General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBREAKING: Fukushima Daiichi plant has lost power
http://fukushima-diary.com/2013/03/alert-all-powers-been-down-in-fukushima-plant-for-over-3-hours-tepco-investigating-the-reason/:The coolant system of the spent fuel pools of reactor1, 3 and 4 has been out of operation for over 3 hours already.
Seismic isolation building has lost power too. Tepco is still investigating the reason.
It is currently the top Japanese news story:
http://enenews.com/fukushima-daiichi-power-blackout-top-story-japan-news-sites-video
LOSS OF POWER SEEN AT 2:49:
Live Cam Video 3 minutes = 1 hour
To make matters even worse, Fukushima is under severe storm warnings tonight:
http://fukushima-diary.com/2013/03/alert-common-pool-of-6377-fuel-assemblies-lost-power-too-fukushima-is-under-storm-warnings/
I will update as often as I can.
UPDATE: Tepco is receiving power from Tohoku-Electric Power Co, but they are having some problems with sending it to the coolant system of SFPs. http://fukushima-diary.com/2013/03/alert-fukushima-emission-to-reach-tokyo-area-from-afternoon-of-3192013/
MOST RECENT UPDATE FROM KYODO NEWS:
TOKYO, March 18, Kyodo
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Monday a problem with electric power has occurred at its crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, leading to the suspension of the system to cool spent fuel pools of the Nos. 1, 3 and 4 units.
The incident, however, so far has not affected the ongoing water injection to the Nos. 1 to 3 reactors, which suffered core meltdowns in the early days of the March 2011 nuclear crisis, according to the Nuclear Regulation Authority.
No abnormality has been detected in radiation levels in areas surrounding the plant in Fukushima Prefecture.
UPDATE: Now up on AP. TEPCO states the spent fuel pools will remain safe for at least 4 days:
March 18, 2013 12:33 PM EST | AP
TOKYO A power failure at Japan's tsunami-damaged nuclear plant on Monday night has left three fuel storage pools without fresh cooling water for hours, the plant's operator said.
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said the power failure at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant was brief at its command center but continued for hours at three of the seven fuel storage pools and at several other facilities, including one that treats water contaminated with radioactivity.
TEPCO said the reactors were unaffected and no other abnormalities were found. TEPCO spokesman Takeo Iwamoto said the utility plans to restore power to the pool cooling systems as soon as it can determine the cause of the failure.
The utility said the nuclear fuel stored in the pools will remain safe for at least four days without fresh cooling water...
http://enenews.com/ap-fukushima-plant-blackout-has-continued-for-hours-3-fuel-pools-without-fresh-cooling-water
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Do they at least have functioning generators on site?
FourScore
(9,704 posts)but they are having some problems with sending it to the coolant system of the Spent Fuel Pools. http://fukushima-diary.com/2013/03/alert-fukushima-emission-to-reach-tokyo-area-from-afternoon-of-3192013/
The one place where it is absolutely critical that they have power.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)The reactors are still being cooled. The spent fuel pools are not being cooled. If left too long, these SPF's could catch fire, perhaps even become re-critical. It is an alarming and very dangerous situation, but TEPCO does have some time to fix it before it escalates out of control.
FBaggins
(26,729 posts)Two years of clarifications on these points and you still think that things could "get very ugly very quickly"?
The reactors were shut down over two years ago. There is much MUCH less heat being produced.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)Nothing to see hear. Just move along...
FBaggins
(26,729 posts)... things are either "wholesome as apple pie" or about to kill millions of people worldwide?
Sorry... but this simply isn't a big deal. It's not apple pie, but it's also not worth making the news.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)since it's their top story right now.
Besides, I never said it's about to kill millions of people.
It is a POTENTIALLY very dangerous situation. They have some time to fix it. But to ignore the potential for danger is either ignorant or naive.
You may not think it is a big deal. We'll agree to disagree on that one.
FBaggins
(26,729 posts)Since they exist to pump Fukushima fears... that's no surprise.
Nor would I be surprised to find it on Godlikeproductions or similar conspiracy/UFO nutcase sites.
Besides, I never said it's about to kill millions of people.
Oh? so you caught the hyperbole? Note - it doesn't make any more sense to read my comment as "apple pie".
It is a POTENTIALLY very dangerous situation.
Nope. It doesn't get "very dangerous" unless they ignore it for many days. There's no reason to think they'll do that... nor that power would be unavailble for that long in the absence of a destroyed infrastructure ala 3/11/11
For a disaster they've predicted will require 'at least four decades' to repair and clean up, anything less than a month is "very quickly."
99Forever
(14,524 posts)(Yes, that was completely understated and in no way meant to insult)
Do you have any handle of what this might mean if they don't get the power back on line?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That increases the rate of loss of water from the pools via evaporation. If the water level drops too much, we get back to a point where the spent fuel overheats, and the zircalloy cladding can burn, offgas hydrogen, fires etc.
Should take a while, more than a day to see the pools drop though, and the problem can be temporarily stopgapped by simple smaller generators, and fire pumps to spray in water.
Doesn't sound like the reactors have lost cooling. They probably can't go re-critical, but overheating could lead to increased degradation of the containment, and complicate cleanup.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Generally what I thought, but I'm far from a nuke expert. Scary stuff.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The spent fuel is probably the larger of the remaining threats from that site. That stuff has to be kept cool and submerged. If for no other reason than to lower the overall radiation dose of being in the area, due to 'skyshine' (all the bad particles scatter in the atmosphere, so the stuff wouldn't just radiate straight up, away from the site, it would raise the dose of the entire site). The workers HAVE to get in there and continue the cleanup. Can't do that if the pools are bare, even if they DON'T catch fire (which they necessarily must if cooling is totally lost for long enough and no other cooling can be brought to bear)
madokie
(51,076 posts)thanks for the heads up
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Response to FourScore (Original post)
TDale313 This message was self-deleted by its author.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Will keep an eye on this for obvious reasons.
madokie
(51,076 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)...when we will not be able to eat any seafood, period. With all the oils spills and reactor mishaps. I won't miss it, as I don't eat much fish anyway, but I'm an anomaly.
Autumn
(45,057 posts)now it scares the hell out of me.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... we can't eat seafood, GMOs are ruining the rest of our food supply. Are we being driven back to the agrarian age?
StrayKat
(570 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #21)
StrayKat This message was self-deleted by its author.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)StrayKat
(570 posts)FBaggins
(26,729 posts)I haven't seen the statement, but I'd bet it's related to the water staying below some temperature for that long.
There hasn't been fresh fuel added to the pools for over two years, so the produced heat would be pretty low. I'd estimate a week or more to hit the boiling point and a number of days to boil low enough to be a problem.
And, of course, all they have to do during that time is add water. Since there hasn't been an earthquake/tsunami that destroyed access to the plant... and there aren't ongoing meltdowns and explosions to worry about... I'd say pumping a little water wouldn't be that hard in the unlikely event that a power outage lasted for days.
StrayKat
(570 posts)According to Tepco, the pool water of reactor1 is extremely contaminated compared to other 3 spent fuel pools, which is 5266 times worse than the spent fuel pool of reactor4.
http://fukushima-diary.com/
FBaggins
(26,729 posts)"Contamination" doesn't have anything to do with the amount of decay heat being produced. It's a simple matter of the amount of spent fuel and the age of same. Since the "youngest" fuel in the pool is about two and half years old... there isn't much heat. The less heat there is, the longer it takes to raise the temperature of that much water.
5266 times worse than the spent fuel pool of reactor4.
That's a comparison of the amount of Cesium... which simply isn't a big factor in decay heat production.
Take, for instance, that contamination level of 23.7 Billion Bq/m3. One gram of Cs137 has an activity level of over one hundred times that amount... but there are many tons of uranium/plutonium/etc in the spent fuel.
In short... F-diary doesn't know what they're talking about. They're just good at scaring people.
StrayKat
(570 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)TEPCO assured the cause of the incident has been found and work to fix the system has been started. So far the temperature in pools has remained around 25 degrees Celsius, which is considered not dangerous. If the cooling system cannot be fixed, temperatures would likely rise in the fuel pools, becoming unsafe at 65 degrees. While it is unclear how long repairs might take, the operator said fuel stored in the pools would remain safe for at least four days without fresh cooling water.
FBaggins
(26,729 posts)I'm not sure why they chose 65 degrees. It's probably a regulatory limit.
It fits my estimate of a week and a half or so to boil... then additional days to boil down to a dangerous level.
Hard to believe that there's any risk at all of them not being able to add water by that point.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Nankai Trough quake damage to cost $2.3 trillion
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20130318_25.html
A mega-quake and tsunami are forecast along the Pacific coast near central to western Japan.
New damage estimates were released on Monday. Previous estimates included as many as 323 thousand casualties.
...
Officials say up to 34.4 million people will have no water immediately following the earthquake.
Of them, some 4.6 million people will still be without water even one month later. Power outages will hit 27.1 million households, and even one week later 880 thousand will still be without power.
Earthquakes are a much bigger risk than nuclear power in Japan. Note that the tsunami caused almost all the deaths, not the Fukushima reactor meltdown.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)Long term I'm not so sure
talkingmime
(2,173 posts)derby378
(30,252 posts)The people in that region have had enough adversity for at least one lifetime. I hope this doesn't get any worse than it already is.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)corroding the cooling tanks. They wont last another eight years, if that.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)...and won't be for a long long time...this is a constant threat.
Response to FourScore (Original post)
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NickB79
(19,233 posts)Japan is importing gobs of natural gas from around the world, including gas fracked here in the US.
And they've recently announced success at mining for methane hydrates, aka FRACKING THE OCEAN: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2013/03/japan-taps-methane-hydrate-fro.html
It's a fucked-up world we live in.
Response to NickB79 (Reply #30)
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Cleita
(75,480 posts)They should have been taken off the job when the first meltdown happened. I can't see where anyone would give them any credibility for telling the truth about safety.
NealK
(1,865 posts)cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)and its why discouraging the building of nuclear plants should be done.
malaise
(268,949 posts)This looks serious
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I've read the posts herein above, and I find it's the same kind of 'back and forth' I've seen before in threads about Fukushima.
I wonder why anyone trusts TEPCO's 'reporting.' I wonder why anyone tries to 'quantify' the dangers posed by this nuclear disaster, as though their cautionary words mitigate the DECADES required to 'clean up' this site.
TEPCO, the Japanese government, OUR government and the IAEA seem to be working hard to assuage the fears of the Hoi Polloi, but I doubt that they're telling us the truth.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)It is assessing the cause of the outage, which began on Monday evening.
The "highest priority" was being placed on restoring the cooling system to the spent fuel pool at reactor 4, Kyodo news agency quoted Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) spokesperson Masayuki Ono as saying.
The hottest of the ponds, its temperature stood at 30.5C on Tuesday morning, Tepco said, well below the safety limit of 65C. It estimated it would take four days to reach that limit.
Sid
Miami4Obama
(41 posts)He lives in the beautiful prefecture of Kanazawa, and I am always on the lookout for what's happening in Japan. He's been there since he went as a JET Program Instructor. At the end of the contract he was so happy there that he stayed and is doing pretty well, and I am amazed at how he speaks the language so flawlessly and perfect. I will keep coming to this post for more info on the nuclear thing. thanks so much for posting it. Although it is not near where my bro lives but still, it's something that must be followed.