What will we do if/when someone kills themselves over heavy copyright violation fine/jailtime?

[Bonobo]

Last edited Mon Jan 14, 2013, 06:40 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't know that this has happened yet, but it will.

A teen (most likely) will kill him/herself when confronted with a fine of tens of thousands of dollars (or more) or possible jail time.

It will happen. Count on it. Because teens cannot see the larger picture in many cases. To them, the whole world is right in front of them, crashing down on them.

Prepare yourself because it will happen. And what will we say when a teen takes their own life over a downloaded Justin Bieber album or a Hollywood movie?

Will we say it was justified? That they knew the risk? Will we tell ourselves it is an unavoidable tragedy? Justice?

Will it be worth it?

It WILL happen if it hasn't already.

[LooseWilly]

1. Will we say "Yaaar!", and tipple of our grog?

I say aye... for a pirate deserves no less than a tipple or two, no matter how he/she falls...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

2. WTF? Post title: egregious thing has happened

Post body: well, it could happen and mark my words it will. And when this outrageous thing I'm merely speculating on DOES happen....well, what then?!

[Bonobo]

3. Sorry but what the fuck are you mumbling about? nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. Your attention seeking but less than honest post title

BTW. I am friends with several independent label musicians in Portland. They aren't real big fans of piracy either.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

8. He's saying your thread title was intentionally false

hyperbole to goad people into clicking on your thread.

[whistler162]

11. That is a question you should have asked

yourself before posting mindless drivel!

[Katashi_itto]

12. Misleading title, something that hasn't even happened

Last edited Mon Jan 14, 2013, 07:12 AM - Edit history (1)

His follow up posts are self-centered, Bo seems to have issues.

I see a narcissistic pattern by the poster this and other things he's posted.

[Major Nikon]

15. You got into with him on another thread

Now he has "issues".

[Bonobo]

16. But it's true man, I love the hell out of myself.

And I am irritated by otaku.

[Major Nikon]

18. You should have that checked

Just sayin'

[AverageJoe90]

5. Sad thing to contemplate, but it could happen.

To be fair, I'm not totally against some compensation for an "illegally" downloaded song. Why not make the downloader pay a fee of something like, say, a few bucks per song, in the cases of artists who may really actually be hurting because of it(I seriously doubt there's many, but there could be a few)?

In many cases, however, it should be pointed out that downloaders usually do end up getting around to buying the songs they download.....not always, but definitely often.

And certainly, I think most people on both sides, both okay with, and not so okay with grey-market downloading, aren't happy with the exorbitant punishments many downloaders have to go through.

[Bonobo]

6. I agree. nt

I think I object only to the fucked up scale of the rulings I have heard of so far.

Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and 5 years jail time or whatever or not commensurate with the seriousness of the crime.

I think it is likely to happen and despite the Pretzel Warrior's personal acquaintance with record producers or whatever, I do not think it is worth a human life.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. Let me lay this out for you. Actual suicides that don't rate an OP from you...in Japan and the US

Widespread bullying in Japanese schools has gained media attention recently with the suicides of a 12-year-old last week and a 13-year-old last year, both a result of bullying from classmates.

In July, Japanese minister of education Hirofumi Hirano called for an investigation into the causes of and remedies for student bullying, according to The Japan Daily Press.

An American English teacher in Japan also recently made a video called “Being Gay in Japan” in which he interviews his Japanese friend about the pressures of being gay in the country.

Following in the footsteps of the U.S. It Gets Better Project, Connected Hearts School cofounders Sugiyama and Taiga Ishikawa have already gathered support from several Japanese celebrities, including novelist Ira Ishida and two-time Olympic fencing medalist Yuki Ota.
http://www.advocate.com/society/youth/2012/09/07/antibullying-project-launch-japan-after-recent-teen-suicides

So here you are making fantasy 'what ifs' about suicides when there are real life suicides that you exploit to make hay for some anti artist bullshit campaign.
Sad.

[TeamPooka]

7. Your headline is misleading and insensitive. If that's how you need to "get an audience"...

then try harder.
You lost me for your debate team because of your tactics.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

9. Consider the source.

[Katashi_itto]

13. True, He's a narcissist

[Bonobo]

17. Yes, I am.

And you are a weeaboo.

[Katashi_itto]

48. Snicker...if you say so... :)

Again... that Bonobo arrogance shines through

Ok, after looking up what the hell your babbling about again...finding out what the heck a weeaboo is...well Maybe if I was remotely obsessed with Japanese culture, anime or any of that...maybe...but as usual your off the mark...why am I not surprised.

Seems weeaboo more applicable to you.

[Bonobo]

49. Okay, "Katashi Itto"

With your Ukiyo-e avatar and kendo fighter signature who pretended to speak Japanese.

[Katashi_itto]

50. I never pretended to speak Japanese fluently :)

Your the one that solemnly pronounced that you translated Japanese for twenty years....

Seriously self-centered aren't you...

A floating world avatar, kendo fighter signature? Yeah very anime/okatu....snicker

You read way to much into someone's avatar and signature and again what you conclude is as usual off the mark.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

10. "tens of thousands of dollars (or more) or possible jail time"

and "a teen taking their own life over a downloaded Justin Bieber album". Yeah, that's gonna happen.

[Bonobo]

32. A young man has been charged $675,000 for 30 songs. nt

[Unknown Beatle]

14. WTF?

You're like Pox Noose. Leading with a headline and then misdirecting.

I had nasty, dirty dripping with sweat sex with Charlize Theron.
This hasn't happened yet, but it will.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. What do you do when gay teens actually committ suicide? NOTHING.

That's right.

http://www.advocate.com/society/youth/2012/09/07/antibullying-project-launch-japan-after-recent-teen-suicides

[Bonobo]

21. You're attacking me for not writing a different OP? That's weird. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

23. No, I am commenting on the fact that in the face of actual, ongoing suicides among teens you

are not moved to action, but here you are exploiting teen suicide on a fantasy basis to make some point about a bit of commerce that bothers you. That's not weird that's hypocritical, that's ironic, it is many things including exploitative of an actual horrific aspect of the culture here and in Japan.
What will we do if? I ask what have you done when? And the answer is nothing. Actual dead kids-silence. Dead fantasy kids-big OP.
So I pointed out that the inaction of yourself and others in the majority community answers your own question. When teens kill themselves now, nothing much is done, year in and year out. In fact, some straights pretend real suicides are so unworthy of discussion that they want to talk about suicides that have not happened as if they had happened.
I'm sorry, but the facts of actual suicide rates tell us that right now, in the face of real teen suicide, you are talking about your fictional cautionary tale.
If teen suicides worry you, you could be very busy helping to end them. But you make a different choice.

[Logical]

24. Then post the post you want posted and quit whining! n-t

[Bonobo]

28. In point of fact I have spoken to Japanese high school students about suicide.

Have you?

I have lectured three times this past year in a Japanese HS as a guest lecturer about cross-culttural issues and have discussed such things as suicide, being gay and politics.

You know nothing about me.

[Fumesucker]

25. Not everyone who gets bullied is gay

Indeed, not everyone who gets bullied for being gay is even gay in the first place.

There has been a considerable amount of focus on bullying and sexual orientation, that is bullying by individuals.

What the OP is referring to is bullying by the government, it's not really the same thing.

You aren't winning any friends to your cause by becoming irate and attacking someone else who points a different problem or potential problem than your favorite one, the government has in fact ruined lives over offenses that in reality deserved maybe a few hundred hours of public service and restitution of actual harm done.

[mythology]

22. Some would argue that Aaron Swartz has already done so

Although he was busted for breaking into the MIT network and illegally downloading 4 million published articles. He was potentially facing 1 million in fines and more than 35 years in jail when he committed suicide a few days ago.

I know this guy knew the risks because he had been busted for a similar act involving court documents. Is it an unavoidable tragedy? In some ways, absolutely. Because you can't lay the blame for someone's suicide on any one outside party.

I believe it's a combination of factors that put a person in an emotional state to kill themselves. To lay it at the feet of somebody you don't like (the RIAA or MPAA, or in the Swartz case the government) is a copout to try and get an emotional response rather than making a reasoned case that people should have a right to somebody else's work product for free just because the distribution cost is lower than other work products.

Of course the penalty for illegal downloading is high. Very few people who do it are caught and either prosecuted or sued in civil court. If you can't effectively punish all of the people doing an action, you either have to live with it, or create a punishment that will act as a deterrent in the threat its existence.

[Fumesucker]

26. Too bad it doesn't work that way with very highly placed criminals

The low odds of getting caught and punished for huge financial crimes doesn't seem to escalate the penalties in the manner you describe for someone who downloads a few songs.

Perhaps you can explain why your theory of penology doesn't apply to Wall Street and the banksters?

[99Forever]

27. Hey...

... have an idea.

Instead of whining about about something that hasn't happened, you could expend your time and effort educating suicidal leaning teens that stealing copyrighted materials is piracy and can lead to heavy fines/jailtime!

Then you'd be doing something positive, instead of what ever the fuck it was you were attempting to do by starting this thread.

Just a thought.

[Bonobo]

31. You remind me of someone. nt

[99Forever]

33. Do I?

Any reason you aren't saying who that is?

[Bonobo]

34. Yeah I can't remember his screen name.

He used to use a Lennon logo but sounded like the very last guy who should. He had "Time" in his screen name is all I remember.

Anyway, A young man has been charged $675,000 for 30 songs.

Do you think that is an amount of money that is A) reasonable and B) enough hanging over a person's head that it could cause suicide?

[99Forever]

37. This is the one and only User Name I've ever had here.

So, not sure who you might be thinking of. Sorry.

A) Do you thinking stealing other people's work is moral or ethical? Would you not have a huge problem if you found out after doing your work, those that benefited from it decided you just didn't need to be paid?

B) The proximate cause for the fine "hanging over a person's head" was their own illegal action, therefor "the cause of their suicide" was their own misdeed.

[reorg]

46. Some posters are very hard to tell apart

especially if their posts are characterized by

a) complete lack of empathy

b) repetitive use of propaganda phrases

c) arrogance

and could thus just as well be the product of automatons.


Regarding file sharing, Aaron Swartz explained 5 years ago:

[Drew Richards]

29. WTF this just happened or are you unaware?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/13/mit-aaron-swartz_n_2469082.html

[Bonobo]

30. I was aware.

Although in his case it was not precisely over something as minor as a downloaded song.

But yes, it was what spurred my thought on the subject.

But, I thought, since the fines for merely illegally downloading music or movies are so high, it seemed to me likely that it is not going to be the last time such a thing happens.

And so I wrote an OP on it only to find myself attacked by a lot of people for having the AUDACITY to posit a hypothetical.

Lots of persnickety little people on DU these days.

[Bradical79]

36. The original title was very misleading.

I was confused over what the problem was myself until I checked your edit history. No one seems to have a problem with you posting a hypothetical. It should be pretty obvious though that using a title like "Teen kills self over punishment for copyright violations" would cause problems if it didn't actually happen.

[Drew Richards]

45. LOL aint dat da tuooth

[MineralMan]

35. We won't do anything, actually.

We already don't do anything about the many causes of suicide. We just continue to allow the bullying, untreated depression, and other causes of suicide to continue unchecked. Why would this be any different?

[theKed]

38. I agree with you ... it's only a matter of time

That is, if it hasn't happened already and just never hit the national consciousness.
There will be plenty on the side of the Music Industrial Complex, a few on the side of the artists, and a very, very few for neither.

[Ter]

39. I miss the days of Napster

[Orrex]

40. What do we do when people kill themselves after commiting other forms of theft?

[Warren Stupidity]

43. 30 years. For what used to be a civil issue only.

By the way the owners of this public information did not press charges. The prosecutor took it upon himself to throw the book at a person who made a collection of public information public.

But by all means, take the side of privatization and financialization of all of society, backed by the corrupt corporate controlled state.

[Orrex]

44. Looks like I missed the link in the OP. Sorry.

And you're kind of projecting a bit, aren't you? I wrote nothing at all about the "privatization and financialization of all of society," so I don't know why you're taking me to task for that.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. RIP Aaron.

shame on all of you who are clueless about this op.

[Earth_First]

42. +1 n/t

[reorg]

47. he was trying to come up with solutions

while others still haven't figured out the problem ...

So he committed a prank to make people aware of lack of access to scientific publications. Scientists all over the world are honoring him. Even JSTOR (finally) changed their policy. On the part of the prosecutors, though, we hear them mumble "he stole, uh, in some form, uh, blah blah blah." It would be only pathetic had they not pushed him toward death.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/01/14/how-the-governments-prosecution-of-aaron-swartz-pushed-him-toward-death/

We petition the obama administration to:

Remove United States District Attorney Carmen Ortiz from office for overreach in the case of Aaron Swartz.

It is too late to do anything for Aaron Swartz, but the who used the powers granted to them by their office to hound him into a position where he was facing a ruinous trial, life in prison and the ignominy and shame of being a convicted felon; for an alleged crime that the supposed victims did not wish to prosecute.

A prosecutor who does not understand proportionality and who regularly uses the threat of unjust and overreaching charges to extort plea bargains from defendants regardless of their guilt is a danger to the life and liberty of anyone who might cross her path.

Created: Jan 12, 2013, signatures as of Jan 14, 17:04 ET: 16,978

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck

[PoliticAverse]

51. It is now past the 25,000 threshold. n/t