Were you, John McCain, a good pilot or a bad pilot? Yes or No?

[Stinky The Clown]

Do not bring any extenuating circumstances into your answer, Senator. You were flying a plane over North Vietnam and it crashed.

Were you a good pilot or a bad pilot, Senator?










McCain is a Major League Asshole.


Edit to add context: This is *exactly* how he just asked Hagel about his position on the surge. He was badgering the shit out of Hagel (McCain's former presidential campaign national co-chair, I might add). When Hagel tried to explain, McCain cut him off and said "Just answer the question, Senator. Yes or no, were you right in your opposition to the surge. Yes or No?"

To reiterate: McCain is a fucking asshole.

[CBGLuthier]

1. Worse than that

I think he was responsible for the Forrestal fire that killed 134 sailors. I believe his admiral daddy covered it up.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=119707

[backwoodsbob]

2. ok I don't like repukes but

I've never heard that.Please back that with links.

I won't disrespect a war vet because he is a repuke

[CBGLuthier]

8. OK, I edited and added a link

I am not the originator of this story. But something stinks about what happened and I do think he did it. It sounds just like something he would do and having a daddy who is an admiral is the ultimate get out of the brig free card.

[backwoodsbob]

12. a link to rumormillnews?really?

[CBGLuthier]

16. WTF is a McCain lover doing here?

The man is a fucking worm. Just because he fought a war does not make him anything special.

[backwoodsbob]

21. I HATE his politics BUT

the man served honorably in his service.Spreading rumors is now the norm?

[Rex]

52. Oh so now assumption is okay as long as you are doing it.

[elleng]

58. With you, bob.

[kooljerk666]

73. Made for Vacation, hahahahahahahhaahahahaha oh.... HA HAH!

I'd rather be in a hospital, getting a camera up my ass, after 3 days of fasting, than anywhere near SC.

[nick of time]

24. So now anyone who disagrees with you about McCain is a McCain lover?

Pretty weak.

[jeff47]

34. Would you prefer wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

The rocket that started the fire was launched from John McCain's aircraft. The official story is there was an electrical fault that caused the rocket to launch.

Oddly, this electrical fault never occurred in any other aircraft.

[nick of time]

35. The rocket that started the whole mess was not fired from McCains aircraft.

It was fired from an F4 Phantom, McCain was in an A4 Skyhawk. You need to read the Wiki article a little bit better.

[truebluegreen]

83. My "link" is to a cousin who was in a VA hospital in Vermont.

He heard the story from vets (two) who were on the Forrestal and blamed McCain for the fire and the deaths of fellow sailors (this all came up back in '08). The story is that McCain "wet-started" his plane, causing it to belch (fart?) flames out the back. The flames "cooked off" a missile on the F-4 behind him and that started the fire.

Obviously this is all hearsay, and nothing's ever been proven --maybe "admitted" would be a better term--but here are two relevant facts: McCain's father was commander of the Pacific Fleet, and McCain himself--uninjured--was the first person off the Forrestal after the fire. Didn't even stick around for the funerals: he left for some "much needed R&R" in Saigon.

True or not, some people on that ship believed it.

ETA addition detail

[denbot]

68. bwb The Forrestal fire is something every recruit iearns about in bootcamp.

There is a film with actual deck footage of the event. In the film the narrator mentions the possibility of the missile "miss firing" do to a "cook off". Mc Dumbass just prior to the AA missile launching was hot dogging on the deck blasting his afterburners in front of the plane that carried the fateful missile. Mc Dumbass was airlifted off the Forrestal before all the bodies were even recovered as a transfer, the only person on that vast ship to be transferred at that time.

There is no other reason then getting rid of a pilot suddenly during a historic disaster then to protect the little son of an admiral from vengeful shipmates.
denbot
Ex US Navy

[truebluegreen]

84. Exactly. nt

[nick of time]

9. I assume you have proof of your claim?

I mean other than rumormillnews.com?

[pscot]

30. This is from Truthdigg

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081007_investigating_john_mccains_tragedy_at_sea/

In considering the 1967 catastrophe, it is important to note that the official report concluded that no individual bore responsibility for the fire or its spread. There are a number of conflicting accounts of the Forrestal accident, but here is the story as based on the strongest sources. The fire started at 10:51 a.m. Saturday, July 29, 1967, as 30-year-old Lt. Cmdr. John McCain sat on the port side of the Forrestal in his A-4 Skyhawk going through preflight checks. To his right was Lt. Cmdr. Fred White, also in an A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft. A Zuni rocket on another airplane accidentally fired and flew across the flight deck, passing through White’s auxiliary fuel tank and falling into the ocean. Fuel spilled onto the deck from White’s craft and ignited. McCain told his biographer, Robert Timberg, and repeats in his own book, “Faith of My Fathers,” that the rocket hit his own plane and knocked two bombs from it into the burning fuel as he scrambled out of his cockpit and raced to safety across the deck.1

There was, in fact, a single bomb—not two—that dropped to the deck. It exploded 90 seconds after the fire broke out, intensifying the blaze until it raged out of control. White and Thomas Ott, McCain’s parachute rigger, were among the first to be killed instantly or mortally injured, along with most of the firefighting crew. McCain’s plane captain, Robert Zwerlein, was one of those who suffered fatal wounds at this point.

A camera on the deck recorded images showing that the Zuni rocket struck White’s plane. The Navy report later attributed the dropped bomb to White’s plane, although the film footage does not seem to establish this definitively. However, McCain has said many times that the Zuni rocket caused the bomb (two bombs in McCain’s version) to fall from his own craft.

Some of those who were on the Forrestal and other persons familiar with the ordnance told me that because the rocket did not hit McCain’s craft, only actions by the pilot could have caused any bomb to fall from McCain’s Skyhawk. These sources—who spoke under the condition that they not be publicly identified—agree with each other that, if any bomb fell from the McCain airplane, it was because of actions that he took either in error or panic upon seeing the fire on the deck or in his hasty exit from the plane. Two switches in the cockpit of a Skyhawk need to be thrown to drop such a bomb, according to the sources.



Whatever the circumstances of the fire’s origins, McCain did not stay on deck to help fight the blaze as the men around him did. With the firefighting crew virtually wiped out, men untrained in fighting fires had to pick up the fire hoses, rescue the wounded or frantically throw bombs and even planes over the ship’s side to prevent further tragedy. McCain left them behind and went down to the hangar-bay level, where he briefly helped crew members heave some bombs overboard. After that, he went to the pilot’s ready room and watched the fire on a television monitor hooked to a camera trained on the deck.

McCain has never been asked to explain why he claims that the Zuni rocket struck his plane. If a bomb or bombs subsequently fell from McCain’s plane as he has said, it seems to strongly suggests pilot error, and if a bomb or bombs did not fall from his plane, it suggests rash disregard for important facts in his accounts of the accident.

There is plenty more about this story that raises questions about McCain’s truthfulness and judgment. In the first hours after the fire, he apparently did not claim to have been injured. New York Times reporter R.W. Apple, who helicoptered out to the ship the day after the tragedy and sought out McCain as the “son and grandson of two noted admirals,” never mentioned him being wounded, although he reported on him more than on any other crew member. This would be an odd omission on Apple’s part if McCain indeed had been wounded, given that service wounds are usually highlighted in such reports during wartime. McCain’s own father, after seeing his son several weeks later, sent a letter to relatives and friends about the fire saying, “Happily for all of us, he [John] came through without a scratch

[The Wizard]

45. A friend was in that fire

And by a stroke of luck he wasn't killed. The guy he changed shifts with burned to death. Some years later he contacted his shipmate McCain for help with a VA issue. McCain never even acknowledged the contact.
McCain is still pissed off that Hagel supported Obama in 2008.
John McCain is no hero. Dropping bombs from 30,000 feet on innocent people is not heroic. He left the Navy as a failed pilot. After learning that he wouldn't be considered for the Admiralty like his father and grandfather he retired from the Navy.
The only reason he was a candidate in 08 was because the Republicans needed a sacrificial lamb after the Bush nightmare.

[actslikeacarrot]

15. there is alot of reasons to hate mccain...

...what happened on that ship isn't one of them.

[hack89]

17. This is false

At about 1050 (local time) on 29 July, while preparations for the second strike of the day were being made, an unguided 5.0 in (127.0 mm) Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on an F-4B Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power. The surge originated from the fact that high winds had blown free the safety pin, which would have prevented the fail surge, as well as a decision to plug in the "pigtail" system early to increase the number of takeoffs from the carrier (see below).

The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4E Skyhawk awaiting launch,[1] aircraft No. 405, piloted by LCDR Fred D. White.[2][6] The Zuni Rocket's warhead safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of escaping JP-5 fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. Within seconds, other external fuel tanks on White's aircraft overheated and ruptured, releasing more jet fuel to feed the flames, which began spreading along the flight deck.

The impact of the Zuni had also dislodged two of the 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs (World War II-vintage AN-M65s[4][5]), which lay in the pool of burning fuel between White and McCain's aircraft. The fire team's chief, Gerald Farrier (without benefit of protective clothing) immediately smothered the bombs with a PKP fire extinguisher in an effort to knock down the fuel fire long enough to allow the pilots to escape. The pilots, still strapped into their aircraft, were immediately aware that a disaster was unfolding, but only some were able to escape in time. LCDR John McCain, pilot of A-4 Skyhawk side No. 416 next to White's was among the first to notice the flames and escaped by scrambling down the nose of his A-4 and jumping off the refueling probe shortly before the explosions began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

[Brother Buzz]

25. I think McCain was just being McCain that day

They only fault I see, and a testimony to his character during that event on the Forrestal, was that he was the first pilot to slither out of his airplane, only to promptly leave the scene.

[nick of time]

26. What would you do if you saw a disaster unfolding right before your eyes?

He did exactly the correct thing, get out of the plane, which was clearly in danger, and get out of the danger zone. How is that faulty?

[Brother Buzz]

29. I don't know, pitch in and help instead of going off to pack his AWOL bag?

McCain was the only uninjured member of the entire crew to be airlifted off the Forrestal.

[nick of time]

31. Help do what?

Fight the fire? He wasn't trained to do that. Airlifting pilots off of diabled Carriers is pretty standard procedure, they go to either a land base or another Carrier to resume flight ops.

[Brother Buzz]

41. Standard procedure to airlift only Admiral's sons?

To Hell with his brothers, McCain was McCain and left the mess at the first opportunity; he cut and ran. I suspect he didn't even look back.

[nick of time]

43. Possible.

But there's not proof of that. I don't know why he was airlifted and neither do you.
It could be what you say, it could be because of what I put forth.

[denbot]

71. During a fire when the first response team is decimated all hands fight the fire.

Even admiral's sons.

[nick of time]

72. Apparently not this Admiral's son.

I don't know a whole lot about the Navy, I was in the Army. My younger brother was in the Navy.

[Bake]

61. Hey! Landing on an aircraft carrier is HARD!!

Of course, they TRAIN them to do that, so yeah, I'd say he was a shitty pilot.

But honestly, I don't criticize McCain's service. Shit happens in war. I respect his service and what he went through as a POW.

What I DO criticize is his right-wing bullshit in the Senate.

Bake

[cloudbase]

3. One of my flight instructors

was a retired naval aviator. He'd served on the elder McCain's staff and knew the senator quite well.

Here's the quote from him: As an aviator, he was a fuck up.

[backwoodsbob]

7. a quote from someone only you know

isn't enough.

Who was your instructor ?

[cloudbase]

18. I'm not the only one who knows him. If it's not enough for you, so be it.

He rose to command a carrier, and retired when it became obvious he wouldn't make flag rank. Went to law school and became a rather successful aviation lawyer in Texas.

[backwoodsbob]

23. name him

[HangOnKids]

44. Why are you demanding someone name names?

Lots of people in the Naval community knew Sidney McCain, and the common consensus was he was a spoiled fucking twit. My late father was his CO, and no I will not tell you his name, but it is a widely held TRUTH that Sidney was a fuckup and a total asswipe. But keep defending Sid, because over pampered, bottom of the class at Annapolis, adulterers and cowards just need some love too bob.

[Stuckinthebush]

46. Heard the same from a navy pilot friend

Not going to name his name either, but he said it was common knowledge.

[HangOnKids]

49. Thank You!

Sid is a lot like W, and people who worked really hard to get where they are resent the spoiled shits who get there on Daddies pull. Ole Sid was a sniveling loser, and he still is today.

[LukeFL]

79. Agree

He is a loser grumpy old man. Who thinks. Is entitled to shit.

[Voice for Peace]

36. he appears to be a disingenuous, bitter and angry man who has a humongous ego and imagines

himself as someone important. He knows how to appear
honorable, he has a way of acting and speaking which
is supposed to be dignified, but if you scratch the surface
or rub him the wrong way -- heroism is not consistent with
his choices, his meanness, his vengeful passive-aggressive
posturing and sputtering. He is a little man, not a hero,
in my opinion. And all of his nobility in uniform has come
into question from many respectable sources, I'm sorry
I have no links but during the 08 campaign, much came
out. And then there is his choice of Sarah Palin. It gave
him a little boost for a while. Mavericky indeed.

Perhaps he's a wonderful noble heroic person, at least
in his dreams, or way way down deep. but there's
little in his present incarnation that would say so.

Many people have served this country but not all
of them honorably. There is the great god Egomania,
ruler of many who lust for power. People will
lie cheat and steal for that, sell their souls for a
lie.

[truebluegreen]

85. Well said. nt

[TwilightGardener]

4. LOL.

[Angry Dragon]

5. Old Johnie is just bad

[nick of time]

6. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over Hanoi

when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a SAM. Pretty good extenuating circumstances it seems.
He seemed to be an average pilot.
But he's also a major league asshole.

[CBGLuthier]

13. That was the fourth plane he lost

One crash his fault. One crash engine failure. One lost to the Forrestal and one shot down.

He was a shit pilot.

[nick of time]

19. There were a lot of pilots back then that lost planes.

He was an average pilot. One crash was his fault, the other three were circumstances beyond his control, how does that make him a shit pilot?

[CBGLuthier]

20. Gee golly Good pilots don't crash perfectly fine airplanes.

To me that makes him a shit pilot.

[nick of time]

22. Whatever dude.

You believe what you want, myself, as far as I'm concerned, I won't fault the man for doing his duty and paying the price for it.
Now I will fault him for being such a repuke asshole.

[HangOnKids]

47. Poor Sidney! The fuckstick was in over his head and made everyone pay for it

I met him once as a kid, and I came away from the meeting thinking what a CREEP. I meet a ton of great pilots, or as my dad called them "sticks". Sid was just an asshole, a smarmy opportunist. My late father hated the bastard and that was good enough for me.

[nick of time]

48. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

And while I MAY disagree with you, I do respect your right to your opinion.

[HangOnKids]

53. Thanks Nick

Sidney is, was, and always will be an asshole. Off topic go Niners! It is going to be a hell of a game.

[nick of time]

55. I've no doubt that he is, was, and will always be a class A asshole.

Just look at how he treated his fellow Senator, Hagel today.
Niners all the way. Going to be one hell of a game.

[aka-chmeee]

75. Only Four?

I always heard he qualified as an enemy Ace.

[Brother Buzz]

78. Only four confimed kills

There was a fifth incident: While hot-dogging, the Ace damaged a plane, but was able to limp home.

[AndyA]

10. From someone who knew McCain and was also a pilot in Vietnam:

"Some of us were smart enough to not get caught."

[hack89]

11. He did not crash - he was shot down

over one of the most strongly defended areas in North Vietnam.

[leveymg]

14. I think the more apt question is whether he was a good or bad POW?

He did cooperate in making radio broadcasts for the N. Vietnamese, just like Jane Fonda. He was also transferred by his captors to a proper hospital for treatment of his injuries received when he bailed out of his A-4 Skyraider attack jet, it was claimed he received special treatment on account of his Admiral father and because of Ensign McCain's cooperation.


POW McCain being interviewed by a Cuban news correspondent at a gov't office in Hanoi.

As for whether he was responsible for the accidental missile launch onboard the carrier, that seems unlikely if the video that recorded the incident is legitimate. The video shows the missile launched on the flight deck from an F-4 Phantom.

[4Q2u2]

60. You are now

You are now repeating the Hit pieces G.W.Shrub used on him in 2000. Good or Bad POW? Unless you were a POW I find it very hard for someone to know what he went through. Do you not think that they new he was an Admirals son and what a feather in their cap his being broken would be?

As despicable his actions after the war have been, that kind of questioning is pretty unfair and pretty out of bounds, that he could not with stand his beatings as good as others. If he was a shitty pilot, he paid for it by being a POW.


http://www.bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?forum=8&topic_id=522&az=show_topic

[leveymg]

64. I already took those factors into consideration in giving him the benefit of the doubt.

The fact is, whatever information he shared with the North Vietnamese is ultimately unknown, except to John McCain and his interrogators. He certainly cooperated to an unusually high degree and received better than average treatment. I don't think I'm being unfair.

As for whether he was really turned as a sort of Manchurian Candidate, as some have alleged, I just don't know. McCain certainly has done enormous damage to the United States as politician, particularly his role in pressing the Iraq War.

His skills as a pilot are really irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned.

[4Q2u2]

70. Benefit of Doubt?

Better that average treatment? So he was beaten and brutalized 3 times a week versus 5 times. He was offered for release because they knew who he was and it was turned down. He got medical treatment because they knew who he was, but his fellow prisoners did not think he would live a week due to wounds and the marginal medical attention. I also do not see his fellow captors railing against him, I would think that they would know best. I am also pretty sure if you questioned Mcains Patriotism in the POW camp to Senator Kerry, he would think it very repugnant.

Is your hatred for him that deep that you could not give him some compassion for that time due to his circumstances.
You do not think you are being unfair, by denigrating an American Serviceman's POW tenure. Were is the common decency for a jailed and tortured American, even if you disagree with his politics.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

27. The media will NEVER hold McCain accountable. He'll run to the cameras as soon as he gets the first

chance. He is a mean-spirited, hateful man! He disgusts me with his hatred. And now he is betraying one of his brothers. Why? Not for any noble reason. It is because he hates the President of the United States!!

[lsewpershad]

28. What exactly

makes McCain a war hero?????

[A Simple Game]

54. Only the media as far as I can see. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

32. Just think, in an alternate universe he is beginning his second term as President (nt)

[uncle ray]

62. in a different alternate world

McCain died of a heart attack weeks into his term, and Sara Palin just now got elected to her first full term as President. Freepers are proud to show off their Palin '16 bumper stickers.

[nick of time]

65. Oh man.

Reading your post, I felt like someone just walked over my grave.
That's a nightmare scenario.

[The Wizard]

33. The real trurh about McCain

the POW will come out after his death. The Vietnamese nicknamed him songbird.

[nick of time]

38. Can't hardly wait for that account.

[4Q2u2]

63. Is this how you want to tear him down.

"Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as “Manchurian Candidate.”
“In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with ‘the Manchurian Candidate.’”

Sampley Called McCain a “Coward” and a Traitor.
“Sampley… accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets.”

There are more than enough examples of his poor judgement as a Senator to rebuke him. Acting like G.W. Shurb should not be one of them.

[The Wizard]

81. That would be acting like Rove

McCain's hero status is questionable. Some of us were conscripts, fighting on the ground in grueling conditions. McCain volunteered to drop bombs on innocent people who neither harmed nor threatened the United States. His primary objective was to be a career officer and become an admiral like his father and grandfather, collateral damage and innocent victims be damned.
Most of us were just fighting to stay alive and come home on our feet.
I do not now, nor did I ever consider myself a hero, just someone lucky enough to walk in my front door upon returning from Vietnam.
Ted (war profiteer) Sampley is dead, but what really happened to McCain is unknown.
The truth is McCain is still pissed off at Hagel because Hagel supported Obama in 2008. And McCain is a war monger, ready to start wars and continue them in perpetuity. Anyone with McCain's radical view of permanent war should remain silent on all defense issues.

[4Q2u2]

86. Better Ways

I thank you for your service my brother and I myself are not a big fan of fighter pilots. Always thumping their chests about what great warriors they are, as they fly around in a 40 million dollar suit of armor. McCain has also done a lot of unscrupulous things as a Senator. I just had a real hard time knocking some guys POW tenure. He was jailed beaten, and tortured I am not and we should not be willing to assinate his character with questioning his actions as a POW. He has provided more than enough ammo to question his character as a Senator. I think Good or Bad POW is just something or somewhere we really should not go for anybody. Unless there is clear and undeniable info that they helped the enemy kill Americans. I also know how and what you are talking about in terms of Hero and Hero status. As we both know, the real heros are the ones that gave all and did not come home.

[glinda]

37. McCain is nuts.

[Scuba]

39. Lousy Midshipman, lousy Naval Aviator, lousy Senator, lousy person.

[JEB]

57. Yeah but

He's an Admiral's son and he has 7 houses.

[Genghis_Sean]

40. There's more

McCain lost more than just the plane over Vietnam. I recall reading that he lost three planes total over his career including one in Italy where he was hotdogging, hit some power lines while flying too low, and was forced to eject.

[bahrbearian]

42. Well, they did call him "ACE"

[NCTraveler]

50. Really don't care if he was a good pilot or not.

He served and did what was asked of him. I do see the analogy you were trying to make, I just don't think it is a good one.

The more apt analogy would be "Senator McCain, did you support the invasion of Iraq". That is much closer to apples and apples.

[JEB]

51. Iteresting read

concerning what will not be asked of Hagel.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/31-1

[Rex]

56. Another person unfit for office.

Sadly people keep electing unfit people for office and we end up with this kind of shit. And people wonder why Congress has a horrible approval rating. Yet someone keeps sticking these turds back in office. It is revolting.

[alsame]

59. McCain will never get over the

fact that he lost the presidency to a young, black, relatively inexperienced junior Senator who never served in the military. I'm sure his bitterness extends to his Viet Nam peers Hagel and, to a lesser extent, John Kerry.

Hagel's legacy will include SecDef while Kerry's will include SoS. McCain will be remembered for Sarah Palin.

[Brother Buzz]

67. Word!

[haele]

74. Hagel was enlisted. McCain was an officer and "aviator" -

I've known a couple of pampered flag officer's kids who got through the service academies or into OCS due to the scrambled eggs their fathers wore on their hats rather than their own capabilities. Clueless bottom of their class butterbars who we still had to call "sir" and "ma'am", and who treated the enlisted like scum.

By making the grade for flight school and becoming a pilot, McCain avoided having to have a Chief rip him a new asshole when he pulled his "admiral-daddy" shit and was able to continue with his career, unlike the feckless line officer "leaders" who took the early retirements and non-drill reservist status granted to them simply by the virtue of being commissioned after seven years of fail.

From the comments of saliors who knew him that I was aquainted with (when I was active duty back in the 1970's and 80's), I got the impression that McCain's focus was never about getting the job done, it was about how the job would make him look.
Of all the POWs who suffered through the Hanoi Hilton, he seemed to eagerly use his celebrity as a political launching point - and that drew a lot of talk from those who had spent time incountry, risking becoming POWs or knowing those who had spent time as a POW themselves. Lots of people were willing to give him a pass, but a former Avionics tech I knew who had been on the Oriskany with him said he was an blue-nosed ass even then when we found out he had been elected to the House from Arizona.

Haele

[JEB]

66. And do you need

help finding your way off the stage? Goofy old fellow should retreat to his 7 houses and lay low until he passes.

[santamargarita]

69. 42 years as a professional pilot, this guy should

never been allowed to look at an airplane!

[Rider3]

76. Great post!

[indepat]

77. Surely Senator McCain's paternal grandfather and father, both heroic 4-star admirals, turn over in

graves over his despicable behavior.

[truebluegreen]

80. That question's already been answered.

Last edited Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:56 AM - Edit history (1)

He crashed four planes (or was it 5?), including the one in Vietnam which was the result of his own poor judgment. Navy should have yanked his license and probably didn't just because of his family.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

82. Brilliant. You were an expert VP picker, Yes or No nt