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Patton Oswalt: What gun owners think they look like... (Original Post) onehandle Mar 2013 OP
Ouch Kingofalldems Mar 2013 #1
This should help move the conversation forward. Or not. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #2
I remember that shot from Burn Notice Doctor_J Mar 2013 #3
I think that's 'Justified'. n/t reflection Mar 2013 #5
It Is From "Justified." This Week's Episode, In Fact. Paladin Mar 2013 #6
No kidding! That same little weasely dude was in Burn Notice a few Doctor_J Mar 2013 #128
Great Character Actor, Hope He Finds Work For Years To Come. (nt) Paladin Mar 2013 #133
Shooting all those rounds and hitting nothing... WCGreen Mar 2013 #181
Yeah, But His Heart Was In It.... (nt) Paladin Mar 2013 #183
. Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2013 #4
Stallone looks just a dumb Shankapotomus Mar 2013 #7
He is big backer of Brady Center. And has 4 guns for CCW. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #8
He sounds confused nt Shankapotomus Mar 2013 #12
Actually, he is an elite: "You can't be armed, I can." Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #109
Not to defend his CCW adieu Mar 2013 #15
I support Stallone & Feinstein's success in arming for self-defense... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #110
It would depend, wouldn't it? adieu Mar 2013 #118
For some reason, elite celebrities get the guns under "may issue" schemes. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #135
That's why I support "shall issue" laws. (n/t) spin Mar 2013 #141
Do you have any facts to back up your allegations? adieu Mar 2013 #142
Google up M.L.K. gun permit denial & see what you get. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #144
I was referring to your allegations adieu Mar 2013 #148
You're right! There is absolutely no chance that she will ever be be a victim unless ... spin Mar 2013 #139
Stallone looks like he stole his hair from 'Flashdance'. cliffordu Mar 2013 #9
Nice catch, lol! pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #10
Man, I still love her.... cliffordu Mar 2013 #13
It could be the same wig. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #26
Because appearances are what really matter to anti-RKBA folk. aikoaiko Mar 2013 #11
And Fetishist Fantasy, Sir, Is What Drives 'Team NRA' And Its Ilk.... The Magistrate Mar 2013 #16
That sounds silly. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #22
I Expect It Would To Many, Sir: In My Experience, Fetishists Have No Idea How They Seem To Others The Magistrate Mar 2013 #23
"Gun owners" categorizes all gun owners. Remmah2 Mar 2013 #25
"In My Experience, Fetishists Have No Idea How They Seem To Others" Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #63
You Have No Idea What The Range Of My Experience Might Be, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2013 #64
Nor do you have any idea of my range of experiences, sir... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #68
You Should Write A Book, Sir: As The Kids Say 'Cool Story, Bro....' The Magistrate Mar 2013 #69
Just as I thought, no definition... but no big surprise you'd know what the 'kids' say... n/t Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #70
And We Were So Hoping, Sir, For More Tales Of Your Big Bad Self, But Alas, You Disappoint The Magistrate Mar 2013 #81
All the time in the world to write a boorish screed, but no definition yet, huh? How SHOCKING!! Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #97
Cool story, bro. nt msanthrope Mar 2013 #106
An intelligent, well thought out, poignant reply Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #127
You Are Just Not Making Me Feel It, Sir: It Simply Fails To Convince The Magistrate Mar 2013 #119
You know something? I really don't give a rats ass what you feel, or even what you've got to say... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #123
You Have, Sir, An Opportunity To Prove That Statement... The Magistrate Mar 2013 #124
Such a sad, sad story. And you tell it so well! apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #129
I'd suggest "contracted by" instead of "hob-nob". Marr Mar 2013 #112
Nailed it zappaman Mar 2013 #82
Has Hell frozen over?!?!?!?! Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #98
I fear the Magistrate may never answer your questions. zappaman Mar 2013 #107
I have a very strong feeling that you are correct, my friend.... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2013 #125
Apparently, the anti-team NRA crowd has even weirder fetish fantasies. aikoaiko Mar 2013 #24
And Those Would Be What, Sir? The Magistrate Mar 2013 #28
Tell that to rape victims pintobean Mar 2013 #30
Ah, Yes, Sir: 'The Peace Of Mind A Woman Enjoys With An Ar-15 At Her Hip --- The Magistrate Mar 2013 #33
Not all fetishes are sexual. aikoaiko Mar 2013 #31
Cannot Keep That Gun-Porn Stash To Yourself, Can You, Sir? The Magistrate Mar 2013 #36
You asked me to explain and I did so. aikoaiko Mar 2013 #38
To A Gun-Fetishist, Sir, It is Definitely Porn The Magistrate Mar 2013 #42
For a guy who has no problems with the government killing innocent people with drones The Straight Story Mar 2013 #52
Who Says they Are Innocent, Sir? Combatant Status Has Nothing To Do With Guilt Or Innocence The Magistrate Mar 2013 #53
I guess we will never know because they are not white and we don't care The Straight Story Mar 2013 #55
Hang In There, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2013 #59
Hear, hear, my good Sir Hekate Mar 2013 #90
Thank You, Ma'am The Magistrate Mar 2013 #92
I had been wondering when a pic of one of those cute little thangs would appear and poof! CTyankee Mar 2013 #140
Love the amateur psychoanalysis, sir! Lizzie Poppet Mar 2013 #46
Of Course, You Cannot Quarrel With Substance Of It, Ma'am The Magistrate Mar 2013 #47
Indeed I could, actually. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2013 #71
The More Devoted To the Possession, Ma'am, The Greater The Likelihood It Applies The Magistrate Mar 2013 #80
Bravo! Harry J. Anslinger or Frederic Wertham could not have said it better. friendly_iconoclast Mar 2013 #89
When You Emit These Squeals, Sir, One Knows The Blow Has Struck Home The Magistrate Mar 2013 #91
On the contrary, I find the jeremiads of self-appointed "improvers" amusing. friendly_iconoclast Mar 2013 #93
This Is Even More Incoherent Than Your Usual, Sir.... The Magistrate Mar 2013 #95
Easy diagnosis. Hoyt Mar 2013 #49
That's hard core. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #14
What gun owners actually look like pintobean Mar 2013 #17
are we making fun of fat people? Paul E Ester Mar 2013 #18
The comedian (pictured on the right) who posted this is making fun of himself. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2013 #19
thanks Paul E Ester Mar 2013 #65
I think he's fucking hilarious. But what do I know :-) Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2013 #85
That picture on the right is actually of Patton himself Arkana Mar 2013 #21
Rambo vs Hambo firenewt Mar 2013 #32
Heh, that shot's from "Justified". Arkana Mar 2013 #20
I would have used these photos... Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #27
Is your call sign really, "Glitter-Pants?" n/t Ian David Mar 2013 #34
No, but it was almost just as silly Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #57
Say it fast, and it sounds like, "Isaac's" n/t Ian David Mar 2013 #62
Best not to make fun of HIS callsign--it's a lot better than my first one pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #75
I don't know about you, but I didn't have much of a choice in my callsign Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #121
The first 2 must be the well-regulated militia we hear about.... Historic NY Mar 2013 #37
Trust me, I never missed the chow line either Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #58
That's a nice pic of you pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #39
Geeze, you guys in Vietnam looked just as young and baby faced as us Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #60
You don't need to apologize for sharing your war experience pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #74
{{{*}}} Hekate Mar 2013 #94
Thanks for taking the time to write all of that Victor_c3 Mar 2013 #120
I am so sad and respectful of you. You are caught in a hard place, Victor. CTyankee Mar 2013 #154
We're of different eras, but what you're going through sounds very familiar pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #188
Oh, I am undone... CTyankee Mar 2013 #145
These posts are the only ones of value in this sorry thread IMHO iiibbb Mar 2013 #88
You look like a bunch of skinny high school guys Bake Mar 2013 #149
You look like it was your job to run around with a situation appropriate weapon. onehandle Mar 2013 #40
The first two are commedic nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #77
Gotta send that to my Brother-in-law liberal N proud Mar 2013 #29
that second image is from Justified BainsBane Mar 2013 #35
Actually, I think he was a "wanna be" cop - sort of like George Zimmerman without the racial issues Mike Daniels Mar 2013 #54
Oh right BainsBane Mar 2013 #66
I like The Americans enough to keep watching it Mike Daniels Mar 2013 #78
Hmm...not sure about all gun owners, but gun nuts (WARNING; GRAPHIC DISPLAY OF GUN TROLL) Rex Mar 2013 #41
You should post a warning for the second picture Smilo Mar 2013 #43
Thanks, I will put a disclaimer in the title. Rex Mar 2013 #44
Wow!!! deaniac21 Mar 2013 #61
that bottom ones always reminds me BainsBane Mar 2013 #72
I'm gonna get Skittles Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #96
Oh shit! Rex Mar 2013 #116
Could the positioning of that gun in the second one be more "outspoken"? CTyankee Mar 2013 #182
In my case, wrong on both counts. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2013 #45
What you think I think I look like. What you think I look like. iiibbb Mar 2013 #48
Are you the 8-year old boy on the left planning to take his father's unsecured gun to school? onehandle Mar 2013 #50
No, not 8-yr-old. No, love Obama, great president iiibbb Mar 2013 #51
Now THIS is a good post! Very good! jmg257 Mar 2013 #56
Most people do not own or carry guns. n-t Logical Mar 2013 #83
most gun owners are not firing their gun madly like the OP. iiibbb Mar 2013 #86
It only takes one. baldguy Mar 2013 #104
That's a dumb standard. What position am I in to prevent mass murders? iiibbb Mar 2013 #108
Support reasonable gun control laws, for one thing. baldguy Mar 2013 #111
I support parts of that list. iiibbb Mar 2013 #113
I too support parts of that list. Bake Mar 2013 #150
A well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. baldguy Mar 2013 #156
And that, "sir" is why we don't trust you. Bake Mar 2013 #157
And there you go with the standard RW NRA bullshit propaganda. baldguy Mar 2013 #158
And your gungrabber BS is so predictable. Bake Mar 2013 #159
This ^^^^. beevul Mar 2013 #168
They look more like this! rdharma Mar 2013 #67
I guess in a fight or flight scenario, we know which way that dude's going. bubbayugga Mar 2013 #73
You think that's what all of us look like? Bake Mar 2013 #151
You're taking him seriously rdharma Mar 2013 #152
The gun owners I know look more like these fine folks. oneshooter Mar 2013 #153
CMP or NRA Rules? rdharma Mar 2013 #155
Does it matter? oneshooter Mar 2013 #184
"overweight buffoons" rdharma Mar 2013 #185
AR-15 platform dominates these matches......... rdharma Mar 2013 #186
Patton is a really funny comedian, in my opinion, but ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #76
And your point is...? baldguy Mar 2013 #105
Isn't it all about stigmatization, now? Your point rT, indeed Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #115
I guess my reply was more of an observation than a point. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #117
Really? I thought some of them looked like this, MadHound Mar 2013 #79
none of those are gun nuts , but they do look better than the typical "govt going to take away" JI7 Mar 2013 #87
OP said nothing about gun nuts, just gun owners. MadHound Mar 2013 #99
And as Sir Mandrake advises, it's ALL stigmatization, now. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #114
non gun nuts would not be offended. the people in your pic would not be offended JI7 Mar 2013 #131
Lame response, MadHound Mar 2013 #132
hahha, seriously coomparing criticism of gun owners to racism ? JI7 Mar 2013 #136
That Is Trumps In Left Discourse, Sir: Biggest Victim Wins... The Magistrate Mar 2013 #138
Often the attempt is made to link the patently right-wing, pro-NRA cause of "RKBA" with actual apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #147
Ah, there it is, you're doing it yourself, MadHound Mar 2013 #160
Sorry, fail. Gun owners are not an oppressed minority. baldguy Mar 2013 #146
I'm not stating, nor implying either of those positions that you are trying to assign me. MadHound Mar 2013 #161
Genius reply! 1000+ guardian Mar 2013 #126
"But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #130
Excuse me, but I am going with the OP's own words, MadHound Mar 2013 #134
One reply debunked as dishonest juxtapositon and framing, and so the goalposts are shifted; apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #137
Somehow decrying the specific language of the OP is shifting the goal posts? I beg your pardon, MadHound Mar 2013 #162
"But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #164
You are the one who is missing things, that is apparent. MadHound Mar 2013 #169
"But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #172
LOL! Afraid of a simple question. MadHound Mar 2013 #175
# 172 above. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #176
"I will move on." - Your concession, of sorts, is duly noted. *Trackback* for DU'ers: apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #179
For DU'ers uninterested in wading through the rambling verbiage of #134, here's the condensed apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #143
Obviously you have a problem with verbiage, that is apparent. MadHound Mar 2013 #163
"But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #165
Do you really think the dishonest RW gunners here will be suaded by simple facts? baldguy Mar 2013 #166
You got that right: *facts* are to that crowd what garlic is to a vampire: apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #167
Yet to see facts from you, just hollow rhetoric and childish bombast. MadHound Mar 2013 #171
# 172 above. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #173
So, will you answer the question? MadHound Mar 2013 #170
# 172 above. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #174
He is afraid to answer any direct question. oneshooter Mar 2013 #177
Except, the direct question *was* answered in #172 above, and it's now your pal who is fleeing apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #178
Yep. I think I look just like Sly. geckosfeet Mar 2013 #84
Bwahahahaha idwiyo Mar 2013 #100
I love Patton.. sendero Mar 2013 #101
I don't find posts that Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #102
He's making fun of himself. onehandle Mar 2013 #103
Since we are generalizing in this thread. guardian Mar 2013 #122
I don't look like either of those guys. Deep13 Mar 2013 #180
What do they look like? rdharma Mar 2013 #187
 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
128. No kidding! That same little weasely dude was in Burn Notice a few
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 05:16 PM
Mar 2013

weeks ago. He was in a fire fight in there too.

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
7. Stallone looks just a dumb
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 02:18 PM
Mar 2013

perpetuating that cliched and unrealistic ideal of machismo where a gun in your hands makes you a man.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
109. Actually, he is an elite: "You can't be armed, I can."
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 01:33 PM
Mar 2013

Seems to be a perk when you make it big in Cali, NYC, etc.

 

adieu

(1,009 posts)
15. Not to defend his CCW
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 02:42 PM
Mar 2013

but I think Stallone is more apt to be attacked by the cray-crays than the average schmo with a CCW.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
110. I support Stallone & Feinstein's success in arming for self-defense...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 01:42 PM
Mar 2013

I also support the $9/hr. single mom's right to bear arms when she walks 5 blks home at 1 a.m. after work. (Personally, I think she is in greater danger than Sylvester & Schmo.)

 

adieu

(1,009 posts)
118. It would depend, wouldn't it?
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:44 PM
Mar 2013

If she regularly walks home at 1am and has never had a problem, then there's no indication that she's in greater danger. If she's regularly attacked and accosted by people, then she has a problem and that would clearly justify a CCW, much like Stallone or Feinstein receiving death threats on a daily basis.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
135. For some reason, elite celebrities get the guns under "may issue" schemes.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:08 PM
Mar 2013

That is the essential corruption and unconstitutionality of this Jim Crow subterfuge; even M.L.K. couldn't get a pistol permit, even as his bombed-out home was still smoldering.

It's power & status what gets you a gun.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
144. Google up M.L.K. gun permit denial & see what you get.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:36 PM
Mar 2013

You can do roughly the same for DiFi -- but she got hers.

 

adieu

(1,009 posts)
148. I was referring to your allegations
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:26 PM
Mar 2013

that the rich and powerful got their guns because they're rich and powerful, and not because of exigent needs for a CCW.

spin

(17,493 posts)
139. You're right! There is absolutely no chance that she will ever be be a victim unless ...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:23 PM
Mar 2013

she is "regularly attacked and accosted by people."

Realistically in any large urban areas there are high crime and low crime neighborhoods. Obviously a woman walking home at 1 am in a high crime area is at greater risk than if she were in a low crime area. Still street crime can happen anywhere.

It's not a bad idea for any woman who commonly walks alone at 1 am to consider some self defense measures. Perhaps she might consider getting some quality pepper spray, or taking a self defense course. A legally concealed handgun is an option but handguns are not for everybody. Owning and carrying a handgun involves great responsibility and safety training. Becoming proficient with a handgun takes dedication and range time.

One of the best techniques for avoiding an attack on the street is to practice situational awareness. A simple explanation of this tactic is to say that it means not walking down the street with a cell phone glued to your ear, but to be aware of your surroundings and those in it.



 

Remmah2

(3,291 posts)
25. "Gun owners" categorizes all gun owners.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:25 PM
Mar 2013

Sort of like stereo typing. Oswald should try to be more articulate in his silliness.

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
63. "In My Experience, Fetishists Have No Idea How They Seem To Others"
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:50 PM
Mar 2013

#1.. Define these "Fetishists" that you speak of.

#2.. In *my* experiences, pompous, stuffed-shirt blowhards with delusions of grandeur and delusionary images of self importance and superiority over others have no idea how *they* seem to others, either.

#3.. Perhaps you should read the first sentence of your sig line, and keep reading it until it sinks in and you fully understand the meaning of it.

Ghost

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
68. Nor do you have any idea of my range of experiences, sir...
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 08:30 PM
Mar 2013

But to give you a little insight, it runs from street gangs as a pre-teen until late teens, military experience, back to street gangs and biker gangs and on to rubbing elbows with millionaires and some of the elite, ending with trying to live out my remaining days in peace & solitude in the deep backwoods, 15 miles from town in 3 different directions, about 25 miles in the 4th direction. My nearest "corner store" is about 4 miles away. I've run the gauntlet through them all, and would trust my live to a patched Outlaw quicker than a phony stuffed shirt. I prefer the company of real people over a phony any day of the week, but mostly prefer to be left alone....

Now, how about that definition of a "Fetishist"? Am I one, because I own a hunting rifle that is over 35 years old, or a 1956 Romanian SKS military issue, which are very rare in the US? You can find more of the Russian, Yugoslavian and cheap, mass produced Chinese Norincos than you can shake a stick at, but, as I already stated, then Romanians are very hard to find.

Will that definition be coming soon, or shall I not hold my breath, sir? Afterall, "When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense.... Right??

Ghost

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
81. And We Were So Hoping, Sir, For More Tales Of Your Big Bad Self, But Alas, You Disappoint
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 12:41 AM
Mar 2013

One expects you have heard that before.

As an exercise in creative writing, I would have to say your 'story of my bad-ass life' tale shows some promise, but needs a good deal of work for real verisimilitude. A couple of suggestions for improvement, and a general comment. It would be wise to claim ( admit ) to an arrest or two, even a conviction and some jail time; you describe yourself as moving in circles a man will not get far in, or deep into, without some such to his credit. There is no need to hide or be ashamed of such things; everyone will understand. 'Rubbing elbows' is the sort of thing people think sounds good at first, but which sounds tinnier and tinnier on reflection; it is meant to suggest close association, social intimacy, but it could just as easily be said by a caddy as a bridge partner. You need something that better establishes you in a relation of equality with these millionaires and elites. Hob-nob is a bit much, but is more in the right direction. In general, the weakness is the lack of telling detail. Compressing your account does not let you off the writer's obligation to provide a telling detail or two to bring the thing to life for your reader, make your reader see it through your eyes. It is getting just the right detail, and getting it into just the right place, that is the trick, to making your reader feel your truth. Like anything else, it takes practice, but it sounds like you may have the time.


Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
97. All the time in the world to write a boorish screed, but no definition yet, huh? How SHOCKING!!
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:32 AM
Mar 2013

Why is it that you can't define, and back up, what you write? Is it because you don't know, because you're just parroting words and/or talking points you've read elsewhere??

"But Alas, You Disappoint....One expects you have heard that before." Project much? I have a hunch that *you* hear it on a semi-weekly basis, don't you?

You seem to want to know a lot about me, yet you are unwilling to even define your own word that you used here more than once. I *do* know one thing about you, though. Well, in retrospect, make that *TWO* things...

Since you decided to go off on a personal attack (or more like a meltdown/hissyfit) on me, let me respond in kind:

#1... You, by your own admission to me several years ago, are not a Magistrate, nor anything close to any kind of judge. Not even a lawyer, or anyone of that caliber. My guess would be a Starbucks employee, or some kind of wait staff somewhere, who reads way too many philosophical and self-help books, so I would beg of you to *PLEASE STOP* with the phony, condescending "sirs" and "ma'ams", followed by some philosophical or psycho-babble bullshit.

#2... You're too lazy to do your own research on who you're trying to, vainly, I might add, 'bring down a notch or two'. I have been very open about my past life since I've been a member here, mostly on DU2, but a little bit here on 3 as well. You've got a star by your name... in the time it took you to type out your psycho-babble screed, you could have done advanced searches and found out about me. Since you failed to do so, I am now going to teach you a lesson in honesty and integrity, and possibly humiliate you in the process since you haven't got the honesty nor integrity to define your own words, as I have asked you to at least 3 times and you have avoided doing so... much akin to a gutless coward, or pompous ass

I came of age in Miami, Fla, right at the beginning of the "Cocaine Cowboy" days. I started out slinging 1/2 grams, grams and 8-balls, but quickly moved up the ladder due to family connections in the upper echelons. I started moving major weight, often times driving a Corvette with a briefcase with anywhere between $250,000 to $5 Million in it, to pick up product and bring it back to the warehouse, a T-Shirt screenprinting business, where kilos were packed in between shirts in boxes, then delivered with company box trucks. For my protection, I carried a .45 in a shoulder holster, had an Uzi between the seats, and a "spotter vehicle" that followed several car lenghts behind me, loaded with some heavily armed backup, just in case something went wrong. Luckily for me, nothing ever did go wrong. My "boss" had a very bad reputation, one of those "He'll shoot you just for looking at him the wrong way" reputations, but it was one he earned, not some "urban legend" or "talk on the street".

This man owned 5 delivery trucks, registered to his business, 8 Corvettes (1 for each day of the week, pluse a "spare", in case one was in the shop), registered in different names, and 9 or 10 Harleys, again all registered in different names. I had my pick each day of what I wanted to drive or ride. Along with the cocaine, we also supplied women to a few strip clubs in North Miami Beach and Hallandale/Hollywood area of Broward County. We had 8 townhouses spread across North Miami Beach, all leased in the girls' names, but we had keys to each one. We used them as crash pads & stash pads.... and back then, a coked up dancer was a happy dancer..

Ok now, Mr. Magistrate, I have given you just a small glimpse into my past. There is a *whole lot* more to it, but I'm geetting tired. It's 5:12 AM here, and I need a few hours of sleep. Am I worthy of a definition from you yet??

Either way, answer me this, please? What do you do about a book published as factual, but you KNOW that it's fill of lies, and an innocent man is behind bars for something he didn't do? Please read this, and let me introduce 3 friends of mine: Dickie, Al (Alfred) & Wally (Walter). This story is pure bullshit. They got ripped off for 13 kilos of coke, and they *KNEW* they were going to die. Wally went so far as to pre pay for his funeral, told his parents goodbye, and made out a will, leaving his van and roof coating business to me and another friend. You will also see that through everything, Gil Fernandez maintains his innocence to this day, though owning up to many crimes. I went as far as contacting the author and telling him his book was wrong, even gave him names to mention to Gil, but have not heard back. Quelle surprise!

Here's the book: Danger Road: A True Crime Story of Murder and Redemption
http://www.ergogenics.org/240.html

Ghost


The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
119. You Are Just Not Making Me Feel It, Sir: It Simply Fails To Convince
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:50 PM
Mar 2013

You have some stiff competition, however. I have encountered a number of people it would be fair to describe as mythomanes. A person who follows claims of descent from Hungarian nobility with tales of having risen from the ranks to command a platoon in Viet Nam by the age of eighteen, a person who claims to have been on the women's Olympic weightlifting team but could not compete that year because she blew out a knee going for a record dead-lift, and tells how she and her friends, when a man came into their bar, would castrate him with a length of heavy fishing line --- such people can be quite entertaining, so long, anyway, as they are not asking to be lent money, or presenting themselves as people who can be relied on to come through in something serious. One of the tells is a flooding cascade of increasingly irrelevant detail when even mild skepticism is expressed towards something which seems not quite on kilter in the tale. I have already pointed out the element in your tale, in its earliest compressed version, which does not seem quite right to me, and note that, in this much more detailed version, that point is not addressed, though we are introduced to specific makes of automobile and motorcycle, specific types of guns, bevies of loose women high on cocaine, and sundry other items with a fascinating glitter to them. But it is not the bling that is the thing, it is the telling detail, the detail that makes the reader see it through your eyes, makes the reader feel a presence come up off the page, an immediacy that leaves no room for doubt. Your account, sadly, lacks this. Nothing in it compels belief, nothing in it stands out, nothing in it would be beyond the reach of a person willing to construct a pastiche out of various true crime and competent popular fiction accounts of the milieu you set it in. It is worth noting, too, that the nearest thing to a checkable item you offer is a book by someone else, and you acknowledge that its author, who evidently has looked into the matter, sufficiently for his account of it to be convincing to a publisher, does not seem to think you have anything worth hearing to say on the subject. At such a distance from the matter as I am, I see no particular reason to doubt that author, and to instead believe you.

It also seems worth mention, again in the spirit of helpful advice only, that you rose to engage in evident high dudgeon that a stranger might think your interest in fire-arms could be seen as not completely healthy. The only thing you have been consistently detailed concerning, from first to last, is the specific types of fire-arms you have wielded and owned, their makes and models, even their relative rarity and collector's value. Not the best way to convince someone your interest in guns is not a bit obsessive: a better tack would be something on the lines of '...and yeah, I got a couple of guns out here, so what?'

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
123. You know something? I really don't give a rats ass what you feel, or even what you've got to say...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 04:20 PM
Mar 2013

from here on out. Your thoughts and feelings are about as insignificant as a pile of rabbit turds somewhere on my property.

You have shown yourself for what you truly are.. someone who can't back up his words, or even define a word that he uses. Instead, you try to change the subject, offer up screeds of psycho-babble and still avoid answering a question. It still reads like a stuffed shirted pompous ass.

Furthermore, the fact that I *CAN* describe something I own, in great detail, shows that I know what I'm talking about, I know *what* I've got, I know its value and I know its history. I'll describe it any fucking way I want to, and damned sure don't need your approval to do so.

I'm open and honest about my past, which is more than I can say for some here. Am I proud of some of the things I've done? No, can't say that I am, but it's made me part of who and I am today. Am I proud of the changes I made in my life since I got away from that lifestyle? You bet your ass I am. Am I proud of the fact that I raised two kids alone, as a single father, for 17 years? You bet your life on that! It taught me more about myself, and showed me I could do things I would have never thought possible.

Finally, the thought of you merely hand-waving off the execution style murders of 3 of my friends, and an innocent man (though guilty of other crimes) sitting in prison for something he didn't do, says more about and your character (or lack of) than I could ever express in words. I don't care if you believe it or not, because I *KNOW* what the truth is... I was there, and you weren't. I can't, and won't pretend to be able to, tell you how to spend your free time, but I wouldn't bother replying again if I was because your words will still be just as insignificant as that pile of rabbit turds somewhere out in the woods on my 15 acres...


The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
124. You Have, Sir, An Opportunity To Prove That Statement...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 04:23 PM
Mar 2013

Let us see if you can live up to a good intention declared.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
112. I'd suggest "contracted by" instead of "hob-nob".
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 01:55 PM
Mar 2013

It evokes international mercenary/bodyguard/ninja assassin status, without explicitly claiming it.

On the other hand, it's also the way a disease would describe its travels. So perhaps "hob-nob" is better after all.

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
98. Has Hell frozen over?!?!?!?!
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:41 AM
Mar 2013

Zappaman, I know we have rarely, if ever, seen eye to eye on things, but we've always (in my opinion) had fun while we were at it.

BTW, if you stay in touch with SDuderstadt, or know how to contact him... please tell him hello from me, and this place just ain't the same without him. Gawd we had some damned good go-arounds back in the day. As much as I argued with him, I really liked him and miss messing with him.

Peace,

Ghost

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
107. I fear the Magistrate may never answer your questions.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 12:48 PM
Mar 2013

I was hoping that when he was done yelling at those kids to stay off his lawn, he would back up his statements, but no...he decided the best course was to ignore your questions and engage in personal insults.
How sad.
I think he is implying that anyone who owns a gun is a "fetishist", which means I must be one since I own 2 guns, but I guess we will never know.

I may not agree with you on many things, but I know you to be honest and rarely, if ever, resort to the kind of personal attacks that were thrown your way by a poster who has a way-too-high opinion of their own sad self.

I have no idea what the SDude is up to these days. I certainly miss him and SPOOKED911 in the forums since they always kept things lively.

Take care of yourself, Ghost!



Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
125. I have a very strong feeling that you are correct, my friend....
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 04:25 PM
Mar 2013

.... and thanks for the kind words, too... who knows, one day we may even agree on more than you would believe..

In the meantime, Peace to you and yours

Ghost

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
24. Apparently, the anti-team NRA crowd has even weirder fetish fantasies.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:21 PM
Mar 2013

And once again. I ask you to not refer to me as Sir.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
28. And Those Would Be What, Sir?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:29 PM
Mar 2013

It is very clear that for many, possession of a gun is a symbol, a means of seeing themselves in a certain light, of feeling themselves endowed with power they could not otherwise possess, without the talisman, the magic object of potency.

It is just as clear that for many, this symbolic character takes on a sexual coloring, cementing the fascination and rendering more urgent the need for possession of the thing the person feels.

These are very basic and ancient human modes of feeling and behavior, and reach deep into human sexuality. Pretending they are absent in this matter, which is at bottom one of life and death, of ultimate power, is nonesense of the most pollyanna-ish sort.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
33. Ah, Yes, Sir: 'The Peace Of Mind A Woman Enjoys With An Ar-15 At Her Hip ---
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:53 PM
Mar 2013

As she stands off three, four, five, six, violent intruders, with her children screaming at her feet, knowing she has a scary-looking gun!'

The fantasies of fetishists are a poor basis for law and public policy relating to implements of deadly force. There is nothing wrong with having a fetish, nothing wrong with having an active fantasy life; there is something wrong with being unable to tell the difference between private obsession and public affairs, and being unable to maintain the boundaries between fantasy and reality.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
31. Not all fetishes are sexual.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:48 PM
Mar 2013

But all fetishistic objects are imbued with special powers.

There are anti-RKBA persons who support the Assault Weapons Ban who think a different grip will magically make an AR15 designed rifle somehow less lethal.

[IMG][/IMG] (edited for specific pic)

This AR, from what I can tell, would be legal under the proposed AWB (maybe the hand guard would have to be different, too), but the essential difference between the rifle above and the one used in the Newtown shooting (itself compliant with the CT AWB and former national AWB) is the grip. There is nothing magical about that grip that makes the rifle less lethal in the hands of a malicious shooter. But its like a fetish to anti-RKBA folks who claim to be interested in reducing gun violence.




The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
36. Cannot Keep That Gun-Porn Stash To Yourself, Can You, Sir?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:00 PM
Mar 2013

That is exactly the sort of thing people complain of. If your obsession was, say, lacey ladies handkerchiefs, you would probably be a little more hesitant about hauling out your stash of photographs or the objects themselves to display to strangers, knowing you risked some ridicule over how obvious your non-standard obsessions were. But this would war with the desire to be public with it,with the difficulty many have in really comprehending that what is so important to them is faintly ridiculous, even a little repellent, to many many others. But when it is guns, out it comes, at the slightest hint of an opportunity for display....

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
38. You asked me to explain and I did so.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:16 PM
Mar 2013

That you call a picture of a rifle "gun porn" says more about you than me. It is not porn, any more than the OP.





The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
42. To A Gun-Fetishist, Sir, It is Definitely Porn
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:24 PM
Mar 2013

Just as a picture of a fully dressed man wearing a leather jacket and cap is porn to a person possessed of a fetish for leather garments, indifferent as many other people might be to it.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
52. For a guy who has no problems with the government killing innocent people with drones
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:09 PM
Mar 2013

You sure have an odd take on guns.

Perhaps because you believe less in people and freedom and more in those with a magic talisman called 'a piece of paper that says I work for the government so trust me'

People get all worked up when there is a school shooting by a lone gunman, but when we collectively kill kids in other countries we just shrug and say move on.

Seems the people who yell the loudest about their fellow citizen having a gun (because we are taught to fear one another) also support the loudest our government having and using all the weapons they want without so much as asking for any evidence when they kill someone because 'well, it's war and all'.

And as noted before: I don't own a gun, but I respect the rights of others to do so because I have not yet been suckered into believe hundreds of millions of other people in this country are my enemy and the only way I will be safe if is some of those people are the only ones allowed to have guns because they have magic paperwork from some government fetishist.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
53. Who Says they Are Innocent, Sir? Combatant Status Has Nothing To Do With Guilt Or Innocence
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:22 PM
Mar 2013

I have made my view on the matter of what a government in a state of war may do, within the bounds of the laws of war. There is no point to repeating that here. Anyone who knows anything about war knows that non-combatants will be killed in course of it. That is unavoidable, particularly in the case of partisan or guerrilla war, where the people of an area are treated by combatants on one side as a species of cover.

How this should affect the quality of my understanding that in many instances, a person's attraction to firearms, and dedication to possession of firearms, has irrational roots, partaking of fetishism, even sexualized fetishism, is not clear to me. Nor is it clear to me how pointing out that fetishist fantasies are a poor basis for law and public policy regarding implements of deadly force is incongruous with awareness of the actual applications of the laws of war to governments at war.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
55. I guess we will never know because they are not white and we don't care
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:40 PM
Mar 2013

If one is in heat of battle and being attacked and you shell an enemy position and innocent people die you can say it was self defense.

Blowing up 2 teen aged boys on donkeys going from point a to b on the ground where you have no troops in harms way is, to me at least, not war. It is killing.

"How this should affect the quality of my understanding that in many instances, a person's attraction to firearms, and dedication to possession of firearms, has irrational roots, "

And this is where you lost me. Is this like saying people who feel they have a right to do something (speech, protest, abortion, etc and so on) and are passionate about protecting it have as their basis for that an irrational basis? Or does it only apply to things you don't personally like and don't think are a right? People tend to have a deep passion over keeping rights safe from the few who want to remove them for their twisted reasons (like religious ones, etc).

Now, you were so kind as to mention "Nor is it clear to how pointing out that fetishist fantasies are a poor basis for law and public policy regarding implements of deadly force is incongruous with awareness of the actual applications of the laws of war to governments at war." I will tell you why it is congruous to me:

Like in the wars and enemy combatant stuff you have tossed out we have laws right now that say we can keep and bear arms, which ones, and where we can carry them and conceal them.

That is the law whether it pleases you or not. And when people try to change laws that affected the many but allow the few to retain those rights (the rich will have armed guards, companies will have them, govt) and people get a little ticked off at that idea maybe it is not because they equate guns with sex but because they value the ability to continue having rights they have had for centuries and enjoyed.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
59. Hang In There, Sir
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:08 PM
Mar 2013

Your harping on this is beginning to remind me of a favorite old comedy routine, from'Beyond the Fringe': regular meetings of an End of the World Society, ended every meeting with a shout "Cheer up, lads! We must get a winner one day!"

In regards to fire-arms possession in the United States, my object is to alter the regulations, and it is clear to me that in order to do this, some change in what people by and large see as acceptable, normal, decent behavior will need to be wrought, as it was in regards to drinking behind the wheel and smoking and making passes at your female employees and yelling insults at homosexuals, and a variety of things I can remember being considered normal and usual and more or less acceptable behavior, yet which are now pretty widely frowned on. One means to achieve this is to point out clearly the irrationality of those most dedicated to owning fire-arms, and lay bare such dedication's roots in fetishist attachment to objects of power and potency. In this endeavor, one is certainly helped by the manifest irrationality and repugnance of many who set themselves up as spokes-persons for ''Team NRA' and its ilk. These people are often obviously unbalanced, obviously operating under disturbed and disturbing compulsions and obsessions. It is, in my view, the best line to press, and the complaints it evokes from persons who express themselves as dedicated to ownership of firearms suggests to me it is indeed an effective line to press, which should be pressed on a wide scale.

Fetishists fantasies are a poor basis for law and public policy regard implements of lethal force.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
92. Thank You, Ma'am
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:41 AM
Mar 2013

They used to say something was sort of a Chinese equivalent of the Vicar of Bray's song: "A Confucian when in office; a Taoist when out of office." They have always struck me as two sides of a coin.

CTyankee

(63,769 posts)
140. I had been wondering when a pic of one of those cute little thangs would appear and poof!
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:26 PM
Mar 2013

There it was! I laughed aloud, I confess...

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
47. Of Course, You Cannot Quarrel With Substance Of It, Ma'am
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:38 PM
Mar 2013

It is very clear that for many, possession of a gun is a symbol, a means of seeing themselves in a certain light, of feeling themselves endowed with power they could not otherwise possess, without the talisman, the magic object of potency.

It is just as clear that for many, this symbolic character takes on a sexual coloring, cementing the fascination and rendering more urgent the need for possession of the thing the person feels.

These are very basic and ancient human modes of feeling and behavior, and reach deep into human sexuality. Pretending they are absent in this matter, which is at bottom one of life and death, of ultimate power, is nonesense of the most pollyanna-ish sort.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
71. Indeed I could, actually.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 09:33 PM
Mar 2013

I don't dispute that such fetishes exist, or even that they aren't at least somewhat commonplace. Moreover, there may well be comparatively minor hints and aspects of that sort of symbolic association and (largely subliminal) sexualization present in the complex interweave of the mindsets of a genuinely significant percentage of gun owners.

My objection is, instead, to what seemed to be an implication that this sort of thing is generally predominant among the tens of missions of gun owners. I suspect you would have a very difficult time demonstrating such an assertion with any sort of rigor.

If that was not in fact your implication, then I'd happily re-assess my opinion of your assertion.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
80. The More Devoted To the Possession, Ma'am, The Greater The Likelihood It Applies
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 11:54 PM
Mar 2013

Last edited Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:02 AM - Edit history (1)

The sort of person who proclaims any regulation is the start of confiscation, the sort who will proclaim a need to keep a gun handy at all times 'for safety', the sort who will lovingly detail the minutia of the various types owned and claims anyone who cannot speak in such a manner about the various makes and models is not qualified to comment on the subject, the sort who amasses large numbers of fire-arms, the sort who projects various post-apocalyptic scenarios in which everyone will need a gun for protection from 'roving gangs' and can manage it with a straight face: persons displaying these pug-marks may be taken to be almost certainly persons who have a fetishist fixation on firearms.

It is one of the facts of the situation that it is exactly such people who are the public face of campaign against regulation of guns, exactly such people who make up 'Team NRA' and its ilk, exactly such people who produce the bulk of the vitriolic argument against gun regulation on message boards and forums. It is a necessary step to discredit and stigmatize such persons, to see to their being regarded as we have come to regard a fellow who gets into a car after a couple of beers, or who wants to light up in a restaurant, or any other of a variety of things which people now by and large look down on as behaviors society strongly disapproves of, however they may once have been regarded.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
89. Bravo! Harry J. Anslinger or Frederic Wertham could not have said it better.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:22 AM
Mar 2013

Personally, I would find an unwarranted assumption of moral superiority small recompense for
the knowledge of ones political ineffectuality- but that's just me...

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
93. On the contrary, I find the jeremiads of self-appointed "improvers" amusing.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 04:08 AM
Mar 2013

Yours (of course), and also those of one Julaine Appling for another recent example:

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/wisconsin-gaze/julaine-appling-blasts-uwfox-drag-show-as-display-of-immorality.html

Julaine Appling blasts UWFox drag show as 'display of immorality'


Different bugbear, same mindset...

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
95. This Is Even More Incoherent Than Your Usual, Sir....
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 05:42 AM
Mar 2013

"It has been postulated that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters would produce a manuscript of Hamlet. The internet is a test of this postulate."

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
21. That picture on the right is actually of Patton himself
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:09 PM
Mar 2013

and he constantly makes fun of his own appearance.

"I look like an anthropomorphic pod of noodles that's escaped from a lab somewhere."

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
20. Heh, that shot's from "Justified".
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:08 PM
Mar 2013

Patton must be so excited. He got to be on Burn Notice AND Justified.

The small amount of material he devotes to politics is usually pretty damn funny, too.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
27. I would have used these photos...
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:28 PM
Mar 2013

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]


Oh wait a second. The last one is a picture of me. 1st Lieutenant Glitter-pants, Infantry Platoon Leader extraordinaire while I was conducting a sweep through a farm field in Iraq in 2004. I was 24, but I sure had a baby face (and I still do 9 years later).

I'm getting off on a tangent here, but looking at pictures of the young guys in Iraq and Afghanistan really makes me think about the Kurt Vonnegut book Slaughterhouse 5 (or The Children's Crusade).

Damn, I love Kurt Vonnegut. It is a shame that I never had a chance to meet and talk to him in real life. If I could meet anyone in history, he would be on the top of my list.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
57. No, but it was almost just as silly
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:03 PM
Mar 2013

I was "Ice 6" and my platoon went by the nickname of "Ice platoon".

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
75. Best not to make fun of HIS callsign--it's a lot better than my first one
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:39 PM
Mar 2013

My first callsign in VN was 'Itchy Click One-Six." I saw the guy I inherited it from at a reunion less than 2 years ago, and he said he's STILL embarrassed by it.

Fortunately, I didn't have that callsign for long. I ended up with the one that is now my DU username.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
121. I don't know about you, but I didn't have much of a choice in my callsign
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:45 PM
Mar 2013

The NCOs in my platoon were too proud of the name "Ice" to ever let me change it. Like a gang, they were notorious for tagging everything with spray paint. Everywhere we'd go in our battalion's sector, I'd find something randomly spray painted "ICE" on it.

We had 1st platoon, ICE platoon, and 3rd platoon in our company.

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
37. The first 2 must be the well-regulated militia we hear about....
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:10 PM
Mar 2013

the ones that never missed the chow line.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
58. Trust me, I never missed the chow line either
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:05 PM
Mar 2013

I gained a lot of weight when I was in Iraq. Well, I was also doing a decent amount of steroids and lifting a lot of weights as well, but I did get a little portly (but nothing like the guys in the first two pictures). All I did was eat, lift weights, and go on patrol for a year.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
39. That's a nice pic of you
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:20 PM
Mar 2013

Last edited Fri Mar 8, 2013, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, I didn't look like Rambo, either, when I was a baby-faced 1LT combat Infantry platoon leader in VN (2/501 Infantry, 101st Airborne Div.).

There was a great cartoon when the oiginal Rambo movie came out. The first panel showed a bunch of people, including Rambo, sitting at a table and was captioned, "Will the real Vietnam veteran please stand up?"

In the second panel, the only one standing was the one woman at the table.

Here's my "Rambo" pic from VN. That's me on the left in late 1969...

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
60. Geeze, you guys in Vietnam looked just as young and baby faced as us
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:12 PM
Mar 2013

movies do a great job making everyone fighting wars look like they are grownups. The truth is, we are just kids.

I know I need to quit dwelling on my war experiences so much, but I'd be 10x the platoon leader I was if I could do it all over again.

Thanks for your post and sharing your picture.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
74. You don't need to apologize for sharing your war experience
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:20 PM
Mar 2013

It's great that you are able to open up about it--and it's an important part of the process of coming to terms with it. Your posts about your experience are always thoughtful and insightful, and informative for non-veterans as well as for us veterans of other eras.

I suppressed my war experience for 16 years before I was able to talk about or even think about it. My war was also a little younger. The average age of troops when they arrived in-country was 19. I was 20, and had already made First Lt. The photo was taken a few weeks before I turned 21. I had replaced Dan, the guy in the center, as 1st plt. ldr. when he became XO. Russ, the guy on the right, also was a plt. ldr. Russ was KIA the day before I was wounded. Russ was 25, and he's now on Panel 14W, Line 108. Dan made it, and he sent me that photo 2 years ago when he found me. I linked up with him at a company reunion shortly afterward, for the first time since VN. We recognized each other instantly.

Guys like Dan me have had a lot more time to process this stuff. And we were forced to accept, long ago, that there are no do-overs. It is what it is, and each of us has to find a way to accept that and to use that horrible, traumatic experience to inform our perspective in positive ways.

...those of us who did make it have an obligation to build again. To teach to others what we know, and to try with what's left of our lives to find a goodness and a meaning to this life.

--Epilogue, Platoon


I can understand how, in a way, there's nothing you want more than to be back with your platoon. That life had an incredible immediacy, and sense of urgency, and you were with people you cared about and who were important to you, struggling together to survive through that life-and-death experience.

Even after I was medevac'd back to a stateside hospital, all I wanted was to go back to my platoon. Despite having a solid gold excuse for leaving, I felt like I'd abandoned and betrayed my men. What the psychs call "undeserved guilt." I knew what they were going through, and felt like I should be there, going through it with them. And maybe I could keep some of them alive...

But when it's over it's over, there is no going back and there are no do-overs. It's left to each of us to struggle with our war experience and to come to terms with it and to move on. But, as Chris said in Platoon, "The war is over for me now, but it will always be there, the rest of my days." (Just look at my avatar and my username. )

You're a good man, and you deserve the best--whether you know it or not. For me, it's always a pleasure to see you sharing your thoughts here, and it gives me hope that you and your comrades like you will survive your struggles and have an important voice on the issues of our time.



Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
120. Thanks for taking the time to write all of that
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:22 PM
Mar 2013

At least for me, I know that writing about my experiences and attempting to analyze what they are all about is a huge emotional drain on me and I really appreciate the time and attention that it must have taken you.

I'm still working on trying to talk about my own war experiences and a forum like this really does help a lot. I can remain semi-anonymous and throw a lot of the stuff that I'm scared of telling my family out there. The worst thing I think I can do is remain silent and let the pain and struggles I continue to feel go unmentioned. I think it is very valuable for people who have been fortunate enough to never have experienced war to see how much it continues to bother some of us for the rest of our lives.

My grandfather was a WWII Infantryman and I think, had he been frank about his war experiences, I probably would have never desired to have my own.

Your closing thoughts really hit me kind of hard, but talking to guys like you who have made it lot longer than I have give me hope that I can stick with it.

I know I mentioned Kurt Vonnegut and Slaughterhouse Five a couple of post ago already, but much like the main character Billy Pilgrim, I feel like I just bumble around between one major life event and another. In the book, Billy Pilgrim was just a scared bumbling boy in WWII. That is exactly how I see myself when I look back at myself in Iraq. I had no clue what I was doing. And, like how the rest of his life is depicted, I feel detached and like I'm bumbling through the rest of everything else too.

Actually, my wife and I got into a huge fight last night. She says that I don't care about anyone and I can't communicate. I go through the motions in life, but that is about it. Sadly, I think she is right.

Again, thank you for your time and your thoughts. You are one of the guys on this forum that I really look up to and respect.

CTyankee

(63,769 posts)
154. I am so sad and respectful of you. You are caught in a hard place, Victor.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 08:43 PM
Mar 2013

You did what you could do in a difficult situation...but you are young enough to get some help and get through. It must be a tough go, though...if it is any comfort, most of us feel the same way when we confront our young '20s. You, of course, have a significant difference. That is a very hard challenge to face and I wish you all the luck in the world...My heart is with you, Victor....

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
188. We're of different eras, but what you're going through sounds very familiar
Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:18 PM
Mar 2013

Many of us have been there before, and we've got your back all the way.

You are not alone. Even though you were an officer and a platoon leader, you're subject to the same reactions as an ordinary grunt. Take it from a platoon leader from a long time ago who's been there, done that.

Yeah, we were officers--the ones whose responsibilty was to solve problems. We didn't need help, right? We had the arty, the gunships, the fast-movers at our beck and call. We RAN things, they didn't run us.

But the psychological reactions don't recognize rank or position. We are just as subject to war trauma reactions as any rifleman in our respective platoons. And we're not in charge any more--we have to learn to reach out for help when we need it. THAT'S being in charge now.

I know all too well how frustrating it can be when you think you're doing all the right things, yet you feel like you're just spinning your wheels. In my own experience, I know that at those times I realy WASN'T doing what I needed to do. I THOUGHT I was, even though at the same time I was secretly subverting my progress.

You're a good man. You're going to struggle, but I'm confident that you're going to make it. It won't be easy, but hey--What can they do to you? Send you back to Iraq?

Again, you're not alone. Your battle buddies and even those of us who came before you have your back. No pressure, but we're counting on you.

CTyankee

(63,769 posts)
145. Oh, I am undone...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:39 PM
Mar 2013

beautifully expressed...how can I thank you for sharing that extraordinary memoir in the midst of some of the most awful garbage from our 101st Chairborne here...no wonder you go to art for its healing...a loving portrait of those who suffered and died with the exquisite positioning of a gravesite. Yours is a post that is full of love and grace and also a sense of the reality that you carry always with you...I salute and honor you...

Bake

(21,977 posts)
149. You look like a bunch of skinny high school guys
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:31 PM
Mar 2013

Who ought to be chasing cheerleaders, not wading through rice paddies with rifles.

Glad you made it home safely! I hope your two compadres did, as well.



Bake

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
40. You look like it was your job to run around with a situation appropriate weapon.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:21 PM
Mar 2013

Which it was.

Thanks!

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
77. The first two are commedic
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:46 PM
Mar 2013

But the Patriot movement cannot be discounted.

As to Vonnegut, I s'pose slaughterhouse five is very clear to combat vets...

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
35. that second image is from Justified
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:56 PM
Mar 2013

A pretty funny scene where that deputy sheriff starts shooting at some good old boys who insulted him.

Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
54. Actually, I think he was a "wanna be" cop - sort of like George Zimmerman without the racial issues
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:32 PM
Mar 2013

Constable was his title and the character made some comment to Raylan in the first episode that he had to buy all his own supplies and outfit his car at his own expense.

He didn't seem to generate any respect from the locals as I think he was basically just a neighborhood watch "officer"

That said, it was a funny scene...at least he finally made use of his "go bag".

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
66. Oh right
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 07:17 PM
Mar 2013

I'd forgotten that. I thought they just considered themselves too important to pay attention to a Hollar deputy.

Do you watch the Americans? That's pretty good.

Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
78. I like The Americans enough to keep watching it
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 11:20 PM
Mar 2013

Although if the show is aiming to create some anti-hero style empathy for the deep cover couple they blew it with the second episode - poisoning a kid and threatening his mother puts them pretty much in Walter White (Breaking Bad) territory.

By comparison, even Boyd Crowder has certain lines he won't cross.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
41. Hmm...not sure about all gun owners, but gun nuts (WARNING; GRAPHIC DISPLAY OF GUN TROLL)
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:23 PM
Mar 2013

ya I will buy that.

What a gun nut thinks he looks like;


What they actually look like;

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
96. I'm gonna get Skittles
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:04 AM
Mar 2013

to kick your ass for that 2nd one!


Good god! And the man thinks he looks good.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
116. Oh shit!
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:35 PM
Mar 2013

Please don't, Skittle is tough, I will apologize for hurting anyone' vision with that last picture.

CTyankee

(63,769 posts)
182. Could the positioning of that gun in the second one be more "outspoken"?
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 09:45 AM
Mar 2013

He's really asking for the comments about his manly parts size...

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
50. Are you the 8-year old boy on the left planning to take his father's unsecured gun to school?
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:59 PM
Mar 2013

Or the paranoid wingnut on the right tired of the tyranny of that black President?

Or the guy towards the top who's tired of his wife's voice?

Or the woman on the bottom, who's depression medication just isn't cutting it?

 

iiibbb

(1,448 posts)
51. No, not 8-yr-old. No, love Obama, great president
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:03 PM
Mar 2013

No, love my wife.

No, not depressed.

I'm the well-educated environmental researcher who has a lot of liberal positions... and I own a few guns... some for defense of my home... who thinks that preachy liberals aren't really helping the gun control issue by alienating people.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
56. Now THIS is a good post! Very good!
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:50 PM
Mar 2013

Nothing personal to all those involved, just a smart response.

 

iiibbb

(1,448 posts)
86. most gun owners are not firing their gun madly like the OP.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:56 AM
Mar 2013

They are people in a crowd, calmly minding their own business.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
104. It only takes one.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 12:00 PM
Mar 2013

And "responsible gun owners" have done nothing to prevent mass murders from happening.

 

iiibbb

(1,448 posts)
108. That's a dumb standard. What position am I in to prevent mass murders?
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 01:14 PM
Mar 2013

I am not law enforcement and don't claim to be. It is a pretty common theme in DU that gun owners should not act like law enforcement. I am happy to oblige.

I'm not in a position to judge or intervene in a situation.

I don't know any mass murderers that I am aware of to alert the police so they can intervene.


However, I do know if my life is in danger, and I do have a right to protect myself.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
111. Support reasonable gun control laws, for one thing.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 01:48 PM
Mar 2013

Support universal background checks.

Support a real assault weapons ban.

Support limits on magazine size.

Support national gun registration.

End the liability restrictions for weapons manufacturers, dealers & owners.

End the funding restrictions & censorship which exists with crime & health statistics reports and studies on the effects of gun ownership.


For another, marginalize the NRA. Force them to the political fringe. Stop spreading their RW lies & propaganda. Let your candidates know that you will not support them or vote for them if they accept money from weapons manufacturers & organizations who oppose gun control.

----

You want to preserve your supposed "right" to own a gun? Deal with the responsibility to promote security that goes with it. Because whatever you've been doing, it's been woefully ineffective AND YOU HAVE FAILED MISERABLY!

If you've opposed any kind of gun control, have shouted down any discussions about restricting guns, have run down gun control advocacy groups or campaigned against candidates who support gun control, then you share in the responsibility for the endless gun massacres America has to suffer through.

 

iiibbb

(1,448 posts)
113. I support parts of that list.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:03 PM
Mar 2013

Other parts are, or would be, abused. Until the potential abuses can be resolved, I won't support them.

The NRA is a horribly run organization... but marginalizing them does not make my rights go away... and marginalizing gun owners as the OP does, and many on DU do, only makes the NRA stronger because people feel their rights threatened by the marginalization.

So actually... you can thank the OP for doing more to erode what common ground may exist than me.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
150. I too support parts of that list.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:38 PM
Mar 2013

But I find it illuminating that you refer to a "supposed 'right'" to own a gun, as if in your mind there is no such right.

And you wonder why we don't trust you. We know exactly what you'd do if you could.

Bake

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
156. A well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 09:27 PM
Mar 2013

What part of WELL REGULATED don't you understand? If gun owners can't or won't bother read the WHOLE of the 2nd Amendment and accept their responsibility for security, there's no good God-damned reason for any sane person to trust THEM.

America's community of gun owners is not well regulated - at the RW's insistence. This directly results periodic massacres & the unnecessary deaths of tens of thousands of innocents each year. Do you care? Of course not. Your only concern is to ensure that you'll still be able to fondle your pathetic pea-shooter.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
157. And that, "sir" is why we don't trust you.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 09:36 PM
Mar 2013

And all I had to do was scratch just the least little bit on the surface ...

Sure, we understand well-regulated. Guns are pretty damn well regulated now. There are a few more regulations that might be both helpful and reasonable, despite your dripping rhetoric. Most of us don't feel the need to "fondle our pathetic peashooters." the only thing you left out is the obligatory reference to "Delicate Flowers" and "the Precious."

If you think a .357 magnum is a peashooter, you've obviously never fired one.

Bake

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
158. And there you go with the standard RW NRA bullshit propaganda.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 10:34 PM
Mar 2013

Thank you for being so predictable.

Guns are not regulated - not when background checks, gun registration and licensing can be easily & legally avoided simply by be driving down the road a bit. The fact is gun owners in general can't be trusted. Trust requires responsibility. You have shown none. Your rabid defense of gun owner irresponsibility is proof that you in particular shouldn't be trusted with a gun. There's no telling where it might end up or who it will kill.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
159. And your gungrabber BS is so predictable.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 10:52 PM
Mar 2013

When I bought my first gun 20 years ago, I had to do a background check. Same for the one I bought last year. Couldn't avoid it. Let's see ... I can't buy any fully automatic weapon. I'm pretty sure I couldn't buy armor-piercing bullets even assuming I wanted to ... but "guns are not regulated," as you say.

What you mean is, they're not banned the way you'd like them to be. The only person here who appears to be rabid is you. You don't know me from Adam, but you've determined that I cannot be trusted with a gun, and even "gun owners in general can't be trusted," which you claim is a "fact." Who's the rabid one? Good God!

C YA.

Bake

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
168. This ^^^^.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:31 AM
Mar 2013

If guns are unregulated, then your interlocutor would have no problem with repealing all those gun laws laws that dont regulate guns.

Somehow, I don't think that would be the case, however.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
151. You think that's what all of us look like?
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:43 PM
Mar 2013

You're sadly mistaken. I'm willing to bet that you meet or interact with folks regularly who are carrying, and you have no idea. They look just like anybody else. Maybe even just like you.

Apparently a lot of people here don't know that Patton Oswalt is a COMEDIAN. You're taking him seriously.

Bake

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
152. You're taking him seriously
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:54 PM
Mar 2013

No. But I think you're taking the tongue in cheek funny photos of "gun nutters" that were posted........too seriously!

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
155. CMP or NRA Rules?
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 09:13 PM
Mar 2013

Looks like both.......

SO ......... what's the point? HP shooters wear shooting jackets and mitts?

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
184. Does it matter?
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:22 PM
Mar 2013

Many posters here make gun owners out as overweight buffoons, including you. My post shows responsible gun gun owners using firearms in competition.

Camp Perry National matches



The AR-15 platform dominates these matches.

No camo, no scopes, no politics. Just responsible gun owners target shooting.
 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
185. "overweight buffoons"
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:52 PM
Mar 2013

Have you been to a gun show lately?

If not, you should. It's an eye opener!

I used to shoot in HP comp on a military team.

No. I'm not worried about these folks. This is where the NRA used to be. Until they went nutz!

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
186. AR-15 platform dominates these matches.........
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 07:34 PM
Mar 2013

Oh, really? Guess "dominate" needs to be defined!

BTW - that's not an AR!

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
76. Patton is a really funny comedian, in my opinion, but
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:45 PM
Mar 2013

this thread makes the pro-gun-control crowd seem really, really shallow.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
117. I guess my reply was more of an observation than a point.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 02:41 PM
Mar 2013

Fallacious rhetoric combined with mocking a demographic for imagined appearance may be convincing for some, but I doubt very many critical thinkers will be persuaded.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
79. Really? I thought some of them looked like this,
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 11:39 PM
Mar 2013
















But silly me, I didn't get the latest memo that now all gun owners look like idiots. Hmm, are you going to say that about those people pictured above as well?

JI7

(89,173 posts)
87. none of those are gun nuts , but they do look better than the typical "govt going to take away"
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:07 AM
Mar 2013

types

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
99. OP said nothing about gun nuts, just gun owners.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 07:09 AM
Mar 2013

Here's the exact title of the OP, "Patton Oswalt: What gun owners think they look like..."

That's one of the reasons this POS thread is so damned offensive, it is stereotyping all gun owners. Not just gun nuts, whatever the hell that means, but gun owners. Including such outstanding people as FDR and Truman.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
132. Lame response,
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 05:59 PM
Mar 2013

The title of the OP specifically says "gun owners", not gun nuts. My OP in this thread pictured a few, among many, many gun owners. To portray gun owners as idiots, as in the OP, is offensive.

There is nothing stating in the OP that this is about gun nuts, just gun owners. Trying to walk it back in the manner that you are doing is lame, and almost as offensive as the OP.

You sound like a racist of old, trying to exclude the black people they don't find offensive from their overall offensive comments. Stop insulting my intelligence, and the intelligence of gun owners in general.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
136. hahha, seriously coomparing criticism of gun owners to racism ?
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:09 PM
Mar 2013

another thing about gun nuts i notice is they always seem to view themselves as victims.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
138. That Is Trumps In Left Discourse, Sir: Biggest Victim Wins...
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:17 PM
Mar 2013
De rigueur to be able to strike the victim's posture if arguing on a left board, especially if arguing a position generally seen as tending towards the right-wing view.

"It's all lies! Lies against my boys!"

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
147. Often the attempt is made to link the patently right-wing, pro-NRA cause of "RKBA" with actual
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:44 PM
Mar 2013

progressive concerns and causes: this is like so much protective coloring on a peacock, meant to deflect and distract attention away from the actual racist, reactionary roots of the "RKBA enthusiast" movement while posting on a progressive discussion board like Democratic Underground.

It is often done clumsily and offensively, but it is a favorite tack of our "pro gun progressives."* I offer the following link, currently a going OP in the Gungeon, as one example among many:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172113546

In the explanatory "comment" part of the OP, the poster states The phrase "transvaginal ultrasound" come to anybody elses mind?

Different bugbear, same mindset..."


It is an explicit, if silly and offensive, attempt to link the right-wing "RKBA" movement with the pro-choice community, and thus attempt to garner allies on this discussion board from genuine progressives by saying, in effect, that the two movements have common concerns and similar ideological affinities and outlooks.

Which is, of course, horseshit - the two movements couldn't be more ideologically, culturally, and politically different and opposed if they tried - but it goes on day after day after day and with dreary regularity both down in the Gungeon and up here in the big forums whenever a firearms-related OP is posted.


*( )

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
160. Ah, there it is, you're doing it yourself,
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:01 AM
Mar 2013

You are transposing "gun owners" with "gun nuts" like they are one and the same, that if you own a gun, you are automatically a gun nut. Is that what you think of the President, and the other people that I pictured in my OP? That is certainly how you are coming across.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
146. Sorry, fail. Gun owners are not an oppressed minority.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:43 PM
Mar 2013

And progressive criticism of radical RW aims to eliminate gun control is not persecution.

Fail. Fail. And more fail.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
161. I'm not stating, nor implying either of those positions that you are trying to assign me.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:05 AM
Mar 2013

I am simply commenting on how some people who have replied to me think I should understand what the OP actually means, how I should know that it isn't the "good gun owners" being criticized, despite the fact that the OP of this thread specifically states ALL gun owners. The similarities between that attitude and the attitude of racist whites when talking about "good blacks" is striking.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
130. "But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say.
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 05:51 PM
Mar 2013

Pic #1:

President Obama Trap/Skeet shooting a shotgun: that comes nowhere close to the gun nuttery that is being ridiculed and spoofed in the OP, and you well know it. No one is talking about taking away hunting/sporting shotguns on the pro-sensible gun legislation side, and you well know that, too.

Thus, dishonest framing and juxtaposition #1.

Pic #2:

Senator (now Secretary of State) Kerry shooting a shotgun during the '04 campaign: see above.

Pic #3:

President Clinton hunting with a shotgun: see above.

Pic #4:

President Carter inspecting a shotgun at a trade show: see above.

Pic #5:

This one is particularly rich: that was the Commander-in-Chief of the United States military inspecting the new assault rifle the Air Force was adopting for military use by their security forces. Yet the picture is juxtaposed with the reply to make it look like JFK was a the proud owner of a brand new assault rifle, and thus an "RKBA enthusiast."

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #5.

Pic #6:

President Truman posing with a shotgun at a farm: see #1-4 above.

Pic #7:

Like the attempt to convert President Kennedy into a "pro-RKBA" fanatic by dishonestly juxtaposing a pic of him inspecting a military assault rifle as part of his duties as Commander-in-Chief, this one is equally rich: here is an Commander-in-Chief during wartime in the field with the troops under his command inspecting the combat rifle of one those soldiers.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #7.

Pic #8:

Eleanor Roosevelt or anyone else legally eligible for the privilege - not 'right,' privilege - of owning a firearm shooting what looks to be a .22 caliber plinking handgun on private property in a rural setting is, again, not what is being ridiculed/spoofed in the OP - and again: You. Well. Know. It.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #8.

Nice try, but none of it washes. Not one single bit of it.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
134. Excuse me, but I am going with the OP's own words,
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:06 PM
Mar 2013

Those words are not "gun nuts" or some variation thereof, but rather the all inclusive "gun owners". What, I'm supposed to magically divine what the OP meant? Words mean things, and if you use them, you need to be precise and not rely on your audience to read your mind. Furthermore, I've yet to see the OP show up on this thread to edit their post, revise their original statement about "gun owners" or any other such move that would indicate that they meant other than exactly what they stated. All I've seen is folks like yourself, trying to tell the rest of us, in most insulting terms, what the OP did or did not mean. You are not the OP, you cannot speak for the OP, therefore any attempt on your part to revise the meaning of the original post is disingenuous at best.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
137. One reply debunked as dishonest juxtapositon and framing, and so the goalposts are shifted;
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:12 PM
Mar 2013

the faux sputtering and gnashing of teeth commences: just as expected. Textbook.

Your non-responsive, goal-post shifting reply is duly noted. Please try again.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
162. Somehow decrying the specific language of the OP is shifting the goal posts? I beg your pardon,
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:08 AM
Mar 2013

But that was the entire purpose of my OP in this thread, to decry the overly general language of the OP itself. The OP is conflating "gun owners" with "gun nuts".

Do you think have the same attitude as the OP, that gun owners are indeed "gun nuts" and worthy of derision?

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
164. "But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:40 AM
Mar 2013
Pic #1:

President Obama Trap/Skeet shooting a shotgun: that comes nowhere close to the gun nuttery that is being ridiculed and spoofed in the OP, and you well know it. No one is talking about taking away hunting/sporting shotguns on the pro-sensible gun legislation side, and you well know that, too.

Thus, dishonest framing and juxtaposition #1.

Pic #2:

Senator (now Secretary of State) Kerry shooting a shotgun during the '04 campaign: see above.

Pic #3:

President Clinton hunting with a shotgun: see above.

Pic #4:

President Carter inspecting a shotgun at a trade show: see above.

Pic #5:

This one is particularly rich: that was the Commander-in-Chief of the United States military inspecting the new assault rifle the Air Force was adopting for military use by their security forces. Yet the picture is juxtaposed with the reply to make it look like JFK was a the proud owner of a brand new assault rifle, and thus an "RKBA enthusiast."

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #5.

Pic #6:

President Truman posing with a shotgun at a farm: see #1-4 above.

Pic #7:

Like the attempt to convert President Kennedy into a "pro-RKBA" fanatic by dishonestly juxtaposing a pic of him inspecting a military assault rifle as part of his duties as Commander-in-Chief, this one is equally rich: here is an Commander-in-Chief during wartime in the field with the troops under his command inspecting the combat rifle of one those soldiers.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #7.

Pic #8:

Eleanor Roosevelt or anyone else legally eligible for the privilege - not 'right,' privilege - of owning a firearm shooting what looks to be a .22 caliber plinking handgun on private property in a rural setting is, again, not what is being ridiculed/spoofed in the OP - and again: You. Well. Know. It.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #8.

Nice try, but none of it washes. Not one single bit of it.


Since you apparently missed the post you are ostensibly replying to the first time around, I've reposted it and bolded it for your assistance. This time, try to stay on track, as opposed to either (a) apparently losing your place and replying with confused non sequiturs or (b) attempting to shift the goalposts and otherwise change the subject.
 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
169. You are the one who is missing things, that is apparent.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:49 AM
Mar 2013

And bolding your foolish answers doesn't help any. But for your benefit, I will go over this once again.

The OP of this thread specifically talks about gun owners. The above examples that I pictured are gun owners. Are they worthy of your derision? You have yet to answer that question.

Furthermore, you have yet to answer my other questions, namely do you think that gun owners are indeed gun nuts, and worthy of your derision.

Why not try answering the questions instead of whining about goal posts that haven't moved, and questions that haven't changed.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
172. "But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:54 AM
Mar 2013
Pic #1:

President Obama Trap/Skeet shooting a shotgun: that comes nowhere close to the gun nuttery that is being ridiculed and spoofed in the OP, and you well know it. No one is talking about taking away hunting/sporting shotguns on the pro-sensible gun legislation side, and you well know that, too.

Thus, dishonest framing and juxtaposition #1.

Pic #2:

Senator (now Secretary of State) Kerry shooting a shotgun during the '04 campaign: see above.

Pic #3:

President Clinton hunting with a shotgun: see above.

Pic #4:

President Carter inspecting a shotgun at a trade show: see above.

Pic #5:

This one is particularly rich: that was the Commander-in-Chief of the United States military inspecting the new assault rifle the Air Force was adopting for military use by their security forces. Yet the picture is juxtaposed with the reply to make it look like JFK was a the proud owner of a brand new assault rifle, and thus an "RKBA enthusiast."

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #5.

Pic #6:

President Truman posing with a shotgun at a farm: see #1-4 above.

Pic #7:

Like the attempt to convert President Kennedy into a "pro-RKBA" fanatic by dishonestly juxtaposing a pic of him inspecting a military assault rifle as part of his duties as Commander-in-Chief, this one is equally rich: here is an Commander-in-Chief during wartime in the field with the troops under his command inspecting the combat rifle of one those soldiers.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #7.

Pic #8:

Eleanor Roosevelt or anyone else legally eligible for the privilege - not 'right,' privilege - of owning a firearm shooting what looks to be a .22 caliber plinking handgun on private property in a rural setting is, again, not what is being ridiculed/spoofed in the OP - and again: You. Well. Know. It.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #8.

Nice try, but none of it washes. Not one single bit of it.


Since you apparently missed the post you are ostensibly replying to the first time around, I've reposted it and bolded it for your assistance. This time, try to stay on track, as opposed to either (a) apparently losing your place and replying with confused non sequiturs or (b) attempting to shift the goalposts and otherwise change the subject.

And we'll just keep doing it, until you decide you wish to address the issue, instead of changing the subject. Since you won't - you don't wish to address the issue at hand now that you've been proven wrong - this looks to be a long sub-thread we're in for.
 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
175. LOL! Afraid of a simple question.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:59 AM
Mar 2013

Afraid to engage in an honest discussion, and apparently lacking answers or wit, you must resort to empty rhetoric and childish bombast. But that in and of itself says a lot about you, none of it good.

So since you're seemingly incapable of answering a simple question, or engaging in an honest discussion, I will move on. After all, my point is made, even though you don't seem to realize it. Good night, oh master of the cut and paste

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
179. "I will move on." - Your concession, of sorts, is duly noted. *Trackback* for DU'ers:
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 02:20 AM
Mar 2013
First Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2480734

Then Debunked Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2483418

Follow-up diversions, goalpost-moving, and other obfuscation and non-responsiveness dealt with Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2484783

Once again, when it comes to our "RKBA enthusiasts," it's all too easy.


apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
143. For DU'ers uninterested in wading through the rambling verbiage of #134, here's the condensed
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 06:30 PM
Mar 2013

version (my translation):

"This getting busted making phony analogies/juxtapositions really sucks, so I thought I'd type for awhile."



 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
163. Obviously you have a problem with verbiage, that is apparent.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:10 AM
Mar 2013

And your translation is faulty, to say the best. Again, do you think that all gun owners are "gun nuts"? Simple question, I'd be interested in hearing your answer.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
165. "But silly me" - Yep, dishonest framing and juxtaposition is often silly, just as you say.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:42 AM
Mar 2013
Pic #1:

President Obama Trap/Skeet shooting a shotgun: that comes nowhere close to the gun nuttery that is being ridiculed and spoofed in the OP, and you well know it. No one is talking about taking away hunting/sporting shotguns on the pro-sensible gun legislation side, and you well know that, too.

Thus, dishonest framing and juxtaposition #1.

Pic #2:

Senator (now Secretary of State) Kerry shooting a shotgun during the '04 campaign: see above.

Pic #3:

President Clinton hunting with a shotgun: see above.

Pic #4:

President Carter inspecting a shotgun at a trade show: see above.

Pic #5:

This one is particularly rich: that was the Commander-in-Chief of the United States military inspecting the new assault rifle the Air Force was adopting for military use by their security forces. Yet the picture is juxtaposed with the reply to make it look like JFK was a the proud owner of a brand new assault rifle, and thus an "RKBA enthusiast."

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #5.

Pic #6:

President Truman posing with a shotgun at a farm: see #1-4 above.

Pic #7:

Like the attempt to convert President Kennedy into a "pro-RKBA" fanatic by dishonestly juxtaposing a pic of him inspecting a military assault rifle as part of his duties as Commander-in-Chief, this one is equally rich: here is an Commander-in-Chief during wartime in the field with the troops under his command inspecting the combat rifle of one those soldiers.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #7.

Pic #8:

Eleanor Roosevelt or anyone else legally eligible for the privilege - not 'right,' privilege - of owning a firearm shooting what looks to be a .22 caliber plinking handgun on private property in a rural setting is, again, not what is being ridiculed/spoofed in the OP - and again: You. Well. Know. It.

Dishonest framing and juxtaposition #8.

Nice try, but none of it washes. Not one single bit of it.


Since you apparently missed the post you are ostensibly replying to the first time around, I've reposted it and bolded it for your assistance. This time, try to stay on track, as opposed to either (a) apparently losing your place and replying with confused non sequiturs or (b) attempting to shift the goalposts and otherwise change the subject.*


*(Take Two)
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
166. Do you really think the dishonest RW gunners here will be suaded by simple facts?
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:54 AM
Mar 2013

They wade into a discussion, spouting shit like a moron in a clown suit pretending to be serious & erudite. But, just like all the other RW loonies who push the NRA's agenda, the big shoes get in the way.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
167. You got that right: *facts* are to that crowd what garlic is to a vampire:
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 12:57 AM
Mar 2013

they scream and shriek and snarl and flee at the slightest approach of them - and try to change the subject. As the poster above I've been going back n' forth with has here.

"They wade into a discussion, spouting shit like a moron in a clown suit pretending to be serious & erudite. But, just like all the other RW loonies who push the NRA's agenda, the big shoes get in the way."

Truer words were never spoken on Democratic Underground.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
171. Yet to see facts from you, just hollow rhetoric and childish bombast.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:53 AM
Mar 2013

Nor have you answered my question, namely do you agree with the OP that gun owners equals gun nuts? Why won't you answer such a simple question?

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
170. So, will you answer the question?
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 01:52 AM
Mar 2013

The question that I've posed to others in this thread. Namely, do you agree with the OP's original premise, that gun owners equals gun nuts? From you language that you're using, I surmise your answer is yes, but I'm willing to give you the chance to deny that.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
177. He is afraid to answer any direct question.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 02:12 AM
Mar 2013

And will only repeat the same drivel repeatedly.

It is his "style" such as it is.

apocalypsehow

(12,751 posts)
178. Except, the direct question *was* answered in #172 above, and it's now your pal who is fleeing
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 02:15 AM
Mar 2013

the interview, desperately trying to change the subject, as he has found his debunked "facts" ( ) an unpalpable basis on which to continue. It's funny stuff.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2484783

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
102. I don't find posts that
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 10:37 AM
Mar 2013

Make fun of the way people look, talk or their weight to be very progressive.

It sure doesn't recruit people nor does it add to the debate.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
180. I don't look like either of those guys.
Sun Mar 10, 2013, 02:46 AM
Mar 2013

I'm much fatter than Oswald. Also, I don't shoot unless at the range.

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