Partial transcript from Gun Control portion of my show tonight on debunking gun myths

[stevenleser]

Link to my show for tonight where I discuss this and more gun myths and various other topics: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/01/07/making-sense-with-steve-leser--week-in-review#
Link to blogpost with complete backup for the below: http://steveleser.blogspot.com/2013/01/vpc-violence-policy-center-statistics.html

A myth you hear frequently [from gun rights advocates] is that as the percentage of gun ownership goes up in a state, the murder rate decreased. The VPC (Violence Policy Center) has the statistics on this and they say exactly the opposite. Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “The equation is simple. More guns lead to more gun death, but limiting exposure to firearms saves lives.”
The states with the most amount of annual gun deaths per 100,000 people are the states with the highest percentages of gun ownership per household. Worst in gun death rate is Louisiana with 19.87 gun deaths per 100,000 people. In Louisiana, 45.6 percent of households own guns. Second worst gun death rate is Mississippi with 18.32 deaths per 100,000 people. In Mississipi, 54.3 percent of households own guns. The next three worst, Alaska, Alabama and Nevada all also have very high percentages of households owning guns.

Now lets look at the states with the lowest gun death rates. The lowest annual gun death rate per 100,000 people is Hawaii. In Hawaii, there are 2.82 gun deaths per 100,000 people annually. And in Hawaii, only 9.7% of households own guns, one of the lowest percentages in the country. Next lowest is Rhode Island with 3.51 annual gun deaths per 100,000 people. Again, Rhode Island has a low percentage of gun ownership. In Rhode Island, only 13.3% of households own guns.

The next three states with the lowest amount of annual gun deaths per 100,000 people are Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York. And you guessed it, they all have low percentages of households owning guns. In fact, most of the 5 states with the lowest gun death rates have household gun ownership rates that are one fourth the rate of most of the states with the top five highest gun death rates.
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(More at above links)

[Robb]

1. Did you see the wsj piece on better ER procedures

..."artificially" keeping the gun homicide rate down?

Good stuff as usual.

[stevenleser]

2. I didnt but I am going to check it out!

Thanks!

[derby378]

3. Try doing some research on gun-related homicides in Dallas over the past 4-5 years

We do have an occasional flare-up (last November was pretty bad), but the overall trend here has been decreasing by about 10% per year - despite the fact that we have gun shows, concealed-carry permits, and all that jazz.

Our police have shared their own insights into the decline in homicides that might prove insightful.

[krispos42]

4. Apples and oranges comparison.

OF COURSE the more households that have gun will result in more guns being used. It's why there aren't any snowmobile deaths in Florida, and no airboat deaths in Minnesota.

But comparing the "gun death rate" to the total murder rate is not the correct comparison to make. "gun death rate" also includes suicides by gun!

[NashvilleLefty]

5. So you think suicides are OK?

How about suicide by cop?

I am afraid that some people will manipulate the stats however they will to prove their point.

How about some common sense that's not driven by game-boy mentality?

[krispos42]

6. Sometimes.

I certainly believe it your right to end your life as you see fit. If you can't then it's not a "right to life", it's a government-imposed mandate.

The question of "will higher guns per capita result in more guns being used per capita?" is answered in a pretty straightforward manner: yes. All other things being equal, of course.

The question of "will higher guns per capita result in more homicides, suicides, and violent crime per capita" is what should be asked.

But the OP presents the answer to my first question ("yes&quot as the answer to the question of "A myth you hear frequently is that as the percentage of gun ownership goes up in a state, the murder rate decreased."

[stevenleser]

7. As I noted, this is only a partial transcript. There are other stats that round out the story

including the fact that of 30,000 gun deaths nationwide, only 200 are of the "self defense against criminal" variety.

I believe with those odds, you have a better chance at winning one of the various lotto/mega/powerball lotteries than using your gun in self defense.

[slackmaster]

9. That's commonly called the "body count fallacy"

The false notion that the only way a firearm can be used defensively is to shoot someone dead.

[stevenleser]

11. I made no such assertion. It's one in a number of statistics I quoted on the show that complete the

argument against guns after I refuted most of the common arguments in favor of guns.

[jmg257]

10. But you only have to win the jackpot once to make it worth-while!

eom

"I believe with those odds, you have a better chance at winning one of the various lotto/mega/powerball lotteries than using your gun in self defense."

[stevenleser]

12. And that same logic keeps tens of millions spending crazy money on lotto tickets when they will

never win.

[jmg257]

13. AND spending money on guns to fullfill the perceived need for self-defense. Justification.

Real or otherwise.

[stevenleser]

8. Kick

[jmg257]

14. BTW, where did you hear this "more guns = less murder" myth? nt

[stevenleser]

15. Tons of pro-gun folks made the assertion in responses to posts last week on my show's FB page

http://www.facebook.com/MakingSenseWithSteveLeser

[jmg257]

16. Thanks - I'll check it out! nt

[regjoe]

17. How do they determine "gun ownership per household?"

[stevenleser]

18. See the links in my OP to the article on my blogpage. All the backup links are there. nt

[regjoe]

19. Um, yeah

And you really believe those surveys account for all firearms?

I'm curious. Have you ever seen a 'gun death rate' by county, instead of by state?

[stevenleser]

20. County stats wouldnt be particularly compelling to me because you can transport guns between

counties pretty easily.

[regjoe]

22. How accurate are state stats though

when areas with tons of guns, less gun control and virtually no gun deaths, are grouped together with areas with lots of illegal guns, strict gun control and thousands of gun deaths?

If more guns and less gun control equals more gun deaths, shouldn't our more rural areas be battlefields and cities like DC, Detroit and Chicago be safer?

[stevenleser]

23. No because of exactly the point I raised. You can bring guns purchased from the burbs into the city.

This avoids the legislation in the city that would have otherwise made it difficult to purchase guns. This is why statewide stats are more compelling to me than county or city.

[regjoe]

24. ...

Criminals from the city are going to the "burbs" to legally purchase guns so that they can bring them back to the city illegally? Come on man.

And you didn't answer my question:
IF more guns and less gun control equals more deaths, then why do areas such as mine have so many fewer deaths than areas with fewer guns and strict gun control?

[stevenleser]

25. Your question is irrelevant. The average of a state where there is high gun ownership versus

the gun deaths per 100,000 is the relevant statistic.

I realize you want to pigeonhole the discussion to finally get to a stat that works for your side, no matter how misleading it is, but I am not falling for it.

Fact is, states with higher percentages of gun ownership equal more gun deaths and the reverse is also true. There are 50 examples for you. 50. Not 1, not 5, 50.

And yes, people buy guns at places where the gun laws are lax and bring them into jurisdictions where there are strict laws all the time. A high percentage of the guns that are confiscated here in NYC were bought somewhere else and brought into the city.

[regjoe]

26. Pigeonhole the discussion?

I have presented facts in hopes of a meaningful discussion, and in a respectful manner. Facts that you choose not to acknowledge because they prove your theory false.
You cannot claim 'more gun and less gun control equals more deaths,' when areas with fewer guns and stricter gun control make up the majority of those deaths.

As far as where people buy guns, I very clearly stated legally and illegally, while you are combining the two in order to mislead.
Yes, some criminals may travel to a different area and attempt to purchase a gun, but they are not doing so legally. All your statement does is support the idea that will find ways to get guns and strict gun control leads to only criminals having guns.

Look, I am all for effective gun control that is Constitutional and not already on the books. Non-sensible fearful feel good legislation however, will not curb gun violence one bit.

[Zoeisright]

21. Um, yeah.

Ever hear of statistics?

[Mimosa]

27. Steven, please read

Interesting and quite true, I've found. This org encourages this info to be copied with attribution and a link to the original.

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/jp_seven.htm


The Seven Varieties of Gun Control Advocate
by
By Gus Cotey, Jr.

A Publication of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership



ELITISTS

Many of those in favor of oppressive firearms legislation are are best classed as elitists. Elitists frequently identify with a peer group based on wealth, power, rank, social status, occupation, education, ethnic group, etc. and perceive themselves and their peers as inherently superior to and more responsible than the "common people", thus more deserving of certain rights. Since elitists practically consider those outside their class or caste as members of another species, that most anti-elitist list of laws, the Bill of Rights is viewed by them as anathema. Naturally, the Second Amendment is their first target as it serves as the supporting structure for other nine amendments.


AUTHORITARIANS

Another type of individual who favors the restriction of private gun ownership is the authoritarian. Authoritarian personalities are characterized by their belief in unquestioning obedience to an authority figure or group and a disdain for individual freedom of action, expression, and judgement. Those with authoritarian personalities function well in symbiosis with elitists occupying positions of power. Because authoritarians repress their desires for autonomy they harbor a deep resentment toward free and independent thinkers. Of course authoritarians do not want firearms in the hands of the general population as this constitutes a major obstacle to fulfilling their pathological and obsessive desire to control people.

CRIMINALS

It goes without saying that career criminals would like to see the public disarmed for obvious reasons. A well-armed population makes crimes such as assault, robbery, and burglary hazardous for the perpetrator and this is bad for "business." Also, it would seem that even non-violent or "white collar" criminals live in constant fear of retribution from the public that they financially bleed and would therefore prefer that the public be disarmed. Evidence supporting this hypothesis can be gathered by studying the Second Amendment voting records of those legislators who have been convicted of willful misconduct.

THE FEARFUL

Cowards by definition are easily or excessively frightened by things and situations that are recognized as dangerous, difficult, or painful. It therefore stands to reason that the mere thought of guns and the circumstances in which they are employed causes them abnormal amounts of stress. Rather than admit their weakness to themselves or others, some fearful types jump on the anti-gun bandwagon and purport moral superiority to those "barbaric"enough to employ lethal force against armed assailants by claiming various humanitarian and pragmatic motives for allowing evil to remain unchecked. In reality, many of these individuals harbor an envy induced resentment toward anyone with the means, skill, and will to successfully stand up to criminal aggression.

The desire to assert oneself exists in nearly everyone, wimps included, so cowards seek out tame enemies against whom they can ply their pitiful brand of machismo. Instead of the sociopaths who commit acts of wanton aggression with guns, guns themselves and responsible gun owners are the main targets of their attacks. After all, real criminals are dangerous, so cowards prefer doing battle with inanimate objects that do not have a will of their own and decent law-abiding people whose high level of integrity and self discipline prevent them from physically lashing out against mere verbal assailants, however obnoxious they may be.

IDEOLOGICAL CHAMELEONS

Ideological chameleons follow the simple social strategy of avoiding controversy and confrontation by espousing the beliefs of the people in their immediate vicinity or advocating the philosophy of those who scream the loudest in a debate. Quite a few supposedly pro Second Amendment public officials have shown themselves to be ideological chameleons when they supported restrictions on the private possession of military style semiautomatic rifles following recent atrocities in which such firearms were employed. Like their reptilian namesake, people who merely blend in with the ambient philosophical foliage seem to have little insight into the moral and social ramifications of their actions. Political and/or economic gain along with avoidance of confrontation are their only goals.

SECURITY MONOPOLISTS

Security monopolists are those members and representatives of public and private security providing concerns who want the means of self protection out of private hands so that they can command high fees for protecting the citizenry against the rising tide of crime. These profiteers stand to loose a great deal of capital if citizens can efficiently defend themselves. To the security monopolist, each criminal who enters and exits the revolving door of justice is a renewable source of revenue providing jobs for police, social workers, victim counsellors, judges, prison employees, security guards, burglar alarm installers, locksmiths, and others employed by the security monopolies or their satellite organizations. No wonder it is so common for an honest citizen to be more ruthlessly hounded by the authorities when he shoots a criminal in self defense than a criminal who shoots honest citizens.

THE DYSFUNCTIONALLY UNWORLDLY

Just as a limb will weaken and atrophy if not used, so will aspects of the mind fail to develop if nothing in one’s environment exists to challenge them. People who have led excessively sheltered lives tend to have a difficult time understanding certain cause and effect relationships and an even harder time appreciating just how cruel the world can be. These dysfunctionally unworldly types are truly perplexed at the very notion of firearms ownership with regard to defense. To them, tyranny and crime are things that happen in other places far removed from their "civilized" universe. Also, they do not understand the value of private property and why some people would fight for theirs since they never had to work hard to acquire what they possess. While those suffering from dysfunctional unworldliness are most often people who have been born into considerable wealth, this condition is also common in members of the clergy, academicians, practioners of the arts, and others who have spent much of their lives cloistered in a safe and pampering environment. While many of these people may be quite talented and intelligent in some ways, their extreme naivety makes them easy prey for the tyrants who use them for the financial support and favorable advertisement of their regimes. Needless to say, the anti-gun movement is well represented and financed by the dysfunctionally unworldly.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and it behooves all vigilant lovers of liberty to know and be able to recognize the various types of arms prohibitionists and understand their differing but equally dangerous motives. Acquiring knowledge of one’s foes is the first step toward defeating them. We must never forget that a threat to private firearms ownership is a threat to all freedoms.

The inalienable and fundamental right to keep and bear arms which is enumerated by (but actually predates) the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is not about hunting, gun collecting, or target shooting. Its purpose is to insure that every responsible American personally possesses the means to defend the Republic from all forms of tyranny, within and without. It is what permits the other nine Amendments in the Bill of Rights to be more than mere hollow phrases on a piece of paper. Its free exercise is the antithesis of serfdom and the only meaningful form of holocaust insurance known to man.

We must never insult and degrade the spirits of our Founding Fathers by permitting the Second Amendment, the pillar of freedom, to be destroyed by the cold flame of legislative ink.

[stevenleser]

29. What am I supposed to get from this superficial characterization of people? It's worthless. nt

[Mimosa]

30. Considering another perspective?

I always consider all information and points of view. I thought if you're a radio host you might do the same.

I read the articles at that link a couple of weeks ago. Last week I again saw 'The Pianist'. It clicked.

[stevenleser]

31. This is the Beavis and Butthead perspective on Gun Control advocates. There is nothing to consider.

I post facts and statistics. Those are the kinds of things I like to consider.

[Mimosa]

32. Facts and stats are at the link too.

I gather your mind is made up. So be it.

[Paladin]

33. "Elitists...Authoritarians...Criminals..."

And I'd bet money you throw a shit-fit anytime gun rights advocates are crammed into such simplistic, insulting, inaccurate categories. Try something above the level of the infamous NRA Comic Book, next time. Unworthy of further comment.

[Mimosa]

28. Violent culture + psychoactive drugs prescribed to kids...

I've been studying the issue for 25+ years.

What bothers me is that in focusing on weapons we may be ignoring other factors which lead to violence.

For instance:

http://news.discovery.com/human/dark-knight-shooting-violence-120720.html

[groundloop]

34. Certainly there are many factors which lead to violent behavior.....

Last edited Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:21 PM - Edit history (2)

But with easy access to guns a person who has a violent outburst can more easily kill or seriously injure a far greater number of innocent people.

edit to add:

I'm not for an instant suggesting that our society has the right to ignore mental health issues. I have a relative who has been in prison for many years because of alcohol addiction - he's the most honest and nicest person you could ever know, but he has a very serious addiction and throwing him in prison (where he won't receive any help) is our society's method of dealing with it. I fully agree that people with mental health issues should be able to get help, but my point is that firearms are far too easy to obtain and therefore are a threat to innocent people through any number of scenarios.

[Paladin]

35. Exactly.

Having a vast quantity of firearms circulating in a violent, medicated society is like dumping gas on a forest fire.....