Armed 'Good Guys' And The Realities Of Facing A Gunman

[jpak]

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/29/170456129/armed-good-guys-and-the-realities-of-facing-a-gunman

<snip>

It was 2005, at the Tacoma Mall in Washington state. McKown had been chatting with friends when gunshots rang out. Everyone hid; but McKown had a pistol. For years, he'd carried a legal concealed weapon, with the thought that someday he'd protect others. Now it seemed that moment had come.

Enlarge image
Dan McKown, who confronted a gunman at a shopping mall in 2005, says he doesn't regret his actions, although he was shot five times and is now in a wheelchair.

Martin Kaste/NPR
Gun drawn, McKown scanned for the shooter. But the gunshots stopped. Unsure what had happened, McKown tucked his pistol back under his coat — just as the shooter walked right in front of him.

"So anyway, I'm standing there like Napoleon Bonaparte, with his hand, you know, in his jacket," he recalls. "So I said, 'Young man, I think you need to put your weapon down.' "

That moment of vulnerability gave the other guy just enough time to shoot McKown. The bullet hit his spine, and he found himself unable to aim his own gun.

<more>

[Zoeisright]

1. Yep.

Gun humpers think they are some form of Rambo or John Wayne, when reality is actually very different.

[Common Sense Party]

3. .

"gun humpers"????






You TaliBanners are so predictable. It would be tedious if it weren't so funny.

yep yup yep yup yep yup

[bongbong]

18. Don't be so Delicate

You Flower.

[Common Sense Party]

21. Gee, it looks like my one and only ignoree must have responded.

What a shame I won't be able to read their pearls of wisdom, to savor the depth and vitality of their logical argument.

[TeamPooka]

44. Your language choices, re "Talibanners", are those used by Republicans and Freepers.

Are you one of them?
Just curious since you sound like one and use their language and "nicknames".

[Common Sense Party]

48. Someone uses a stupid term like "gun humpers," I will use an equally

stupid term like "TaliBanners." It isn't a Repug or Freeper term. It does accurately depict the repressive attitude many have toward inanimate objects, though.

[Silentnomore]

2. Sometimes it works out well.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

This guy stopped the Portland Mall shooter.

[jpak]

4. No he did not

NRA myth FAIL

yup

[Lizzie Poppet]

28. We may never know, actually.

The shooter is dead, and he would have been the only one able to say definitively if spotting Nick Meli with his handgun drawn was what caused him to stop shooting at others and turn his weapon on himself. It seems to be the case that no further shots besides the suicide shot were fired after the shooter spotted Meli. Whether that "stopped" the rampage is open to debate (and will never be known).

[October]

5. Sometimes? Not good enough. Not reason enough.

And I think your choice of word, "sometimes," is generous. "Rarely" would be more accurate.

[Common Sense Party]

7. I guess the Trolley Square shooting (SLC) doesn't count,

since it was an off-duty cop from another city who stopped the shooter.

[TeamPooka]

43. there's like maybe 3 examples of you can use but thousands of shootings and deaths etc

where you can't say anything except "2nd amendment" but I don't see anyone in that "militia" the Constitution talks about in the 2nd A.

[Hoyt]

8. Yea, and a frail elderly lady stopped Loughner without a gun.

[Common Sense Party]

9. And without beans.

[frylock]

17. scares ya, doesn't it..

that an elderly woman disarmed loughner in between loading magazines. and she did it without a gun.

[Common Sense Party]

22. Why on earth would that scare me?

Does it scare you? Are you that insecure? You poor thing. Why don't you go lie down until the vapors have passed.

[frylock]

25. it scares you because it destroys a couple of gun humper arguments..

that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. in this case, a good woman without a gun disarmed a bad guy rather handily. the other argument destroyed in this instance is that limiting magazine capacity is useless, as these guys are so good that they can reload in the blink of an eye. well, again, this woman managed to disarm loughner in between reloads.

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. Mostly this just shows the inanity of "black and white" arguments.

Sometimes armed and unarmed bystanders alike can stop armed criminals. Sometimes they can't. Some people can change magazines in an eyeblink. Some can't. There are as many variables as there are incidents, really...

[Common Sense Party]

32. Now, now...there's no call for bringing logic and common sense into an emotional debate. n/t

[Lizzie Poppet]

34. Sorry.

What was I thinking...?

[Common Sense Party]

33. So you ARE that insecure.

Perhaps you can take some self-esteem course.

[frylock]

35. you got nothing, slappy..

nothing. now go kiss your guns.

[Coyote_Tan]

37. So gratifying...

... to see well thought out, rational debate.

Oh wait...

[frylock]

42. not nearly as gratifying as being lectured by a n00b

[Coyote_Tan]

46. One doesn't need...

... to spend years in front of a computer monitor to realize that the last ditch effort to win a debate is to ignore the subject altogether and attack on a personal level instead.

All it shows is a lack of substance and an appeal to base emotion...

Bravo...

[lapislzi]

39. Do you have anything to, you know, actually contribute?

Beyond sarcasm and insults, I mean. I have read several of your comments on this thread, and they add nothing to the discussion except to expose your own bias.

Maybe you should keep quiet while the adults are talking.

[Common Sense Party]

49. Sure thing. Make sure you point out one of these "adults" if you see one in this thread.

Thanks. Have a great evening.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. And sometimes it works out like, well, Trayvon Martin. nt

[Whovian]

20. You do realize that in the link you provide, the "good guy" didn't fire a single shot?

Are you suggesting that the mere sight of a gun will drive "bad guys" to suicide?

Okay, then.

[Eleanors38]

30. The PBS story on the same incident mentioned that any disruption

In a murderer's routine is key, shots fired or no. The lone armed security guard at Columbine (who was off-campus at the time the FUs began shooting) rushed back and twice fired long range bursts with a handgun, disrupting the punks' routine and driving them from a crowded patio.

Incidentally, the Tacoma citizen who was shot faulted himself (giving a humane choice of dropping the gun to the punk) for his injuries. Yet he does not regret his actions, even though confined to a chair.

BTW, there is no guarantee that things will turn out well in an armed confrontation; that and allusions to John Wayne are tired gun controllers' memes.

[lame54]

27. better read the article you posted

[Hoyt]

6. I feel for the guy, but apparently gunner would have left at that point. Instead, our would be hero

will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

At least, he didn't shoot an innocent bystander as is very likely when most public gun toters -- no matter how many paper targets resembling humans they have practiced on in preparation for the day they can play cowboy -- have less than a few seconds to assess a situation. I know a lot of public toters love to train for that moment -- even training with their kids on a family outing -- but they are irrational if they think they are going to calmly respond as their "lethal weapons instructor/mentor" taught them in the training room.

If people are stupid enough to believe they'll respond properly, they need to be banned from having lethal weapons.

[Common Sense Party]

11. How is it "apparent" he would have left at that point?

I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.

[SQUEE]

38. I have every confidence I will respond, coldly and properly to many scenarios

And many that I know who have had proper and realistic training would as well.
Catch 22, if a person is training to counter these very real but completely uncommon threats, they will be labeled as paranoid and playing cowboy. You can't have it both ways.
Besides, I am sure your quick disassembly technique will save the lives of those around you. or a tactical can of beans. Having never committed a felony, I am glad I have the right to be able to defend myself, and not worry about having to change my line of work.

[Hoyt]

40. New I'd encountered you before. My can of beans works well -- has kept criminals at bay without

having to resort to a gun in my pants. And, I don't have to look like a fool carrying a gun.

Enjoy your guns.

[SQUEE]

45. I have been here a while, also I don't "carry" in public..

and if I did, my firearm of choice would designate a messenger bag or small back pack...

And yes I do enjoy them, if only that were enough for you, but no, your fear, projection and paranoia lead you to want to remove my enjoyment and rights.

[FarCenter]

10. It's stupid to give the perp a warning

Take cover, draw, stay concealed, and shoot to kill when the perp exposes himself.

[mokawanis]

13. Pretty simple, eh?

Too bad there's no guarantee it will work out that way. What if you miss the perp and shoot a kid in the head? What if a cop thinks you're a second shooter aiding the perp? My point is all kinds of things can go wrong and it would be foolish to subscribe to some heroic fantasy where you blast the perp and become an instant hero. Might work that way, might go horribly wrong.

[FarCenter]

14. No, it's complicated, but blabbering to the perp makes it more so.

Note that I said to take cover first. Any action after that requires good judgement. Drawing attention to yourself is not good judgement.

Your weapon is for self defense. You have no obligation to go up against a better armed opponent unless you, yourself are threatened.

[Fumesucker]

23. "When you have to shoot, shoot don't talk" -Tuco

[kenny blankenship]

12. "When you need to shoot, SHOOT. Don't talk."

--Tuco Benedicto Pacífico Juan María Ramírez

Wise words.

[War Horse]

15. Most folks don't have any idea

what a real, live situation is like. That's part of why this "good guy with a gun" stuff scares me so much.

[Common Sense Party]

24. Of course, most police officers don't have any idea what a "live situation" is like, either.

Still, we trust that they are good guys with guns and will do well if and when the time comes.

[bongbong]

19. The whole "good guy" thing is a huge lie

How can you PROVE you're a "good guy"? How can you PROVE you won't snap in a situation? How can you PROVE you won't be the guy gunning down innocents, either by accident or because you snapped or had bad judgement?

It's just another in a long line of NRA Talking Points (AKA Big Lies)

[rjj621]

36. No one can PROVE it

nor can they PROVE they won't take a kitchen knife or pocket knife and stab someone out of bad judgement or snapping. Trained military or even cops can't PROVE they won't snap in a situation and have had bad judgement calls. It's really easy to sit back and second guess those stories when we aren't facing it ourselves.

Some of the gun discussions and views from both sides are reasonable and intelligent, some I agree with and some I don't. Seems like much is based on nothing more than closed mind personal bias and reaching to justify it to everyone else or in most cases after a tragedy of any sort, knee jerk reactions to make people feel better.

Also, both sides of this debate, like most debates, LOVE to pick and choose facts they want to accept and listen to while ignoring, trying to down play, or scouring the net to find counter points

One thing that worries me is this ridiculous trend of "should have seen it coming" because they were quiet, depressed, angry, grades slipping...etc. Counselors at schools are looking for the littlest of things that may be a sign, the start hounding the kids and parents about about their feelings and potential actions, essentially making something out of nothing all in the name of BS safety. Happened to two kids at my daughter middle school and based on poems the English teacher asked them to write. It was a nightmare for the kids and parents and no one cares because no one wants to think they may have missed something so they FIND things in what kids have been doing for all of human existence. Kids suspended for using his fingers to point like a gun, that's what kids do, many boys have a natural fascination with guns starting right around the 6 or 7 age range. When I was that age and playing cops and robbers we made fun of the kids who didn't have realistic looking guns and they had to be the boring cops.

I can't help but wonder about us as a society being so quick to point a finger and lay blame that perhaps we're missing the fact that some of our very own actions, opinions, and views being enacted to 'protect' everyone are partially causing some of these problems.

[bongbong]

47. Ah, more NRA Talking Points

So you think somebody can slaughter 20 school children as easily with a knife as with a gun?

Boy, you gun nuts (Delicate Flowers) are CRAZEEEEE!




> our very own actions, opinions, and views being enacted to 'protect' everyone are partially causing some of these problems.

Yes, there are WAY too many guns. That's the problem.

[rjj621]

50. How exactly

does someone raising other points or considerations that DARE question any one side of a debate automatically make them a staunch supporter of the other side as you implied by classifying me as a 'gun nut'? Really? That's your retort? Someone questions your stance or statement and they must automatically be for what you are so strongly against? Do you frequently stoop to these methods and assumptions?

[bongbong]

51. Yawn

Your post was the 23,554,965th regurgitation of the standard NRA Talking Point euqating knives and guns.

A laughable and long-debunked lie.

[clarice]

26. curious

Does it mention in that story whether McKown's actions
deterred the shooter from killing other innocent people in the mall? If so, then he is a real hero. You mentioned that McKown
"heard shots". What or who was the gunman shooting at?

[guardian]

31. So the behavior/actions of one individual

is your justification for a national policy that affects hundreds of millions of people?

[rjj621]

41. Seems to be a fairly accepted practice

To one degree or another a fraction of a percent of bad apples will be the result of people screaming for tighter (or just more) laws to 'protect' millions of other people who were at little to no risk to begin with or even to stop them from ever doing anything wrong that most wouldn't have done anyway. I would give damn near anything for a real bottle of classic green death flavor NyQuil instead of the worthless crap we have now and I don't want to go to the pharmacy and hand over my ID and sign a few forms in blood just to get some decent meds to help kick a cold.