a guy who shot two teenagers and said it was self defense.
that type of thing happens a lot more than your lone warrior fantasy.
20.6 people shot a day. as in, today and tomorrow.
how many of those were "good" shootings?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)not 2.5 million in self defense.
many more people injured than criminals stopped by citizens.
have fun.
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Results: During 1993--1998, an estimated average of 115,000 firearm-related injuries (including 35,200 fatal and 79,400 nonfatal injuries) occurred annually in the United States. Males were seven times more likely to die or be treated in a hospital ED for a gunshot wound than females. The proportion of firearm-related injuries that resulted in death increased from younger to older age groups. Approximately 68% of firearm-related injuries for teenagers and young adults aged 15--24 years were from interpersonal violence, and 78% of firearm-related injuries among older persons aged >65 years were from intentionally self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Black males aged 20--24 years had the highest average annual fatal (166.7/100,000 population) and nonfatal (689.4/100,000 population) firearm-related injury rates during the 6-year period. Although 51.4% of intentionally self-inflicted nonfatal wounds were to the head or neck, 71.8% of unintentional and 45.8% of assault-related nonfatal wounds were to the extremities. During the 6-year period, estimates are that quarterly fatal firearm-related injury rates declined 29.3%, and quarterly nonfatal firearm-related injury rates declined 46.9%. Firearm-related injury rates declined for intentionally self-inflicted, assault, and unintentional causes.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Further, you use data from when crime was at a peak, almost twenty years ago.
There have been numerous studies that have produced widely divergent numbers on DGUs per year. For example a 1994 Dept. of Justice survey found about 1.5 million DGUs annually. That was a Clinton era DOJ study so please don't accuse them of a pro-gun bias.
I do not deny that a gun in the hand of a criminal is a problem. I do claim that guns in the hands of the law-abiding do more good than harm.
Out of 525K CHL holders in Texas, only 6 were convicted of murder/manslaughter in 2011. That is a very low percentage.
I promised to post a dozen links to recent CCW DGUs. Here they are:
12/28/2012
According to police, a man was approached by an armed man who demanded his gold-chain. The armed man then shot the victim in the leg.
The victim returned fire and killed the attempted robber.
12/24/2012
The investigation revealed that the deceased male and another male attempted to rob a subject, Jones said. The intended victim pulled his own weapon to defend himself and shot one of the would-be robbers.
12/29/2012
Richmond County Deputy Coroner Kenneth Boose told the Augusta Chronicle that 18-year-old Trezmaine Jessie Williams was killed in the shooting at about 6:30 p.m. Friday. Richmond County Sheriff's Lt. Blaise Dresser said another man, 18-year-old Dontavius Payne was also shot in the incident in the 2000 block of First Avenue. Payne was in critical condition at the Medical College of Georgia Hospital.
Investigators said Williams and Payne were apparently attempting to rob another man when they were shot. Dresser said the shooting appeared to be in self-defense.
12/25/2012
GLEN BURNIE, Md. (AP/WJZ) Anne Arundel County police say a store employee fatally shot someone trying to break into his shop in Glen Burnie.
12/17/2012
MAULDIN, SC (FOX Carolina) -
Mauldin police said a man was robbed at gunpoint in a parking lot, but fired back, hitting the robber.
12/11/2012
http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2012/12/11/clerks-who-shot-and-killed-armed-robber-wont-be-charged-prosecutor-says/
CINCINNATI Two gas station workers were protecting themselves when they pulled guns and fatally shot a robber, an Ohio prosecutor said today.
12/02/2012
BATTLE CREEK (WKZO) -- A clerk at a Battle Creek convenience store wasn't about to be robbed. The 28-year-old man running the register at Liberty Mart Convenience store shot the attempted thief in the head when the suspect pulled a knife and demanded money.
11/30/2012
http://www.rrstar.com/news/x1156349919/Robber-shot-dead-by-employee-at-Rockford-jewelry-store
ROCKFORD -- A man was shot dead about 5 p.m. today during an attempted robbery at Jewelry Concepts in the North Towne Mall.
Lt. Marc Walsh of the Rockford Police said a suspect armed with a gun entered the store and was confronted by an employee, who shot and killed him. There were other employees in the store, he said..
"Nobody else was injured," Walsh said.
11/27/2012
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Would-be-Robber-Shot-At-Hialeah-Fruit-Stand-181065551.html
Hialeah police said a man approached a fruit vendor, took out a gun and asked for money. That's when a third person at the scene took out his own gun and shot the suspect.
11/22/2012
Wichita Police responded to the call shortly after 7:00 p.m on Thanksgiving. They say two male supspects walked into KC's Gas and Groceries and tried to rob the store. A third man was outside of the building.
"The clerk then fired several rounds and shot one male," said Sgt. Ron Hunt, Wichita Police Department.
The 16-year-old was pronounced dead less than an hour later.
11/21/2012
http://www.kvue.com/news/state/180346641.html
An investigation revealed the alleged robbers approached two men in a parking lot at gunpoint and demanded their wallets and other valuables.
The suspects found out they were at the wrong car and became a little agitated, pulled a pistol out and raised the pistol up, said HPD Sgt. James Devereaux. One of the complainants or victims had a Concealed Handgun License. He was able to obtain his pistol and defend himself and his friend.
A witness said the third suspect managed to get away but not before he was hit by a passing car.
I guess you could say that was bad karma.
11/12/2012
http://www2.wspa.com/news/2012/nov/12/13/deputies-scene-greenville-co-shooting-ar-4954058/
Investigators tell 7 On Your Side that the victim, who has a Concealed Weapons Permit, fought back when one of the suspects pointed a gun at him. The victim pulled his gun and fired two shots, hitting one of the men in the chest. The other suspect got away.
I didn't select cases of homeowners defending against intruders. They are more numerous, but I wanted to show cases of people defending themselves against violent crime while away from their homes.
sarisataka
(18,216 posts)guards with bar stools in every school in America. The NBSA (National Bar Stool Association) will help fund and train the guards for any school that wants them.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)who claim their 2nd amendment right to bear arms, and call for a civil war if Obama tries to come for their guns, chose not to serve their country in the military when they had the chance. They like to talk tough and loud, but when they had a chance to suit up under Bush 41 and Bush 43's wars, they opted out.
ileus
(15,396 posts)would he have done better with a PT145? Maybe maybe not.
It's a chance he took and it proved out good this time. Of course the stools could have been bolted to the floor, and salt and pepper shakers would have been his next line of defense.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)a gun or a crowbar...wouldn't have also worked.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)is that Lawrence Adams was able to chase off the shooter by throwing stools at him.
However, if he had a CCW permit and was carrying that day, it is also possible that he could have disabled the shooter and in doing so saved the life of the woman whom the shooter later shot and killed as he stole her vehicle.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)sure, its possible, or he could have got shot when he drew his gun and more people would have died.
anything's POSSIBLE.
see #26
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)applies to your original post. Anything can happen and the next time throwibg stools will cause the shooter to create MORE havoc. Admit it, when you wrote your OP you did so without considering the woman KILLED after the perp left the cafe.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)MAYBE the guy who has no right to have a gun could NOT HAVE one. there could be more expansive laws against guns, better enforced.
THAT would be ideal.
what kind of attitude is that, as if a crazed maniac shooting up coffee shops is inevitable for some OTHER reason than he had SIX guns?
see post #26
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)in a world of MAYBES when you wrote EMPHATICALLY that a gun is not needed to stop a bad guy. That's the problem with absolutes, they rarely ever are.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)why are you?
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I have never been a member of the NRA.
These are your posts:
"18. maybe a different neighborhood would be more relaxing? also, pepper spray, body armor, chainmail
23. maybe he was lucky he DIDN'T have a gun, and didn't become a target, and was able to do something
37. MAYBE the guy who has no right to have a gun could NOT HAVE one. there could be more expansive laws against guns, better enforced."
Your OP was about EMPHATIC absolutes and then you switched to several MAYBES. i happen to think nothing is predictable in a shooting situation. The only reason I even started this exchange is because the point you attempted to make in your OP is unsupportable.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i hear you!
my point in the OP is that the nra's 'talking point' is unsupportable, so we are agreeing, i guess?
i'm saying that the "statement"
'the only thing that stops the bad guy is a good guy with a gun'/'you need a gun to stop a bad guy'
should actually be "there are 1000 ways to stop a bad guy, and a gun is the easiest AND most dangerous way of all"
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)a cop runs in, doesn't know the good guy from the bad guy, and gets shot or shoots the good guy.
just maybe.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)and never makes it to the cafe. MAYBE the bad guy steps out in traffic and gets hit by a bus. Or MAYBE the good gjy has a gun, shoots the perp anf the perp then does not later shoot another innocent person. By the way, I am not belittling tbe guy who threw the stools. I am atgempting to tell you that your OP does not EMPHATICALLY apply in all situations.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Nov. 9, 2012
DENVER A police officer was shot and killed Friday by another officer after several agencies responded to a report of shots fired at a home in the Denver suburb of Lakewood, authorities said.
James Davies, 35, was in full uniform when he was killed, police spokesman Steve Davis said.
Davies was in the backyard of a home when an officer behind a fence in another yard saw Davies, mistook him for an armed suspect and issued unspecified commands to the person, Davis said.
Davies was shot after he failed to respond, he said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/james-davis-lakewood-poli_n_2104431.html
***
also found this, kinda f'd up...
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/police-364905-dunn-anaheim.html
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)As many have pointed out LEO are most often woefully under trained on firearms proficiency, to the point of being negligent and a danger... thanks for reminding us.
I am solely responsible for my safety and of those I love. I chose not to defer this to the state OR other citizens acting in their stead. How is this so hard for you and your fellows to understand?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and if your so worried about being in public, a small pistol is plenty
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html
1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.
7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)Quite a bit of training at the Benning School for Wayward Boys, as well as weekly trips to different ranges, (one of which is literally in my back yard) and numerous classes/ schools each year. I actually spend time shooting with the local ERT, I can speak from experience, I am quite sure I am more competent than the vast majority of LEO's in America, as are many, many of the "average Joes" you think are just itching to get their Wyatt Earp on.
I have concealed carry for my state but do not carry due to inability to enjoy being out of the house due the necessity of situational awareness. It comes in handy when transporting to the range or local gun plumber.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Or perhaps you just wish to throw insults. A person who interrupts a crime in progress is not the definition of a vigilante.
The requirements for a CCW vary from state to state. Four states allow anyone to carry, and I am not comfortable with that. Most states require training and a live fire range test.
FWIW, I qualified as expert with the M1911A1 .45 pistol when I was on active duty in the Navy. When I have to fire for qualification on the state test, I have always scored 250 out of a possible 250. (It isn't that difficult.)
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)especially in a crowded public place.
there are probably 100 times as many hurt by accident and 1000 more who kill themselves than get "saved" by heros.
and no, i don't want any statistics. yours don't work for me.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Violent crime is a reality. Old folks (I am a senior citizen) do get mugged. I will not be an easy victim.
Too bad that you have a closed mind. You should take a look at the results of over half a million CHLers.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)go take a nap
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html
1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.
7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)ended badly, with the would-be good guys gravely wounded or killed. Meanwhile, the five cases most commonly cited as instances of regular folks stopping massacres fall apart under scrutiny: Either they didn't involve ordinary citizens taking actionthose who intervened were actually cops, trained security officers, or military personnelor the citizens took action after the shooting rampages appeared to have already ended. (Or in some cases, both.)"
skip 2 ¶
For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious. Exhibit A: the gun-wielding citizen who admitted to coming within a split second of shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded, after initially mistaking that person for the killer, Jared Loughner.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Rampage Shootings Stopped:
Pearl MS school shooting stopped by armed citizen 1997:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
Appalachian School of Law shooting, 2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting
Golden Food Market Shooting 2009
http://blasphemes.blogspot.com/2009/07/golden-food-market-shootout-update.html
New Life Church Shooting 2007
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/1638879
Winnemuccca, NV bar shooting, 2008
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html
Trolley Square Mall
4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting
LAC stops bar shooting in Plymouth, PA
http://citizensvoice.com/news/police-plymouth-shooter-wasn-t-provoked-1.1371854
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)1st link-
Myrick, a U.S. Army Reserve commander,
(not just any yahoo who wants a gun)
2nd link-
There are two versions of the events that transpired at that moment, one by Tracy Bridges and one by Ted Besen.
According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms[6] placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina[8] retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.[9] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[10] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[11]
According to Besen: Before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people.[12] Besen, a former Marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, engaged in a physical confrontation with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled.[5] Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa.[13] Once Odighizuwa was securely held down, Gross went back to his vehicle and retrieved handcuffs to detain Odighizuwa until police could arrive.
3rd link-
The gun owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.
(not a rambo-style gun)
i have better things to do. you are wasting my time. that also took less than 5 minutes. i read quickly.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Waste Liberal's time rebutting them ... after being rebutted on the same point in another thread. Repeat the lie until it becomes "true", just like that German guy noted in 1945.
Repeat XXXXXXX times and you end up with the situation currently on DU (and probably other Liberal chatboards that the NRA has assigned staff to)
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and it really wasn't too hard...
that smilie is PERFECT!!! hee hee...
jp76
(28 posts)...and you only addressed 3 out of 7 links. I don't understand the rambo-style gun reference either.
Are you saying that properly trained civilians should be able to defend themselves with rambo-style guns?
Or that old-looking revolvers are safer than barstools?
Your message seems unclear.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)1st. Just because he was in the Army reserves doesn't mean that he was highly trained with guns. What was his job in the reserves. I am a veteran of nine years active duty. I can assure you that the average soldier rarely fires a gun after basic training.
2nd. They were still civilians with guns.
3rd. What does the type of gun have to do with anything? He was still a civilian with a gun.
In each case a civilian with a gun stopped a rampage shooting. It has happened, although rarely. Civilians engaging criminals is much more common.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)you asked-
What does the type of gun have to do with anything?
nothing at all. a NORMAL gun is just as good as a fancy one. you don't get to pick whichever one you want, it isn't fair to other people.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html
1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.
7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
rrneck
(17,671 posts)And before you know it, everyone will be toting high capicaty chair clips.
It'll be chaos. Musical chairs will never be the same again.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You can have my stool when you take it from my cold, dead hands.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)at least you didn't say WARM stool!
(as in poop)
ThoughtCriminal
(14,010 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)But seriously, should people all be carrying stools around in public?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)" Stawicki later killed himself as police closed in."
So the good guys use stools and the bad guys use legally acquired guns. And once again the gunner kills himself.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)They scream, spit and claw as they fly through the air, and often if you make contact with the upper head or body pf the perp they will dig in and cause a real pause in fire.
Of course you have to get good at it, so I recommend picking up a few canine strays from the ASPCA (for practice targets) and always answering all those "free kittens to good home" ads. The best part of it is that your spent ammo feeds the canine targets nicely.
And always be sure to carry a few of your kittens in one of those large handbags - securely fastened, of course - when you are going about your daily rounds. Be prepared.
Of course, you also need someone to actually run up and grab the guy, so try to make friends with a really fit boxer or someone like that, and always go out with that person.
Or you could try throwing knives - but I hear those are already illegal in the UK, so I assume they will shortly be illegal here as well.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"A bad guy with a gun can only be stopped by a good guy with a gun' is the latest bit of puerile philosophies to come out recently. And anyone who adheres to the absolutist wisdom of a bumper-sticker to do or not do a thing is either a rather dogmatic individual, or simply a wee bit dull in the head.
And for those people, anything more than a pat on the head and a "bless your little heart..." is a waste of time and effort.
-..__...
(7,776 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Grandma Whops Burglar With BBQ Fork
'in his defense it was a really big fork'