SO HELP ME GOD = AZ Legislators Want to Require High School Graduates to Recite a Loyalty Oath

[Coyotl]

Certain AZ Legislators Want High Schoolers to Recite a Loyalty Oath Before Graduating
Posted by David Mendez on Wed, Jan 23, 2013
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2013/01/23/certain-az-legislators-want-high-schoolers-to-recite-a-loyalty-oath-before-graduating

... HB 2467, a proposed measure sponsored by seven legislators (six representatives and a senator) ....

... the bill's text:

BEGINNING IN THE 2013‑2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.

... you're swearing that you're taking an oath freely when you're being coerced into taking the damn thing, again, in order to graduate. I'm pretty sure that makes the rest of the oath invalid, doesn't it? .....

[hrmjustin]

1. What the hell is up with these people?

This should be stopped by the courts.

[maui902]

91. Unlikely to be passed

So hopefully won't need courts to intervene, costing AZ taxpayers even more in legal costs. Republican state lawmaker also introduced bill to reimburse costs of recall election to Russell Pearce, the person behind the controversial anti-Senate Bill 1070, even though all of the funds Pearce used in opposing (and losing) the recall were donated. In other words, at least one Republican state legislator wants Arizona taxpayers to reimburse funds to a recalled Republican legislator even though it wasn't his money he spent. But do not despair. Slowly but surely, Arizona is turning younger and more diverse, and the state will eventually go blue despite the best efforts of old Republican white men to prevent that inevitability.

[0rganism]

2. "I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY"

How is it possible to put a statement like this into a mandatory oath?

Apparently, "freely" means something very different to some people.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

4. Beat me to it. That exactly what I was thinking before I

even scrolled down to see your comment.

The right wing pigs are so fucking stupid it burns.

[Coyotl]

21. Sometimes stupid is a horrible Catch-22

You do all these stupid things because stupid does as stupid is so you don't know they are stupid

[ck4829]

5. You are free to use whatever pitch or tone you want I guess?

[progressoid]

18. No kidding.

[gollygee]

63. ROFL that was my first thought too

Are these kids graduating high school or entering the Marine Corps?

[lunasun]

85. Notice what part they left out of this military oath

>obey all orders from the president of the United States.
What a joke AZ has truly become and isnt their education rating low/? seems like the $$ and time spent to push this could be better spent
http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/01/arizona-schools-finish-near-bottom-in-national-ranking/

[fishwax]

88. indeed n/t

[2naSalit]

3. What a crock

and this is a portion of the oath of office that federal employees take upon placement on at their post. These kids aren't getting a job, this is a ruse to try and enforce their draconian laws after graduation and should be against any number of laws as it has no other intent than create a hostile environment within which entrapment can take place. Nice try shitbaggers, but no cigar.

[Sadiedog]

75. What Federal employees?

I ask because I technically am a federal employee but have never had to say such an oath. Do you mean Legislators? Just curious.

[2naSalit]

78. Actually lots of federal employees.

All the NPS employees I know along with all who work for USFS, USDA, I had to take it a bunch of times working as a low level peaen fo the USCB (census)... and a bunch of others including elected office holders and some others I can't think of at the moment.

I'm surprised you didn't, what kind of work do you do?

Here are the oaths I have personally dealt with (some are added on to in order to address specifics of certain positions):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=62702

[Sadiedog]

89. thanks for your reply.

I really did not know this, interesting. I work in education, Head Start.

[ck4829]

6. As a leader, you don't have faith in your people when you don't expect

that they already have faith in their hearts.

[nobodyspecial]

7. Loyalty oaths

Like Hitler youth?

[hifiguy]

42. Spike Jones nailed assholes like these pathetic klowns

seventy years ago:

[riqster]

82. I never saw this before!

I had only heard the record (my folks had it).


Holy cow, they're flipping the bird when they "salute"....

[sadbear]

8. Shhh!!!!

My fascist legislators in Texas LOVE shit like this.

[santamargarita]

9. Only the GOP mind could dream up Nazi like bullshit

like this.

[onenote]

10. The irony is that the clown proposing this is the one who has violated his oath

to support and defend the constitution, seeing how 70 years ago the Supreme Court held that it is unconstitutional to compel students to recite a loyalty oath (i.e., the pledge of allegiance).

[Buzz Clik]

11. A reasonable parent will ensure that the person who conceived this will be fired.

That's it. No room for wiggle.

Anything else is bullshit.

[immoderate]

77. Depends on where in Arizona...

and if there is anything you could call reasonable parents.

--imm

[longship]

12. Oh my!

That's all I can say.

[NightWatcher]

13. What purpose does this serve?

[Fumesucker]

48. Political advantage for the person who introduced the bill n/t

[barbtries]

14. it sounds just like a military oath?

what next.

[2naSalit]

80. It's actually stolen from

and a bit modified:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=62702

[Jennicut]

15. They want students to take the oath that Senators and the Vice President take?

Weird. They aren't being sworn into anything.

[enlightenment]

27. Teachers (K-12 and post-secondary)

are required to take this oath (in Nevada it's even worse because the wording is slightly different). Most of the people I work with who were forced to sign it wrote - as did I - "signed under duress".

[WinkyDink]

35. WTH?! Not in Pennsylvania, we're not! Have your teachers heard of the CONSTITUTION?!

[enlightenment]

45. Well, yes - we have.

I spend a lot of time teaching my students about it, as a matter of fact. Problem is, we're state employees and if we want to work, we have to comply (right to work state and all that rot).

It's mostly a wink and a nod - we don't stand there with our hands raised and state the oath, as this moron legislator is suggesting the kids should do. We just have to sign a piece of paper that goes into our personnel file. And no one said a word about the number of people who signed under protest. It's all political theatre - unless you refuse to sign.

This started about 2005 and reached critical mass in 2008. There was a huge fuss about it - an instructor at one of the community colleges refused to sign and was fired. He sued - and lost, on appeal. The PTB say it's not a big deal because few people complain about . . . and besides, who pays attention anyway. The answer is "nobody" until someone refuses to sign - on principle - and gets canned for it.

I couldn't afford to loss my job, such as it is - so I held my nose and signed under duress.

They were doing this in California, also - though they may have pulled back on it. In Nevada it is particularly egregious (and potentially unconstitutional on its face) because of this:

I, ................, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support, protect and defend the constitution and government of the United States, and the constitution and government of the State of Nevada . . .

The oath the President takes - and the oath that federal legislators take - says this (the relevant section):

. . . defend the Constitution of the United States . . .

The problem is that "and the government" - it is not right to demand that an individual protect the government, particularly when they are being asked to defend BOTH the federal and the state government. Governments change all the time - no one should be required to defend or protect them.

[WinkyDink]

69. I fully get the "can't afford to lose my job" part. Man, how did we get such WHACKED legislators?

legislators??

[enlightenment]

74. Got me -

But they are seriously delusional. Most of the time. Stuff like this is easy for them - they can look like they're doing something, while doing nothing, with the added bonus of faux patriotism . . . like a cherry on top.

It's like all the resolutions that get voted on at both state and federal levels. They don't change anything, but they're fantastic time wasters and another line on their legislative scorecard. It's total BS.

[Demo_Chris]

16. Funny stuff there.

Whatever. It wont harm the kids but it will damn sure harm the GOP. Keep it up guys, keep it up.

I suggest we all write them, and rather than expressing outrage demand that they include something about Jesus.

[Initech]

17. Is there any doubt as to how Arizona won Bill Maher's Stupidest State contest?

[Coyotl]

22. Now I get it. AZ is trying to win a contest.

This made no sense until I heard about this contest

[rurallib]

19. so what haooens if you're an atheis and

1) you refuse to do the god part? or

2) you do the god part and then follow with an "I don't believe in deities"

do they burn you or lock you in stocks or some other medieval punishment?

[Hekate]

24. The law has always allowed Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others whose religion forbids...

... them to make oaths to secular powers to "affirm" that they are telling the truth in any situation calling for an oath (i.e. court, military).

This obviously applies to atheists and agnostics as well, though it is easier to get past the censors if you can claim religious belief (rather like conscientious objectors in the Viet Nam era, but that is another story).

[white_wolf]

20. Loyalty oath. What do you think the Pledge of Allegiance is?

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Sounds like an oath of fealty to me and I despise the fact that we have children recite it daily in classrooms.

[Coyotl]

23. Good point. What about prayer? Loyalty to the metaphysical master of the universe.

Pray or burn in damnation for eternity, another example of a freely given oath

[Mr.Bill]

31. Especially children so young

Last edited Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

that they don't even understand the meaning of many of the words they are reciting.

[WinkyDink]

36. What the Pledge IS, is a NON-MANDATED (yes, check the Constitution) paragraph

many U.S. schools ASK that their students recite.

ANY school that is getting away with DEMANDING this is a school with VERY weak and, frankly, undemocratic teachers and parents.

[white_wolf]

37. It's non-mandated but very strongly encouraged.

It should be recited at all in any form.

[WinkyDink]

71. Oh, trust me; I know. I held my nose in my homerooms many a year. All I asked of

my students, though, was that they stand. If they wanted to remain silent, I let them know it was their LEGAL RIGHT.

But then, I'm a Lefty in more ways than one.

[Rex]

25. WHY is the AZ government prepairing their students to become state soldiers?

Sec. 3331. Oath of office
An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an
office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services,
shall take the following oath: ``I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith
and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without
any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and
faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to
enter. So help me God.'' This section does not affect other oaths
required by law.

Source: United States Code - 5USC3331

IS THERE something we need to know about AZ!?!?

[kimbutgar]

29. Because the economy is so shitty there with right to work that people can't afford to live a middle

class life anymore. Old people are taking the minimum wage jobs to supplement their income forcing out the younger workers. One of my nephews works 2 minimum wage jobs and can barely make ends meet and has no social life because all he does is works and sleeps. The other had to join the Army because there is nothing but dead end jobs. He couldn't afford college so he had to join the Army. They are just preparing the youth their for their inevitable path of joining the military. Arizona the state of no opportunity nor upward mobility. My husband's family all moved there from California because housing was cheaper but now they are getting to the point they can't afford to live there anymore because of the low wages due to right the work laws. I wonder what's going to happen to all those retirement communities when the seniors die and there is no seniors to move in because they have no retirement, nor can the families sell the homes of the deceased family members.

[Mosby]

34. why do people keep moving to AZ then?

AZs unemployment rate is right in the middle of the pack at 7.9% for 2012.

AZs population growth comes in at number 8.

Phx has the 4th best housing market in the country, Tucson is listed at #14.

[kimbutgar]

43. For the warm weather, seniors love it and for the cheap housing

But once you get there you realize jobs don't pay much. It happened to a friend of mine. He commutes back to California to work, because he couldn't find a job in his field there. The most he could make is $8 an hour in the sf bay area he makes $60 an hour for his services. He is waiting on the real estate market to turn around so he can sell his house and get him and his wife out of the state. Also it is very racist, he is Filipino and said he NEVER faced racism like he does in Arizona. I have to go there next week to visit my in-laws and I am dreading going to the state. I will be staying indoors as much as possible as I don't want to get in trouble there being I'm not a lily white person. I wonder if I should bring my passport? And lastly Arizona has the craziest politicians ugh!!!!!

[Mosby]

51. the pay varies depending on where you live

Highest pay is in the Phx metro area, the pay in rural AZ is a lot lower. Pay in Tucson is about 75% of the pay in Phx.

The cops here in the (phx) Valley generally suck, they arrest everyone they can in order to maintain law enforcement and the "justice" system as growth industries. I don't doubt that there is a fair amount of discrimination but my experience is that the cops here just want arrests, they don't care as much about skin color.

Really if you're going to compare phx or tucson or anywhere else in the US to the sf bay area you're going to be disappointed. How does your filipino relative think he would fair in the rural south for example?

[Coyotl]

59. AZ is anything but lily white albeit there is now a white majority.

Much of the state is Navajo Nation or other tribal lands, plus there was a large number of residents in that part of Mexico before the conquest. Those people are still there and still speak Spanish too. Almost everywhere you go, you can speak Spanish instead of English.

[dbackjon]

73. You have nothing to fear

My partner and his family are all Hispanic. They go about their daily business like everyone else.

Same with the black, hispanic and Asians I have on my softball team


I am not sure where your friend is experiencing racism. I have a number of Filipino and other Asian/Pacific Islander friends - born and raised here and moved here from Cali. No issues ever. The only complaints the ones from Cali have is the lack of dining options.

[kimbutgar]

83. He's has been seated in several chains in Glendale and the waitress took a long time to take their

Order, he requested a booth and they told them they were taken but there were several empty ones, him and his wife were seated elsewhere right after that a white couple game in and given the booth, it is a non reservation restaurant. He has had incidents in the grocery stores where people have been rude. And let me tell you this guy is a sweet nice and Christian man so I know it's not anything he said or has done. As a non lily white woman I can definitely say I got the squint from white people. That said, of course, I'm not going to broad brush Arizona as bad (only the politicians) there are a lot of good people including the ones who commented on my comment. I will come to Arizona next week and be happy to see my in laws and have a nice visit.

[MADem]

87. I feel ya--I went down there for a friend's wedding and I got that old squint eye too.

The friends, and their people, were great, so I know what you mean about good people living there, but I do think there are plenty of people in authority and out and about who can be unkind.

If you don't fit a type that meets their approval, you could have trouble, that's the feeling I take away.

That's just my sense. I breathed easier when I got back on the plane.

[dbackjon]

90. There is a general lack of good service in Arizona

Along with some pockets of racists - but most of us are good people. Not lily white at all.

If he has issues like that, make a stink. Generally, this is one or two ignorant servers, and management would be ashamed of them.

[patrice]

26. Good comment! "freely"??? I'm not sure most people would recognize their own slavery if it bit their

butt.

We need a long HONEST, on-going, big discussion of what the word "Freedom" means, for real, and as many people as possible should participate in that.

[Egalitarian Thug]

55. "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

That was Harriet Tubman.

This is Ron White, "You can't fix stupid".

[Ash_F]

28. Teenagers love being coerced and dominated!

Thanks AZ pubs for helping the future of that state to be a blue one.

[Aristus]

30. If the bill passes the legislature and is signed by Governor Hagfinger,

it will be killed by the Arizona Supreme Court, the Circuit Court of Appeals, or the US Supreme Court. And even if it doesn't, no student of conscience will willingly swear the oath.

More uber-patriotic grandstanding by the Arizona legislators...

[JDPriestly]

32. What about children who are here on resident visas without citizenship?

[KamaAina]

40. Or (shhh!) here without either?

SB 1070 didn't drive them all away, y'know.

[JDPriestly]

44. No. Here students with resident visas but who are not citizens.

Why should they be required to take a loyalty oath?

[gtar100]

33. Gee, loyalty oaths have worked so well throughout history.

Sounds like they are getting desperate. Can't win hearts and minds with their oh-so-awesome ideology so they have to force it upon them. They never get that loyalty oaths would be completely unnecessary if they actually worked to make this country a great place to live instead of just talking about it.

I am so sick of having the idiots controlling the conversations and screwing up our government. There are so many more effective things they could be doing with their time.

[hifiguy]

38. Metallized hydrogen is jealous of the density

of the reichwing "mind."

[Fumesucker]

50. And intergalactic space the vacuity of their "intellect"..

[JoePhilly]

39. The GOP is Irony deficient.

[Blue Idaho]

41. Is it any surprise

Businesses refuse to move there, the economy is failing, the educational system is gutted, and people are fleeing the state in record numbers? Jan Brewer and her merry band of small minded busybodies have destroyed AZ.

Pathetic.

[tanyev]

46. Ooh, magic words that will certainly guide all decisions they make for years to come.

That'll work.

[Swede Atlanta]

47. Unconstitutional on its face.....

There is no "nexus" between this "oath" and the awarding of a high school diploma.

They must have scratched their nuts raw and their pussies bloody in order to have time to think up this kind of crap. There is absolutely no logical connection between a public education and an oath. Sorry Charlie....

[legaleagle_45]

49. Yep

Why do they even waste our time?

[Coyotl]

60. Because they are racists who hate Mexicans, Hispanics, and Native Americans

This is directed at minority populations and is an affront to them.

[arely staircase]

52. so the pledge of allegiance every moring, 5 days a week, 9 months a year isn't enough?

i thought that was something of great significance to these nativists.

classic goal post moving

[Sekhmets Daughter]

53. Heeheehehehee

Gee didn't we just here this when Justice Sotomayor swore in VP Biden...

[Politicalboi]

54. SO HELP ME GOD

Wouldn't surprise me if this is what it's all about. Bringing "god" back in the schools. It's the start of a slippery slope IMO.

[HockeyMom]

56. Loyalty Oathes

When I moved to Florida and went to work in a public school, they asked me to sign a loyalty oath to the Constitution of the USA (ok) and the Constiution of Florida. I refused to do the latter. I was told that was fine and that many employees had done the same.

In my book the US Constitution trump's any state's.

[winter is coming]

57. "foreign and domestic"

Apparently, the politicians don't realize that they qualify as "domestic".

[DirkGently]

58. Nothing fascist about required "loyalty oaths" for schoolchildren, nosiree.

Gack.

[Viking12]

61. I had to take an oath in AZ to be paid as a Grad Assistant

It was to the State Constitution if I recall correctly

edit: I found the oath

State of Arizona, County of __________________ I, __________________ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution and laws of the State of Arizona, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and defend them against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge the duties of the office of__________________________________(name of office) according to the best of my ability, so help me God (or so I do affirm).

[FiveGoodMen]

62. Adolf would be proud

...and Fuck Godwin.

[Arcanetrance]

64. Very Nazi like on their part

In truth we have allowed these elements to continue for to long.

[Angry Dragon]

65. more idiots stick their heads into the sand of Arizona

[Downtown Hound]

66. I see Republicans are once again tackling the real important issues facing the country.

[Fresh_Start]

67. Require every individual voting for this bill or administering the act

to take a test and pass the test on the Constitution.
If you can't pass the test (and since these are legislators and public officials a passing grade should be 90%), you can make the bill or administer the oath.

[avebury]

68. If you want to be a state employee in Oklahoma you

have to sign a loyalty oath. I kid you not. It is part of the new employee paperwork that I prepare for new hires.

[WinkyDink]

70. Somebody need to sue and take this to a higher/highest court.

[dbackjon]

72. My legislature is nuts

[kestrel91316]

76. Forcing them to say the Pledge of Allegiance every day for 12 years isn't enough now?

Jesus wept.

This, of course, will immediately and rightly be found unconstitutional, if for no other reason that it infringes on the rights of students who are not citizens. Like foreign exchange students sponsored by AFS and other organizations. Or the children of people with H1B visas, or......well, you get my point.

http://www.afs.org/

[Bennyboy]

79. BILL NOT FOUND.......

http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=hb+2467&Session_Id=110&image.x=0&image.y=0

[benld74]

81. Here is one they should recite immediately after the 1st

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL GET THE F*CK OUTTA THIS STATE AS FAST AS I AM ABLE NEVER TO SET FOOT INSIDE THE ASYLUM FOR THE REST OF MY BORN DAYS!!!!

[KoKo]

84. We are getting close to this here in NC...I feel for you with what we are up against.

[RKP5637]

86. This is fucken ridiculous, like most things from AZ anymore. n/t

[iemitsu]

92. Don't those same kids already recite the Pledge of Alligience every morning

at school? And why, if its important, do only public school kids have to take the oath? Is it assumed that wealthier kids are already loyal?
But then again, isn't this the same oath that elected officials pledge and then immediately break? I guess they just want others to be inn the same boat they are in.