Turns out, the banks only SAID your mortgage was paid off.

[dixiegrrrrl]

Reuters) - "In July 2009, Roy and Sheila Bowers refinanced the mortgage on their suburban ranch home in Topeka, Kansas. The couple wanted to take advantage of the low interest rates that were all the rage at the time.
But what the Bowers never imagined was that their old loan, the one Wells Fargo told them was paid off, would resurrect itself, trashing their credit report, scotching their son's student loans and throwing the whole family into foreclosure. All, they say, even though they didn't miss a single mortgage payment."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/26/us-usa-housing-mortgage-reincarnation-idUSTRE80P0SJ20120126

Key excerpt:
"More and more, homeowners say that mortgages they thought were dead and buried are springing back to life, sometimes haunting them all the way into foreclosure.

"It's the most egregious manifestation of an industry that's seriously broken," said Ira Rheingold, a lawyer who is the executive director of the National Association of Consumer Advocate.

Diane Thompson, an attorney with the National Consumer Law Center, says she has defended hundreds of foreclosure cases, and in nearly all of them, the homeowner was not in default. "The record-keeping on the part of the mortgage servicers is not to be trusted.""

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. Holy crap!

We did a in house refi with Wells Fargo last yr. I am freakin' righ now.

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. Sadly, you have reason to be.

We have a BOA mortgage that originated from Countrywide.
Because of all the mass fraud ( theft, really) I have NO idea if we will ever get a legal, legitimate title to the house,
or a proper recording of a paid off mortgage, when the time comes
or even
if I won't suddenly get a foreclosure notice even tho we have made all payments on time.

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. I wonder if we 'homeowners' can get any info that would let us know if we might

be facing this before it goes to foreclosure.

Oh and I don't suppose there is anything Obama can do about this either? I keep forgetting that he is NOT A KING!

[Lionessa]

3. Yep, when I filed bankruptcy I made sure to note that the abandonment of the property

to CitiMortgage was "disputed" due to 4 assignments of deed from four previous bank holders of the note had never been produced nor filed at the state level.

WHICH byw, means that all those filing fees that the state/county should have received were also waylayed, another way bankster avoid paying taxes, not just income taxes.

[LiberalAndProud]

4. I'm having difficulty keeping the tinfoil hat at bay.

The entire crisis stinks of conspiracy to confiscate property. I think there just may be extraordinary evidence to support that extraordinary claim.

[laundry_queen]

5. ITA.

I won't say that thought hasn't crossed my mind before - I think there was a thread back on DU2 about how all the newscasts were having segments on the wonderful option of renting and how the timing seemed...suspicious. I'm right with you.... Back to the days of feudalism is what the rich want, I suppose.

[BrendaBrick]

35. On renting...

I remember a time when there was no such thing as rentals for furniture & appliances etc like today. Also, I seem to recall that it used to be quite rare for an individual to lease a vehicle. A quick search on the rent-to-own industry shows this:

"Consumer Protection Issues

A number of consumer protection concerns have been raised about the rent-to-own industry by consumer advocates. The areas of concern have included the prices charged by the industry (which can be two to three times retail prices, and sometimes more), the treatment of customers during the collection of overdue rental payments, the repossession of merchandise after customers have paid substantial amounts towards ownership, the adequacy of information provided to customers about the terms and conditions of the rental agreement and purchase option, and the disclosure of whether merchandise is new or used. Consumer advocates also have argued that rent-to-own transactions are really credit sales, not leases, and should be subject to federal and state consumer credit laws.

Currently, rent-to-own transactions are not specifically regulated by federal law, either by the Truth-in-Lending Act (TILA) or the Consumer Leasing Act (CLA). Federal legislation that would specifically regulate rent-to-own transactions has been proposed several times in recent years. Some of the proposed legislation would apply federal and state credit laws to the rent-to-own industry, while other proposed legislation would regulate rent-to-own transactions as leases.

Forty-six states currently have rent-to-own laws that regulate rent-to-own transactions in a manner similar to leases, mandating a variety of disclosures and other requirements. The state laws generally have been supported by the industry but opposed by consumer advocates who believe that rent-to-own transactions should be treated as credit sales. Currently, no state has a rent-to-own law that specifically regulates rent-to-own transactions as credit sales. But courts in several states, most notably Wisconsin, Minnesota, and New Jersey, have ruled that rent-to-own transactions are credit sales and subject to state laws governing credit sales. Vermont does not regulate rent-to-own transactions as credit sales, but does require disclosure of the “effective-APR.”

A key factual issue in the debate over whether rent-to-own transactions are sales or leases has been the extent to which rent-to-own customers purchase the rented merchandise. The industry has consistently maintained that only 25 to 30 percent of rent-to-own merchandise is purchased, and that the rest is returned to the dealer after a relatively short rental duration. Some consumer advocates have presented a sharply different view, maintaining that most rent-to-own transactions result in the purchase of the rented merchandise."

Source: http://www.ftc.gov/reports/renttoown/rtosummary.shtm

I think some similarities can be drawn here in relation to homes, vehicles, furniture & appliances in that this disturbing trend suggests *non-ownership* all the way around!

[dixiegrrrrl]

6. I have no doubt, meself.

When you realize that the collusion has to be massive and widespread, and add that to the huge privatizing of almost every element of society....

[LiberalAndProud]

12. What to make of it all?

[div class="excerpt" style="border: solid 1px #cccccc; border-radius:0.5385em; box-shadow: 3px 3px 3px #cccccc inset, 1px 1px 1px #cccccc;"]http://journalstar.com/business/agriculture/farm-lending-competition-is-ferocious/article_045ae134-99b6-5731-894b-e0342b83066c.html
Farm lending competition is ferocious

-snip-
"If I can get the rate right and buy the property right, I'd borrow millions every day," said Harder, who is expanding his corn and soybean plots with a 3.35 percent, variable-rate loan from a U.S. Farm Credit System bank. "I'm kind of a gambler anyway or else I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing."
-snip-

The average value of an acre of U.S. farmland reached a record $2,350 in 2011, the Department of Agriculture said in August, climbing from $737 in 1980. Record-setting land sales have occurred in many farm states, including Nebraska. The state's irrigated farmland values in the third quarter of last year were up 40 percent from a year earlier; nonirrigated land, up 38.3 percent; ranchland, up 26 percent, according to Federal Reserve data.

The land rally was cited in March 2011 by Sheila Bair as a potential risk for farm banks. Bair, then chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., said the "steep rise" in farmland could cause instability in the system.

Investors ranging from hedge-fund managers to Harvard's endowment are betting on farmland as food prices rise.

[riderinthestorm]

15. I'm in the middle of refinancing our farm right now. We're 40 miles west of Chicago

so pretty much prime farmland that's still well within development reach of the city. The farm was appraised 5 years ago for a re-fi we did then. The appraiser just came last week and we're waiting the results. I'll be very curious to see the difference in value (if anything)

[Responder3]

26. Good luck!

A friend of mine just lost his.

[riderinthestorm]

27. Oh man, so sorry to hear about your friend. We'd be devastated if we lost our farm.

I just can't imagine. It becomes your life since you are so immersed in the daily life and rhythms of this business - it becomes 'more' than just a job.

Welcome to DU!

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. See this, then get more tinfoil:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002224855

[Uncle Joe]

9. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, dixiegrrrrl.

[kestrel91316]

10. If I ever own a home, it's gonna be a teensy little fixer-upper in someplace

with a depressed economy and I will pay cash. I will NEVER EVER trust a bank about a mortgage.

[chalky]

32. Like THAT'S going to stop them...

Bank of America forecloses on house that couple had paid cash for
SPRING HILL — Charlie and Maria Cardoso are among the millions of Americans who have experienced the misery and embarrassment that come with home foreclosure.

Just one problem: The Massachusetts couple paid for their future retirement home in Spring Hill with cash in 2005, five years before agents for Bank of America seized the house, removed belongings and changed the locks on the doors, according to a lawsuit the couple have filed in federal court.

[MineralMan]

11. Here's some advice if you're paying off a mortgage:

Always go to a title company, and pay them to handle the transaction and record the title correctly. Insist that the mortgage be completely gone from the title. They can do it. It will cost you some money, but it will be worth it in the end. Buy your own owner's title insurance policy, too. Don't rely on lenders to deal with this properly. Treat your mortgage payoff like purchasing a home and get the title insurance for yourself.

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. let me get this clearly:

you are saying that when I pay off the mortgage, pay our title company to do it AND make sure I also buy title insurance at that time?
( we do not have title insurance at present).

[MineralMan]

14. Yes. You need an Owner's title insurance policy.

Your lender has a title insurance policy already. They insist on that when you get the mortgage.

Here's what your title company will do:

1. Check the current title and discover all liens against the property. Your mortgage is one of those liens.
2. Contact the lienholder and get a payoff amount, as of a certain date.
3. Arrange for the lender to issue documents showing that their lien is satisfied.
4. Arrange for the Owners Title Insurance Policy.
5. Set a closing date. They will double check the payoff amount and wire the exact amount to the lender on the closing date. They will receive a release of lien document, also called a reconveyance. The actual document may vary from state to state.
6. Prepare a new deed, free of liens, supported by the lenders document releasing the lien.
7. They will file the release of lien or reconveyance and your new deed with the county recorder in the county where your property is.
8. Give you a copy of your Owner's Title Insurance policy. You pay only once for that. There's no recurring premium.

Then, you're done. Your new deed will be recorded and the lien will no longer appear on your property.

This will cost you a total of a few hundred bucks that you pay to the title company. Out of that they'll pay for the title insurance. You'll also have to pay the payoff amount for your mortgage(s), which they will wire to the lender and receive notification of payment.

If you wish, you can include a real estate attorney in the process, who will help make sure everything is in order.

Any title company can do this for you. It's a must, really. Don't rely on the lender to record or file anything. They won't. The Title Company will see that it is done and that everything is done properly. It's worth the cost.

[Robb]

17. Good list. I'll add that title companies like repeat business

...and often offer a discount if you've worked with them previously.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. I am copying this, with thanks.

Because we know, now, that all mortgages since at least 2005 (which includes mine) are very suspect at the banks end.

[riderinthestorm]

19. I just showed this to my husband. Bookmarking for valuable info. Thanks Mineral Man! nt

[MineralMan]

22. No problem. I've bought and sold homes as an owner

without any real estate agent, so I'm familiar with working with title companies. Last year, I wrote the content for a title company's website, and learned even more by talking with the owner. This was one of the things I learned from her. Any title company will do this for you, and gladly. It's actually a pretty easy thing for them, since it's simply a payoff of a mortgage. That's part of just about every home sale, so they've got it down pat.

[Kellerfeller]

24. Great info.

Thanks!

[oldhippie]

25. Would you think I need an Owner's Title Insurance Policy?

My situation may be a little unusual, but I wonder if I need such a policy. I bought my house directly from the builder that built it. There was no mortgage. I have a copy of the purchase and construction contract, and a receipt and the cancelled check where I paid him in full at the closing. The builder had bought the land, and my deed shows the land and the house with no recorded encumbrances (sp?), ever. I was told by some oldtimers at the Title Company where we did our closing that the land my house sits on is only a few transactions away from the original Spanish land grant to Texas, and had been in the hands of the same family for over a hundred years. The settlement statement shows a fee of $1054 for Title Insurance and it was paid by the seller, so I guess it was to protect him and not a mortgage company? My deed to the propoerty was recorded as a Cash Warranty Deed with no liens.

So I am thinking, I don't have any kind of title insurance on the property. But being that there has never been a mortgage on the land or on the house, do I really need one? Is there any way that someone could try to take title to my property that I don't know about? I would think and hope not, but with all the horror stories I've been hearing about foreclosures on properties without a mortgage, I am beginning to worry.

Can anyone put my mind at ease?

[dixiegrrrrl]

28. A lot of the horror stories are when banks foreclose on property they do not even have a lien on

so to my mind, it does not matter if you won it free and clear, if they are determined to steal it from you, only the luck of a court will protect you.

[MineralMan]

30. You know, I'm not sure about your situation.

It might be worth spending a few bucks on a consultation with a real estate attorney. Your way past my knowledge.

[Fuzz]

16. Burn it all down.

[Kellerfeller]

23. Brilliant

Yeah, the starter on my car went bad so I just torched the whole car.

I'm that smart.

[Fuzz]

29. Good for you! Keep up the good work.

[mackattack]

20. Wow

Sadly, things like this are becoming less and less surprising.

[Amonester]

21. If THIS is not considered to be "Capitalistic Terrorism"

I wonder...

[MissB]

31. When we refi'd last year

We went from Chase to a local credit union. Months later - like 6 months - we received this strange one page letter from Chase letting us know they changed the account number on our paid off mortgage account.

You bet I'm keeping that piece of paper forever and ever.

[sarcasmo]

33. Kick!

[CoffeeCat]

34. Uhhh...we re-financed with Wells last years...

Should I be worried? Ok, yes, it looks like I should be.

So, what do I do about this? How can I be sure that the initial mortgage was payed off?

This is crazy.

Why do the banks repeatedly benefit and make billions off of "mistakes"? Every bank error is in THEIR favor.