The human rights “success” in Libya

[TomClash]

Note how the internet advocates for the Libyan Civil War are so quiet now. I suppose the mission was accomplished. Kudos to Dipsydoodle for posting the Doctors Without Borders story here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101435606


This is not the first report of serious, systematic abuses in Libya. In July, Human Rights Watch accused NATO-backed rebels of widespread looting, arson and abuse of civilians. Throughout the latter part of 2011, there were numerous reports of black migrant workers being detained without charges, tortured and even executed en masse. In October, a U.N. report detailed widespread lawless detentions and torture; the same month, an Amnesty International report documented “a pattern of beatings and ill-treatment of captured al-Gaddafi soldiers, suspected loyalists and alleged mercenaries in western Libya. In some cases,” the report continued, “there is clear evidence of torture in order to extract confessions or as a punishment.” The incoming President of the U.N. Security Council, South African U.N. Ambassador Baso Sangqu, accused NATO of exceeding the scope of the U.N. Resolution on Libya and called for an investigation into human rights abuses by all sides, including NATO bombers and rebel forces.

. . .

Obviously, the Gadaffi and Saddam regimes were horrible human rights abusers. But the point is that one cannot celebrate a human rights success based merely on the invasion and overthrow of a bad regime; it is necessary to know what one has replaced them with. Ironically, those who are the loudest advocates for these wars and then prematurely celebrate the outcome (and themselves) bear significant responsibility for these subsequent abuses: by telling the world that the invasion was a success, it causes the aftermath — the most important part — to be neglected. There is nothing noble about invading and bombing a country into regime change if what one ushers in is mass instability along with tyranny and abuse by a different regime: typically one that is much more sympathetic to the invading regime-changers.

That last point underscores the other key lesson from these types of invasions. They are almost always sold by appeal to human rights concerns — Iraqi babies pulled from incubators and Saddam’s rape rooms — but that is very rarely their actual objective. When the West invokes human rights concerns to justify an attack on a dictator whom it has long tolerated (and often even supported), that is rather compelling evidence that human rights is the packaging for the war, not the goal. The fact that it is not the goal means more than just another war sold deceitfully based on pretexts: it means that human rights concerns will not drive what happens after the invasion is completed. The materials interests of the invaders are highly likely to be served, but not the human rights of the people of the invaded country. It is still early in the post-Gaddafi age, but those who supported the war in Libya — which (like the war in Iraq) included numerous people who did so out of a genuine, well-intentioned desire to see a vile tyrant vanquished — have a particular responsibility to ensure that the same tyranny is not replicated by the forces supported by the invading armies.

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/26/the_human_rights_success_in_libya/singleton/

[tabatha]

1. No violence is acceptable.

But please do not blame all rebels for the actions of a few.

My experience about revolutions is heavily colored by what happened in South Africa. I am glad Libya is free from Gaddafi just as I am glad that South Africa is no longer under apartheid. No country is perfect.

Here are some of the problems that arose in South Africa after apartheid was over

Crime increased to where South Africa now has the highest rate in the world.
Rape increased to where South Africa now has the highest rate in the world.
Despite the fact that there are laws on the book to recognize gay marriage, lesbians are assaulted and tortured.
Over 3,000 white farmers were murdered by ANC supporters, some horribly so.

Direct experiences of South Africa AFTER apartheid
- One family member was murdered and another shot and nearly died.
- An acquaintance was shot and is now paralyzed for life, yet will not leave South Africa.
- Another family member had a gun jammed into her stomach in a robbery.
- The retirement home where my mother stayed had to build high walls around the property, after more than one burglary occurred, and one old age pensioner was murdered.
- The status in the public hospitals is so bad, that people die there.
- The wife of the author of "Cry, the Beloved Country" fled South Africa after experiencing too much crime.
- I attended a lecture in 1997 on crime in South Africa, where it was concluded that the residents of townships were far more likely to suffer from criminal acts than others. That is, they were victims of their own people.
- Despite that I donated a computer that helped generate jobs in the Eastern Cape, and got an organization to donate money to a school in the Cape.

I could go on about the problems that have surfaced since the end of apartheid, but I know that the root of most of them is from the what happened under apartheid and will take generations to fix.

I abhor the fact that there are problems in Libya, but blaming all of Libyans is like blaming all of the people in the United States for the torture by the Bush administration, and the the horrible practices that go in in US PRISONS TODAY! Why are there no articles about that, and questioning why the civil war should not have taken place?

Btw, it was a South African black who told me that from her observations, whites blame a whole group for the actions of a few, whereas blacks blame an individual for their actions. This is exactly what you are doing.

By that reasoning, South Africa is a total disaster, and was better under apartheid. It was better under apartheid --- for a few, but not for all. I think South Africa is better now, despite the problems - because people no longer live under the fear of the police and the state, which is how people lived under Gaddafi.

And btw, I still post articles about Libya - and also about Syria, where dreadful things are going on, perpetrated by the state. If Syria eventually becomes free, I do not expect it to be perfect either. There will be problems. But as in Libya, where human rights organizations NOW have free access to prisons (they did not under Gaddafi), they will no doubt be able to freely monitor what goes on in Syria when Assad is gone. Not even the Arab League monitors were allowed into Syrian prisons.

So, to re-iterate loud and clear - I am glad that South Africa is free, I am glad that Tunisia is free, I am glad that Libya is free, and I hope soon that Syria is free. Apartheid was a monster, Gaddafi was a monster and Assad is a monster.

There is evil and good in any country (look at the US), but that does not mean that people do not deserve a democracy where their voices can be heard.

[ellisonz]

22. Thank you for sharing.

I do wonder about those who are unable to understand what the struggle for freedom is like and understand how it can feel like a mixed blessing, but still be redemptive. War is a costly, negative affair, but sometimes it must be fought to achieve freedom. It was no coincidence that the Gaddafi clan idolized Hitler...

His idol was Egyptian president and fervent Arab nationalist Gamal Abdel Nasser, and he also variously declared himself a fan of Stalin and Hitler.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j0sy-z9zeol1HopegOhmxv63FoTg?docId=CNG.f4d05c26b74d0f29b3597c574b3e9e9c.b1

Aloha Tabatha.

[Odin2005]

2. I think there is a lot of repressed anger being unleashed in Libya.

People's frustrations with how the country was run were suppressed for decades, and now Libyans are taking out their frustrations on anyone they percieve to be associated with the Gaddafi regime. I am reminded of the anti-collaborator vigilantism that occurred in many places in France in the immediate months following the end of WW2, only on a more vicious scale (source his Tony Judt's book Postwar).


Lets hope this burns out.

[EFerrari]

4. For me, the point is that once the demonized leader was eliminated

Last edited Thu Jan 26, 2012, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

there is little attention being paid in the West to the continued suffering in Libya. It's not at all clear that NATO didn't deliver Libya from the frying pan to the fire.

[tabatha]

5. There is a lot of attention being paid to Libya by the West.

Just not the governments, but by private organizations.

Eric Schmidt of Google was just in Libya.

If you want to follow Libya news, good and BAD (there are three articles on the torture problem), the link below is a pretty good source. They print stories from all different perspectives, correct and incorrect, and the Western press is paying attention.

http://feb17.info/

[EFerrari]

6. That site is one of the worst, if not the worst, propaganda catapulters on the net on Libya. n/t

[tabatha]

7. They have THREE negative articles on Libyan prisons.

Sorry, I have to disagree.

How can it be propaganda when they do not write anything themselves, but post from a wide variety of sources NOT their own?

Try reading before you judge.

[EFerrari]

9. Three whole articles?

lol

And are you seriously asking how this site can be a propaganda peddler without authoring articles, seriously?

As I said, thank you for the referral but no thanks.

[tabatha]

11. They usually post only one article per topic.

Three for a particular topic is high.

[tabatha]

8. These News sources are propagandists?

Reuters
National Post
The Mercury
Magherbia
AFP
UN News Centre
Bloomberg
The National
The Guardian
Todays Zaman
Middle East Online
Wall Street Journal
Routes Online
KUNA
HRW
AJE
Trade Arabia
FT
Times of Malta
Times Online
Khaleej Times
Associated Press
Tripoli Post
The Independent
Sky News

with the most being from Reuters and AFP, whose articles are often negative.

The only source that I would call propagandist would be Magherbia.

Of course there are slants to all news stories.

One has to learn to read a number of both negative and positive articles on a particular topic, to try to get to the truth. To dismiss all of the above as propagandists is sheer narrow-mindedness.

[EFerrari]

10. One would be had one which I haven't.

I think we're done here.

[tabatha]

12. I would agree that there are no more points to be made.

[joshcryer]

21. I've seen far far worse. Consider mathaba.net

Which many Libya detractors posted here on DU for the longest time (until they were banned, for shilling for Gaddafi).

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. I disagree with this too. It's just not true of this site, from what I've seen.

By far the worst propaganda is from bought shills among American 'intelligentsia'. That's documented fact. Gadaffi had quite a PR machine.

[EFerrari]

27. Gadaffi's operation was no match for the Pentagon and theirs.

Just look at the fact that the man was lynched and almost no one in this country even blinked.

And yes, these feb17 people were terrible, just like those fake Libyan youth people on twitter. I especially remember them screaming about black rapists running loose in the streets. They were despicable. And just about every despicable sensational pos story that came out of that kind of site was posted right here without a shred of skepticism.

[joshcryer]

18. I have been following it quite closely.

But since you have me on ignore you probably won't see my post about Libya's successes, and failings, over the past year.

[malaise]

26. 100% correct

History will show yet again that it was all about oil

[tabatha]

13. And on Germany reunification.

"Shortly after reunification Germany experienced a breakdown of law and order. The Rostock-Lichtenhagen pogrom triggered a number of arson attacks on accommodations and homes for asylum seekers. This spread like wildfire. Citizens not professionally involved in politics gathered in round table discussions discussing ways to restore a sense of security. That was the first line of defense so to speak. Civil society finding its voice."

[RZM]

23. As an aside

What happened in the West was child's play compared to what happened in the East. Well over 2 million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers, as well as many others from other countries in the path of their advance, including some that had been victims of the Nazis. High estimates put it at 4 million German women alone. For contrast, there were about 15,000 rapes in the American occupation zone.

Also, roughly 12 million Germans were expelled from their homes and sent packing. It was a key part of what ended up being the largest and most concentrated mass migration in recorded history. It was a confluence of revenge for German crimes, settling the 'German question' once and for all, and shifting borders as a result of the war. Roughly 7 million of the expelled came from prewar German territory that was handed over to the Poles in exchange for the Soviets keeping the portions of Poland they had seized in 1939 in collusion with the Nazis.

So yeah, this kind of thing certainly has precedents.

[tabatha]

3. Why I'm fleeing South Africa - by Anne Paton (widow of Alan Paton)

I am leaving South Africa. I have lived here for 35 years, and I shall leave with anguish. My home and my friends are here, but I am terrified. I know I shall be in trouble for saying so, because I am the widow of Alan Paton.

Fifty years ago he wrote Cry, The Beloved Country. He was an unknown schoolmaster and it was his first book, but it became a bestseller overnight. It was eventually translated into more than 20 languages and became a set book in schools all over the world. It has sold more than 15 million copies and still sells 100,000 copies a year.

He campaigned for Nelson Mandela's release from prison and he worked all his life for black majority rule. He was incredibly hopeful about the new South Africa that would follow the end of Apartheid, but he died in 1988, aged 85. I was so sorry he did not witness the euphoria and love at the time of the election in 1994. But I am glad he is not alive now. He would have been so distressed to see what has happened to his beloved country. (Without Apartheid)

I love this country with a passion, but I cannot live here any more. I can no longer live slung about with panic buttons and gear locks. I am tired of driving with my car windows closed and the doors locked, tired of being afraid of stopping at red lights. I am tired of being constantly on the alert, having that sudden frisson of fear at the sight of a shadow by the gate, of a group of youths approaching—although nine times out of 10 they are innocent of harmful intent. Such is the suspicion that dogs us all.

Among my friends and the friends of my friends, I know of nine people who have been murdered in the past four years. An old friend, an elderly lady, was raped and murdered by someone who broke into her home for no reason at all; another was shot at a garage.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/cry.htm

So, do you think that South Africa should reinstate apartheid?

[sabrina 1]

14. Libya is on the verge of Civil War. Another Imperial disaster.

A once prosperous nation is now mired in violence and cruelty, with millions living in fear, by contrast to how their lives were before the Western invasion. All their social programs gone, and tens of thousands locked up in prisons. Gadaffi is beginning to look like Santa Clause to man Libyans, as was predicted would happen.

Imperial colonialism has never brought anything but violence, poverty, illiteracy and destruction of rights to the countries it invades. And the loss of their resources.

While the people of Libya suffer, the Multi National Corps are there with their mercenary armies and their money bags. They weren't even shy about it either, one of them stating that 'Libya is up for grabs' after the brutal war crime that was the murder of Gadaffi.

Next up, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Somalia. That should nearly complete the wet dreams of the PNAC crowd who have been supporting this, Libya especially, from the beginning.

And as many people pointed out, the NTC was installed by the West, as I heard some of the early protesters say 'Who ARE these people who just came along and took over'? Well, now they know.

[joshcryer]

19. No it's not.

[agentS]

15. short of 10 million UN peacekeepers on the ground

there would be no other way to prevent these problems from occurring.

Gaddafi wins; people die after the war.
NTC wins; people die after the war.
NATO intervenes; people die.
NATO doesn't intervene; people die.

No matter what action or inaction the West took, those dead people were likely to be dead anyway. What matters is the numbers of dead and recurrence of extreme violence.

At this point, it's up to the NTC to solve the problems of their revolution. The Libyans have a lot of work to do- it's up to them to make their own human rights a priority. We CAN do that for them, but if we did, it wouldn't stick after we 'leave'.

[Fool Count]

16. Yeah, sure, people die either way. But multinationals get megaprofits only when...

I wonder what will they do? A hard one here.

[Amonester]

17. People die everywhere anyway.

Every Day. No Santa Claus is going to prevent them from dying.

Death is a part of life, even if we don't like it.

People died in Libya before the violent uprising, during it, and after it.

Except this time, it's not State sponsored.

So it is sort of different.

[joshcryer]

20. What matters, most of all, is Libyan-self-determination.

Just because a few bad apples cause a lot of issues does not necessarily represent the Libyan people as a whole. I'm tired of these baseless generalizations by those who aren't following Libya as closely (not referring to you, I agree with your post for the most part, but I disagree that that's a needed outcome, they must reunify themselves, you cannot force unity on a people).

[Waiting For Everyman]

25. Expecting perfection is a bit premature.

After any war or revolution there are scores to settle. There's no way for outsiders to know which are valid. I'm not excusing it or saying there isn't a problem, just saying that it isn't surprising. It's part of the process of the thing, the only way to get from 'A' to 'B' is to go through the process.

Here in the area where I live, for instance, the American Revolution went on until at least into the 1820's. It isn't over just because it officially ends.