Apple Threats: “Work hard on the job today or work hard to find a job tomorrow.”

[kpete]

Apple’s iPad and the Human Costs for Workers in China - NYTimes.com

Banners on the walls warned the 120,000 employees: “Work hard on the job today or work hard to find a job tomorrow.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all


Sound familiar? The is the wedge that is used to destroy the middle class here. Over there it makes them accept 12-14 hours, 6-7 days a week, sometimes standing the whole time.

The unions here were weakened... Over there they can't have unions.
http://www.seeingtheforest.com/archives/2012/01/sound_familiar.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SeeingTheForest+%28Seeing+The+Forest%29

[HughBeaumont]

1. Ahhhhh, CAPITALISM!

Threats, figurative debt anvils, stress, employee musical chairs, low pay, crap benefits and overwork . . . DAMN, is this a great system or WHAT???!?!!

[former9thward]

24. You think China is capitalist?

Not even close. It is a central command economy run by the Communist Party.

[HughBeaumont]

27. . . . that employs Western capitalistic practices as a volunteer slave state for America.

Spin it however you please - China is the facilitator of modern American capitalistic slavery.

By the way, point in that entire message where I said China was "capitalist". Point to where I said it. Go ahead, I'll wait . . .

[former9thward]

33. If you didn't say it you are playing word games.

The entire OP was about work in China. Not a word about the U.S. So you post 'ahhh capitalism!' You think people can't read?

[white_wolf]

47. Bullshit.

China is as capitalist a country as it comes. To call it a central command economy is ridiculous. If it was a central command economy, Apple wouldn't be allowed to operate there.

[former9thward]

50. By your definition no country has ever been socialist/communist.

Even Lenin had western companies come in after the revolution to operate in the Soviet Union. So I guess Lenin is now a capitalist.

[girl gone mad]

98. China is probably the single most capitalistic country on earth.

You should visit China some time. You'll find that open trade is far more prevalent on the streets of Beijing or Shanghai than in Paris, Tokyo or New York. On many streets, at almost any time of day, people are selling and buying, lending and borrowing. Production for profit and accumulation of capital are central to modern Chinese life. Virtually every interaction is a transaction. Don't be thrown off by the fact that the Chinese government is authoritarian. Capitalism does not require Democracy to thrive. In fact, capitalism seems to be performing far better under a totalitarian regime than it ever did in our Democracy.

[former9thward]

99. I have visited Tibet but not the 'main' portions of China.

I do think traditional free market capitalism needs democracy to do well. Most authoritarian states have low standards of living. Some of what is happening in China is, at least on the Macro level, is somewhat staged. For example China has several basically empty cities which have been built just to keep construction going. That will not end well. http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-chinese-ghost-cities-2010-12

[snagglepuss]

56. Bullshit. They use the term Communist because term fascist has too much baggage.

It is a fascist state in every sense of the word.

[former9thward]

69. Bullshit back at you.

Whatever word you want to use it is not a conventional free market capitalist nation in any respect. BTW communist has as much baggage as fascist.

[JackRiddler]

86. There is no such thing as a "conventional free market capitalist nation"

Capitalism is the sovereignty of capital. Talk of "free market" is in most cases a myth. Real capitalists hate free markets, they like monopolies. Efficiency and competition are often in conflict, in their view. The only competition they like is among laborers, which is why China is so wonderful. In capitalist economies, the state is powerful and intervenes constantly in the service of capital. Capital and the state have always worked together, contrary to "free market" mythology. Economic units strive to maximize profit and externalize cost. The question is whether profits accrue mainly to private or public owners. In China it's the latter, so the one-party dictatorship gets to call itself "communist."

[JackRiddler]

82. China is viewed as ideal by the big US corporations.

Capitalism is not just an ideal set of economic practices, but a world system that China joined long ago. In the huge export sector, the command in "command economy" comes from the multinationals. So tell me, are they communist, or is China capitalist? To them, capitalism means doing any business that makes a profit, whether it involves a dictatorship or not. There has never been a necessary contradiction between the two systems of classic capitalism and the statist capitalism practiced in "communist" countries. The hybrid that has emerged in China combines the worst conditions for labor, a capitalist's dream, with an authoritarian lack of recourse and high efficiency in providing deliverables. Many of the leading capitalists of this country hold up China as a wonderful example, or a threat because they're so much better as "competitors" than lazy Americans who still expect eight-hour days and enough pay to pay some bills. By the way, China has plenty of room for private ownership, including at state enterprises where nearly 50 percent of a firm can be owned by private investors, and the slogan adopted to accompany the shift to capitalism in the 1980s went, "To Get Rich Is Glorious."

[former9thward]

85. There is no doubt China has a complicated economy.

But I am not going to join the hate all things China crowd. When I was growing up I used to hear about the starving in China. And millions did starve to death during Mao's Great Leap Forward. There is no one starving in China anymore. So that is an improvement. Also every year tens of millions of people are joining the middle class in China which is improving their quality of life.

[JackRiddler]

87. I don't hate China and...

past problems there do not necessarily justify the current conditions. To use an analogy, it's not like the past of slavery in the US justifies the present status quo, and it also doesn't follow that the present status quo is the only alternative to slavery, or came into existence as a means of overcoming slavery. Now substitute "starvation" for slavery and "China" for US.

[onehandle]

43. China is neither Communist or Capitalist. They are Fascist. nt

[Earth_First]

2. How do these people sleep at night?

...on 900 thread-count Egyptian cotton sheets, THAT's how!

DISGUSTED!

[JHB]

66. "On a pile of money, vit many beautiful vimmen"

/Rainier Luftwaffe Wolfcastle

[onehandle]

3. A few companies who's products are made in the same factories as Apple's by the same workers:

Acer Inc.
Amazon.com
ASRock
Asus
Barnes & Noble
Cisco
Dell
EVGA Corporation
Hewlett-Packard
Intel
IBM
Lenovo
Logitech
Microsoft
MSI
Motorola
Netgear
Nintendo
Nokia
Panasonic
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony Ericsson
Toshiba
Vizio

All electronics, be it in your computer, your phone, your car, or even your refrigerator, are overwhelmingly made in China, in the same factories that Apple uses.

Wish it was otherwise.

[kpete]

4. thanks so much for that list!

cutting and pasting
to share,

peace, kpete

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

6. I find it troubling that the outrage always falls on Apple.

Not because they're one of the very few and possibly only companies making even a small effort to improve conditions, which is true, but because it defers the outrage. It becomes a stick for people to rant about one 'evil' company when the problem is much, much bigger. You get a lot of intellectually lazy people - and again, I don't blame them really, it's just the way our society has been conditioned, it's why headlines and the first few lines are always the least revealing but the most sensational - who see the headline and not much else and therefore it becomes ingrained that an endemic issue, something which is ingrained in our culture, something that we all exploit in one way or another and trivialises it by slapping it on to one company.

You can't help but feel that from author to editor to reader, it's more about knocking Apple down than really giving a shit about what is acceptable in China and how so many multi-national corporations utilise the facilities. That's sad, because if the argument was reframed as "A huge, huge number of our goods - including most technological items - are made in China under working conditions that we wouldn't find acceptable", perhaps we could make inroads into at least pressuring our own companies into ensuring a better life for the workers employed by its suppliers rather than making it an excuse for the credulous to rant against a single entity.

[Snake Alchemist]

7. I thought Apple was supposed to "Think Different"? nt

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

12. That's a lazy answer and you know it.

You can do better than that. You're not going to solve the problem by huffing and puffing mindlessly about one company and a 15 year old advertising campaign. Not when the vast majority of the world's technological goods have 'made in China' stamped on them. I'm not sure why we should expect Apple to be exclusive in avoiding these places and ending up much less competitive as a result.

Change the game, then we can shame the players.

[Snake Alchemist]

14. I generally blame the biggest, most powerful company.

They hold the most sway.

[Art_from_Ark]

64. If you look at that list, you'll find lots of "big, powerful" companies

like Intel, IBM and Microsoft.

[Snake Alchemist]

67. Yes, but Apple is the biggest customer and most valuable company in the world. nt

[snagglepuss]

57. Are you shilling for Apple?

[LanternWaste]

29. Sounds like branding rather than a philosophy...

Sounds like branding rather than an actual ethics...

[gopiscrap]

13. Not me

I feel that ALL business is evil...fuck every business owner...capitalism is designed to part you from you money at any cost what ever....

[twitcher]

19. back at ya

I am a self-employed graphic designer. I don't make much money, but I own my own business. Yes, when I do work for people I do it for money, hoping to pay my mortgage, buy groceries, etc. I don't feel evil for doing so, and I'm rather mystified by your hysterical attitude. Fuck you too!

[gopiscrap]

53. I stand by what I say

The only noble work IMHO is either orking for the government or for a charitable agency and I don't appreciate being said fuck you to...if you notice I didn't say it specifically to an induvidual.

[twitcher]

54. sure

You just paint with a broad brush. You say fuck you to tens of millions at a time.

[hughee99]

75. So the CIA, homeland security and department of motor vehicles is "nobel work"

Home care nurses, math tutors, and waitresses and can go fuck themselves?

You may not appreciate being said "fuck you" to, but if this is your attitude when you interact with such people, you may eventually get used to it.

[snooper2]

96. ROFL ROFL ROFL

you made a funny

[DonCoquixote]

65. so

the kid with the lemonade stand is evil?

Anyone who works is evil?

[JackRiddler]

89. The kid with the lemonade stand is a mythic creature...

more often invoked in propaganda than actually seen on the street.

But definitely not evil.

Except maybe for this one:

[DonCoquixote]

90. as someone who ran a hot dog stand

in college, I can tell you it is not.

[JackRiddler]

92. Sure, we've (almost) all worked for a living...

But your example is college age, not children, and furthermore something that exists. I've seen hot dog stands. But I've spent years in the kind of suburbs where lemonade stands are supposed to exist in real life, but I've never seen one. Have you?

[DonCoquixote]

95. The point is

When someone says ALL business is evil, I have every right to ask if that person includes the vendors seeling hot dogs, as well as the fortune 500.

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. It's because progressives regularly defend Apple, explicitly or implicitly.

Apple is commonly regarded as a hip, progressive company.

Question: How many tech companies have Al Gore on their board?

So really it's a matter of EXTREME HYPOCRISY on the part of people who can usually be relied upon to support human and worker rights.

The hypocrisy extends to other areas: Apple has almost $100B on its books, and is now the most valuable company in the world, yet somehow it's pristine. Meanwhile Walmart, which employs hundreds of thousands in this country, is sneered at.

Furthermore, Apple products are introduced and refined at breakneck speed, creating unnecessary demand, and therefore stripping the earth of natural resources used to make rechargeable batteries, etc. Taking OIL out of the ground is a bad thing, but taking metal out of the earth to make toys for hipsters? Noooooo problem.

It might interest you to know, in addition, that Greenpeace has ranked Apple below other tech producers in environmental friendliness.

In sum, Apple is as bad, if not worse, than most of the companies you would use your IPhone or IPad to read about.

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

23. You have a real chip on your shoulder about "hipsters"

Your extreme snobbery is tremendously grating and a pretty ugly prejudice.

Apple products are used by "hip, progressive" people because they are nice to use, work well and are well designed. There is some great software. There is no "extreme hypocrisy", I'm sure plenty of these people would like the world to be a better place and contribute in myriad ways, but unless they refuse to use computers or mobile phones or televisions entirely and only drive American made cars and boycott almost every shop going and never watch a movie containing any of these products or which made use of any equipment built in these places in the production process or listen to almost any music, well, then they're not perfect.

I don't think that makes them hypocritical, though I do think that people who scream like a deranged banshee about people using certain products and, all stiff fingered and red faced, launch themselves at their keyboards to repeatedly make this poin using their computer which is almost certainly comprised of a number of China-made components, I think that's pretty hypocritical.

Your Walmart example is ridiculous, because Apple too employ plenty of people in America, both in Cupertino and at their myriad stores. Like Walmart and every other big company they = shock! horror! - use Chinese suppliers for manufacturing purposes. That is a problem with the entire system. For what it is worth, I don't think that any Walmart worker should feel ashamed of their employment, and I find it pretty disgusting when I read that they should. The top brass are another matter entirely, though that goes for just about any major corporation.

"Apple products are introduced and refined at breakneck speed, creating unnecessary demand"

I'm not even sure you understood why you wrote this or what you mean by it, but I'll try and figure it out. They introduce products at a SLOWER rate than most tech companies. One or two new revisions of their computers each year, one phone and one tablet; they're their major products. That they are very popular means that they make a lot of their products. They sell a lot of iPhones, yes? Samsung sell a lot of smart phones (I think more than Apple worldwide in Q3 last year), but they have a wide range, so they're all different, they all have rechargeable batteries! Oh my!

You sell a lot, you make a lot. That's how it goes.

I'd also like to point out that Apple actually climbed to #4 on Greenpeace's tech rankings, so while technically they have "ranked Apple below other tech producers" you were obviously hoping to score a point by referencing their previous low ranking and ignoring their current one.

[twitcher]

32. my experience…and a thought or two

When I bought my first mac in 1986, I was spending thousands of dollars with typesetting houses for design projects. The mac revolutionized the graphics industry, put many big companies out of business and made it possible for a guy like me to get into business for myself. There was no PC option at that time. So I bought software for the mac and never saw a good reason to spend more money to switch to PCs years later (because of my investment in software). I have managed to use my macs for about 5 years on average before upgrading to a newer machine. I'm still using a 2004 model for my scanning station. The only time I ever took a mac in for repair (my wife's out of warranty iMac) the Apple Store said it could cost as much as $800 depending on what they found. They charged me $18 to replace an internal cable and installed a bigger hard drive I had brought in for free.
I try not to get into the Mac/PC flame wars and built a PC (from parts that probably came from a Foxconn or similar factory) to use use as a print server - for me they are tools. My experience with Apple has been a good one, but I don't feel like a fanboy or hipster or devil for using Apple products.
I would love to see working conditions improve in China, but I can't afford to abandon all of my tools in protest - it's hard enough to get by the last few years as it is. My instinct tells me that the growth of technology (computers, mobile phones, internet) will do more to advance democracy and human rights worldwide than any force we've ever seen. Let's push for cleaner and safer manufacturing processes, but not lose sight of the role the advancement of technology can play in creating fairer economies and governments by making information available to everyone.

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

41. Great offering.

One of the best posts to be found on this topic, I think.

[snagglepuss]

60. Increasing democracy. That is more computer/internet industry propaganda,

merely consider the level of censorship in China

[twitcher]

72. arab spring?

Do you think being able to witness what went on in Iran during the uprisings was meaningful? Or Syria? Those governments are trying hard to contain information and it gets out anyway. How many youtube videos of police misconduct have you seen from the US? I think we're getting a better picture of what is really going on because of the number of cameras and the ability to share images and information like never before. I remember seeing video of three cops during OWS in 2 vids - one vid they were in uniform, the next the same three were dressed up like protesters infiltrating the crowd. I think the more people are aware of what is really happening, the more likely it is that something can be done about it.

[snagglepuss]

76. An anomoly that will be corrected. Twitter has stated it will censor

individual countries and other companies will follow.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002229310

[Snake Alchemist]

34. How many people does Walmart employ in the US compared to Apple?

Couldn't people send a message to tech companies by not upgrading their iPhones with each iteration or camping out in lines for days before each release? When that happens it is less of a product and more of a cultish status symbol.

[REP]

35. Apple employees don't need to apply for food stamps, unlike WalMart employees

Apple employees also have full health, life, dental and disability insurance coverage. Can't say the same about WalMart employees.

[Snake Alchemist]

36. So Apple has no part-time employees?

And that makes them better?

[Romulox]

40. That's because most of Apple's employees (subcontractors) are Overseas. Apple actually pays LESS.

[twitcher]

46. OK

I don't disagree - I got my first iPhone 3 months ago, my third mobile phone ever. I'll probably keep it till it breaks or becomes so obsolete that it's practically unusable. It's hard to blame Apple for masses lining up to buy their products though. And at the risk of actually sounding like a fanboy, the iPhone has really changed my lifestyle. My bird field guide is on my phone now along with bird calls - much easier to learn bird songs and no books or CDs to drag around. I can count birds in the field and post the data to a national database very simply. I can see potential for much improved data on bird populations and ranges. I wouldn't have dreamed of this a few years ago. These things don't matter to most people, but for me…I like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco#cite_note-12

In the US, eighty-five percent of Costco's workers have health insurance, compared with less than fifty percent at Walmart and Target. I shop at Costco because it is my understanding the pay and benefits are better than Walmart. I don't have the data, but I have the impression that pay and benefits would be better working for Apple than at Walmart. I concede Walmart employs more people. Foxconn employs over a million people.

[snagglepuss]

58. Bwahahahaha. "An ugly perjudice about hipsters". That is effing hysterical. Don't ever

visit unhappyhipster.com.

[LanternWaste]

31. Cloa Wars, Part 2

Coca-Cola fans responded with the same dismissive and melodramatic rhetoric against Pepsi in the eighties. The branding wars were fun to watch then also-- each side denigrating the other rather than working on themselves...

[Romulox]

42. Human rights abuses are similar to "the cola wars"? It boggles the mind. nt

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

51. No one actually said that.

They might have inferred that the ridiculous hatred of Apple for using business practices employed by companies whose products we all continue to buy is a little bit silly and a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the bigger picture, but I'm sure that you're not stupid enough to have missed that.

[Romulox]

71. Um, "somebody" said that, (minus the spelling error.) It may be unflattering, but your claim is

counter to reality.

[joshcryer]

61. I find it troubling that the largest exploiter of this situation is Apple...

...and it is repeatedly diminished here on DU.

If you want to "pressuring our own companies into ensuring a better life for the workers employed by its suppliers" then you should welcome criticism of Apple, the largest and most profitable Foxconn purchaser. It's one thing to be critical of some single mom buying a Dell computer at Wal-Mart for $300 which is around $50 or less over the manufacture cost, it's an entirely other thing to be critical of people who buy $600 phones which are $400 more than the manufacture cost. That's the equivalence you're trying to make here.

All of the other manufacturers do not have their "cool consumerism" ad campaign surrounding them, they don't have the elitist attitude that comes as a prerequisite for fans of said technology. You go and get a cheap ass motherboard off of Newegg from Foxconn, and you pay $50 for it, maybe $10 more than it costs to make the thing, you are not in the same category as those who pay $400 more for a piece of technology made in a similar environment.

The company that is charging $10 over the cost of manufacture is just staying afloat, keeping the company moving, but certainly not padding peoples IRAs or padding stock portfolios. The company that is charging $400 over the cost of manufacture is a robber baron who could trivially share the wealth if only those myriad in the process actually gave a crap. Instead it's all about money, profit, and Apple has an army of defenders who will run around using all sorts of justifications that completely ignore the ridiculous margins that Apple has.

[JackRiddler]

88. Tough for Apple. It's a deserving target and a good choice in PR terms.

I do not see people here ignoring the other corporations that take advantage of the Chinese forced-labor factory towns.

And I wonder why anyone would be very upset about something as trivial as the damage to Apple's overhyped brand, when we are in fact talking about forced-labor factory towns.

Written on a Macintosh computer!

[Snake Alchemist]

9. How much cash on hand do those companies currently have?

I thought Apple was supposed to "Think Different"?

[MattBaggins]

28. Thanks I was feeling bad but now I see it's OK and excusable.

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

30. NO one excused anything

Just pointed that a huge number of corporations use Foxconn for manufacturing and lazily making them out to be a branch of Apple only puts the spotlight on one company instead of addressing the fundemental reliance we have on China in just about every area of commercial manufacturing - it's not just tech either, far from it.

[ecstatic]

37. Amazon makes products?

And can you share your source? Thanks!

[onehandle]

38. Kindles are made by Foxconn. Also, Amazon sells a lot of electronic accessories as 'Amazon Basics.'

All made in China.

Under 'Major Customers:'

Foxconn manufactures products for companies including:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

[ecstatic]

39. Thanks nt

[Logical]

78. You are really a fanboy I guess!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

5. How soon will some company executive think of posting that slogan in this country?

[Brickbat]

10. The attitude is rampant, even here on DU. "It's their company, they can run it how they want!"

"If you don't like it, you can find another job!"

"It's crappy, yes, but what else are you going to do in this economy?"

"I'd be happy just to have a job, even if I had to look at that banner every day!"

[MountainLaurel]

18. They may not be posting it, but the sentiment is there

And has been for ages. A couple examples of how it works in the U.S.: We've been told repeatedly in our office that we need to function as if we could lose our position any day in cost-cutting measures. (We're a support group in a hospital system and thus provide no actual income to the organization.) Also indicative, a few years ago a coworker of Mr. Laurel's dared to come in to the office at 10 am after not leaving until 4 am the night before (yes, 6 hours earlier). The HR manager reminded him that she has a stack of 100 resumes on her desk of people wanting to work for that organization (a specialized think tank in DC where all of the work was done by 20-something master's students while the names of the bigwigs actually went on the papers).

American workers may not be housed in dormitories by the hundreds of thousands, but let's not kid ourselves that things are that much better over here.

[Brickbat]

8. If the label says "made in China," I assume it was made under conditions such as these, no matter

what the product is. Big names get the attention, of course, but if a multi-bajillion-dollar company is fine putting its name on products made in these conditions, what is some two-bit company that sells stuff at K-mart, Target or wherever fine with?

"Made in China" = "made by slaves."

[Zalatix]

63. Yup, otherwise their goods would cost too much to sell here.

[Brickbat]

70. Made by slaves = huge profits.

Outsourcing doesn't result in lower prices, just bigger profits.

[gopiscrap]

11. all businesses that are allowed to sell in the US

Should be banned from allowing any manufacturing overseas or if they do they should be assessed a 100% tariff

[Javaman]

15. Yes, in china at foxxconn...

where they make not just only apple products by many products used my many other manufacturers.

where is the outrage over those companies as well?

Major customersFoxconn manufactures products for companies including:

(country of headquarters in parentheses)

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[27]
Apple Inc. (United States)[28]
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[29]
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[28]
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[30]
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. Fort Tu Quoque - home to the Defend Apple Brigade. nt

[Javaman]

20. No, I don't defend apple, I expose all that are guilty.

apple is the easy target, it takes actual work to show there is more here than just apple.

And by your comment, are you then defending this other corporations practices?

They all need to be held accountable. or do you only care to blame only those you don't like or care for?

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

25. She has a real obsession with Apple and a disturbingly negative view of the "idiots" and "hipsters"

who use their products.

It's pretty hardcore and using solid rationale to dispute her ranting, Tea Party-style talking points is met with a changing of the goal posts and another response with more holes in its logic than swiss cheese.

I think for a lot of people it's about scoring points against certain companies. You're never going to get anywhere with this problem if you single out rather than sit down with a clear head and push the fact that it's become a way of life for the western world to use Chinese suppliers in so many circumstances, and on a huge, expansive range of different products. Making it about one company ignores the bigger picture and really does not end up helping anyone, other than the egos of those who have a real hard-on for hatred of that particular organisation.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

44. "He" has a real talent for strawmen arguments. nt

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

45. Where is the straw man?

I'm not seeing any in my posts. I am sick of certain people responding in an insulting way with baseless ad hominem attacks.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

48. Someone starts a marijuana thread. He comes around talking about made up posts

of people who claim weed is healthier than water. Somebody says the situation in Cuba is not exactly what our government claims. He then comes out talking about "why don't you move there if it's such a worker's paradise?". He's even doing it here claiming that pointing out that other companies do what Apple does and they're defending slave labor. Need any other examples?

Edit:
Re-reading your post. I didn't mean you. I meant the dude you were talking about. I was adding to your comments.

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

49. Oh, okay!

Thanks for clarifying.

Over the course of a few threads responding to this individual my responses may have gotten a bit testy, but I didn't think they were too unreasonable.

[Javaman]

52. nt

[joshcryer]

62. Kindle Fire, cost to build, $202. Cost to buy? $199.

iPhone 4S, cost to build? $188. Cost to buy? $680.

Kindle Fire:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0051VVOB2

http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/News/Pages/Amazon-Kindle-Fire-Costs-$201-70-to-Manufacture.aspx

iPhone 4S:

http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/News/Pages/iPhone-4S-Carries-BOM-of-$188,-IHS-iSuppli-Teardown-Analysis-Reveals.aspx

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16875100034

Tell you what, I'll get outraged over Kindle Fire when they start charging almost $500 more than they cost to make.

What's even more outrageous is that companies like Amazon sell them a bit cheaper than they cost to make because it profits them to sell books on their device. Meanwhile Apple has 1) music 2) app store 3) exclusive rights with phone companies, which means that they could also sell it at cost to lock in their customers. But they don't even have to do that because they have a rabid fanbase that will defend the most exploitive behavior any company has ever participated in since the robber barons of old.

[Javaman]

68. So you worry less about people and more about price.

very nice.

while apple does make a huge profit, it doesn't make them any more evil than some other corporation using the same facility and the same people working the same long hours doing the same miserable work.

apple uses it's name to dupe millions of gullible first world people, while other corporations don't have the name to sell their gewgaws at outragious prices. And frankly, the kindle being sold at a loss, is pretty stupid.

So you blame apple for charging more rather than the mouth breathing masses clammering for their products? Who, in turn, don't think about how the the things they buy are made?

that's some bizarre logic.

[joshcryer]

80. The single largest indicator of labor fairness is price / labor ratio.

I suppose you have no idea about union / labor relationships and how labor should be allowed to get the full product of their labor.

The Kindle being sold at a loss is very smart business, it's one of the most popular book readers out there. The videogame consoles, likewise, sell at a loss when they first launch, because the console manufactures get licensing fees (kinda like how Apple gets 30% for your Apps and $50 a year I think just to be a developer).

Yes, you blame apple for charging more than their competitors because they're the ones making the most profit, they're the ones getting the best benefit from the exploitation, not that motherboard manufacturer who has supremely low margins and who would go out of business if their motherboards weren't bought for a few quarters in a row.

I do not blame consumers for being consumers, I am a consumer advocate. I think everyone should be able to have something like an iPhone, and that could be possible if we didn't have corporations making extreme profits on such low cost labor.

[Javaman]

94. So one of the most popular book readers "of all time" is being sold at a loss is good business.

you lost me after that.

Video console sold at 350 a pop when they first are introduced are not sold at a loss, who told you that? Give me a link that proves that assertion.

Whether you under sell your product or over sell your product, both companies are using slave labor, trying to mince the concept that one company is better than another in their labor practices because one charges less for their product is complete baffoonery.

I blame conumers, I blame them because they have allowed themselves to be called consumers instead of citizens. I blame consumers because they have bought in the complete propaganda of gross consumption. We are ignorant and we are willingly so.

While you might believe that everyone should have an iphone, I believe that being a responsible citizen comes first.

Look we will disagree and frankly arguing the benefits of who commits worse crimes against the labor population of china is complete stupidity. These people in these plants, whether you like it or not, make products for all high tech companies. And the corporations all share in the blame regardless of their profits.

Until they are all held reponsible, nothing will change. Just because apple is now on the hot seat, doesn't absolve the other companies from their gross neglect. Infact they probably see it as opportunity to make more money off the back of these people in these plants.

You may now reply, but frankly, these kinds of ridiculous discussions exhaust me to no end. Putting profit before people is disgusting.

[joshcryer]

100. Erm, it's common business practice and it's perfectly legal, and smart.

Losing $2 on a Kindle Fire is very good business practice, they're assuring their place in the market, and their name share. Sony did it to beat HD-DVD with Bluray. This is highly uncontroversial.

Sony was losing big money on PS3: http://www.pcworld.com/article/127906/sony_losing_big_money_on_ps3_hardware.html

Even the 360 was losing money: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140383.html

Nintendo Wii was the only console this past generation to not lose money, but it was based upon Gamecube technology.

I do not put profit before people, but by defending Apple as you are unabashedly doing, it appears that you do. I was pointing out a reasonable situation where profit on exploited labor is not as bad with other companies, thus we should go after the companies who have the worst track record. Undeniable it is Apple, a company who has massive margins, and who feigns a blind eye to these business practices despite projecting a clean, feel good consumerism.

Citizens buy into the Apple-religion, making them consumers. I don't fault them for having faith in a consumer product or line or products or even a company. I pity them for being immoral callous defenders of the worst that society has created.

As Mike Daisey said about the conditions there, "People wish we had 'handmade' stuff. They say "nothing is hand made anymore." Let me tell you. Everything that you have and use is handmade."

And we should take the heat off Apple, the most profitable and exploitive company, why?

[twitcher]

73. huh?

My iPhone 4S cost me $200.

[Javaman]

77. He bought his when it first came out. LOL nt

[joshcryer]

79. LOL, you paid for a contract.

That contract paid the full $700+ for the phone, I assure you.

[twitcher]

81. yes

$30 per month for the data package for a two year contract = 720 for 2 years of data service. It would seem stranger to me to buy the iPhone without a contract and not have access to the services that a contract gives you (though I wouldn't call it cheap!). I dropped my land lines at the same time and my cost is the same as it was before, and honestly I feel like I have much more functionality than with my previous situation.

[joshcryer]

83. Current plans for two years that I see are between $1320 to $3240.

They may have actually cut you the price of the phone, possibly $200 of that $720 paid the rest of the phone (so Apple "only" doubled their profit).

[twitcher]

84. Apple IS making money

The $30/mo. data plan is on top of whichever standard mobile package you choose.
I believe any smartphone requires a data package - the 16G iPhone 4S is cheaper to purchase ($199 from Verizon) than a Droid Razr or Galaxy Nexus by Samsung. (though not 4G)
I get the impression Apple gets more from the carriers like ATT & Verizon than the other smartphone makers do (Motorola, Samsung, etc). As a consumer, I'm not sure it costs more to use Apple versus other smartphones.
When AT&T got the exclusive rights to iPhone initially, they were reportedly giving Apple $150-$200 per phone (bounty) and $9/mo. from the service fees - around $416 per iPhone over a 2 year contract, PLUS the initial sale price to AT&T. Serious money. Apple has lowered their price structure since then and made serious increases in market share.

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/11/04/10-percent-of-us-mobile-phones-are-iphones-apple-earns-half-of/

[Honeycombe8]

91. Kindle makes its $ on sales of books, I think. I bought a Kindle below cost @ $85....

it's the Kindle Keyboard 3G-wifi. Schwing! Amazon pays the monthly fee for the 3G cell phone tower service. It's hoping to make its $ on sales of books, and I bought the version that has advertising, so it makes $ that way.

[Enrique]

21. instead of unions and worker rights

they have a police state, and suicide nets.

[raouldukelives]

22. Every buck stuck in Wall St.

Is a vote for these practices to continue and expand. This is our future, our families and loved ones futures. I am not down with it. Fuck Wall St.

[blasto]

26. You mean "Cisco Threats" right?

I knew those oily bastards were up to no good.

[just1voice]

55. China owns 26% of all foreign held securties, maybe the U.S. govt...

should stop doing business with a slave labor country altogether? Nah, 1/2 the people in the U.S. don't care about slavery, torture, worldwide banking crimes or anything else really, especially if it puts money in their pockets.

[agentS]

59. Apple and other tech firms better start to "Think Different"

about Foxcomm's labor practices. after all, dead and striking employees do not produce products on deadline...

Didn't Foxcomm have a couple of serious accidents and a labor dispute in the past year? How much longer can Foxcomm continue to reliably make products without a production-shutting incident (like an explosion)? Can Apple/etc count on Foxcomm in the long term?

We as consumers of tech products can make our voices heard, so we shouldn't give up and just accept the status quo. It's a marathon- not a sprint.

[undeterred]

74. Over here if you try to start a union you will suddenly find yourself unemployed.

[Rex]

93. Things like this really make me, an Agnostic, hope

for some kind of Hell. That way the paymasters can go from sleeping on piles of money every night...to sleeping on shards of broken glass every night.

[Zoeisright]

97. They are a ROTTEN company to work for.

Screw them.

[Atman]

101. An Apple thread a day keeps the...

...other 16 daily "Apple sux" threads away.

Oh, except it doesn't. They just keep on coming, with not a new word to offer.

[bluestate10]

102. The saying does not mean what you are trying to make it.

Even the most progressive business owners will have employees understand the each of their days at work need be focused on producing excellent results. Competitors take advantage of sloppy work, that advantage in the hands of competitors ultimately leads to workers losing their jobs.