So a few baptists came to the door today . . .

[Prism]

I was getting ready for work when the doorbell rang. I was a little surprised because the entrance to my apartment is in the back of the building, and usually only squirrels and hummingbirds manage to find the place. But, being a sociable sort, I answered the door, and there were two men. Entirely too blonde, too many teeth, powder blue button downs and khakis that imply entirely too much put-togetherness. But, I'm absurdly polite, so I say hallo.

"Hi, we're from the Baptist church over on . . ."

Ok, no. I'm a gay deist. But they persist as my boyfriend observes hidden in the recesses of the apartment. "Have you thought about what happens to you in the ever after?" I certainly have. And being an amateur cosmologist, it has almost nothing to do with the Bible. But, just for shits and giggles (and vaguely because I feel like this will be the path of least resistance), I note "Of course. I'm Catholic (I was raised one. Southern Baptists hate Catholics, so I figured this was an easy out. Not so!).

This generates lots of discussion about interpretations of the Bible.

I do a bit of ideological fencing. Their idea of Catholicism is a bit stereotypical ("No, not all Catholics are super-obedient to the Pope in Rome). We discusss Biblical passages. They ask me all about the after-life. I answer. They discuss. I answer. I answer for at least twenty minutes. Finally, I declare, "So, I need to leave for work soon, but I'll read this and think on it." End of communication.

And you know what? It didn't hurt me. It didn't scar me. I'm a gay male raised Catholic, and I could weather some evangelical missionaries at my front door while my homosexual boyfriend hovered in the backrground. They believed what they do quite earnestly, and it didn't entirely destroy my shit.

I feel like we've lost something in this country. The ability to say "Well, I don't believe as you do, but, whatever." Isn't that the mark of tolerance and plurality? To be able to say "We're different, and that's pretty ok!"

When we can't say that, I feel we're erring. No, I don't share their religion. Yes, they're totally hosed about my equality. I could've gotten real, real nasty. But . . . that's not who I am. We believe. I'll lay my case out as best I can, we'll have a dialogue, and let's see where we go from there.

So, I spent my morning sopping wet, just this side of being late to work, totally gay, and had a conversation with Baptists who were evangelizing.

And I lived to tell the tale.

Imagine that.

[Owlet]

1. I'm ok, you're ok

As you say, that idea seems to have gotten lost somewhere in the past few years. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[SharonAnn]

51. We should learn to "Agree to disagree, agreeably."

[waddirum]

2. I would have gone Matt Damon on them

[Prism]

4. I did to a degree

I mentioned I went to a Jesuit university, and how many Jesuits find god within the natural physical laws, how God is present in cosmology and the Big Bang, and how natural law informs who were are as humans.

I know I overshot, because once I went into cosmology, the main speaker started in on, "Well, in the pamphlet, you'll see verses . . ."

It's kind of like programming. It didn't really, really matter what I said. They had responses typed into their noggins for all occasions.

[Prism]

5. Does it count

If I rolled my eyes as I shut the door and gave my boyfriend a sighing look afterwards?

[Prism]

8. If it helps

I plan on going to their service tomorrow. I promised them I'd check it out, and I'm bizarrely attached to my word, so I will appear at their service. If they do the whole, "Raise your hand if you're new" bit, I will oblige them in all the wrong ways.

[Mira]

33. I'm shocked. That's what they mean by:

"going the extra mile" or "going too far".
Very thoughtful post, though.

[unionworks]

6. you deserve a medal

...for not pepper spraying them

[Union Scribe]

9. "We're different, and that's pretty ok!"

I love that. What a nice sentiment to start the day

[onpatrol98]

10. Pretty cool...

In my opinion, that's how things change. Real people talking to each other. That's how things get done. No one scoring political points by throwing red meat to the faithful. You just talk to people. It all begins with a conversation. DU is so full of..."I put them in their place". In exactly what place do you put another human being.

I don't imagine they were disrespectful and rude in your house. That would have been a major fail, on their part. I think this shows how comfortable you are in your skin. I hope that makes sense.

I know some people who don't believe in God that will say, Thank you...if you say God bless them. It may be out of habit. But, I think they say it simply because they understand the intent was good or the very less, not meant for harm. But, then you have some others, who if you say Merry Christmas, they curse you out. Actually, I only know one person like that. She's the exception, not the rule.

In the end, you want to have a conversation with the first type. And, afterwards you feel like...well, of course, it's perfectly reasonable to not believe and get irritated when you're surrounded by the symbols of someone else's faith. With the 2nd type, you're just left thinking...Wow, what a jerk. End of conversation. End of consideration, unfortunately. Everyone returns to their own corner.

[Prism]

11. They were polite, so I was polite

Perhaps it's how I was raised, but when presented with pleasant people, I'll respond pleasantly in kind. It isn't to say I was acquiescent. I didn't give on my beliefs or my disagreement with their beliefs. I just wasn't going to project anger or hatred towards them.

I know what Baptists think of me. And as soon as they started in on their rote presentation, I did sigh and inwardly roll my eyes But, at the end of the day, instead of muttering an excuse or responding angrily and closing the door, I decided to engage them on their level, discussing the Bible, Catholicism, and just being friendly.

And I think, in their way, they appreciated that. I think they knew I wasn't for converting. They could tell. But I was willing to just plain discuss things with them, and they seemed to latch on to that. I didn't have to give any ground. I didn't have to renounce what I believe. I just had to say, "I hear what you're saying, but I believe X," and they were willing to listen in return.

Not all people will be like this. Some solicitors don't hear at all. But, I was honest and straightforward and open-eared. They said their piece. I heard it. I said mine. And we parted ways without acrimony.

And isn't that how humans should treat each other?

[onpatrol98]

12. Good point...

I think that sums it up nicely. This is how humans are supposed to treat each other. Somewhere along the way, I guess we've forgotten.

[SecularMotion]

14. Maybe it's just me

But I don't see people who knock on my door to inform me that I will burn in hell if I don't share their beliefs to be polite.

If they showed the same respect for you that you showed them, they never would have knocked on your door.

[Prism]

17. They believed it in earnest

Which meant they genuinely worried for me.

Yes, we laugh at that, because it is so misguided. But, even if someone is misguided, I still believe people deserve to be addressed as people, as intelligent beings capable of conversation.

[SecularMotion]

18. I have better things to do than engage misguided door-to-door jesus salesmen.

[Prism]

20. I don't.

And I'll tell you what colors this.

I'm a caregiver for a man with Parkinson's and Asperger's. People dismiss him every day. Literally, every single day, people interpret him socially and go "Ohhhh, you're crazy. No thank you." And it hurts him. It depresses him. His personality and logic dictate a certain kind of social interaction, and he doesn't quite get why people react differently to him.

Not to equate Christianity to mental illness - and I don't - but it's somewhat similar. These people believe this. They have been raised or indoctrinated to think a certain way. I can afford to give them my attention and address them in a way they understand. Just as I try to alter my beliefs to address my patient in a way that makes sense to him.

If I can adjust to someone with Asperger's, to rework my worldview into a construct that someone else gets, why can't I greet a biblical literalist in the same way, to address them on their level, argue according to their logic, and do so in a non-hostile way?

Just saying "Go to hell, shut up," isn't changing a mind, IMO. Engaging might, though.

[SecularMotion]

22. If you're so interested in changing minds with engagement why aren't you knocking on their door?

[LiberalAndProud]

29. What did you mean?

"Just as I try to alter my beliefs to address my patient..." and "rework my worldview into a construct..."

Could you clarify your meaning? I don't think you meant what I understood you to mean, because you have never struck me as a wishy-washy type of person.

[Prism]

42. I meant as far as their Biblical literalism

I've read the Bible, and I understand the New Testament, so I can discuss it intelligently if need be. Not that I believe it myself or think about it much at all in my own life. But when the occasion calls, I can have a conversation about it.

"Alter my beliefs" is a poor articulation. What I kind of mean here is I can rewire my thinking within the moment to think like someone in order to communicate with them more effectively. Does that make sense? I'm not a Biblical literalist, but if one is presented to me, I can converse with them as if I also take the Bible as literally as they do, swapping verses and discussing what Jesus taught.

Just as, with an Asperger's patient I'm familiar with, I get how his mind works, so if I need to understand what's happening, I can insert myself into a situation and try to unpack it according to the logic he commonly uses in order to understand why he's reacting a certain way.

[ThomThom]

36. I agree their total lack of respect for others' views is what

brought them to the door. I find it disrespectful, not to mention a pain when you are getting ready for work and are on a time schedule. Most people don't have 25 minutes to shoot the shit with a stranger in that circumstance. I say sorry not interested, don't come back and close the door.

[justiceischeap]

13. I applaud you for your maturity but, when the mormon's came to my door

a few days after Prop 8 passed, well, I didn't have the maturity you did. I told their church raised money specifically for the purpose of denying me and my kind equality...I sent them on their way, and boy, were they in for a surprise when they got my neighbor. Now, he, was rude. I could hear the yelling through the walls.

But I digress. The problem, for me anyway, isn't the everyday run-of-the-mill christians and I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs--to each her own. What bothers me is people getting bothered if I decide to respond in the negative to proselytizing. I don't have to be rude to respond in the negative, though I gather some would think not smiling and falling to my knees in gratitude when someone sends me a 'God Bless' would be considered negative. But I do have the right to be offended and to respond.

The problem for me, and it's my problem, I know this, is the following: The crazy side of christianity (those whacko right-wing fundies) have ruined the image of christianity in this country; quite possibly in the world. When someone offers me a religious blessing, I automatically equate them with the whacko right-wing fundies--the one's I see stories about SO often here on DU.

They threaten a 16-yr-old girl because she was successful in her lawsuit to take a prayer banner out of school. Any Rick Santorum (or Repub running for office) story. Any religious story that gets news coverage, because 9 times out of 10 it's a sensational story--why else would it be in the news? That in and of itself is a problem. I am now conditioned, like Pavlov's fucking dog, when I hear any religious platitudes to automatically think of creationism in classrooms or pictures of jesus holding a baby dinosaur or the mormon and catholic churches banding together to finance denying equality or any number of negative images that so easily go hand in hand with religion these days. Mostly, I see myself being attacked for being a woman and a lesbian almost on a daily basis by these whacko's. If I don't want to hear a God bless, I think I'm allowed my opinion on that. If I want to snark back (I don't think I would, for the most part I try being polite), I think I'm allowed. If I'm tired of it all, I think I'm allowed. I think it's a reasonable expectation to go to some retail outlet (other than a christian bookstore) and not have to hear anything to do with religion. In my mind, that should be a "safe" place to get away from it all.

[Prism]

16. I totally understand what you're saying

With me, I sort of understand their thinking. "Well, the Bible says . . ." and I understand that. I know what their religion's based on. I can explain, "Well, Paul also said . . ." and carry it on from there.

Simply going "You're wrong, I'm right. I'm good, you're evil. And he're why!" might feel satisfying on a personal level, but I don't feel like a give-and-take has taken place. I do feel the need to engage on their level. I was a little taken by surprise by these two. I live in East Bay S.F. Not exactly a hotbed of evangelism. I wasn't expecting this visit in the slightest. When the doorbell rang, I thought it was maintenance. When I heard "Have you thought of your eternal . . ." My internal response was "What the hell . . ."

But I listened. And I caught they earnestly believed in the Bible. And that's the key. They earnestly believe it. It's not a political slogan. It's not some fopped off belief. They think it's true. And so you have to engage them as if it's true. I engaged them as a Catholic (I'm not one, but it was a good footing in the moment). "Yes, I get your Bible, I believe differently, here is how I do, and why."

It's like going to battle on their own turf. You state your beliefs in terms that will make sense to them. If their foundation is the Bible, you wage your war using the Bible as your ally. They understand that, they get that, they respect that.

Going "Everything you believe is shit and you're brainwashed!" might be emotionally satisfying, but you've not convinced anyone to think. You've not opened minds. You've simply closed them to you pre-emptively.

It's best to take people as they are, as they come to you, and talk to them accordinly, as best you can.

[appleannie1]

30. You are right. The extremes have colored my view. They think they are Christian but are in fact

the total opposite. If they truly followed what is attributed to the words of Christ, they would not be so hateful to people that think differently than they do. But then, the same thing applies to their skewed ideas of what constitutes patriotism too.

But here is how I feel about "putting them in their place". It shows you are the one without class. It would be far more adult to simply just walk away or if you have to say something, at least don't be rude about it.

[LiberalLoner]

15. That shows real class! :)

[txwhitedove]

19. Lovely, and praise for being polite. However, if that happens two or three times a year

then you may not continue to be so polite. Like repeated junk sales calls at dinnertime. My husband thought to toy with some missionaries like that one night at dinnertime while I tried to feed and get 3 little kids to bed. It was a bit funny, but really got the missionaries worked up and I swear they kept coming back to our house to save us. I had to put a sign on the door "Do NOT ring bell! Wife bites salesmen and missionaries!"

[Prism]

24. I was a little surprised

Mainly that they weren't Jevoha's Witnesses' since there's a church nearby. (I have had them approach patients, however, which is always awkward. "No, I'm the caregiver. I'm working now. As in, I'm on the clock and cannot talk to you. As in no. As in, seriously, you're giving this spiel to an employee who is about to shut the door.&quot

I did give my level best. I was literally just out of the shower and dripping water. I desperately wanted to go "Amg, I'm leaving for work in ten minutes, go away." But . . .. eh, I'm too polite. I heard them out when I had every right to not hear them out. I made mistake #1 - I started to talk. I should've been all "yeah, great, thanks for the pamphlet!" But nooooo, it was "Oh yea?! . . .. uh huh . . . . . uh huh .. . . uh huh . . ." And as everyone knows, once you reach the third uh huh, you're dead in the water.

[txwhitedove]

26. And never mention your own religious preference cause that just sparks a conversation. I'm polite

to them all, but it can be annoying - especially the ADT security salespeople who pointedly ask "Do you REALLY have a security system or was that sign just in your yard when you moved in?" WTF?!! Like I'm going to tell a stranger whether I have a REAL security system? We all lead busy lives and it's disruptive when strangers come to the door. Most subdivisions like mine have 'no soliciting' policies, but that doesn't stop them going door to door.

[Honeycombe8]

21. Many reigions believe in trying to "witness" to convert others. When they come to my door....

which is rare these days, I treat them like any other solicitor. I tell them I'm not interested, and that's that.

[Prism]

23. I suck

I just cant say "No, thank you."

And I envy people who can. I want your powers.

[Honeycombe8]

25. It's tough, but I've had a lot of experience. I can say no to Boy Scouts and Girl Scout cookies..

I can even say no to Boy Scouts & Girl Scout cookies. I have no more qualms about that. Used to be, kiddos lived in the neighborhood. But now, it's telemarketing on a large scale. Wagons with kids will drop them off in far enough neighborhoods to sell cookies or whatever for schools I've never heard of. I am not their neighbor. I am just a marketing house representing the possible purchase of some item that won't benefit anyone in my neighborhood. I will usu. ask a kiddo if he lives in the neighborhood first, though. Usually, they don't.

Like that famous ending line in the movie, "The Heiress": Yes, I can be very cruel. I have been taught by masters.

(great Olivia DeHavilland, Monty Clift movie)

[surrealAmerican]

27. It's sad that you felt the need to lie about your beliefs.

I understand why you did. It's good to be civil, and you don't really want to provoke these people. If they keep coming back, what will you do?

[pecwae]

28. Good OP

and fantastic sense of maturity and goodwill on your part. You do know that the way you handled yourself may help open their minds? Not a bad thing at all. Truly, I applaud you.

[obliviously]

31. I need a shower now . NT

[Logical]

32. If you have time to waste, that is great. Maybe fun for you. Saying "not Interested" would have....

been the exact same outcome.

[NNN0LHI]

34. Former Catholic and atheist who goes to a small(50-60 members), Baptist church regularly here

Nicest people you ever want to be around. They don't have a mean bone in their body.

I look forward to going.

I don't have to believe all the dogma to enjoy hanging out with them.

Glad to hear you are going. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

Don

[vaberella]

35. People don't know the definition or understanding of Relativism.

Well I tend to be ridiculously relative until I hear the mention of Ron Paul in a positive way and then I get issues.

[Tikki]

37. I always ask them to 'please leave'...they do..No problems..

I figure they have the politeness to do as I commanded.

Tikki

[Fuzz]

38. Once or twice, of course you are correct. I've been approached and 'witnessed' to way too many

times in my life to sit through another one of these conversations.

[dickthegrouch]

39. I don't see where you told them you are gay

I think it would have been a much different conversation if you had.

[Scuba]

40. Twenty minutes? Really? The only way I would/could give them 20 minutes....

... was if I was fucking with them.




"Sure, I'll take the book. Good for starting fires."

[Kellerfeller]

41. Very nice

It is good to see two groups with very different ideas able to have a calm discussion.

You handled it very nicely. I would have simply said "I'm not interested" but I applaud how you handled it.

Too many people get so irate if they have to hear any words they disagree with or even read a pin/T-shirt/bumper sticker supporting a person or idea they disagree with.

[mainer]

43. The problem is... now they'll be back.

I've always tried to be civil to the Bible thumpers who come to my door. I've politely accepted their pamphlets. They take that as encouragement, and they return to see if you read the pamphlet, what do you think do you have any questions, etc., etc.

After about four re-visits and conversations, I started hiding from them and didn't answer the door.

After they rang the doorbell three weeks in a row, I finally sent my husband out to tell them that I'm an atheist and was only being polite. (I always send my husband out to do the dirty work.)

So you should be prepared for their return.

[tabbycat31]

49. I am usually civil to people at my door

Especially having canvassed countless times for Democrats up and down the ticket every year.

However, I once had a problem with Jerhovah's Witnesses that would not leave me alone. I told them that I was on my way to work (I was) and they followed me out to the car.

Finally I "turned the tables" on them saying that I do have my own set of religious beliefs. I told them that we were sacrificing a goat at 8:00 tonight, and that they were more than welcome to join us. They left me alone after that. (Note-- no animals were harmed in this post and I have never been involved in sacrificing a goat).

[noamnety]

44. The point where they always lose me

is the part where they assume if they ring my doorbell that it won't wake up someone in the house, that the person they might wake up might already be sleep deprived and not be able to get back to sleep, that the person who has to answer the door isn't recovering from surgery and having to deal with extreme pain to answer the door, that the person answering the door isn't a single woman who has to go through the mental exercise of trying to figure out whether it's safe or not to open their door to strangers.

In other words, it's the part where they assume they have the right to intrude into my house on their schedule to push their beliefs on me, instead of allowing me to decide - if I WANT to - to seek them out on my schedule. That's what I'm intolerant of.

[Duer 157099]

54. AMEN!

And on top of that, engaging with them just encourages them to continue the behavior, it gives them positive feedback for some very negative behavior.

If they were polite, they would leave their church tract on the doorstep and never knock or ring the bell, and let The Lord do the work of getting the person to pick it up and read it and go to their church.

But they don't.

[Brickbat]

45. My always say, "I don't talk about my beliefs with people who just show up at my door." And

that's it. Everyone smiles and continues their day. Living out in the woods the way I do, I'm always a little surprised when they make it this far.

[Major Nikon]

46. I tried the tactic of claiming I was Catholic

When I first moved into a new neighborhood, somehow every church in town found out about it and every single one was knocking on my door. I wasn't about to tell them I'm an atheist because I knew that would really bring the worms out of the woodwork, so after the 2nd pastor came knocking, I told him I was Catholic. Worked like a charm. He tipped his hat and turned tail. I did the same thing for the next half dozen or so that came a knockin'. It worked pretty well with most of them leaving soon after hearing that. However, not soon after the priest from the local Catholic church came knocking. He said he was told I was Catholic, but he couldn't find my name on the parish rolls. So I had to explain what had happened. We both got a good chuckle out of it.

[Dash Riprock]

47. I disagree.

People can believe whatever they want and I really don't care, but I don't want to pay for your beliefs and I don't want it shoved down my throat. Soliciting your unwanted religious beliefs and trespassing on my property is shoving your religious beliefs on me. This is no difference than a telemarketer calling my house trying to sell me something. Keep your religion to yourself.

[Major Nikon]

48. The town that I live in has an ordinance against this behavior

Even though I live in one of the reddest counties in Texas, my town has ordinances that not only require the Jesus freaks to register with the city if they want to solicit, but they are prohibited from knocking on your door if you have a no soliciting sign posted. Apparently the word has gotten out because after I posted my sign I have gotten zero religious solicitors knocking on my door.

I still occassionally get a dipshit salesman knocking at the door. I promptly hand them a copy of the relevant city ordinances which I keep by the door and tell them they had best hurry and get out of the neighborhood because I'm calling the cops. It's kind of fun to watch them run.

[Pirate Smile]

50. Let me know if they come back. I had this happen when I was in Law School. A couple of

Baptists knocked on my door. They asked me a few intro questions. I politely say "I'm Catholic....I'm not interested...Have a good day."

I was very nice.

Then they came back a few days later. I was still nice but still not interested.

When they came back the third time .... I wasn't nearly as interested in being nice.

They had made it clear that my being Catholic meant I needed to get converted even though I had clearly said it's not happening. By then I was, frankly, insulted by their disregard for my words and religion.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they show up at your door again.

[RZM]

52. We used to get a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses when I was growing up

One time when I was about 12 I remember the came early in the morning and the whole house refused to answer the door (it was a weekend morning). Finally I got sick of the knocking so I went down in my underwear. I was quite annoyed.

Another thing I noticed was that their newsletters were shockingly incompetent. They seemed barely literate. Even as a grade schooler I could spot the grammar and spelling mistakes.

[NotThisTime]

53. You are much nicer than I, I would have encouraged my boyfriend to engage in the conversation and I

would have hit them from a scientific standpoint... why should you feel the need to oblige them, but that's just my own prejudice against them speaking.