The story of a gun: Serial number MPX753

[superpatriotman]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl-path-of-a-gun-20130113,0,5958991,full.story

This is the story of a gun.

It's not an unusual story. This gun is no different from thousands of handguns just like it. This gun, a 40-caliber Glock sporting the serial number MPX753, was made for a deputy.

But it ultimately ended up in the wrong hands. This gun was used to shoot and wound two people on the streets of Boynton Beach. Its final stop was with a 22-year-old woman, who used this gun to shoot herself in the head.

Over four years, this gun traveled more than 5,000 miles, crossed an ocean and touched at least a half-dozen lives in Palm Beach County in ways no one ever thought it would.

Worth a read at link

[MightyMopar]

1. Devil"s Right Hand

[Bay Boy]

2. The story of a gun: serial number abc-1234

Purchased in the 1980's used for target shooting and never misused. I think this would come close to describing 99.9% of firearms purchased.

[Squinch]

5. The deputy who used the gun in the story never misused his gun either.

And then it got stolen.

[farminator3000]

9. exactly. probably no law against leaving in your car

stolen just like the 499,999 in 2011.

[Squinch]

10. Oy. I had not heard that number. That's chilling.

[farminator3000]

13. its been going down if that helps...

guns can be stolen from manufacturers, importers, distributors, licensed dealers, and private citizens. Cook et al. (1995) estimated that some 500,000 guns are stolen each year. This estimate, derived from National Crime Victimization Survey data for the years 1987 to 1992, suggests that 340,700 thefts occurred annually in which one or more guns were stolen;
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=74

Victimizations involving the theft of firearms declined from
283,600 in 1994 to 145,300 in 2010 (figure 1). Overall, about
1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were
stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the
six-year period from 2005 through 2010.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fshbopc0510.txt

who really knows, cause those are just the reported ones.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/02/08/up-to-2-million-in-guns-stolen-from-gilroy-home/

yikes! i'd bet criminals buy even more thru friends, because its so easy.

[sarisataka]

3. Only police and military need guns

the corrupt dealer and irresponsible owner should be jailed for all crimes this gun was used for

That's when it ended its 5,000-mile journey from a factory in Austria to the Glock distributor in Smyrna, Ga. There, it was packaged and sent to the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office — part of a fresh batch of 1,500 Glocks ordered by the sheriff to rearm his deputies.

Serial number MPX753 eventually landed in the car of Deputy William Hodge, of the traffic division.

But on the morning of Oct. 22, 2009, Deputy Hodge called the cops.

In the middle of night, someone had smashed the windows of his Dodge in the Central Park neighborhood of Boca Raton. The burglar took everything inside: a pair of handcuffs, a badge, $250 cash, some credit cards, a bullet-filled fanny pack — and the Glock.

oh...

[melm00se]

4. Interesting that this gun

first came into the hands of someone, ostensibly, "trained".

What kind of jackass (or an idiot) would leave a firearm in an unattended vehicle (plus $200 in cash, credit cards and his badge?).

[stultusporcos]

6. Obviously a member of our crack law enforcement community would

[Crepuscular]

7. What's the point?

So what is the point of the article, to suggest that law enforcement officers should not be armed? Or that criminals ignore existing gun laws, so therefore we need to pass more laws that will be ignored? Help me out here......

[farminator3000]

12. see #11

the point is there are way too many guns, and they do more harm than good.

[Blue_Tires]

43. It's just a good, interesting illustration of the "chain of ownership"

especially in the wider scope of considering how many millions of guns we have in the nation....

[Bonobo]

66. Yeah, what's the whole "point thing" about learning new information?? nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the objective/reason for the article. ?? nt

[farminator3000]

11. to show how 75% of 'shootings' actually happen in reality?

and also that gun laws are BOTH too few AND not obeyed?

did people give up about passing drunk driving laws?

there are two options if a set of laws aren't working- give up or make more and better ones.

maybe a deputy should leave his gun @ the station, if it is doing nothing in his car?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. Too few and not obeyed...

You must be the kind of guy that complains about how terrible a meal is and then asks for seconds, huh?

You forgot the third option if laws aren't working... actually try enforcing them. There's just about a law covering everything illegal/immoral you can do with a gun. Why won't actually standing behind them work? DO you really more laws that fail to be acted upon will be the answer?

[farminator3000]

15. so you blame the cops for criminal gun activity and not the NRA. interesting

see, the cops can only enforce the laws, they don't make them.

sure, there are laws about what you can DO with a gun, but they don't stop any yahoo who wants one from getting one as easy as aspirin.

because the regulations on buying guns are scarce indeed. which is why all these people are getting busted.
yes, i think if you can't go to the store and get a 30 or 130 round mag it would be a great thing for everyone.
i'd limit mags to 8, but i'm not in charge. count your blessings...

google pg.1-
News for illegal firearm arrests

2 Arrested, 1 Wanted for Illegal Firearms Sales
WTVY, Dothan ?- 2 days ago
On January 24, 2013 the Dothan Police Department Criminal Investigation Division conducted a search warrant at a residence located in the ...

Illegal Firearms Sales Leads to Arrest of Four
Crime Voice? - 2 days ago
8 arrested in raids on Cebu illegal gun factories
Inquirer.net (blog)? - 2 days ago

Man arrested for possessing illegal firearms at gun show
www.myfoxaustin.com/.../man-arrested-for-possessing-illegal-...
4 days ago – Police seized two illegal firearms at last month's Saxet Gun Show at the Travis County Expo Center. They say a 19-year-old convicted felon was ...

8 arrested in raids on Cebu illegal gun factories | Inquirer News
newsinfo.inquirer.net › Latest News Stories › Regions
3 days ago – The police arrested eight persons and seized several firearms, gun parts and equipment valued at around P1 million in separate raids ...

Two men arrested after raid for illegal firearms - Boston News, New ...
www1.whdh.com/.../two-men-arrested-after-raid-for-illegal-fir...
2 days ago – SPRINGFIELD, Mass. -- A raid for illegal firearms left two men behind bars in Springfield.

Boston street worker arrested, charged with illegal gun ... - Boston.com
www.boston.com/.../01/...illegal-gun...arrest.../story.html
Jan 14, 2013 – A Boston street worker hired by the Boston Foundation is under arrest after Boston police investigating an unrelated disturbance call allegedly ...

Illegal Firearms Sales Leads to Arrest of Four | CRIMEVOICE
crimevoice.com/illegal-firearms-sales-leads-to-arrest-of-four-2...
Illegal Firearms Sales Leads to Arrest of Four. By Robert L. McCullough on Friday, January 25th, 2013 at 1:39 pm. Font Size : Ventura County - An investigation ...

3 arrested after illegal firearm purchase at OKC gun show - KOCO.com
www.koco.com › News › Local News › OKC
Jan 2, 2013 – Oklahoma City police say they arrested three men after they illegally bought a firearm at a gun show.
Two arrested for selling illegal magazines at Timonium gun show ...

www.baltimoresun.com/.../ph-tt-gun-show-arrest-0123-20130...
Jan 16, 2013 – Baltimore County Police arrested two men last week for selling high-capacity bullet magazines during a trade show at the Maryland State ...

[farminator3000]

16. this one in particular you might want to check out

15 people indicted for selling illegal guns to undercover cops in The Bronx

By DOUGLAS MONTERO and REBECCA HARSHBARGER
Last Updated: 5:20 PM, January 24, 2013
Posted: 4:18 PM, January 24, 2013

Fifteen people were indicted in the Bronx today for selling more than 150 illegal guns to undercover detectives, law-enforcement sources said.

The weapons included assault weapons, as well as high-capacity ammunition, sources said.

Police took the guns off the streets in two separate investigations. Many of the weapons came from outside New York, sourced from Ohio and Maryland, sources added.

[ManiacJoe]

17. How many were traced back to the original seller?

My money says not many.

[farminator3000]

19. how would i know that? i'm not an NYPD detective. plus it was 3 days ago, so even though i'm

not involved i'll guess they're still working on it?

it said the guns came from ohio and MD, ohio has crappy gun laws and MD has no BG check.

but the dealers only keep records for 24 hours(thanks, nra), which i imagine is a royal pain in the ass for the cops.

i'm sure that's just one reason cops don't like the NRA either.

[ManiacJoe]

21. FFLs are required to keep the paperwork forever.

When they leave the business, the paperwork is turned over to the feds.

[farminator3000]

23. great, but they only sell 60% of guns, the others are all no BG check

The gun lobby's Tiahrt Amendment restricts law enforcement officials from fully accessing and using Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) gun trace data. Clerks at the ATF literally write records by hand, circa 1950, because the gun lobby says an automated database would "pose a threat to the Second Amendment." Let's get those bad guys.
http://www.alternet.org/speakeasy/martharosenberg/who-says-nra-hates-regulation-look-laws-it-likes

WASHINGTON, DC�A federal judge today dismissed a case filed by the NAACP against the firearms industry based on the fact that the organization had not proven a "special injury" under New York law, but, in a 176-page decision, Judge Jack B. Weinstein found that the gun industry's conduct contributed to the use of its products to commit crimes and acts of violence. Finding that the NAACP had proven the existence of a public nuisance by clear and convincing evidence, the court found that the organization "has demonstrated the great harm done to the New York public by the use and threat of use of illegally available handguns in urban communities," and that "[m]embers of the industry continue to fail to take many obvious and easily implemented steps" to abate the nuisance.
http://www.vpc.org/press/0307naacp.htm

[beevul]

22. Uh...no. Your assertion about dealers only keeping records 24 hours is 100% false.

""but the dealers only keep records for 24 hours(thanks, nra), which i imagine is a royal pain in the ass for the cops."

Dealers keep records of their transactions for YEARS, in their "bound book". FFL holders - thats federal firearms license holders - are required to by law - federal law.

You should research "what you think is true" a little better than you have., if you're going to state it as if its fact.


"FFL holders are required to keep a registry of firearms sales in an ATF-approved Bound Book, or a computerized equivalent using ATF-approved software. Licensed dealers must also maintain file copies of Form 4473 or eForm 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record" documents, for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. When retiring or otherwise relinquishing a license, these records are sent to the BATFE's Out-of-Business Records Center. Licensed collectors are not required to send their records to the BATFE when relinquishing their license. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five business day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

[farminator3000]

24. see #23

National Background Check

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 created a national background check system to prevent firearms sales to prohibited persons. In order to comply with the prohibition on a Federal registry of non-NFA items, background check records are legally required to be destroyed after 24 hours; however, ATF has consistently kept computer records for longer, citing "demographic and census reasons."[citation needed]

wiki

plus, you've seen the chart- and should know how easy it is to get a gun.

if the guns were brought from OH and MD, obviously they were taking advantage of some kinda LOOPHOLE. get it?

The gun lobby's Tiahrt Amendment restricts law enforcement officials from fully accessing and using Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) gun trace data. Clerks at the ATF literally write records by hand, circa 1950, because the gun lobby says an automated database would "pose a threat to the Second Amendment." Let's get those bad guys.
http://www.alternet.org/speakeasy/martharosenberg/who-says-nra-hates-regulation-look-laws-it-likes

[X_Digger]

25. Umm.. dealer's records != background check records.

Perhaps you honestly misspoke, but a record of every sale is kept by licensed dealers, basically forever. However, the results of the background check aren't kept (if the result is a 'pass') for more than 24 hours.

[farminator3000]

26. and the batf doing stuff by hand not = to sanity

the question was 'how many were traced back to whatever'

my answer is- since they went to OH and MD, the cops are probably screwed on finding out where many of them came from, seeing as it is so easy to get guns almost everywhere (except the bronx).

do you really think they went to a dealer and showed ID to buy a bunch of guns to sell to criminals? please!

that shitty situation is thanks to the NRA.

[beevul]

27. None of which mitigates the simple fact that you were wrong when you said...

None of which mitigates the simple fact that you were wrong when you said:

"...dealers only keep records for 24 hours(thanks, nra)..."

100 percent wrong.

"and the batf doing stuff by hand not = to sanity"

ATF goes to stores and does stuff "by hand" because the law says they're required to.

And the little thing you left out about the tiahrt amendment - it prevents what you said EXCEPT when theres a crime being investigated. What it does do is prevent "fishing expeditions".


As far as you're concerned, the situation is shitty until and unless the laws are written to your liking, and any individual or organization that disagrees or stands in the way is evil. Just admit it and be done with it.

[farminator3000]

29. thank you for not posting a wall of hoo-hah, makes it quicker to refute!

As far as you're concerned, the situation is shitty until and unless the laws are written to your liking, and any individual or organization that disagrees or stands in the way is evil. Just admit it and be done with it.


THE SITUATION IS SHITTY AND WAS MADE THAT WAY BY THE NRA AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO SPEW THEIR BS MINDLESSLY.

now-

The Tiahrt provisions require the Federal Bureau of Investigation to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours, making it nearly impossible to use those records to help solve crimes or to identify gun buyers with criminal histories who were mistakenly approved. Learn More
http://protectpolice.org/facts

***

Tiahrt sucks up to the KOCHS, for starters (and defense industry)

Top 20 Contributors to Campaign Cmte 2010
Rank Contributor Hires lobbyists? Lobbying firm?* Lobbyist(s) give
to member? Total Indivs PACs
1 Boeing Co $33,600 $28,600 $5,000
2 Koch Industries $31,363 $26,363 $5,000

Top 20 Contributors to Campaign Cmte 2008
Rank Contributor Hires lobbyists? Lobbying firm?* Lobbyist(s) give
to member? Total Indivs PACs
1 Koch Industries $63,400 $53,400 $10,000
2 Hawker Beechcraf Inc $21,750 $11,750 $10,000
3 Boeing Co $12,300 $2,300 $10,000

***

no comment required-
tiahrt-
2002 National Rifle Association - Lifetime Score 92%
2001-2002 Gun Owners of America - Positions on Gun Rights 0%

***

really, really unimpressive- (against gay people, food safety, DREAM act, teachers. PRO infant mortality...)
http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/21953/todd-tiahrt#.UQaDBmd8NoE

***

now here's the deal with that 'law' you think is so cool- do you not see the total BS you are promoting by supporting this a-hole and his BS law?
on a democratic board?
you should try a little harder when looking at info on the internet.
even JOHN FUCKING ASHCROFT was against it!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/23/AR2010102303763.html

The law effectively shields retailers from lawsuits, academic study and public scrutiny. It also keeps the spotlight off the relationship between rogue gun dealers and the black market in firearms...skip

But seven years ago, under pressure from the gun lobby, Congress blacked out the information by passing the so-called Tiahrt amendment, named for Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.). The law removed from the public record a government database that traces guns recovered in crimes back to the dealers.

"It was extraordinary, and the most offensive thing you can think of," said Chuck Wexler, director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a nonprofit group for police chiefs. "The tracing data, which is now secret, helped us see the big picture of where guns are coming from." ...skip

But Bradley A. Buckles, ATF director at the time, said his agency did not ask for the amendment. "It just showed up," he said. "I always assumed the NRA did it." ...skip

The proposal surprised some members of the House Appropriations Committee when it came up for a vote in July 2003. As a result, it barely passed, 31-30, though the committee was full of NRA supporters such as Rep. Frank R. Wolf (R-Va.), who voted no because he was troubled at being "caught flat-footed and blindsided."

After the vote, Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.) objected. "It was not the subject of hearings. It has no support from law enforcement. It has no support from Attorney General [John] Ashcroft. It really serves to protect only the most corrupt gun dealers at the expense of all other legitimate gun dealers." ...skip

For three decades, tracing was used mostly to help police catch criminals linked to recovered guns. But in 1995, Professor Glenn L. Pierce of Northeastern University analyzed ATF tracing data and discovered that a tiny fraction of gun dealers - 1 percent - were the original sellers of a majority of the guns seized at crime scenes - 57 percent. ...skip

The inspections detected serious problems. Nearly half of the dealers could not account for all of their guns, for a total of 13,271 missing firearms. More than half were out of compliance with record-keeping. And they had made nearly 700 sales to potential traffickers or prohibited people. More than 450 dealers were sanctioned, and 20 were referred for license revocation.

The ATF proposed tougher rules, such as requiring dealers to conduct regular inventories to detect lost or stolen guns. The gun industry opposed the rule, calling it a step toward a national registry of gun ownership. ...skip

(still spewing the SAME bone-headed BS, huh?)

Next, the gun lobby moved to take the trace data out of public circulation altogether. In July 2003, Tiahrt introduced his amendment, saying, "I wanted to make sure I was fulfilling the needs of my friends who are firearms dealers."

Tiahrt - who lost in this year's Republican Senate primary - said he also was lobbied by the Fraternal Order of Police. "They believed it would allow criminals to track down who undercover officers were," Tiahrt said. But FOP Executive Director James Pasco Jr. said the union played no role in drafting the amendment. "We were not there before the fact," he said. "We were supportive after the fact."

[beevul]

44. You figured out how to use paragraphs. Good job!

I note you that you take the time, to post what all sorts of sources with agendas say about the piece of legislation in question. Have you bothered to actually read it yourself?

When it comes to legislation, I care much less about who authored it, or who supported it, than I do about what the legislation actually does. If I like what the legislation itself says it does, then I tend to agree with it. If I don't like what the legislation itself says it will do, then I tend to disagree with it.

BTW, you should edit your post so you don't violate copyright. Four paragraphs is generally accepted as the limit on DU.

[farminator3000]

31. serious question here-

Sheriff Ron Long says the investigation was conducted over several weeks, after a number of home break-ins were reported across the county, specifically with guns being stolen.

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=759312

if somebody stole your guns like that ^^^ and got caught, how the hell would you get them back if they weren't registered?

wouldn't you WANT them back?

'excuse me mr. cop, can you fingerprint that gun to prove its mine because i was too paranoid to register it like my car?'

hello?

[farminator3000]

30. check post #29

not misspeaking at all.

being completely honest.

Tiahrt is a SCUMBAG.

[X_Digger]

32. Actually, you did misspeak..

Every background check is accompanied by a Form 4473. The record of the check is destroyed (if a 'pass'), but the 4473 is retained basically forever. Apple != Orange.

[farminator3000]

33. no, i was typing, and you are obsessing about a form that is meaningless

fine, they keep form 4473 for 20 years.

http://www.middletownjournal.com/videos/ap/west-virginia/how-the-us-traces-guns-in-crimes/vpLcs/

there'a a vid of the batf going throught cardboard boxes.

57% of guns used in crimes come from 1% of dealers.

tiahrt amendment=giant steaming crock of NRA BS, i stand by my statement.

you are completely ignoring the FACT that the NRA leaders are a bunch of greedy a-holes, and yapping about the ONE law there is as if it works perfectly.

no dice.

[X_Digger]

35. Meaningless? Then why keep them? They (form 4473s) are the main means of tracing guns used in crime.

They are the backbone of straw purchase prosecutions.

No, you're just irritated that no national registry of firearms owners or purchasers exists.

[farminator3000]

36. why keep them in a cardboard box if they are so important?

Q: Does an unlicensed person need an ATF Form 4473 to transfer a firearm?

No. ATF Form 4473 is required only for transfers by a licensee.

[27 CFR 478.124]

i find that irritating.

and you.

the form doesn't even check your SS#. ever heard of a fake ID? you can get a 'real' one for $200.

But it’s hardly that simple in today’s maze of regulations that, among other things, put handgun owners under greater scrutiny than people wanting to buy an assault rifle. Background checks, in many cases, can be ineffective because many states do not report pertinent information about criminal histories or mental illness.

Only federally licensed firearms dealers must run background checks on gun buyers, but studies estimate that nearly 40 percent of all gun sales are made by private sellers who are exempt from the requirement.

Obama has called for limited exceptions on universal background checks cases like certain transfers between family members and temporary transfers for hunting.

The president also wants to close background check loopholes to keep guns out of dangerous hands. That includes addressing legal barriers that prevent states from reporting information about those prohibited from having guns because of medical privacy concerns.

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20130127/NEWS/301270058/Gun-debate-zeroes-in-on-permitting-background-checks?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

***

Website streamlines sales of assault rifles, handguns without background checks
Stephen N. Dethrage

Using armslist.com, anyone in Alabama with Internet access can shop for weapons ranging from antique revolvers to modern assault rifles in their area and purchase them without submitting to a background check. It’s a practice that, because of what is know as the “gun-show loophole,” is entirely legal in the state.
http://dateline.ua.edu/2013/01/website-streamlines-sales-of-assault-rifles-handguns-without-background-checks/

***

WASHINGTON -- Ask a Senate Republican if he or she supports an assault weapons ban and you'll likely get a "no." But ask about tighter background checks -- one of a few items in President Barack Obama's gun violence package with a shot at passing Congress -- and you'll likely get a vague response about needing more information, if you get a response at all.

"Uh, I don't know what you mean," said Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), who then ended the conversation by turning around and walking into a room where senators were having lunch, closing the door behind him.

"I need to have more details. I, you know, I just need -- you need to ask me after I've talked to our judiciary staff in our office," said Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), also heading to the Senate lunch. "I hate to respond just in the hallway, so I won't."

"I've got -- my wife's here. I'm sorry. I've gotta -- thanks," said Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/background-checks-senate-republicans_n_2529562.html

and that's the senate. the house are 10x the a-holes.

[X_Digger]

37. Nice dodge. Still doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022268015#post19

the dealers only keep records for 24 hours

Do try and keep on topic.

[farminator3000]

38. can you please discuss something of revelance?

it said the guns came from ohio and MD, ohio has crappy gun laws and MD has no BG check.

but the dealers only keep records for 24 hours(thanks, nra),

OBVIOUSLY i mean BG checks. nice selective paste...

back to #29, ok?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2272141

THE SITUATION IS SHITTY AND WAS MADE THAT WAY BY THE NRA AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO SPEW THEIR BS MINDLESSLY.

now-

The Tiahrt provisions require the Federal Bureau of Investigation to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours, making it nearly impossible to use those records to help solve crimes or to identify gun buyers with criminal histories who were mistakenly approved. Learn More
http://protectpolice.org/facts

get it now?

[X_Digger]

39. Dealers *never* had the background check records.

Background check records are mirrored by the 4473- any information used in the background check is contained in the 4473.

Since the 4473 is retained virtually forever, your assertion is demonstrably false.

It just takes a bit longer.

[farminator3000]

40. well, that certainly is a problem, now ISN'T IT?

back to reality again-

cops in the bronx bust some guys with a bunch of guns. what do the have? serial numbers.

what does that tell them? nothing.

the BG check has been 'destroyed', the 4473 is....where? in a cardboard box at the dealer, who mails it in when he feels like it. or not.

so the feds have zilch, the NY cops have zilch.

PLUS there's a better than 40% chance (maybe 90%? 99%?) that the guns were bought in a parking lot at a gun show, from some guy who stocked up at the dealer, and can just say the guns were stolen, or whatever.

if the 4473 ever shows up.

the NY cops are just supposed to start calling up dealers? or the gun MAKER, to find the dealer?

duh? BAD bad laws...

[X_Digger]

41. "Mails it in"?!? You really don't know the process, do you?

NYPD cop calls the national tracing center in Martinsburg. An agent in Martinsburg checks their files, and/or walks the distribution chain down from the manufacturer's serial number list to the 4473 in a dealer's records. That lists the *same exact information* that was given to the NICS to run the background check.

Perhaps you should revisit your own link above.

[farminator3000]

45. it sure doesn't make any sense, whatever you are typing, there.

what, exactly, does the 'national agent' check if the BG has been DESTROYED??

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

looks ^^^ there like the 4473 is at the dealers shop. not in a computer, so no way for the national agent to know.

and WHY, AGAIN does it matter if there was no BG at all to begin with?

MD has licensed dealers and a wait period, NO BG.
OH has NOTHING.

they both have a lot of right-wing militias probably dumping their OLD assault weapons (older than 20 years, untraceable)
to get shiny new ones

[X_Digger]

47. The BATFE checks the 4473-- the exact same information that he read to the NICS agent for BG check.

BATFE routinely receives boxes of 4473's from dealers. They also pick up the phone and ask dealers for information about a gun with serial number GUN1234. The dealer faxes the 4473 to the agent on request.

MD has licensed dealers and a wait period, NO BG.
OH has NOTHING.

ALL sales by a federally licensed dealer to a non-FFL is accompanied by a background check. In every single state. That's federal law. Remember the 'Brady' bill?

[farminator3000]

49. reality, post #46

and just give up.

i personally hope the weapons hoarding a-hole that supplied the guns gets nailed, but i doubt it, what with the nra screwing up everything so royally.

[X_Digger]

52. These guns were traced to point of sale, no? Then your contention in post #19 is incorrect.

Many of the weapons came from outside New York, sourced from Ohio and Maryland, sources added.

... flies in the face of..

but the dealers only keep records for 24 hours

How would the police know that the weapons were from outside New York if dealers only keep records for 24 hours?!?!

Unless you're claiming that they all made their way to NY in < 24 hours?!?

[farminator3000]

53. maybe they bought gas while on their jolly gun buying jaunt. or used their phones.

how the hell do either of us know? about an ongoing criminal investigation?

who gives a fuck who keeps the BG check if it is gone in 24 hours?

see, the phones have gps, which info the cops can pay cell carriers for without a warrant...
so...
maybe the other consumer product, guns, should, too.

[X_Digger]

55. The fact that the cops could even say where they came from proves your statement wrong.

A background check is not a record of who owns what weapon.. there is no serial number involved in the BG check.

Here's typically how it goes.. you agree to purchase the gun. The dealer sits you down with a pen and a form 4473. You fill in all kinds of information, from address, eye color, height, weight, birth city/state, and a bunch of questions about eligibility. At the bottom there's a statement that you sign acknowledging that falsifying this information is a felony.

The dealer takes the 4473, compares it to your state ID, fills in the serial number, and calls NICS. They give the NICS agent their FFL number, and your information. The NICS agent asks what kind of firearm (long gun, handgun, or receiver) not the serial number and the agent checks the database. If there is a name in the NICS database that significantly matches on multiple points (like name / address, name / DOB / city, SSN, etc) then the dealer is given a 'deny'. If there are fewer matching criteria, the dealer is given a 'hold', which gives the NICS three days to investigate (Yes, there are two "John Smith"'s in Columbus, OH with the same DOB, but this one has a different birth city and eye color.) If no information matches, NICS gives a 'pass'.)

[farminator3000]

56. you have no idea what the cops know or how they know it and it proves nothing

NOBODY WOULD BUY A BLACK MARKET GUN FROM A GUN STORE!

really, you are quite out there.

ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

or maybe they would!

you're also making the assumption that all dealers are clean!

[X_Digger]

58. I do know what cops know, my family is a cop shop.

Virginia state police, a brother-in-law who used to be a constable in MD and now works in NC, grandfather who was a justice of the peace and deputy sheriff in VA & WV..

I can't avoid hearing about it around the thanksgiving table.

[farminator3000]

60. working this case, are they?

so to review-

tiahrt is steaaming crock of BS

what few gun laws there are suck.

a lot of dealers are dirty..

but that doesn't matter, because anyone who wants a gun can get one with NO BG check.

your position is preposterous in light of actual facts.

thanks for your input.

[X_Digger]

62. To review.. BG checks != 4473's which aren't destroyed.

Cops can and do trace guns, regardless of Tiahardt.

4473's are used in straw purchase prosecutions.

BATFE has millions of 4473's on file, and get them by the truckload.

You were wrong in post #19.

[farminator3000]

65. i couldn't care less about the details

it said the guns came from ohio and MD, ohio has crappy gun laws and MD has no BG check.

but the dealers only keep records for 24 hours(thanks, nra), which i imagine is a royal pain in the ass for the cops.

i'm sure that's just one reason cops don't like the NRA either.

the big picture=NRA are scum, you are out of your mind for defending them, cops have a royal pain in the ass tracing guns.

have some respect. for people instead of GUNZ

edit: no BG check in either state, so your entire argument is a crock

[X_Digger]

67. All states have background checks from federally licensed dealers.

You can't be serious saying that two states are ignoring federal law.

[farminator3000]

68. you can't be serious. at all. dealers aren't involved at all for the 12th time

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.[16][17]

wiki

[X_Digger]

69. If you mean private sales, then *say* private sales.

Blanket generalizations like "no BG check in either state" are silly.

[farminator3000]

70. oh for the everloving crap of the ages. i'm saying THERE ARE TOO MANY GODDAMN GUNS

which is why someone gets shot every 45 minutes. just grow up.

homeless people selling them on the street? really?

Stevens Point (WI) Journal
Police ask for help finding stolen guns
Mon Jan 28, 2013 06:20 AM EST

Baton Rouge (LA) Advocate
Officers seize stolen guns, drugs in Baker
Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:14 PM EST

Daytona Beach (FL) News-Journal -
Deputies: NSB High student found with stolen guns, 262 rounds of ammunition
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:10 PM EST

Columbia (SC) WIS -
Report: Guns stolen at gun show
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:25 AM EST

Denver (CO) KMGH -
PD: Kids use guns, stolen car in spree
Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:08 PM EST

Albany (NY) WRGB -
Police: Homeless man cashed checks, sold stolen guns
Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:21 AM EST

http://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610
2012 was a record year for gun sales, with more than 19.5 million background checks run for gun purchases, up almost 20% from the previous year. But while legitimate sales skyrocket, huge numbers of illegal guns are hitting the streets.

According to the Justice Department, more than 1.4 million guns were stolen or lost between 2005 and 2010.

[farminator3000]

46. i mean really. think about reality, please.

'i'm gonna go buy 150 guns and dump them on the black market.

the first thing i will do is fill out all the forms correctly, so the cops can come after me when someone gets murdered with them"

[X_Digger]

48. Dealers are required to check ID.. for the background check.

And the ID has to match the 4473. If a person were able to forge ID, then no amount of retention of background check data would stop the transfer.

Nice red herring.

[farminator3000]

50. THEY ARE CRIMINALS THEY DIDN'T GET THEM FROM A DEALER OR FILL OUT A FORM

good lord, you are out of your mind.

[X_Digger]

51. Which has nothing to do with Tiahardt. Keep dodging. n/t

[farminator3000]

54. no, tiahrt has EVERYTHING to do with this- because it is so totally awful

How Tiahrt Harms Law Enforcement
While some components of the Tiahrt Amendments were improved in 2007 and 2009, several damaging provisions continue to tie the hands of law enforcement.

NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours:
The Tiahrt Amendments require the Justice Department to destroy the record of a buyer whose NICS background check was approved within 24 hours. This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:
While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts. ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

State and local authorities are still restricted from using trace data to fully investigate corrupt gun dealers and traffickers:
While the FY 2010 appropriations language restores full access to crime gun trace data for state and local law enforcement, the Tiahrt Amendments continue to restrict what state and local law enforcement can do with trace data they have gathered. For example, state and local law enforcement are still prohibited from using trace data in civil proceedings to suspend or revoke the license of a gun dealer who was caught breaking the law.
http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/federal/tiahrt.shtml

[X_Digger]

57. That's not even internally consistent.

This makes it harder to catch law-breaking gun dealers who falsify their records, and it makes it more difficult to identify and track straw purchasers who buy guns on behalf of criminals who wouldn't be able to pass a background check.

If a dealer falsifies their records, they would do so before running the background check.

And straw purchasers are already caught using the 4473. Silly on its face.

ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns:
While dealers must notify ATF if they discover that guns from their inventories have been lost or stolen, the Tiahrt Amendments prevent ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct annual physical inventory checks to detect losses and thefts.

If the ATF has probable cause to believe that a dealer's inventory has been falsified, they have the regulatory power to force an inventory check. What they can't do is randomly pick a dealer and ask them to do an inventory. Due process.

the Tiahrt Amendments continue to restrict what state and local law enforcement can do with trace data they have gathered

Law enforcement (via the BATFE) has access to all 4473's for guns involved in crime. What they can't do is go on a fishing expedition.

I'm not surprised that you chose a source like Bloomberg's MAIG. Of course they have their own crosses to bear..

http://www.notangsushi.com/?p=72

[farminator3000]

59. maybe because 'internally consistent' has no meaning?

But the data that has been made available since the 1994 report lends credence to that estimate. For example, a 2012 analysis of how handguns are sold in Michigan, the Michigan State Police reported that 48 percent of all handguntransfers in the state are conducted through private sales where no background check is required. Criminals in particular tend to seek weapons from sources where they are not subject to background checks - only 11 percent of inmates incarcerated for gun crimes said that they got the weapon from a licensed gun dealer, according to a 2004 survey.

Data from the gun industry itself also suggests sales without a background check are commonplace. According to 2010 data from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, only 45 percent of assault weapon owners reported buying their firearm from a retail location, including independent and chain retail stores. Approximately half of respondents reported buying their firearm from venues where a background check is not necessarily required, including over the Internet, from gun shows, or through a face-to-face sale.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/25/discredited-gun-researcher-john-lotts-failed-at/192391

[X_Digger]

61. Lol, mediamatters flubbed up on the MI law..

.. all handguns are registered, and a license to purchase is required- which includes a background check, even for private sales.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

[farminator3000]

64. not if the a-holes at the NRA have their way, actually would be the truth

Michigan: Bill Repealing Permit-to-Purchase Passes State Senate, Goes to House for Concurrence Vote

Posted on December 12, 2012

Today, the Michigan Senate approved House Bill 5225 by a 27 to 11 vote. If enacted, this NRA-priority legislation would repeal the long-standing and outdated license-to-purchase system for handgun purchases through a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer (FFL).

HB 5225, despite passing in the state House by an overwhelming 74 to 36 vote, required some last minute changes to guarantee passage and the Governor’s signature this legislative session. The amended and passed version of HB 5225 is a big first step, in what will be many steps, to repeal Michigan’s antiquated and ineffective gun control measures.

from the a-hole's site ^^^

***

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/09/25/bing-godbee-eight-local-mayors-oppose-new-gun-bill/
Detroit Mayor Dave Bing said it could endanger law enforcement, adding, “During my administration, four Detroit police officers were shot by perpetrators using a shotgun that was legally sold without a background check.”

***

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/michigan/guns

NRA still assholes, you're still yapping about nothing, guns still everywhere

[aikoaiko]

18. Spoiler Alert: Stolen gun gets used in subsequent crime.

This is news to anyone?

[farminator3000]

20. update: there are about 500,000 stolen a year

This gun is no different from thousands of handguns just like it.

so that really could have said millions.

bad scene.

it has been in the news lately a bit- it seems we need more gun laws or something like that.

[Franker65]

28. Not unusual

But I think the deputy should have taken the gun out of his car. Could have been stolen in the home as well, but the chance would have been smaller.

[farminator3000]

34. Gun stolen after being misplaced by court officer Two people in court Monday to face charges-today

at least they found this one-
http://www.wmur.com/news/nh-news/Gun-stolen-after-being-misplaced-by-court-officer/-/9857858/18302772/-/b3vgvyz/-/index.html?absolute=true

On Friday, Concord District Court Security Officer Julie Bickford reported that her gun was missing and told police she may have mislaid it while using the bathroom.

Investigators say security tapes show 24-year-old Courtney Rojek leaving the bathroom shortly after Bickford, carrying a handgun.

They say that on the video, Rojek shows the gun to 33-year-old Jacob Noury, before they leave the court and drive away.

State police got search warrants for Noury's home in Barnstead. They say that's where they found the missing Glock 40 mm semi-automatic pistol.

***

another heartwarming story-
They seized approximately 4 ounces of heroin, a half-ounce of meth and 15 pounds of marijuana, along with a handgun and a rifle, both fitted with silencers, plus other handguns and rifles.
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130128/NEWS/301280325/-1/rss01

[loli phabay]

42. dont know why he left it in his car my glock is always on my hip unless im in the house

[MadHound]

63. Story of another gun, that has no serial number,

Manufactured by Stony Hill in 1851, it was bought by my great, great, great grandfather in his youth. Blackpowder, ball and cap, approximately fifty caliber. It was used in the Civil War, fighting in the vicious skirmishes that pitted brother against brother in the Missouri Civil War theater.

After the war, it went home, where it became a farm gun, used to put meat on the table, protect the livestock and other chores needed around the family farm. It, like the family farm, was passed down through the generations. My grandfather and father used this gun, in fact it saw regular use for a hundred years, even though other guns came and went. Well treated and kept in great condition, it continued to do what needed to be done.

I fired this gun when I was a kid. It kicked like a Missouri mule, especially with that hard metal butt plate. I was amazed by the accuracy of the gun, even more amazed when my grandfather, then in his mid seventies, put on a shooting demonstration with it. His ability with this gun, a gun he had grown up with all his life, was simply stunning.

It was last fired in the late eighties, by my father. It was passed on down to me upon his death, as was the family farm it had worked on. Though still in good condition, I decided to never fire it again, not wanting to risk blowing up a family heirloom, for that is what it is. It hangs upon my wall, a reminder of previous generations of my family, and what they went through.

It never murdered anybody, though it was used in self defense more than once. It was never stolen, or used to commit a crime. It is what is always has been, a trusty tool that could be relied upon to do its job whenever called upon.

That is the story of one gun, but it represents many, many guns. Most guns are simply tools, used when called upon. Sadly, we only hear of the ones that are misused or abused. But they don't represent the majority of guns in this country.