Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:11 AM Jan 2013

Hollywood's depiction of guns is fraudulent, says Dustin Hoffman

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/jan/30/hollywood-guns-fraudulent-dustin-hoffman


'There's nothing interesting about guns' … Dustin Hoffman. Photograph: David Levene

The Oscar-winning actor Dustin Hoffman has dismissed the depiction of gun violence in Hollywood as "fraudulent" and claimed that studios actively discriminate against actors who refuse to carry firearms onscreen.

Interviewed on National Public Radio in the US, The Graduate star became the latest high-profile figure to wade into the debate following the killing of 20 children and six adults at the Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012. Advocates of gun control have used the opportunity to press for new laws to combat similar massacres, but Hollywood has also come under sustained pressure for what many see as its glamorisation of firearm use.

Hoffman, 75, said he had tried throughout his career to avoid films which required him to use guns on screen – though he conceded he carried a weapon in Straw Dogs, Hook and Little Big Man – for very personal reasons and because he does not believe they should be part of the entertainment industry.

"I have always felt passionate about the fact that the audience is identifying (with movie violence) in a very fraudulent way," Hoffman revealed. "I don't find anything interesting about a gun. A gun is there to threaten or kill."
99 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Hollywood's depiction of guns is fraudulent, says Dustin Hoffman (Original Post) xchrom Jan 2013 OP
Go Dustin! People should see his new, Quartet, which he directed. Wonderful film. graham4anything Jan 2013 #1
exactly Locrian Jan 2013 #2
Movies have a first admendment right to use guns if they want. Travis_0004 Jan 2013 #3
and I wanted to see the Dark Knight,then some masked extremist shot up a theatre for political cause graham4anything Jan 2013 #16
Batman quit carrying a gun in 1939, klook Jan 2013 #52
but someone in a joker mask shot up a theatre because he wasn't armed with a ping pong ball graham4anything Jan 2013 #58
...or a hammer, or a knife, or any of the other weapons he could have used klook Jan 2013 #62
last week someone with a knife stabbed ONE person in a bed,bath-and she survived graham4anything Jan 2013 #66
Sorry, but movies, like corporations, don't have rights. The Constitution was sinkingfeeling Jan 2013 #20
Wealthy, powerful people Ian Iam Jan 2013 #75
Movies don't have rights ashling Jan 2013 #21
Yes, but people have the right to make movies. EOTE Jan 2013 #26
Seems someone hyprocritical to be a Progressive and support guns in movies but not for real azalia Jan 2013 #56
Hollywood has always been "owned" by the liquor and cigarette industries. xtraxritical Jan 2013 #82
Jackie Chan is way awesomer than gun-toting faux heros. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2013 #72
ban guns in movies trumad Jan 2013 #5
"Of mice and Men" sure would have a different ending, wouldn't it? JohnnyRingo Jan 2013 #57
Without Catcher in the Rye, John Lennon might be alive today. Who knows, but graham4anything Jan 2013 #59
It's hard to tell what to ban in a free society, isn't it? JohnnyRingo Jan 2013 #74
Not really Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #7
i agree Enrique Jan 2013 #14
Yes, Quartet is great! ananda Jan 2013 #48
As a spokesman from Hollywood his opinion Bay Boy Jan 2013 #4
Good for him reorg Jan 2013 #6
Straight Time has become one of my favorite performances of his CBGLuthier Jan 2013 #11
I read that it's one of Elmore Leonard's favorite movies reorg Jan 2013 #17
You know, you may be right about the watch CBGLuthier Jan 2013 #19
I had no idea reorg Jan 2013 #22
Oh? theKed Jan 2013 #27
I know reorg Jan 2013 #30
I'm fairly certain theKed Jan 2013 #31
absolutely not reorg Jan 2013 #37
Kick! Heidi Jan 2013 #8
mornin Miss Thing xchrom Jan 2013 #9
Well, mornin', handsome. Heidi Jan 2013 #13
Completely bullshit. nt bemildred Jan 2013 #10
Yep, he made the list... RevStPatrick Jan 2013 #12
Way to support artistic expression of film makers Dustin. aikoaiko Jan 2013 #15
Actors like Dustin do not audition fo roles at all. It goes like this: Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #36
I have to laugh at action cheese, Dash87 Jan 2013 #18
Love Dustin... ReRe Jan 2013 #23
Me too. ananda Jan 2013 #24
Hear, hear! smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #79
I know it's a very minor thing, but I wish movies would show how long it takes to clean a gun Recursion Jan 2013 #25
that would really help I think... Locrian Jan 2013 #29
Very True and Funny 4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #60
You forgot about how much louder real-life gunfire is, too Blue_Tires Jan 2013 #65
That's an interesting bit of psychoacoustics Recursion Jan 2013 #70
some interesting arguments... Locrian Jan 2013 #28
I think Dirty Harry was a beginning of something Whisp Jan 2013 #32
It goes way before that.. AsahinaKimi Jan 2013 #34
these US classic tv westerns all have guns Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #38
That is true but Whisp Jan 2013 #39
Gun violence is still Gun Violence AsahinaKimi Jan 2013 #42
Maybe it can be broken into a couple categories: Whisp Jan 2013 #44
Kill Bill was arty violence that was pointless. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #49
I think it was true that after JAWS.. AsahinaKimi Jan 2013 #81
The sad ghing is you are right. We havelearned, through media that violence first is good rustydog Jan 2013 #46
and to add to that, take mega sports for another example. Whisp Jan 2013 #51
Zatoichi! I love those movies! The blind samurai!!! stevenleser Jan 2013 #88
gun lust unblock Jan 2013 #54
yeh, well said. 'the myth of the glorious, righteous kill.' Whisp Jan 2013 #55
i think life must be a big letdown for some people after war. unblock Jan 2013 #61
what I see on those shows are very much unlike what my uncles thought of war Whisp Jan 2013 #76
Dirty Harry--the "hero"--operated outside the law. truebluegreen Jan 2013 #83
Dirty Harry is something of a Rorschach test nxylas Feb 2013 #95
Maybe. truebluegreen Feb 2013 #96
You are probably right nxylas Feb 2013 #97
<snort> truebluegreen Feb 2013 #98
It's funny, I watched some old vintage westerns - The Cisco Kid - just the other night NBachers Jan 2013 #84
Maybe you should actually watch a Dirty Harry movie sometime Dreamer Tatum Jan 2013 #67
dirty harry was a sexist piece of shit Whisp Jan 2013 #77
Wait...hang on...a renegade cop in the 70's was protrayed as SEXIST? Dreamer Tatum Jan 2013 #78
Car explosions too.... JohnnyRingo Jan 2013 #33
My favorite might be the car crashing into the swimming pool and exploding..... Marrah_G Feb 2013 #99
It's not guns or explosions SCVDem Jan 2013 #35
So many movies are about stalking and killing women. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #90
Quick! SCVDem Jan 2013 #92
But if you put boobs in a movie, the righteous a-holes will act like a massacre happened. Crowman1979 Jan 2013 #40
They won't let their kids go to a movie with nudity. JohnnyRingo Jan 2013 #45
See my comment above re:Clockwork Orange. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #50
Make nudity, not violence! Crowman1979 Jan 2013 #41
Sheeittt, Wayne LaPierre's depiction of guns if fraudulent! rustydog Jan 2013 #43
I heard that interview on Fresh Air and it was great. nt DollarBillHines Jan 2013 #47
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jan 2013 #53
SAY IT LIKE IT IS!!! Skittles Jan 2013 #63
Say hello to my little friend... LiberalLovinLug Jan 2013 #64
Need to start boycotting these movies. Start with the new Stallone flick JBoy Jan 2013 #68
What? Movie depictions aren't realistic?!? Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #69
And here's to you Mr. Hoffman! Dont call me Shirley Jan 2013 #71
The fraud is that movies/TV don't accurately depict gunshot wounds and dying of gunshot FarCenter Jan 2013 #73
Too true! AmyDeLune Jan 2013 #86
See my reply #49 above. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #91
bingo . . . to "kill" or to "threaten" to kill DrDan Jan 2013 #80
My first reaction is -- just guns? kudzu22 Jan 2013 #85
This is, I assume, the end of his gunfighter period. nolabear Jan 2013 #87
As opposed to it's depiction of other things? hughee99 Jan 2013 #89
Oh Dustin, you silly man Android3.14 Jan 2013 #93
He's not telling people what movies they can or can't make. IveWornAHundredPants Jan 2013 #94
 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
1. Go Dustin! People should see his new, Quartet, which he directed. Wonderful film.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:22 AM
Jan 2013

"I have always felt passionate about the fact that the audience is identifying (with movie violence) in a very fraudulent way," Hoffman revealed. "I don't find anything interesting about a gun. A gun is there to threaten or kill."

He is 100% spot-on.

there is nothing else a gun is made for but that.

I fully agree that Quentin Tarentino is a smut artist.
There is no satire or irony, because the rightwing doesn't do satire or irony and QT himself gets off on the gratitous violence in his film.
Because he never has redemption.

Clint Eastwood to his credit has made the last two decades all about being anti-gun.
The brilliant Gran Torino and Unforgiven show that.

and it matters not if early in careers people did otherwise

after all
90% of people used to smoke
now 90% don't.

movies should ban guns and cigarettes and not glorify them unless done in a comical
roadrunner/coyote type of way.

But the point should also be made-
Quentin Tarentino and others steal from the Japanese directors/films.
And they don't have our problem with guns.
Because only in America is this worship of guns brought to real life.

one should treat guns as a epidemic virus.

put a ring around access then treat the ones who already had it.

imho, of course you can disagree with it.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
2. exactly
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:28 AM
Jan 2013

>>And they don't have our problem with guns.
>>Because only in America is this worship of guns brought to real life.


TV/Movies/Games etc provide the 24/7/365 advertising (desire) for guns as 'cool' tools of the hero. And the gun industry is happy to fill that desire.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
3. Movies have a first admendment right to use guns if they want.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:30 AM
Jan 2013

If you want to boycott any movies that use guns, feel free, and if enough people boycott, the movies will change, but if I go see a new James bond movie, and James decides not to use his gun and instead gets karate training from Jackie Chan, I'm going to be pissed.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
16. and I wanted to see the Dark Knight,then some masked extremist shot up a theatre for political cause
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:52 AM
Jan 2013

and now MY FIRST AMENDMENT right to peaceful assembly is shattered

one can NOT yell fire in a non-burning theatre, cause a riot, stampede
or yell a terroristic word going into an airport

actions lead to real consequences

on paper things sound nice

but by the same thing, people with the flu because of Wakefield don't get vaccines
then they also go to work, go to school and infect those who for one reason or other that are legit, can't get a vaccine (say a pregnant woman) and the babies die
Yes, legally they are allowed to.

Yes, the KKK can march, however yes, you can spit back at them and laugh and mock them
HOWEVER with someone with a gun
if you spit or laugh at them, they will kill you.
Instead of just keep marching

adults should be responsible

and QT is NOT a responsible adult. He knows what he is doing and he to use the smut term that he wants, gets off on it.
How do I know? Because of the type of movie he himself watches.
Those movies are NOT satires or irony.

And he leads rightwing soundbytes
(I am Jewish) and quite honestly, his Inglorius Bastards perverted the truth and is the line the NRA always uses, and NO the holocaust would not have been stopped if everyone had a gun,
everyone who died still would have died

You live by the gun, you die by a faster gunslinger
and there is no stopping someone with a gun if they are going to use it
therefore, guns need to be stopped.

I applaud all.
Because the rightwing does not know irony, sarcasm, wit. they just live out the characters.

I can watch Death Wish with Charles Bronson and root for him IN THE MOVIES
I can say Bernie Goetz was a paranoic vigilante who was NOT a hero, and what he did should I myself would not have a gun, nor in any way think what Kersey the character did should be done in real life.
I can give up watching a new version of it.

I would welcome Quentin Tarentino to do what David Lynch(artiste') did
Do a Straight Story with Richard Farnsworth and a lawnmower.
One of the best film Lynch ever did.
And no violence at all.
Just a simple story.

all the NRA soundbytes have been proven false.

And Twilight Zone in the 50s/60s made 2 great episodes
one about a gunslinger
one about a pool hustler
and both were about the fastest/bestest in the world, now deceased, who had to keep proving he was the fastest, best, in the afterlife and was never at peace
Til the person who was faster and better won and shot him dead.
Your gun does nothing til when someone is faster than you.



klook

(12,134 posts)
52. Batman quit carrying a gun in 1939,
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:37 PM
Jan 2013

the same year the National Firearms Act was upheld by unanimous Supreme Court decision -- as this interesting article by Jill Lepore points out.

klook

(12,134 posts)
62. ...or a hammer, or a knife, or any of the other weapons he could have used
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:13 PM
Jan 2013

according to the gun zealots.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
66. last week someone with a knife stabbed ONE person in a bed,bath-and she survived
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:25 PM
Jan 2013

one person

If he had a gun, 50 could have died.

every NRA soundbyte has been repudiated.

every single one.

 

Ian Iam

(386 posts)
75. Wealthy, powerful people
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:50 PM
Jan 2013

Including some in Hollywood. (I make no claim of superiority: The rich have always had the most power. In every country, every society.)

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
26. Yes, but people have the right to make movies.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:22 AM
Jan 2013

And that right is protected by the first amendment.

azalia

(7 posts)
56. Seems someone hyprocritical to be a Progressive and support guns in movies but not for real
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:20 PM
Jan 2013

Its obvious to me that the gun industry promotes guns in movies just like big tobacco promotes cigarette use as "cool". I do not believe they have a 1st amendment right to promote violence just like people don't have a first amendment right to go into a crowded movie theater and shout "fire, fire!". It should be illegal.

 

trumad

(41,692 posts)
5. ban guns in movies
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:34 AM
Jan 2013

Should we go back in the history of movies and ban movies with guns?

Your statement is one of the most asinine statements ever on DU.

JohnnyRingo

(18,581 posts)
57. "Of mice and Men" sure would have a different ending, wouldn't it?
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:22 PM
Jan 2013

Some people just don't think things through.

Maybe all movies should just be like "Bambi".....oops, forgot about the hunters.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
59. Without Catcher in the Rye, John Lennon might be alive today. Who knows, but
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:36 PM
Jan 2013

because of a gun and a bullet, he most certainly was blown away.

90% of the public used to smoke
90% of the public don't smoke today

thanks to a man of vision, there is no smoking almost anywhere in NYC
and thanks to a man putting his money where his mouth is, and pushing Andrew and others,
NYS has the toughest laws in the nation

If only there were ways to keep the cars from other states loaded with guns in their trunks,
out of the state.Same with the other states like California and Illinois
put a ring around it

JohnnyRingo

(18,581 posts)
74. It's hard to tell what to ban in a free society, isn't it?
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:37 PM
Jan 2013

First it's ban movies with guns, then look to book banning that we might prevent the murder of '60s icons. Ban cigarettes to protect people from themselves, and maybe we should put a filter on speech so hate can't be spread on the airwaves and internet. Ban fast food restaurants to keep Americans heart happy and thin.

Pretty soon everything you personally don't like is banned from our free society, and you can live in harmony with the 99% of Americans who agree with you 100% of the time. Unfortunately that doesn't work. Eventually, someone will want to ban something you enjoy. Perhaps it'll be coffee, chocolate, or soda, but statistics can lie and you'll suddenly find that you're actually in a smaller group than you were led to believe.

Your statistics on smoking is misleading for instance. Pehaps it's 90% of the people you know. Indeed, one in five adults do currently still smoke. Though that percentage is on a downward trend it doesn't count those under 18 years of age. Others misuse statistics to back their beliefs as well. When the American Cancer Society cite figures that prove cigarettes kill, they count all lung cancer cases in the US as cigarette related deaths. If they're non-smokers, then it must be second hand tobacco smoke. The truth is, sometimes it's our environment. Sometimes people are born with a cancer gene.

Cigarettes aren't healthy by any stretch, but pumping up stats to enact legislation is a double edged sword. Someday someone will use them to ban something you think is acceptable. Be it gambling, drinking, riding a motorcycle, or even skydiving, everything is up for grabs in society that passes laws to protect people from themselves.

The fact you hate tobacco and guns is valid, and you've a right to your opinion, but imposing your indignations on the populace at large is selfish at least, and dictatorial at worst.

I'm really not worried about it though, because you'll never find more than a small percentage of the country that wants to uphold your demands to publicly ban movies, guns, books or cigarettes, and life in America will go on as it has for hundreds of years. Even Gabby Giffords and her husband say they wants to keep their guns, and I can't say I blame them.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
7. Not really
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:44 AM
Jan 2013

the problem isn't the depiction of violence in films, or the use of guns in films, the problem is that there are nearly three hundred million guns in America. Banning guns in film will do fuck-all to reduce the number of murders and gun deaths; other countries (particularly other English-speaking countries like the UK, and Australia, and Canada) consume American films and TV series and guess what, they don't have the USA's problem with gun violence BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE AS MANY GUNS. It's really that simple. (Banning guns, though? Probably not going to happen, because far too many Americans are completely deranged on the subject and because of the antiquated and outdated Second Amendment.)

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
14. i agree
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:47 AM
Jan 2013

it all comes down to the number of guns out there. Real reform would have to involve drastically reducing the supply of that product, which means factories slowing down and stores closing. It is understandable that people don't want to talk about that.

ananda

(28,782 posts)
48. Yes, Quartet is great!
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:07 PM
Jan 2013

I watched it today, large audience midday. Nobody left till the end of the credits with great applause.

Tom Courtenay, Maggie Smith, Pauline Collins, Billy Connolly, Michael Gambon -- firsts among some very great equals!

Thank you for making this picture, Dustin Hoffman! And for your courageous stance on guns and violence!

Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
4. As a spokesman from Hollywood his opinion
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:33 AM
Jan 2013

carries more weight than most because he did consciously decide early in his career to avoid gun play in movies.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
6. Good for him
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:40 AM
Jan 2013

He also carries a gun in Straight Time (1978), a very good movie which I just watched yesterday, but I would agree that the guns in this movie were not used in a fraudulent way.

Nor was gun use glorified in Straw Dogs, or in Reservoir Dogs and other Tarantino movies, for that matter.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
11. Straight Time has become one of my favorite performances of his
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:09 AM
Jan 2013

Such an excellent portrayal of a man done in by his own inescapable nature. The final robbery when he just can not stick to the schedule because of his greed and the consequences of that are unforgettable.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
17. I read that it's one of Elmore Leonard's favorite movies
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:04 AM
Jan 2013

so I had to watch it, of course

But I think you are wrong, it's not greed when he searches for the watch, he wants it for his girlfriend because she had said that she liked it. The schedule is still fine, the one who screws up is his best friend, and we know the consequences of that.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
19. You know, you may be right about the watch
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:13 AM
Jan 2013

Forgot that, but he still took too long. Harry Dean damn near came unglued at the amount of time he was taking.

However, I think his friend may not have waited as long as he should.

Did you know Hoffman was going to direct it but after a day he backed out.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
22. I had no idea
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:31 AM
Jan 2013

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:47 AM - Edit history (2)

only became aware of the film very recently.

It's a great scene, and certainly meant to be a little ambiguous. I believe the viewer is supposed to think about it instead of just getting carried away with the suspense and the action, which makes it a good movie.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
27. Oh?
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:32 AM
Jan 2013





Tarantino couldn't like guns more if he made a movie titled "I FUCKING LOVE GUNS" that was an hour and a half of guys shooting penis-shaped guns.

Also, fuck Tarantino.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
30. I know
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:00 PM
Jan 2013

irony is hard to get.

Violence is omnipresent in Tarantino movies, but he doesn't glorify it. It took me a while to see it, but I'm fairly certain now that it's just a reflection - of what's in other movies, and society at large.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
37. absolutely not
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:30 PM
Jan 2013

He may be full of himself and not quite as good a screenwriter as he seems to believe, but as a director he is first-rate. Jackie Brown is one of the best movies made in the nineties and gets by without any splatter. He should have taken up Elmore Leonard's offer to adapt some more of the latter's novels.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
15. Way to support artistic expression of film makers Dustin.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:51 AM
Jan 2013

Discrimination?

Actor auditions for role of cop.
Refuses to carry gun in movie.
Film execs choose someone else who will
Film execs are discriminating against the first actor?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
36. Actors like Dustin do not audition fo roles at all. It goes like this:
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:26 PM
Jan 2013

Actor refuses to take a meeting about a gun heavy film. Execs meet with others, make a deal with one. Later, on another project, Execs refuse to meet with actor who did not want to do the gun movie for a light comedy or a costume drama. That is discrimination, when grudges are held and enforced to attempt to force artists to do material they do not care for. Violence is not the only such issue, many people faced discrimination because they turned down homophobic bullshit scripts,or because they did not want to do nudity, or because they found the film to be sexist or racist.
Many good straight artists lost work for saying 'I will not tell that joke, I will not play that stereotype for laughs'. And not just the work in the one film either.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
18. I have to laugh at action cheese,
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:10 AM
Jan 2013

Where the male hero always runs in with guns blazing, with cheesy music in the background, 'righteously' killing everything in sight without hesitating.

His 'man card is reissued' at that point, apparently.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
23. Love Dustin...
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:00 AM
Jan 2013
K&R

...and am proud of him for making a stand against the glorification of guns in film.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
25. I know it's a very minor thing, but I wish movies would show how long it takes to clean a gun
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:06 AM
Jan 2013

I know there are much bigger fish to fry (shooters being calm rather than terrified, suffering little psychological toll from killing people, gunfights being at way too far a range, one bullet killing instantly, etc.), but it does strike me that in 36 years of seeing millions of rounds fired, I've never once seen an action hero spending 45 minutes after the firefight cleaning his weapon.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
60. Very True and Funny
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:41 PM
Jan 2013

Nor do they show the Armorer Boss sending you back to the cleaning tables 2 and 3 times just to be an ass. Do not forget bleed out, and they all have to be punched 3 days later, great mid-watch time killer.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
70. That's an interesting bit of psychoacoustics
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:44 PM
Jan 2013

They are absolutely louder in real life, but the ambient noise in a movie theater is much less, so people perceive real gunshots as quieter (hence all the "I thought it was just firecrackers&quot . Plus audio engineers give movie guns more of a roar, I suppose because a pop doesn't sound as cool.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
28. some interesting arguments...
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:36 AM
Jan 2013

About how 'hell no we can't ban guns in movies' (which I don't believe anyone is asking for BTW), but then 'hey lets ban guns'....

And that 'too many guns is the problem' but creating the desire for them (via movies, tv, etc) is A-ok.

For BOTH privileges(?) there comes responsibility: if we don't want bans then we need to be responsible and say 'no - we won't profit off easily manipulating people either in movies, etc or selling guns to anyone with a pulse'. Otherwise we accept the culture and the situation we have - which at this point *I* don't think is acceptable anymore.






 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
32. I think Dirty Harry was a beginning of something
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:06 PM
Jan 2013

in Hollywood for that crazed gun shit.

Gawd I hate that fucking character so much. Big cool dude with the coolest biggest gunnest pointing it mostly at black people and talking in that snarky sarc soft voice (iirc, haven't seen that dreck of a movie for ages but I do have remembrances of him threatening a lot of black dudes).

fucking shit. go fuck yourself with a chair, Clint. and your producers and all thsose

AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
34. It goes way before that..
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:04 PM
Jan 2013

As I understand it, during the 50's and 60's almost every black and white TV plugged in was tuned to some station playing a Western .. Its funny, how in Japan had "chanbara" Japanese samurai sword movies much like the Westerns. (Akira Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai influenced The Magnificent Seven. Yojimbo influenced "Fist full of Dollars".)

Many people here on DU might even admit they grew up watching these "Heroes" of the West. GUN SMOKE was probably one of the highest rated TV shows of the time. There are a huge list of Westerns cranked out during that time period. I bet if you asked everyone on DU to name as many Westerns as they could many could tell you off the top of their head at least 10 or 12 Westerns featured regularly on TV.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
38. these US classic tv westerns all have guns
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:36 PM
Jan 2013

right in the titles:
'The Rifleman' 'Colt .45' 'Dead Man's Gun' 'Gunslinger' 'Guns of Paradise'
'The Guns of Will Sonnett' 'Man Without a Gun' 'Pistols 'n' Petticoats' 'The Restless Gun'
'Shotgun Slade' 'Have Gun, Will Travel' 'Gunsmoke' as you say..

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
39. That is true but
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:52 PM
Jan 2013

there was something different about Dirty Harry. I wish I could explain it better - like a transition from the old tame days to new and improved violence.

Bad guys in black hats and good ones in white hats, in cowboys and indians john wayne stuff was pretty tame really. Lots of shooting and not all that much blood. But Harry changed that. I think it was the beginning of the 70s that graphic violence on tv was taking hold and newer and more shocking things had to be done.

AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
42. Gun violence is still Gun Violence
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 02:58 PM
Jan 2013

It doesn't matter if you saw blood flying, massive bleeding.. AMERICA has had a gun culture for a long, long time. One didn't have to see the blood or bullet wounds to not think of it.

I watched the movie HITCHCOCK and he explained how in the shower scene of the movie Psycho, even though those in the audience didn't see the damage of what the knife did to the woman in the shower, they saw it in their heads. Even the censors were convinced back than that there was contact between the knife and the woman's body, when it was never shown.

I have been a fan of samurai movies for a long time. One of my favorite series was probably the most violent of its time. Zatoichi cut his way though multiple bad guys, and while in the beginning you never saw heads fly off, or arms chopped off, it was eventually added in later films in the 60s. The actors acted out being stuck down, and fell to the ground. You never saw the slash marks from one of the most lethal weapons of that time period, but you knew the bad guys were dead.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
44. Maybe it can be broken into a couple categories:
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:21 PM
Jan 2013

Just thinking out loud here.

1. Art
2. Promotion of gun sales

There are a lot of artsy movies that are super violent - take Kill Bill or Battle Royale for extraordinary gruesomeness. I am no expert on the subject but I would consider these art rather than promotion of violence. I know it's a fine, fine line.

Movies that attempt to change cultural acceptance of weapons and violence (like I think Dirty Harry fits perfectly into) is on a whole different plain. I wouldn't be surprised if gun manufacturers had a piece of that movie, or movies of that kind. The 44 magnum was like a rock star after that horrible movie with that horrible little man. This one had a big message and the message was Guns Solve Problems in the real world.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
49. Kill Bill was arty violence that was pointless.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:21 PM
Jan 2013

The fact that the movements were more like ballet, and the blood spatters were arty did not cover up the fact that it was really a pointless movie. Revenge was not a good enough motive.

If you remember A Clockwork Orange, the violence was stylized and choreographed like a ballet. I think the violence was a gratuitous reason to show female breasts, when they ripped an orange dress off of a female victim.

I saw Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction and remember very little. They were gory and stupid. My daughter made me watch them.

They don't show realistic violence. People with heads and limbs blown apart and turned into mush. People in movies get hit with a bullet, a squib of fake blood explodes and they fall over.

I used to work at the court house in Houston and saw some pictures of real people, victims of horrible, brutal murderers. Now that was quite traumatic and horrifying to me. I had nightmares over those pictures.
I cannot imagine having to see a murder scene in person and deal with it in a calm professional manner.

Some people see violence and torture in movies and like it. I can't handle it and i refuse to let those violent, disturbing images and actions into my head. I thought The Dark Knight was incredibly pointless and violent. no human interactions, no emotions, and the women are disposable and killed off quickly.

I saw the Dark Knight because the shithole theater I went to--we went to see the second X-files movie and nobody showed up on time, so they canceled it and shoved us into The Dark Knight. Then after it was over we talked to some kids that saw it and thought it was great. They couldn't understand why we thought it was a waste of time, talent and film.




AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
81. I think it was true that after JAWS..
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 10:04 PM
Jan 2013

Spielberg had regrets, because shortly after the movie came out, people went on a killing spree against sharks. Not just great whites.. all sharks.

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
46. The sad ghing is you are right. We havelearned, through media that violence first is good
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:01 PM
Jan 2013

killing over words is the right thing to do. disrespect can't be allowed.
If someone calls you a name punch them in the face, if they punch back, shoot or stab them.
Violence solves the problem!

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
51. and to add to that, take mega sports for another example.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 04:35 PM
Jan 2013

It's hugely militaristic. Win at any cost - if you cheat a bit that's okay, as long as you survive and come out the winner. Dig up that caveman from the centre of your brain and celebrate the basest of human nature.

So we have a culture of messaging violence in many ways. Movies and big sports. Plus newscasts are always chasing the blood instead of giving us the information that is important to us. Confrontation is in. We are No. 1! gogogo. beat beat beat. It's constant and hopefully, finally things will be seen for what they are. We are trained like monkeys to be 'bad'. Even our vernacular condones that: Badass is a compliment, apparently.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
54. gun lust
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:01 PM
Jan 2013

i'm not sure that dirty harry was really the first, but it was certainly a defining moment.

john wayne had a way of dealing with guns that was more like, son, i don't wanna have ta kill ya, but i'm a gonna have ta if ya don't gimme a choice. like he was pleading with the guy so that he didn't have to use the gun. and he seemed sad when he had to do it.

dirty harry, by contrast, was make my day, well do ya punk -- he WANTED the excuse to kill.

to me that was the big change, ushering the myth of the glorious, righteous kill.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
55. yeh, well said. 'the myth of the glorious, righteous kill.'
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 05:14 PM
Jan 2013

very battlefield like.

which reminds me: The History Channel and some others I don't watch any more (but folks in my house do once in a while and am forced to overhear a bit), all these old men from the wars talking about how they miss those grand old days (basically that is the message) about how many they killed, how many buddies died in front of them - yet they have this nostalgia for those good old days.

I find that so hard to understand, and slightly revolting. That glorious and righteous kill mindset was probably necessary on the battlefield but the battlefield has expanded now. It's all over.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
61. i think life must be a big letdown for some people after war.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:11 PM
Jan 2013

in war, you ride an adrenaline high you'll never replicate, you feel incredibly important and essential, your life and everything you do has great meaning.

you go from that to punching a clock every day and i'm sure some wonder if there's any real meaning to it all, it must seem dull in comparison.

i think that's the nostalgia. not that times were good, but that the war and the military gave their life a meaning and important purpose that they no longer have.


frankly i think that's what a lot of the gun lust /glorious righteous kill sentiment is all about. people in their daily grind, wanting their life to truly mean something, and hoping for that opportunity to be the man in the white hat, to be more than just a busboy or an accountant or a widget salesman, but to be a hero or a martyr.

to me, it's a fantasy you only have if you're fundamentally dissatisfied with your life.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
76. what I see on those shows are very much unlike what my uncles thought of war
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:00 PM
Jan 2013

they were so traumatized they wouldn't even talk about it, let alone pine for getting back. I hear that from a lot of people.

So my suspicious mind is thinking these 'good old days' old guys on the tv shows just might not be telling the whole truth or they are picked and chosen just because war was the apex of their lives. You know, the military can't have a bunch of sad stories about war, got to make it romantic.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
83. Dirty Harry--the "hero"--operated outside the law.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 11:55 PM
Jan 2013
Government was the problem. Very Reagan-esque.

nxylas

(6,440 posts)
95. Dirty Harry is something of a Rorschach test
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 08:58 AM
Feb 2013

It had a very right-wing writer, John Milius, and a liberal director, Don Siegel. As a result, its politics are somewhat ambiguous, and people tend to see what they want to see in the film.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
96. Maybe.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:13 AM
Feb 2013

But I think of it as the beginning of a trend. Seems to me that pop culture action heroes since then were violent and had to circumvent whatever form of authority there was to accomplish their purposes/save the day/whatever. They were fighting both the bad guys and social/governmental institutions.

Hammered home the Rugged Individualists' government-is-the-problem-not-the-solution viewpoint....

nxylas

(6,440 posts)
97. You are probably right
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:36 AM
Feb 2013

I have an idea for a film in which Lt Callahan is now Commissioner Callahan, and having to deal with a hotshot young maverick who's just like he used to be. Sort of a cop movie equivalent of the Mother's Curse ("may you have a child who's just like you&quot . Can't see Clint going for it though. He'd probably yell at a chair that he was pretending I was sitting in.

NBachers

(16,999 posts)
84. It's funny, I watched some old vintage westerns - The Cisco Kid - just the other night
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:14 AM
Jan 2013

In the gunfights, it's like the bad guys getting shot just immediately fall asleep. I can remember imitating that move when my pals and I used to play "Good Guy / Bad Guy."

I still get a chill when Pancho yells, "Good Bye, Amigos - See You Soon!" as Cisco and Pancho go riding off to the thrilling music.



Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
67. Maybe you should actually watch a Dirty Harry movie sometime
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:26 PM
Jan 2013

Let's see...he tracked down and killed a racist psychopath (partner was hispanic), shut down vigilante gun nut corrupt cops (partner was black), partnered with a feminist cop to hunt down terrorists (white ones, at that), and avenged a rape victim by killing a...wait for it...white dude.

The antagonists in each movie were white.

Anything else I can help you with?
 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
77. dirty harry was a sexist piece of shit
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:03 PM
Jan 2013

but then so were all the 'heros' in those days.

don't, please don't ask me to rewatch any of that hairy chest beating macho shit.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
78. Wait...hang on...a renegade cop in the 70's was protrayed as SEXIST?
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:04 PM
Jan 2013


The DEVIL you say!

Good grief, get over yourself.

JohnnyRingo

(18,581 posts)
33. Car explosions too....
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 12:55 PM
Jan 2013

If you believe movies, you'd think if someone shoots at your Mercedes it will explode in a huge fireball. The fact is, Hollywood never passes up an opportunity to set torch to a great quantity of gasoline. No wonder those terrorists a few years ago thought they could blow up LAX by lighting a trail of gasoline.

I saw a movie once where two guys were on an old motorcycle being chased to a cliff. The bike ran out of gas just before it got to the edge, and the guys bailed as the bike plunged over the cliff. It still somehow managed to explode as it hit the bottom of the gorge.

Hollywood will get on board with anything violent, and when it comes to weaponry they break laws of physics and violate rules common sense.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
35. It's not guns or explosions
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 01:25 PM
Jan 2013

It's situations.

There are only a few films I will never watch again due to the troubling aspect of the violence.

Looking For Mr. Goodbar is one. It's the ending.

Natural Born Killers. A little too real and psychotic.

But movies like The Expendables? Like Arnold said, when they yell 'CUT', everyone gets up!

It's the context of violence, not the act. IMO.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
90. So many movies are about stalking and killing women.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:47 AM
Jan 2013

Mr Goodbar reminded me of that fact.

Extremely depressing plot if you're a woman.

Wait Until Dark with Audrey Hepburn.

If I keep thinking of other movies like this, I'll get even more depressed.



I avoid negative movies, negative religions, negative people, and negative music.

JohnnyRingo

(18,581 posts)
45. They won't let their kids go to a movie with nudity.
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 03:47 PM
Jan 2013

"Go see a wholesome teen movie like "Terminator III".

aint it the truth.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,153 posts)
64. Say hello to my little friend...
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:21 PM
Jan 2013

What I find disturbing is how its been trending that its the one that has the most, or most powerful weapons, that is the goodest(?) guy. (Unlike Scarface).

So many new (male) stars are defined by the body count of bullet ridden bodies he can produce instead of being witty or clever or ingenious to get out of a bind. Used to be that the character used a gun as an accessory that helps when its down to brass tacks like say Gun Smoke. I'm talking about characters whose heroism is MOSTLY defined by the size of his gun. Tarantino is one of the worst for this although he at least does it in a campy tongue-in-cheek way. It is no coincidence this trend started rising under W's reign. The whole attitude from the top down was "shoot first ask questions later" and "might is right".

Another fraudulent aspect is how gun fight results are portrayed. First the good guy never gets shot, and even if he does, say in the shoulder, its just a "flesh wound" and he's back running around lifting heavy weapons in a way that no human could ever do after being shot. And the bad guys are usually one dimensional evil-only characters that seem to deserve to be filled with holes. The story is set up to indoctrinate audiences that he is getting what he deserves. Also, especially on TV, people do not bleed, do not roll around in agony or pump blood all over the place like they would in reality. So the "good guy" retains his status because he's not causing suffering, he's just erasing a bad seed quickly and neatly.

JBoy

(8,021 posts)
68. Need to start boycotting these movies. Start with the new Stallone flick
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:33 PM
Jan 2013
Bullet to the Head

The title alone is offensive

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
73. The fraud is that movies/TV don't accurately depict gunshot wounds and dying of gunshot
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:02 PM
Jan 2013

Instead, they present a highly romanticized and sanitized version of gun violence where the victims don't bleed and politely fall to the floor.

Little blood and not a lot of writhing around in agony before succumbing.

TV is especially bad in this regard.

AmyDeLune

(1,846 posts)
86. Too true!
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:38 AM
Jan 2013

Years ago I remember reading about how a group of "concerned citizens" in Britain complained loudly to the BBC when on a cop show an officer was shot fatally and didn't simply drop dead on the spot-- the director and actor decided to portray an accurate, slow and horrifying death that in no way glorified the shooting or being shot. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the show though.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
91. See my reply #49 above.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:52 AM
Jan 2013

I worked at the courthouse and saw horrible murder scene photos of dead people and it was traumatic. Some fairly well known cases. Now you can see gory stills and movies all over the internet.

People don't just squirt a bit of blood out of their chests and fall over and die quietly, like they do in the movies.

DrDan

(20,411 posts)
80. bingo . . . to "kill" or to "threaten" to kill
Wed Jan 30, 2013, 08:43 PM
Jan 2013

nothing else . . . that is it!

that is their one and true purpose.

kudzu22

(1,273 posts)
85. My first reaction is -- just guns?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:18 AM
Jan 2013

90% of everything Hollywood portrays is fraudulent. Car chases, fistfights, romance, the internet, space travel, etc.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
89. As opposed to it's depiction of other things?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:18 AM
Jan 2013

Whether it's High school students who look 25 years old (or even over 30... I'm talking about you Stockard Channing), the terrible sports team that all the sudden becomes good after a single pep talk or a player finds "true love", the politician who does what's right regardless of their re-election chances, the guy who breaks into a high security location and then guesses a password on the first try, the bad guy who comes up with an elaborate slow death and then leaves the room so the hero can escape, hell, the guy who counts a 6 deck shuffle in blackjack and wins a tremendous amount of money in a very short time. Yes, he's right, but Hollywood's depiction of many things is fraudulent.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
93. Oh Dustin, you silly man
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:15 AM
Jan 2013

What, exactly, do you think Hollywood is doing with other societal issues such as female image, consumerism, family dynamics and such? I absolutely support an individual's rights to produce the movies they want.
This argument is hypocritical at best, and just silly otherwise. This does little to help us deal with gun control and does much more in promoting censorship and the thought police.

 
94. He's not telling people what movies they can or can't make.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:52 PM
Jan 2013

Just stating his opinions on what does get made. He's not the silly one.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Hollywood's depiction of ...