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littlemissmartypants

(22,418 posts)
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:17 PM Jan 2013

Couple to be fined $500 a day for having a garden

For Jason and Jennifer Helvenston of Orlando, Fla., having a garden on their property could turn out to be a costly amenity. The city is planning on fining the couple $500 a day for the 25-by-25-foot garden in their front yard if they don't get rid of it. Why? Because apparently it doesn't comply with the city's codes, which require a garden to have a "finished appearance."




http://now.msn.com/jason-and-jennifer-helvenston-to-be-fined-for-having-garden?ocid=ansnow11+
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Couple to be fined $500 a day for having a garden (Original Post) littlemissmartypants Jan 2013 OP
Florida . . . BainsBane Jan 2013 #1
I've seen the same thing in Oakland CA, and in Canada. Sirveri Jan 2013 #121
Looks 'finished' to me. HappyMe Jan 2013 #2
I'm guessing it really means... "Perfectly flat, perfectly green, perfectly manicured grass"... tridim Jan 2013 #14
Yeah. I used to do landscaping. HappyMe Jan 2013 #15
With flowers conforming to the approved palette. nt tsuki Jan 2013 #94
Yes, I've seen this video game quality landscape installed in woodland areas. Out of staters move in freshwest Jan 2013 #95
Thanks freshwest... defacto7 Jan 2013 #127
Agreed. In an area such as where I live, where nature abounds in diversity from native plants, they freshwest Jan 2013 #128
what isn't "finished" about it? looks fine to me niyad Jan 2013 #3
Looks finished to me. nt rrneck Jan 2013 #4
That is very pretty and very well-maintained obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #5
It is a lovely garden! robinlynne Jan 2013 #6
Not only should they be allowed to keep their garden... LancetChick Jan 2013 #7
There is no HOA obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #13
that shocks me. barbtries Jan 2013 #24
Orlando, whose nickname is ironically called.... Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2013 #30
From comments, it sounds like because the garden can be eaten obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #32
it's got to be barbtries Jan 2013 #33
I think they would win this obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #36
Maybe the internet publicity will lead to widespread financial support to fight tblue37 Jan 2013 #85
The real estate industry controls us. Baitball Blogger Jan 2013 #8
that is insightful Kolesar Jan 2013 #93
OFFS progressoid Jan 2013 #9
Take my neighbors--please! Demeter Jan 2013 #18
Only read a few of the comments, but they... TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #10
well, I'm a gardener and I would say that NJCher Jan 2013 #27
"Finished garden" is an oxymoron. Hope they fight these stupid fines. Scuba Jan 2013 #11
So true, as every gardener knows. The only "finished" garden is a plastic one! SunSeeker Jan 2013 #92
This is a testament to just how fucked up our system is PurpleEngineer Jan 2013 #12
it's okay dlwickham Jan 2013 #16
"Property values" is the usual talking point Recursion Jan 2013 #25
It should be illegal for realtors to consider anything other than the value of the actual property Occulus Jan 2013 #111
Orlando is America's favorite tourist trap jmowreader Jan 2013 #115
Maybe they mean 'fenced in' or comparmentalized? randome Jan 2013 #17
Conform....CONFORM!!! Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #19
The solution is obviously more guns Orrex Jan 2013 #20
More guns seems to be the correct answer to everything else, so why not? RC Jan 2013 #26
They'll take my azaleas from my cold, dead hands!!! Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #86
LOL! Melissa G Jan 2013 #123
Because the city is doing this, I can tell you exactly what is happening... Javaman Jan 2013 #21
Yes. You have it exactly right. MineralMan Jan 2013 #28
I have some knowledge of how this works, too NJCher Jan 2013 #29
The BTK serial killer (here in Kansas) used his job as a code enforcer tblue37 Jan 2013 #84
Thy are the Authoritarian Follower personality type as defined by Altemeyer Occulus Jan 2013 #112
I lived in Clifton for a while, and they had... TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #125
I agree.This looks like a shitty neighbor job SummerSnow Jan 2013 #37
at least with HOA sabbat hunter Jan 2013 #40
Exactly obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #41
I address that mentality in post #112. Occulus Jan 2013 #113
The couple says they don't understand what the problem is. randome Jan 2013 #42
Or maybe no one can adequately explain exactly what the problem is Fumesucker Jan 2013 #72
I agree Renew Deal Jan 2013 #57
it's a lovely garden. barbtries Jan 2013 #22
They can win if they fight this, but it will take MineralMan Jan 2013 #23
At $500 a day its a big gamble. former9thward Jan 2013 #45
It is a gamble. MineralMan Jan 2013 #53
Internet publicity can help, not only by tblue37 Jan 2013 #88
This reminds me of when a couple of friends of mine.. SummerSnow Jan 2013 #31
You know what the HOA allows when you buy a place obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #38
They walked into this eyes wide open... SummerSnow Jan 2013 #48
But changes can be made anytime owners vote for something, right?.. Little Star Jan 2013 #52
It depends on the state obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #67
Simple Solution bvar22 Jan 2013 #87
Not beating on your friends, kiva Jan 2013 #122
are they planting edibles? if so, if I were a neighbor, I would be supernice to them, offer niyad Jan 2013 #34
Yes, they are edibles obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #39
They should place some garden gnomes and really piss them off SummerSnow Jan 2013 #35
LOL Oilwellian Jan 2013 #99
A long line of littlemissmartypants Jan 2013 #116
since it's Florida, how about a nice stand of AR-15s? 0rganism Jan 2013 #119
"Finished appearance" is subjective, therefore a majority of opinions (letters) Ian_rd Jan 2013 #43
Their garden looks finished to me. Guess having three SUV's parked in front is better...n/t AndyA Jan 2013 #44
No borders. No fences to keep children or pets out. randome Jan 2013 #47
It probably is something stupid like that. AndyA Jan 2013 #51
No garden is ever 'finished'... DreamGypsy Jan 2013 #46
heh, I think it takes seven years to a decade to realize the mature growth of many shrubs and plants bigtree Jan 2013 #49
It's beautiful! HappyMe Jan 2013 #55
why, thank you! bigtree Jan 2013 #77
Very, very nice Oilwellian Jan 2013 #103
I had a nice patch of green there bigtree Jan 2013 #104
Nice yard! geardaddy Jan 2013 #71
and, thank you bigtree Jan 2013 #79
Lovely! nt tblue37 Jan 2013 #89
I'll send you my address IDemo Jan 2013 #80
no prob - free-of-charge, of course bigtree Jan 2013 #83
Looks way better than my garden would NBachers Jan 2013 #50
Go to Google Maps 106 E Orlando st, Orlando FL, Street view See what yard looked like before Fla Dem Jan 2013 #54
How does one do that? tblue37 Jan 2013 #90
Photo of yard before garden...................... Fla Dem Jan 2013 #91
Wow. That couple should be given an award! Thanks for the help, btw! nt tblue37 Jan 2013 #96
Note, the next door neighbor has a car parked IN their front yard TexasBushwhacker Jan 2013 #106
The garden looks like a mess Renew Deal Jan 2013 #56
Good grief! HappyMe Jan 2013 #61
It is a very orderly and well-maintained garden obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #69
I'm sorry, that's an eyesore... Earth_First Jan 2013 #58
I was too timid to come out and say that but I agree. randome Jan 2013 #65
Those homeowners paid HappyMe Jan 2013 #66
Why would you be so sure that someone paid to have those installed? Earth_First Jan 2013 #70
Those are professional shoots LeftInTX Jan 2013 #98
You don't know what you are talking about....... BronxBoy Jan 2013 #102
Eyesore... SilveryMoon Jan 2013 #120
Earth_First? Really??? hunter Jan 2013 #124
Shesh, it won't be finished until they eat everything. Historic NY Jan 2013 #59
I love their "unfinished" garden Liberal_in_LA Jan 2013 #60
WTH? It's friggin adorable! Wait Wut Jan 2013 #62
Lesson here is? former-republican Jan 2013 #63
This wouldn't be happening if these people had a gun tularetom Jan 2013 #64
Legistating style. McCamy Taylor Jan 2013 #68
There's no 'style' there whatsoever... Earth_First Jan 2013 #75
I would love to have a neighbor with a garden like that! Brigid Jan 2013 #73
Someone's pissed... Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #74
Doubt it. n/t Earth_First Jan 2013 #76
This is Absolutely Ridiculous! supercats Jan 2013 #78
Would that be the neighborly thing to do? randome Jan 2013 #82
In our town (Lawrence, Kansas), tblue37 Jan 2013 #81
And, of course, reading the comments to the article located here: ChisolmTrailDem Jan 2013 #97
Yes, the comments are fascinating... in a staring at a train wreck sort of way. Silent3 Jan 2013 #101
Hooray for misleading headlines! hughee99 Jan 2013 #100
Obviously they left out the gnomes and flamingoes. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2013 #105
Here is a more thorough link appleannie1 Jan 2013 #107
Um, did anyone say they wanted to 'take' their garden? Or their house? I don't think so. randome Jan 2013 #109
As I understand fines like this, HeiressofBickworth Jan 2013 #126
The reporting is all a bit confused... DreamGypsy Jan 2013 #110
Garden beauty is in the eye of the beholder DreamGypsy Jan 2013 #108
Just put a fence around it and call it finished. Flying Squirrel Jan 2013 #114
I like their 'pot' garden Mimosa Jan 2013 #117
As far as I'm concerned, any garden is a good garden. smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #118

Sirveri

(4,517 posts)
121. I've seen the same thing in Oakland CA, and in Canada.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:39 PM
Jan 2013

So it's not just Florida. I don't personally believe that the cities should have the right to actually make laws like this, but hey, whadda I know.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
14. I'm guessing it really means... "Perfectly flat, perfectly green, perfectly manicured grass"...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:37 PM
Jan 2013

"with flowers arranged conservatively around the perimeter of the house, just like everyone else in the neighborhood."

This is the kind of crap that made me give up architecture.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
15. Yeah. I used to do landscaping.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:41 PM
Jan 2013

It was a nightmare when it came to condo land or a homeowners association neighborhood. We switched to a maintenance only policy in those places.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
95. Yes, I've seen this video game quality landscape installed in woodland areas. Out of staters move in
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:05 PM
Jan 2013
and complain while living next to a forest that deer ate something... in conversations, you find that they came from arid locations that didn't have diverse woodlands and wildlife.

I kept wanting to say, if you didn't want to have trees on your property or the wildlife whose habitat those created, why did you move here...

The newer subdivisions have big houses on hills they clear cut, all with these Mario Brothers yards, that they nevr go outside to see anyway, as they while away their lives indoors.

I see this more as a home association idocracy, and a bit of snobbery. The garden is rustic and atractive to one class of people, but just too 'poor' to some.

Saw the same thing in rural areas taken over the nouveau riche, who object to the yard sales, fruit stands, roadside memorials and small businesses along the road to their mansions. They want to control everything, and they run out those they consider who don't belong.

And if the runoff from previously forested hills flood the people who lived there longer in the plains, they could care less.

I've seen local city councils move up to be with them and ignore what is happening below, just as they do in third world countries. They vote to close down parks, community centers, public transportation and everything else that held the older, now 'lower class' communities together.

Prosperity is a two-edged sword. Everyone wants some of it, but those who get is don't always respect how they got it. Then when they get it, they add religion or poltiical theories to say why they should not pay taxes or do anything but profit off the rest of the people in their area.

That home looks like a modest 'starter home,' as they were once called. Many people, myself included, at this juncture in our economy would find that to be a palace. But the class war goes on and people wear blinders to that.

These stories are typically spun as government oppression by teabaggers for their purposes, but they are simply enacting the will of those who voted for such laws. And while they scream against this, they still enable it.

I doubt if they'll ever be able to collect this fine, but I've seen wealthy newcomers shut down businesses that had existed for many decades and provided small town employment because it didn't match the aesthetics the rich wanted to see on their drive home.

Notably, these are usually in Republican strongholds. They accuse goverment when it's their 'neighbors' who want them gone.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
127. Thanks freshwest...
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:35 AM
Jan 2013

It's nature and the natural that the teabaggeresque anal-retentives want to subdue... to subdue the earth, to tame the unwieldy wilderness. I mean, you can't make money on the natural. And don't forget, cleanliness and Scott's Turf Builder are next to godliness.

It makes me sick.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
128. Agreed. In an area such as where I live, where nature abounds in diversity from native plants, they
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:06 AM
Jan 2013

want astroturf yards and every shrub is turned into a round ball. Used to call them poodle trees. They don't let anything have a natural growth habit, they keep cutting trimming them until there is never any new growth.

The landscapers now cut to make sure their boss can see they did some work instead of taking care of the plants. Half of what they work on drops dead after a while.

The people who loved to see vines, groundcovers and native plants grow in their different habits are dying and new people don't appreciate it, or so it appears. They don't appreciate natural beauty at all. The places are all starting to look like they're plastic. It's depressing.

God or Dog, what I'd give to have my own place and a garden again, best days of my life.

LancetChick

(272 posts)
7. Not only should they be allowed to keep their garden...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:27 PM
Jan 2013

the home owners association, or maybe just a panel of neighborhood judges should award a prize to the best looking garden every year. Land is precious in a lot of ways, and if you own or rent a plot of it you should be able to USE it! Mind you, eyesores really do devalue property in a neighborhood, so I'm not suggesting there be no rules. Just saying that there are many other beautiful ways to landscape than grass and privet bushes.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
32. From comments, it sounds like because the garden can be eaten
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:05 PM
Jan 2013

That it isn't "finished."

I agree: this is because of a neighbor(s).

barbtries

(28,702 posts)
33. it's got to be
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:06 PM
Jan 2013

a neighbor with a grudge.
but under any circumstances how can they possibly fine them so much money?

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
85. Maybe the internet publicity will lead to widespread financial support to fight
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:30 PM
Jan 2013

the city's BS, and maybe a good lawyer who reads about the case will step forward to offer his/her services.

We should spread the story far and wide.

BTW! has a fund been set up for them yet? If not, it should be.

This sort of use of land should be encouraged, not penalized. What should be penalized is the use of poisons to create the manicured lawns, and the terrible waste of water to maintain such sterile lawns when so much of the country is in the grip of a long-term, deep, deep drought!

Baitball Blogger

(46,575 posts)
8. The real estate industry controls us.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:28 PM
Jan 2013

Prime rule of living in Central Florida: Don't make life harder on a real estate agent! They will whine to their politician friends in the Rotary Club and you will be eaten!

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
18. Take my neighbors--please!
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:50 PM
Jan 2013

Too common a story these days....people obviously don't have enough of their own troubles and have to create more for the passersby....

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
10. Only read a few of the comments, but they...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:31 PM
Jan 2013

are all going against the town so far.

First problem is to define "finished appearance". Rules like this exist because sometime, somewhere, someone did something really nasty and it all almost made sense. Now, some tightass can use the rules to go to war against anything they don't like.

The garden looks pretty finished to me, and possibly a welcome addition to what looks like pretty drab surroundings from what little you can see in the picture.



NJCher

(35,427 posts)
27. well, I'm a gardener and I would say that
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:59 PM
Jan 2013

the ground cover around the pots will form a finished appearance. It takes a little time to grow, and that time is accorded to everyone else, so it should be given to this couple, too.

I laughed at the post upthread about making life hard on the real estate agent!


Cher

PurpleEngineer

(10 posts)
12. This is a testament to just how fucked up our system is
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:32 PM
Jan 2013

because republicans think this shit is crazy, too. It is recognized, by both parties, that this is nuts, yet, it is happening.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
111. It should be illegal for realtors to consider anything other than the value of the actual property
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:03 PM
Jan 2013

It should be flat-out illegal for a neighboring property to in any way, any way at all, affect the value of any adjacent property. Each should be judged on its own merits, full stop.

Anything else, to my mind, should be considered fraud and punished stiffly.

jmowreader

(50,451 posts)
115. Orlando is America's favorite tourist trap
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:15 PM
Jan 2013

As such, they will do anything to keep the tourists from badmouthing the town.

The more a city relies on tourism, the more its appearance code will resemble one for Camp Lejeune.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
26. More guns seems to be the correct answer to everything else, so why not?
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:59 PM
Jan 2013
<--- Is one enough, or do I need more just in case?

Insurance -->

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
86. They'll take my azaleas from my cold, dead hands!!!
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:31 PM
Jan 2013

It's those bastards at the UN, I'm telling you!!!!

Javaman

(62,439 posts)
21. Because the city is doing this, I can tell you exactly what is happening...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:54 PM
Jan 2013

it being a "code violation" means some asshole neighbor got a bug up their ass about this couple for some reason and scoured their personal copy of the cities codes to see if they were in violation for one reason or another and lo and behold "finished appearance" pops up.

This is less a city problem than it is an asshole neighbor problem. Most cities don't have the personnel to track all the violations that exist and it's upon asshole nosy neighbors to do their "jobs" and rat out anyone they don't like.

Next to HOA's being a blight on society, moron neighbors who have nothing better to due with their lives are the next blight.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
28. Yes. You have it exactly right.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:00 PM
Jan 2013

Somehow, they've managed to offend some neighbor, who complained. It's an old story. If it were me, I'd fight it, but it's a lot of work to do that.

NJCher

(35,427 posts)
29. I have some knowledge of how this works, too
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:02 PM
Jan 2013

And you are right.

It is an asshole neighbor problem.

These code enforcement people are also very narrow minded and cannot see outside the "rule." I never met anyone so backwards, shortsighted, and narrow minded as the code enforcement people in my town and I live in a solidly Democratic town. Sickening, yes?



Cher

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
84. The BTK serial killer (here in Kansas) used his job as a code enforcer
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:23 PM
Jan 2013

to enjoy his inclination to bully people and demonstrate his power over them. He also used it, of couse, to identify and stalk potential victims.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
112. Thy are the Authoritarian Follower personality type as defined by Altemeyer
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:07 PM
Jan 2013

They are dangerous to free people across the globe throughout history and deserve to be stopped, slapped down, minimized, and thwarted wherever and whenever they exist.

I mean it. People like this are a clear and present danger to those around them, in all places, at all times.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
125. I lived in Clifton for a while, and they had...
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:03 AM
Jan 2013

someone running around with a ruler measuring the height of your lawn. I seem to remember any grass over 3"
was deemed to affect the values of your neighbors' properties and got you a $300 ticket.




sabbat hunter

(6,825 posts)
40. at least with HOA
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:13 PM
Jan 2013

you know what you are getting in to when you buy the house as they give you the list of rules and regulations that you must adhere to.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
41. Exactly
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:15 PM
Jan 2013

I've lived with an HOA before, and I had to read they covenants before I could make an official offer. No surprises.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
113. I address that mentality in post #112.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:12 PM
Jan 2013

And yes, to be clear, it does in fact appear I am talking about you and the poster you're replying to. You can prove me wrong by saying that, in this case, the city's response is inappropriate and over-the-top.

This is not simply my opinion, or how I "feel". It is an incontrovertible fact of some of the worst of human nature, backed repeatedly by history throughout human history, ranging from local disputes to international politics and policy, and encompassing everything in between.

Enforcers of rules need to be informed by common sense and reason or they deserve all the grief they get, with bells on.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
42. The couple says they don't understand what the problem is.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:16 PM
Jan 2013

That indicates, to me, that they either haven't bothered to talk with anyone about it or they DO understand what the problem is and are being disingenuous.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
72. Or maybe no one can adequately explain exactly what the problem is
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:03 PM
Jan 2013

"Finished appearance" is a remarkably flexible rule that sounds like it's being applied very inflexibly in this circumstance.

barbtries

(28,702 posts)
22. it's a lovely garden.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:55 PM
Jan 2013

seems as if someone has been carried away by the headiness of power or something. the power of hatefulness for its own sake perhaps.
i'll probably never own my own home but i swear i hope it's not in a community like this if i do.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
88. Internet publicity can help, not only by
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:33 PM
Jan 2013

winning widespread support, but by bringing in financial assistance and perhaps the pro bono services of a good lawyer with a social conscience.

We can help by spreading the story far and wide.

SummerSnow

(12,608 posts)
31. This reminds me of when a couple of friends of mine..
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:04 PM
Jan 2013

purchased a house where their backyard leads into the lake.The lake is about 30ft away from their Backdoor.Now they have 2 small children 4 and 5 years old.I asked her why they haven't installed a fence in the backyard? She told me the community group doesn't want any fences installed cause it would be an eyesore and take away from the beauty of the landscape.

My answer was bullshit..you have small children.



obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
38. You know what the HOA allows when you buy a place
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:09 PM
Jan 2013

I lived someplace that did the same thing. HOA covenants are not kept secret from a buyer -- the opposite.

SummerSnow

(12,608 posts)
48. They walked into this eyes wide open...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:28 PM
Jan 2013

It would be a horrible thing if those kids drowned in that lake,considering they love that yard and they know how to open the door.

Little Star

(17,055 posts)
52. But changes can be made anytime owners vote for something, right?..
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:35 PM
Jan 2013

Or am I misunderstanding how HOA's work? I never lived in one but my sister did at one point. I think that's the way it worked but I'm not sure.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
87. Simple Solution
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:33 PM
Jan 2013

Invisible Electronic Fencing,
and Shock Collars for the children.
Problem Solved!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Of course, I was joking,
but why can't the kids be taught to stay away from the water's edge,
just like staying out of the street?

This should be adequate for everywhere except Florida and Louisiana
where big, scary things can crawl out of the water and grab children playing on dry land away from the water's edge.

kiva

(4,373 posts)
122. Not beating on your friends,
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:44 PM
Jan 2013

but why would it be OK for them to move into a community with specific standards - no fences - and say "but I have kids so you have to change your views!"?

I assume they were comfortable with the situation or they would not have bought the property. If not, they should have found a place they feel comfortable living with children.

niyad

(112,434 posts)
34. are they planting edibles? if so, if I were a neighbor, I would be supernice to them, offer
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:07 PM
Jan 2013

to help, even. that would be the sensible thing to do. clearly, as stated downthread, asshole neighbors are the real problem (and, having had the neighbors from hell myself, I know exactly what they mean)

by the way, FIVE HUNDRED a day? that is absolutely absurd.

0rganism

(23,855 posts)
119. since it's Florida, how about a nice stand of AR-15s?
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:14 PM
Jan 2013

it can go next to a bed of blooming Colt .45s.

That'll go a long way towards giving the garden a "finished appearance".

Ian_rd

(2,124 posts)
43. "Finished appearance" is subjective, therefore a majority of opinions (letters)
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:20 PM
Jan 2013

stating that it "appears finished" might sway the City's position.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
47. No borders. No fences to keep children or pets out.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:23 PM
Jan 2013

That may be what they mean by 'finished'. Just speculating.

AndyA

(16,993 posts)
51. It probably is something stupid like that.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:30 PM
Jan 2013

But, pets should be on a leash, not roaming free in other people's yards. Children should be taught to not trespass, and should be under supervision. I've been to lots of city parks, gardens, etc., and many of them did not have borders, but had a natural look, like this front yard.

You're probably right, it's something ridiculous, just like the $500/day fine. In what world is that reasonable?

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
46. No garden is ever 'finished'...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:22 PM
Jan 2013

...unless it's constructed of plastic plants, grass, and rocks...and they'll disintegrate from sunlight eventually.

A 'finished' appearance should mean that you put away your shovels and wheelbarrow, remove the empty container pots from the shrubs you just planted, and put the weeds you just pulled into compost every evening....before you crack open the beer, sit in the chair on your porch, and admire the progress you've made.

Dave Mallett wrote a great song...The Garden Song...I sing it to myself frequently as I walk around the farm with my dogs. Dave will be in Vancouver WA in early March and I'll go see him again with friends.

Pullin' weeds and pickin' stones
Man is made of dreams and bones
Feel the need to grow my own
'Cause the time is close at hand

Grain for grain, sun and rain
Find my way in nature's chain
Tune my body and my brain
Tell the music of the land




In the introduction in the video above Dave mentions Pete Seeger as having recorded the song as well. I found this video of Pete, who as he is often wont to do, changes the lyrics a bit, but not the intent.

bigtree

(85,917 posts)
49. heh, I think it takes seven years to a decade to realize the mature growth of many shrubs and plants
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:28 PM
Jan 2013

. . .'finished' would be when it all fills in, imo.


here's my front yard (first two are early pics, before it filled in)












bigtree

(85,917 posts)
104. I had a nice patch of green there
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:45 PM
Jan 2013

no fertilizer but a spray down of ammonia and beer when I mowed. Had a nice mower that I cherished until it died . . . that year the grass grew almost as long as my hair and the neighborhood authority sent me a threatening note about cutting it (the grass). Anyway, I tore up the green and left naught but a path down the middle which eventually got flagstoned and stuffed with lirope. I took out most of the rest of the remaining lawn around the house the next year and bought one of those manual lawnmowers. This year we got rid of everything but the city strip by the street and I bought a scythe-like weeder to knock down the tall growth a couple times during the summer.

It's funny. Most of the yards around here are huge in the front with long stretches of lawn. All of their fertilizer ends up in the two lakes positioned to take all of the town's runoff; predictable result. Thing is, the actual lawn growing season around here is only a couple of months long because of the dependable drought which turns most of them brown and stifles the rest. It's a trip to see all of the fuss over keeping them mowed right down to earth level; then they just croak . . .

Fla Dem

(23,351 posts)
54. Go to Google Maps 106 E Orlando st, Orlando FL, Street view See what yard looked like before
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:42 PM
Jan 2013

They planted the garden. Looks like an improvement to me.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
90. How does one do that?
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:40 PM
Jan 2013

Or could you post a before image for us internet/computer morons? I am on a Nook, so I'm not sure I can even use the map thingy that way.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,043 posts)
106. Note, the next door neighbor has a car parked IN their front yard
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:50 PM
Jan 2013

If you pan around to see the neighbors yards, no ones lawns are doing especially well. If you're going to spend money watering, it makes more sense to me to water plants you can eat than non-native grasses that are going to struggle to survive.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
58. I'm sorry, that's an eyesore...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:45 PM
Jan 2013

Not only that, it's a horrible example of a no-till garden.

Try installing (and maintaining) something along the lines of what these homeowners put their time and effort into and I'd be willing the HOA would be more willing to negotiate:





 

randome

(34,845 posts)
65. I was too timid to come out and say that but I agree.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:55 PM
Jan 2013

It looks nice if the goal is to 'return to Nature' or something but that's generally not the look the residents of a subdivision are aiming for.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
66. Those homeowners paid
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:56 PM
Jan 2013

somebody to install and maintain those gardens.

The homes in those pictures aren't in the same price range as the couple's home in the OP. It's not the usual HOA loonies complaining, it's a cranky neighbor via their city.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
70. Why would you be so sure that someone paid to have those installed?
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:58 PM
Jan 2013

Because time and effort was put into it; they were professionally done?

I'm sorry, I *am* a professional installer; and with maybe the exception of the top image are any of those three images professionally installed.

LeftInTX

(24,554 posts)
98. Those are professional shoots
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:14 PM
Jan 2013

Not only are the gardens professionally designed, they are professionally maintained and "set up" the day of the shoot. Note how there are no stray leaves anywhere. Everything is immaculate. They look like they came out of Better Homes and Garden.

BronxBoy

(2,286 posts)
102. You don't know what you are talking about.......
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:28 PM
Jan 2013

the homeowners in the first picture ran into exactly the same problems as the homeowners in the OP. And where do you get that that garden is no-till? No-till can be utilized in raised beds but they don't not necessarily have to be. I believe the garden in the OP is closer to a no till garden than the ones you pictured. No till generally involves cover cropping and conservation tillage which certainly is more of a reality in the garden in the OP that in the "landscaped" gardens you posted.

This is a serious issue here in the Atlanta area and the one thing stifling the growth of the urban agriculture movement is the inability of local governments to change with the times and develop sensible regs that address the rights of ALL property owners

hunter

(38,264 posts)
124. Earth_First? Really???
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:28 PM
Jan 2013

I'm supposed to BUY stuff to save the earth? How does that work?

In your pictures I see new wood borders and fencing, ghastly cast-concrete stonework, and rocks and gravel that probably took very long trips on fossil fueled trucks.

Maybe it's a little better than a synthetic fertilizer and pesticide-drenched lawn, but it's not earth first. You probably wouldn't like my broken sidewalk retaining walls or the old truck in my driveway, a constant feature of google satellite and street views. I like them precisely because they are not new. I did not do anything to cause new stuff to be made, I simply reused old stuff that had already been discarded.

I'm lucky, I guess, to live in a city where people plant plant corn, squash, and beans in their front yards, work on project cars in their driveways, paint their houses astonishing colors... And NOBODY cares, least of all the city code enforcement people who are too busy with serious code violators like people who rent out mattresses in their crawlspaces to undocumented workers, or garages to extended families of a dozen people.

I think the garden in the original post looks great, better than your examples. Nevertheless, the only people who matter are the people who tend the garden. If a yard or garden is maintained and not allowed to become a breeding ground for invasive weeds, biting insects, and vermin, then it's fine by me. Walk on by and smile at the neighbors.

Wait Wut

(8,492 posts)
62. WTH? It's friggin adorable!
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:50 PM
Jan 2013

It looks like an elf garden/house. Not my style (I'm a city girl by heart), but I'd definitely love to visit!

They look like liberals. I think that's the real issue.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
75. There's no 'style' there whatsoever...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:05 PM
Jan 2013

It looks to me that in an attempt to create a no-till bed, they mounded the property; haphazardly covered black plastic barrier as a weed-control method; and placed out their plants at will.

There's no 'design' OR 'style' to this; it's poorly executed on their part.

It needs to be redone with some thought to the asthetics to both the home and the neighborhood to make it pop better.

Sorry.

Eyesore.

Puha Ekapi

(594 posts)
74. Someone's pissed...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:05 PM
Jan 2013

...because these folks are providing their own healthy food instead of buying "produce" at the Wally World Super Store.

 

supercats

(429 posts)
78. This is Absolutely Ridiculous!
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:13 PM
Jan 2013

Their garden is beautiful and artistic. There is nothing "wrong" with it whatsoever. They need to tell the city to politely to go fuck themselves.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
82. Would that be the neighborly thing to do?
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:21 PM
Jan 2013

If 'wild and untamed' is the look they wanted, they should not have moved into a subdivision.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
81. In our town (Lawrence, Kansas),
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:21 PM
Jan 2013

there is a house with a carefully designed and maintained front yard "habitat." The owner has clearly created the habitat to encourage wildflowers and small birds and animals. It is quite charming, but to the untutored eye it seems, as a girl in my class complained one semester, "sloppy."

I use the contrast between it and more manicured lawns and flower gardens to illustrate for my poetry students the different attitudes toward nature that dominated in the Romantic and Neoclassical periods.

The Neoclassical period (the Enlightenment) was concerned not just with studying and understanding naturer by way of science, but also with dominating its forces to turn them toward human needs and desires, including both the improvement of our material existence and the satisfaction of that aspect of our aesthetic sense that delights in order and control.

The Romantics, on the other hand, were inclined to see nature as the living garment of God--or of the divine in the mortal world if they were pantheists. They were inclined to revel in nature's untamed power and beauty, especially as manifested in its most sublime and overwhelmingly huge and powerful scenes and forces. But they also delighted in nature's smaller manifestations, as long as they were--well, natural.

I think the garden in the OP is lovely. I hope they get enough support now to challenge the city--and enough financial support to ride out the city's bullying.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
97. And, of course, reading the comments to the article located here:
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:09 PM
Jan 2013
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/College-Park-couple-says-front-yard-vegetable-garden-is-under-fire-again/-/1637132/18035884/-/png2kpz/-/index.html

...which is the source used by MSN, it's all the fault of Obama and Liberals.

God I hate right-wingnutjobs. I viscerally HATE them and wish they would all simply vanish.

Silent3

(15,018 posts)
101. Yes, the comments are fascinating... in a staring at a train wreck sort of way.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:27 PM
Jan 2013

There's not a single thing in the article there that says anything about the political persuasion of the city government or the members of that government who created the law that's causing the problems.

Yet a screaming ALL-CAPS gaggle of commenters is sure that it's Obama and libruls and commies and socialists ruinin' 'Mer'ca. My guess (and I'll at least admit it's a guess) is that laws like this much more often come from Republican-leaning upper middle income folk trying to enforce uniformity and protect their property values, not from liberals at all.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
100. Hooray for misleading headlines!
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:25 PM
Jan 2013

Sorry, pet peeve of mine. I'd suggest that a "news" outlet like MSN might know better, but from experience, I know they don't.

"Couple fined for having ugly garden" might have been better.

Personally, I think the garden looks nice, but it always seems to go poorly when phrases like "well kept" and "finished appearance" are left to the discretion of a few individuals, and whether something meets the criteria or not can depend on how much those people like you.

appleannie1

(5,044 posts)
107. Here is a more thorough link
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:52 PM
Jan 2013

Jason and Jennifer Helvenston feel the code violates their right to grow food on their property. In response to the garden fine, the couple have launched “Plant a Seed, Change the Law.” The initiative aims to bring attention to the city code they feel is unfair.

Jennifer Helvenston explained:

“The greatest freedom you can give someone is the freedom to know they will not go hungry. Our Patriot Garden pays for all of its costs in healthy food and lifestyle while having the lowest possible carbon footprint. It supplies valuable food while being attractive. I really do not understand why there is even a discussion. They will take our house before they take our Patriot Garden.”


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/474839/couple-fined-for-having-garden-growing-vegetables-will-cost-500-a-day/#ILfTsYRo8qG2JAti.99

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
109. Um, did anyone say they wanted to 'take' their garden? Or their house? I don't think so.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:58 PM
Jan 2013

It sounds to me like they are making the situation worse by being confrontational.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
126. As I understand fines like this,
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:26 AM
Jan 2013

$500 a day, remaining unpaid, will result in the City putting a lien upon the property. An unpaid lien will result in foreclosure of the property to pay the unpaid fines in a time frame according to FL lien laws. So, yes, I believe their house is being threatened.

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
110. The reporting is all a bit confused...
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:24 PM
Jan 2013

and hence, confusing.

From the more thorough report:

If the couple decides keep the garden, then they will have to pay $500 per day. The Christian Post is reporting that an Orlando city code prohibits residents from growing fruits and vegetables in their front yards.

Following the Christian Post link gives me "select json from cp_data where label='wwwhomepage52' and applied=1...". Not too useful.

The other note from the article is:

According to The New York Times, the Helvenstons’ front yard lacks a “finished” look as dictated by the code.

Following The New York Times link one finds:

Mr. Padin contacted the city, which cited the Helvenstons for violating section 60.207 of Orlando’s Land Development Code (failure to maintain ground cover on property) and set a deadline of Nov. 7 to comply.



Here's the full text of section 60.207 from the Orlando Code:

Sec. 60.207. - General Requirements.

Sec. 60.207. - General Requirements.permanent link to this piece of content

The property owner, occupant and/or agent shall be jointly and individually responsible for installing landscaping, according to accepted commercial planting procedures, using plant materials of species which are native or adapted to the Orlando area.

Existing Plant Material. The Zoning Official may adjust the application of standards contained herein, in part or in whole, to allow credit for healthy plant material on a building site prior or subsequent to its development, if such an adjustment is consistent with the intent of this Chapter. Existing plant material native to Central Florida should, in particular, be retained.

Protection. The Zoning Official shall be authorized to require landscaped areas to be protected from vehicular encroachment with effective wheel stops or curbs.

Anchoring. Wherever new medium or large trees are installed they shall be provided with anchoring to maintain the tree in a vertical upright position for a period of at least one year, in order to provide sufficient time for their roots to become established. Single staking of trees shall be prohibited.

Tree Health. Trees used to satisfy the requirements of this Part shall be in good or fair health as defined by this Chapter. A determination as to the health of trees need not be made in advance of their use; however, poor tree health may be established at any point during the development process in either one of the following ways:

(a)

The applicant may claim poor tree health as a reason to remove an existing tree which would otherwise be required to be retained to satisfy the requirements of this Part. To do so, the applicant shall submit an expert evaluation by a landscape architect, horticulturalist, urban forester or other expert as part of his tree removal permit application.

(b)

The Parks Official in coordination with the Zoning Official may claim poor tree health as a reason for disallowing a new or existing tree for use in satisfying the requirements of this Part. The applicant may rebut such a claim by submitting an expert evaluation by a landscape architect, horticulturalist, urban forester or other expert to the Parks Official, who shall make a final determination. If the expert evaluation recommends recuperative measures to improve tree health, the Parks Official may condition the retention of the tree upon these measures, and may reassess the health of the tree after a one-year recuperation period.

Quality. Plant materials used in conformance with provisions of this Part shall equal or exceed the standards for Florida No. 1 as established and revised by the Florida Department of Agriculture. Grass sod shall be clean and reasonably free of weeds and noxious pests or disease. Grass seed used shall meet requirements of the FDOA quality control program.

Irrigation. Irrigation systems shall be installed according to manufacturer's specifications and the Standard Plumbing Code. All automatic irrigation systems as required by this Part shall be maintained in proper operating condition. Automatically controlled systems shall be operated by an irrigation controller that can provide water to high, moderate, and low water use zones and turfgrass areas on different schedules. Moisture sensor and/or rain gauge equipment shall be required on automatic irrigation systems to avoid irrigation during periods of sufficient rainfall. The use of low volume, emitter or target irrigation is preferred for trees, shrubs and ground covers. Irrigation systems shall be operated to conform to St. John's River or South Florida Water Management District mandatory water use restrictions, when applicable.

Berms. When a berm is used to form a visual screen in lieu of, or in conjunction with, a hedge or wall, such berm shall not exceed a slope of 3:1, and shall be completely covered with shrubs, grass or other living ground cover.

Ground Covers. Ground covers shall be planted in a manner so as to present a finished appearance with reasonably complete coverage under normal growing conditions within 12 months after planting. All improved property in the City, including residential, shall have ground cover or turfgrass installed and maintained in those areas not otherwise planted or covered by structures or pavement.

Hedges. Shrubs used to form hedges shall be of a non-deciduous species, shall be a minimum of 24 inches in height above grade at the time of planting and shall be spaced not more than 36 inches apart and maintained so as to form a continuous visual screen 30 inches in height above grade, under normal growing conditions, within one year after planting.

Turf Grass. Grass shall be of a species normally grown as permanent lawns in the City of Orlando. Grass areas may be sodded, plugged, sprigged or seeded except that solid sod shall be used in swales or other areas subject to erosion.

Tree and Shrub Installation. Grow bags and containers including synthetic burlap shall be completely removed from the root ball prior to planting. All twine or wire shall be cut off from around the trunk at the top of the rootball. Trees and shrubs shall be mulched to a minimum depth of 2 inches with organic mulch at least to the perimeter of the rootball.

(Ord. of 9-16-1991, Doc. #25097; Ord. of 4-20-1992, Doc. #25634)


Seems to me like the applicable section is Ground Covers:

Ground covers shall be planted in a manner so as to present a finished appearance with reasonably complete coverage under normal growing conditions within 12 months after planting


The New York times article discuss the general trend of edible gardens. It also defuses the comments on these thread about current tract housing, subdivision requirements, etc.:

Mr. Helvenston spent last Super Bowl Sunday planting the garden outside his 1940s cottage, in a neighborhood of modest houses close to downtown. Orlando’s growing season is nearly year-round, and Mr. Helvenston, a self-employed sustainability consultant for the building trade, said he saw the garden as “a budget thing” — a money-saving supplement to the chicken coop he and his wife, Jennifer, installed a few months later behind their house.


Ok. I'm done. Excuse me, I need to go get a life.

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
108. Garden beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:54 PM
Jan 2013

and the dreams of the gardener.

THIS



AND THIS



AND THIS



all beautiful.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
114. Just put a fence around it and call it finished.
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:05 PM
Jan 2013

Problem solved. (Unless fences aren't allowed, in which case they should turn their house around.)

Mimosa

(9,131 posts)
117. I like their 'pot' garden
Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:57 PM
Jan 2013

It's cute, individual. It's not like they've a rusting car on blocks and a ratty sofa in the front yard!

*Grrr* to control freaks, micro-managers, and bossy intolerant neighbors!

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