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Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:18 PM

Just ripped a co-worker. Now I feel terrible.

This co-worker sees me as a sort of mentor. I've shepherded her through her moderate advances at the company, and encouraged her throughout, both professionally and personally. This includes frequent discussions about politics and current events. Yes, that's probably bad policy in the workplace, but it's fairly common here.

I have long known that she has a conservative stripe, even at the same time as she tries to overcome some biases. Trick is, you can only transcend your biases when you can see them for what they are.

Today she wanted to talk about Steubenville. She expressed dismay that the convicted rapists would be classified as sex offenders for the rest of their lives. I reminded her that a rape survivor remains a rape survivor for the rest of her life. Then she started in on "well, when slutty girls go to parties and drink, what can they expect to have happen?"

Lost it. I told her that the word "slutty" is not acceptable and that she was a rape apologist. She claimed not to understand the term "rape culture," claiming (as she often does) that it was made up by the politically correct elite (hear the talking points here?) She can believe it or not, but it exists. Standing in sanctimonious judgment of women's behavior makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.

But now I feel kinda bad because I think I missed what might have been a teachable moment due to my own (triggered) reaction as a survivor of a similar type of sexual assault. Which I shared with her. Somehow my rape was "different." I don't know how that could be, because essentially the same criteria were met. I was drunk and a man I trusted raped me while I was passed out.

Tired of hearing about rape culture? Guess what. I'm tired of living in it. So very tired. I feel like we have to start this struggle fresh every day.

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Reply Just ripped a co-worker. Now I feel terrible. (Original post)
lapislzi Mar 2013 OP
love_katz Mar 2013 #1
Mopar151 Mar 2013 #29
redqueen Mar 2013 #40
Mopar151 Mar 2013 #78
DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #126
Mopar151 Mar 2013 #130
Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #47
eggplant Mar 2013 #55
smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #145
chervilant Mar 2013 #128
gtar100 Mar 2013 #114
love_katz Mar 2013 #132
EOTE Mar 2013 #2
calimary Mar 2013 #97
CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2013 #3
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #4
love_katz Mar 2013 #5
ReRe Mar 2013 #49
spooky3 Mar 2013 #87
ReRe Mar 2013 #90
RVN VET Mar 2013 #111
ReRe Mar 2013 #135
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #6
lapislzi Mar 2013 #15
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #19
bettyellen Mar 2013 #36
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #58
bettyellen Mar 2013 #59
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #62
MoclipsHumptulips Mar 2013 #63
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #65
MoclipsHumptulips Mar 2013 #67
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #83
Caretha Mar 2013 #79
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #81
busterbrown Mar 2013 #95
lapislzi Mar 2013 #100
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #102
busterbrown Mar 2013 #113
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #121
busterbrown Mar 2013 #131
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #136
busterbrown Mar 2013 #137
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #139
busterbrown Mar 2013 #142
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #144
davidn3600 Mar 2013 #112
smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #147
lapislzi Mar 2013 #72
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #80
lapislzi Mar 2013 #101
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #103
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #124
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #86
busterbrown Mar 2013 #96
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #125
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #138
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #140
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #141
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #143
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #149
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #150
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #151
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #152
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #153
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #154
mercuryblues Mar 2013 #155
homegirl Mar 2013 #118
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #123
redqueen Mar 2013 #7
randome Mar 2013 #8
azureblue Mar 2013 #70
gateley Mar 2013 #9
JI7 Mar 2013 #10
MineralMan Mar 2013 #11
patrice Mar 2013 #12
lapislzi Mar 2013 #18
patrice Mar 2013 #31
bettyellen Mar 2013 #37
love_katz Mar 2013 #88
grilled onions Mar 2013 #13
love_katz Mar 2013 #89
markpkessinger Mar 2013 #14
Whisp Mar 2013 #16
ljm2002 Mar 2013 #17
BillyJack Mar 2013 #75
Arkana Mar 2013 #20
lapislzi Mar 2013 #21
CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2013 #22
SunSeeker Mar 2013 #25
noiretextatique Mar 2013 #27
Blanks Mar 2013 #30
JI7 Mar 2013 #33
sheshe2 Mar 2013 #34
nenagh Mar 2013 #41
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #43
lapislzi Mar 2013 #73
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #84
lapislzi Mar 2013 #106
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #115
lapislzi Mar 2013 #133
Cassidy Mar 2013 #120
Cassidy Mar 2013 #122
delrem Mar 2013 #77
lapislzi Mar 2013 #107
redqueen Mar 2013 #44
randome Mar 2013 #45
LittleBlue Mar 2013 #52
lapislzi Mar 2013 #74
ljm2002 Mar 2013 #93
McCamy Taylor Mar 2013 #99
OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #110
Blue Gardener Mar 2013 #23
Vanje Mar 2013 #129
SheilaT Mar 2013 #24
Little Star Mar 2013 #39
seabeyond Mar 2013 #26
RudynJack Mar 2013 #28
Live and Learn Mar 2013 #94
Rozlee Mar 2013 #32
Control-Z Mar 2013 #35
awoke_in_2003 Mar 2013 #38
Smilo Mar 2013 #42
Rex Mar 2013 #46
SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #48
maddiemom Mar 2013 #50
ReRe Mar 2013 #51
rocktivity Mar 2013 #53
Iris Mar 2013 #54
defacto7 Mar 2013 #56
Warpy Mar 2013 #57
Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #60
PM Martin Mar 2013 #61
redqueen Mar 2013 #71
valerief Mar 2013 #64
ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #66
tclambert Mar 2013 #68
bluedigger Mar 2013 #69
Cha Mar 2013 #76
MichiganVote Mar 2013 #82
TxDemChem Mar 2013 #85
Pakid Mar 2013 #91
Swede Atlanta Mar 2013 #92
McCamy Taylor Mar 2013 #98
RKP5637 Mar 2013 #104
marions ghost Mar 2013 #105
LineReply ?
grschaef Mar 2013 #108
RedstDem Mar 2013 #109
lunasun Mar 2013 #116
lunatica Mar 2013 #117
lapislzi Mar 2013 #134
santamargarita Mar 2013 #119
nicky187 Mar 2013 #127
markiv Mar 2013 #146
smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #148

Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:21 PM

1. I am tired of living in a patriarchy, period.

Patriarchal culture is rape culture because if is based on violence and might makes right.

to you.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:37 PM

29. Broad brush much or what?

Patriarchal culture is rape culture


WTF is up with you? I'm personally offended, as is 49% or so of humanity. And there is a whole bunch of ugly stuff surrounding matriarchy and sex, like slut shaming and shunning, that is very much a part of "rape culture.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #29)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:08 PM

40. You're offended on behalf of the patriarchy?

You know 'patriarchy' isn't a synonym for 'men', right?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #40)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:15 PM

78. Boosterisim, which is what happened here, is more like an absence of partiarchy

That party spot the kids used belonged to a booster/wannabe coach. There are any number of well-known coaches who are strong patriarchal figures (Joe Gibbs, John Wooden), and you are highly unlikely to find any players on their teams in situations like this. And evidently, no coaches like that exist within spittin' distance of Stupidville.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #78)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:41 PM

126. ??????????

So, I guess a fine patriarch like Joe Paterno would have put a stop to that, right?

The stupid, it hurts, even on DU.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #126)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 04:53 PM

130. Paterno may have played at being a patriarch

But, at least as I see it, he didn't step up when the time came to do so - so if he is a patriarch, he's a failed one.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #29)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:21 PM

47. Another candidate for dumbest thing ever written here.

 



Oh, and quit pretending to speak for the rest of us, it's embarrassing enough just being a man with a working brain.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #47)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:26 PM

55. +1 n/t

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:30 AM

145. Thanks for that.

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Response to Mopar151 (Reply #29)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 04:12 PM

128. Patriarchy is a social construct

that is damaging to all humans, regardless of gender.

I am not surprised when men react defensively, since we've little research about how patriarchy delimits men.

I encourage you to read any (all) of the following:

The Mermaid and the Minotaur (Dinnerstein)

Beyond Power (French)

Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)

There are many other resources that can help you understand why patriarchal culture = rape culture. I hope that you will commit your passionate feelings about this issue to learning more.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:26 AM

114. Me too. It's completely out of balance with our better instincts.

We need a major paradigm shift. Can't imagine it happening any time soon, though. But I refuse to play along and think that men are somehow superior leaders. I see most of it as just bluster and ego.

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #114)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:20 PM

132. Thank you for the reply.

We DO need a major paradigm shift. We need a society that is not based on violence and the few having power over the many.

Men are not superior leaders...if that was so, then why are we in such a mess? Men have had the leadership reins for several thousand years. I think the evidence speaks for itself, there isn't any need to spin it or broad brush anyone, as my accuser tried to imply. Bluster and ego...that is exactly what it is.

The problem is that the few who wield the power and have the money to buy influence are able to brainwash too many of the rest of us that they will be complete losers if we ever achieve real social justice, etc. It is too bad that those being brainwashed never stop to think about who REALLY benefits when they support agendas to return us to the (mythical) 1950's, or the Dark Ages feudal society they seem to long for. The brainwashed people fail to see how they would benefit in a just and peaceful society.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:22 PM

2. You shouldn't feel terrible.

Some people don't learn things easily and need to be shamed. I don't think the teachable moment was missed, it just might take her a while to integrate the lesson. I'm pretty sure the people who make comments like this have been told in the past that their comments are inappropriate, they just don't care. I'd imagine for lots of them that shaming will be the only thing that works.

So sorry for what you've been through

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Response to EOTE (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:28 AM

97. Most assuredly you shouldn't feel terrible!

That kind of attitude, when voiced out loud, SHOULD be shouted down. Most of those who do are usually encouraged by the fact that nobody checks that behavior. They can state those things with impunity, unchallenged, unquestioned, and that's how attitudes like that gain credibility and increasing acceptance. Nobody stands up and says "NOW WAIT JUST A DAMN MOMENT!!!" I sometimes prefer "excuse the fuck outta me!" but that's not always acceptable language in social settings. So, in absence of anybody standing up and saying "NOW WAIT JUST A DAMN MOMENT!", with nothing said, and nobody objecting, and nobody trying to push back, and nobody saying "OH NO YOU DON'T!!!" -

THEN - the statement stands.

Unchallenged.

Unquestioned.

Undebated.

Unrebutted.

Uncontested.

So it's allowed to stand. And therefore eventually becomes "truth."

"... well, nobody said anything..."

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:22 PM

3. Remember that you have limits, and that today she violated them. You are HUMAN.

She deserved what you gave her...don't beat yourself up.

And yes, we do have to start this struggle fresh every day...

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:24 PM

4. Devils advocate, to a point,

 

As you noted it is difficult to see your own biases.

The general culture, even the politically correct CNN, denies this culture exists.

It is hard to step outside, unless quite frankly you have been there (I am sorry), you are one of those mythical elites that dare speak of the problem in academic journals, or have the ability to step out the culture.

It will take those of us who can...to make a lot of noise, starting with those damn conservative media at CNN.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:26 PM

5. I can understand how it would be really hard to remain calm and level headed when...

her statements and attitude pushed your buttons. You did share your history as a survivor. Hopefully, the light bulb will go off in her head, and she will get a clue.

She may not realize how many survivors are all around her. Someone tried to rape me when I was young and naive, and he used both alcohol and drugs on me. Fortunately for me, I got very sick, and vomited all over both of us. I guess that was a little off-putting , but it wasn't like he didn't try.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #5)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:44 PM

49. Hey... I think you've got something there...

... if a girl/woman has been drinking and munching out a little too much, and she finds herself about to be raped, she could stick a couple fingers down her throat to induce vomiting. And she might direct the vomit all over him. Having spent allot of time around guys (hubby and sons (no daughters), I can tell you for sure that guys don't like PUKE. Their own or no one else's.
So, remember this: use puke as a weapon. Let. Him. Have. It!









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Response to ReRe (Reply #49)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 11:17 PM

87. Actually, I believe the reports on Steubenville indicated that Jane Doe vomited.

I don't think that it offers any protection, especially if the motivation is to humiliate someone.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #87)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 12:23 AM

90. Oh really? I didn't hear that report.

... If she did, she damn sure didn't induce it.

Oh no, we wouldn't want to humiliate the rapist, now would we?

And you don't think it offers much protection?

Me thinks you protestith too much. No?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #90)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:30 AM

111. The motivation for the RAPISTS was to humiliate

Sheeesh! I think you need to read a little more carefully.

It's the rapist, not the victim who seeks to inflict humiliation. That's why the two Steubenville morons laughed when the peed on the girl. That's why the gleefully allowed themselves to be videoed violating her.

Not the puker, the rapist, fps (for pete's sake).

Got it?

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Response to RVN VET (Reply #111)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:47 PM

135. Huh? Hello? You are answering someone else's question?

I think you pushed the wrong reply button, my DU friend. I was conversing with spooky3.
"What we have 'he-ah, is a failya', tacommunicate."

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:28 PM

6. She sure didn't express herself well. Maybe she thinks that people of all genders didn't

 

put themselves in a situation while impaired things wouldn't have happened in the first place. Especially guys underage who are drinking and acting like jerks in the first place. Of course girls shouldn't go out drinking and not being aware of what is going on around them. I'm sure no one goes out thinking they are going to get raped. I know when I was young I didn't drink, period. If I went to a friends house where they had booze I didn't stay, period. You have to look out for yourself or situations like Steubenville will happen. It is what it is. I still want to know who did she go with? What happened to the buddy system? Why didn't any of the girls step in to help her seeing she was drunk? There was enough blame to go around but the most blame go to the boys because the girl was drunk and she didn't asked to be raped. Also I blame the parents who allow the parties with booze.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:41 PM

15. The adults who permitted, condoned, and encouraged the drinking are criminals.

No two ways about that. It being the town it is, nobody is being held accountable for that side of it.

Little's been said about other girls present at the parties. 16 is a squirrely age. My daughter told her share of lies about where she was going at that age. It was a full time job on weekends to call parents, verify whereabouts, etc. If she skipped out while I was at work, it might have been hours before I could track her down. This wasn't a frequent occurrence (fortunately), and so far as I know, no rapes occurred. She got drunk and sick once, and that was the last incident.

As I had it explained to me (wish I had listened), there is no time when it's acceptable to be impaired.

That is a completely different discussion than the fact that at no time is it acceptable to perform a sex act on an unconscious or unconsenting person.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #15)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:52 PM

19. Your right. I just don't get where were the parents that owned the homes this was going on?

 

I don't get it. Why aren't any of them being held accountable? I will tell you this much. I had a strict father. I would never ever do anything I knew he would be mad at me for. I never like booze so I never drank. I never let some guy touch me other than a good nice kiss. If he thought just because he took me to a movie or to a McDonald's he was entitled to something more than that I would not go out with him again. I didn't date much. Lucky for me I found the right man when I was 29 yrs and married him a few months later. Happily married for 35 yrs. I don't get this thing about going out and getting drunk to have a good time. I guess living overseas we didn't do those kind of things. We had good clean fun. There were places that were safe to go to and young people would go to and dance and meet people. I never saw people getting drunk or acting like fools. No one deserves to be raped, period. That includes boys being raped.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:47 PM

36. "There was enough blame to go around" <-- Yep, that girl should never ever be alone with a guy!!

 

WTF was she thinking?
(Actually WTF are YOU thinking?!?!)

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #36)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:54 PM

58. Hey Betty, I think I have a right to my opinion just like you have your right to yours.

 

Wheter you like it or not she and the boys shouldn't of been drinking. None of this would of happen. Don't F***ing blame me. Those are the facts. Everyone in this whole situation did something wrong and yes including the girl. I'm not saying she deserved to be raped. But she was responsible for herself not getting drunk in the first place. She didn't asked to be raped. The sad thing is this girl is going to feel bad for a very long time. I bet in her mind (if it had been me) she probably thinks why did I go drinking. Especially since I'm underage. Don't shoot the messenger Betty. I'm telling it like it is. If she had been sober she could have punch the guy and left had he tried something. I don't get these kids who are underage and go drinking. Teens and drinking don't mix. This should be a wake up call to all parents and teens for sure. Am not excusing the rape, she didn't deserve it.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #58)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 08:21 PM

59. "If she had been sober she could have punch the guy and left had he tried something."<--Rape Culture

 

Always finds way to put the responsibility on the victim.
I guess all 50 party goers should have known they were risking sodomy too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #59)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 08:54 PM

62. Well Betty Guess whatever you say is fine. Rape culture. Ok whatever. One thing

 

though Miss Betty I bet she'll never get drunk again,what ya think? What a hell of a life's lesson. I bet those boys won't rape again either since they rape the girl and ended up where they should have in jail doing time. That is their life's lesson for sure. I just hope teens learn that drinking and teens don't mix. I think it's a life lesson for all of us. You want to call it a rape culture then fine by me. Unlike you I think just alittle different from you. I have a granddaughter and nieces and we talk alot about being responsible for yourself. Thank goodness that none of them drink. In fact in my whole family we don't drink. It's not that we are against people drinking its we just don't like it. Maybe I'll cook with wine now and then. But I'm happy that none of my family drink and not even my son. Also I tell my girls not to forget the buddy system. Go out in a group and watch out for each other and don't leave anyone behind. This young girl's friend let her down big time. I also tell them never leave their drinks (like soda) unattended. Some guys are terrible.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #62)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:09 PM

63. Stop blaming the victim

 

it is sickening.

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Response to MoclipsHumptulips (Reply #63)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:13 PM

65. Sorry, I stand by my opinion. You stand by yours. I am not blaming her for being raped.

 

I am blaming her for getting drunk. Just like I blame the rapist boys for raping a girl that was drunk.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #65)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:28 PM

67. Disgusting

 

you blame her. "I blame her for getting drunk".

Have the last word, you clearly need it.

She is not to blame for any of it, just absolutely sickening and disgusting on Democratic forums.

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Response to MoclipsHumptulips (Reply #67)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:37 PM

83. You kidding? Grow Up. Last time I checked this forum is a DISCUSSION forum. It doesn't

 

mean you have to have a forum where everyone sings happy, happy, happy songs. Goodness. You don't like what I said you have a choice. Comment respectfully or don't make a comment. But who placed you as the president of the DU forum. I haven't been disrespectful to anyone on this forum. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean you and others have to be nasty. When you get nasty comments thats what you get back.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #65)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:17 PM

79. You got one thing right

 

and only one thing....you are "Sorry".

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Response to Caretha (Reply #79)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:33 PM

81. Yep, you are "sorry" too. KMA

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #65)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:48 AM

95. She got drunk cause thatís what many do at her age. Just because you didnít drink, donít start

passing judgment. Kids drink, they get dizzy, throw up..and learn.. Some never have another drink, some continue moderately and others become alcoholics.. Now that I said this. What the hell does any of this have to do with rape... ??

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #95)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:30 AM

100. Exactly!

There are (dumb) things teenagers do, like drinking and pulling stupid pranks. Rape is far, far outside that category of "stupid shit kids do." And the former (rape) is in now way excused or mitigated by the latter.

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #95)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:38 AM

102. Well now you see what happens when a person isn't in control because they were drinking.

 

And no it's not what many kids go do. I guess it happens with certain crowds. All am saying when you are looking to have fun maybe you should try a movie, bowling, or any other activity that doesn't involve drinking. You are saying I am passing judgement. I am not trying to all am saying is the truth.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #102)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:55 AM

113. You live in your very own bubble which covers you from reality.

ďTry bowling or a movieĒ....Iím sure many of them tried these things including church youth groups and they
just didnít work for them..Its all a right of passage.... and you can vet many of these girls will turn out to be
Teachers, Mds, lawyers etc..So what you say is not close to the truth..

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #113)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:13 PM

121. I am living in reality sweetie pie. So you think it is ok for teens to go out and drink and act

 

like a bunch of asses? That's what your saying? Yep, I guess I am living in a bubble and pray if you have kids you wouldn't be sitting in a courthouse because your kid got caught underage drinking. I guess you thinks its ok.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #121)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:05 PM

131. No I donít think its o.k...... I just know it happens and there is not a thing you can...

do about. I know plenty of parents who have strong faith, donít drink and yet their kids end up having problems. Some of them are right of passage issues and they transition very nicely into adulthood and yet
others get trapped in the viscous cycle of drugs and alcohol....Please try to get real!!!

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #131)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:05 PM

136. You live in your reality of kids doing things that are illegal and I will live in mine. I am no

 

bible pusher that is for sure. I am not judging someones religion here. I am just going by what is illegal or legal. Kids shouldn't be "transitioning" to adulthood that way. Maybe the transition would be finding a job and maybe buy a car, you know being responsible citizen. Those are the kinds of things I would hope my kid will be doing. I am not say kids are always perfect. Every kid will tell a lie to a parent if they can get away with it.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #136)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:20 PM

137. ďKids shouldnítĒ God ...in a perfect world maybe.....

Believe me parents who feel the exact way you do have ended up hopeless...
Some of the worst cases of addiction and alcoholism I have ever seen, have come from good homes with
wonderful parents.. You just never know. You sound like you have some control issues..Just because youíre all over your kids day and night does not mean that you will be able to prevent them from finding trouble.

Loving and trusting your kids to do the right thing in my opinion, is the only way to go...

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #137)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:46 PM

139. Well I dunno. I am not saying am perfect. Not at all. But I will tell you this much if

 

my son ended up in jail arrested for drunk driving and he calls me to come bail him out. I'd say hell no. Stay in jail. Then when he got home I would ask him what would have happened if you would have killed someone? Actions have consequence. I will also tell you when I was a kid my parents made it a point to meet my friends parents if they decided if I could spend the night at a friend's house. I see nothing wrong with that. If we went to a movie my dad took us and the other father picked us up and brought us home, or the other way around. You call that controlling well I have never had a kid come home drunk. They all worked in their high school years. We kids had to behave because my father was a senior enlisted man and way back then us kids had to be on our best behaviour. It stuck with me and I used it in my family. They still can watch tv, play their music, all the tech games and have friends over. They are welcome to go down in the basement and have fun. But the kids know the rules. My son and now my granddaughter respect the rules. I'm pretty flexiable if there is something they really want to do. But I ask alot of questions before I say yes. I see nothing wrong with that. It's called being a responsible parent. Oh by the way if my kid found trouble I will pray like hell that he/she learns a valuable lesson.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #139)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:32 AM

142. I hope everything remains well with your family...

However Iím done...
Iíll leave you with this. No one can be certain of anything. And if my son were to end up in Jail with D.U.I
Iíd be down in a heartbeat, you leaving him in jail might not turn out to the lesson you think it would be..
Tough love can certainly work..But it can also lead to terrible consequences under certain circumstances...

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #142)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:28 AM

144. Yes, I'm kind of tired too. We all had some say and we can leave it at that. Thanks for

 

the honest back and forth. Have a good day.

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Response to MoclipsHumptulips (Reply #63)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:36 AM

112. So rape prevention is blaming the victim?

 

That's total and complete bullshit!

Im going to tell you right now...if I ever have a daughter, I will make sure she learns self-defense and learn rape prevention. And yes, I will teach her how to use a gun. I will educate her about the type of people she hangs out with. I will tell her to not leave her drink unattended or walk down a poorly lit street. etc, etc, etc...

Why? Because we live in a fucked up world. Should women have to learn such things or take such precautions? No. Absolutely not. But we don't live in a perfect crime-free utopia. We never will. And I'm not going to pretend that we do. There will always be a criminal out there. That's not going to change no matter what. No civilization in our history has ever stopped crime.

I should also be able to go to bed without locking my front door. I should be able to drive my car without having to make sure the door is locked. I should be able to go down a dark alley without having to look over my shoulder. I should be able to go through an airport without being molested by TSA. Why can't I do these things? Because I recognize there are many people in this world that would not hesitate to break into my house, carjack me, mug me in the alley, or hijack my plane and crash it into a building.

We live in a very sick world. That's just reality. It is what it is. All you can do is take precautions and prepare yourself for dangerous situations, and always be aware of our surroundings. That's just common sense!

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Response to MoclipsHumptulips (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:42 AM

147. Thank YOU!

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #58)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:52 PM

72. I am not entirely sure that the girl willingly drank.

I don't recall that coming to light. Her texts indicated that she could not remember and that she thought she had been drugged. Maybe she did drink. That's a bad choice, and that's all it is.

The worst of the worst judgment is on the part of the adults who provided alcohol to minors, knowing full well that football and the law were in each other's pockets and nothing would be done.

There was a case in Harrison, NY, a few years ago, also involving football and parents providing alcohol to kids. Fortunately, no rapes occurred (that we know of) and no drunk driving incidents occurred. But, the mom whose home it was did jail time.

That needs to happen more often.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #72)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:32 PM

80. I think they deserve to sit in jail for raping the girl. To me all am trying to say that

 

any underage teens drinking should be proscuted. Maybe this will help cut down on teen drinking. But to me the majority of the fault should go to the parents if they know their kids are having a party in the house and having booze. I would tell you this much if it were my daughter I would be sueing the parents of the house for not supervising what is going on in the house. I have a hard time believing as loud as they get no parent heard what was going on.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #80)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:36 AM

101. With all due respect, don't be naive.

Of course the parents knew what was going on. I'm sure it was all wink-wink "kids are gettin' into mischief." It was football. The 27 (or however many it was; it was ridiculous) "assistant coaches" knew that any shenanigans would result in no more than a slap on the wrist, or maybe a wagged finger by Sheriff Abdallah at his weekly breakfast with the head coach.

All of this reprehensible behavior was sanctioned, encouraged, even. If some "drunk slutty girl" (my colleague's words) got herself into hot water, well, what could she expect.

None of the adults in this scenario thought they were doing anything wrong. Neither did any of the boys.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #101)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:44 AM

103. On the contrary I think the parents should be in jail for allowing them to have booze at the house.

 

Last edited Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

If the coaches and assistants new they should be in jail. This girl didn't deserve to be raped, period. If they slipped her a micky that is even worse. But when it comes to booze I don't want to give any of these kids free passes. None of them shouldn't get a pass for underage drinking because it's illegal and I don't get why everyone wants them to get a free pass. It should never be a passage of a teen.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:33 PM

124. Evidently nothing.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 11:07 PM

86. Let me get this straight, a girl goes to a couple of parties with who she thinks are friends...

 

including a boy she thinks likes her, get's roofied(most likely) and raped as part of a twisted revenge plot from her ex, and she shares part of the blame? Are you that fucking twisted in the head? What the fuck, seriously, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #86)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:49 AM

96. Sheís gone....Thank God.....

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #86)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:38 PM

125. I have no idea about this whole case what really went down. Neither do you. So say all

 

the "Fucks" you want. They were all doing something that was illegal in the first place. I don't know about mickies put in her drinks. But her friends were at this party and no one did anything not even her so called girls friends. Thats telling don't you think? There is nothing wrong with me because I don't agree with you. Your an asshole who loves the word "Fuck". That is all I will say to you.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #125)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:45 PM

138. I have no idea about this whole case what really went down.

Yet you feel compelled to comment on it like you do know what happened.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #138)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:52 PM

140. So you think you know everything? I doubt it. No one really knows what happened.

 

All we know for sure is a couple of asses raped a young girl who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. She and her so called girlfriends were there while she was being raped and did nothing. The boys and their friends were texting back and forth telling them to piss on her and whatever else and they did nothing. All I can saying is they were all a bunch of drunk idiots who if they had not been drinking and getting drunk nothing like that would have happened I don't think, do you? Nobody really knows what happened 100%

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #140)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:21 PM

141. The

rapists planned this in advance to get even with her for breaking up with their friend a few weeks earlier. Drinking had nothing to do with their actions.

Since when is the penalty for underaged drinking for girls is to be raped? The date rape drug only stays in your system for so long. By the time the victim realizes that they were raped the drug is out of their system. From the photos of the girl it is evident that she was most likely drugged. So she could have been drinking soda for all it mattered. She could have been in the library, they were going to do this to her no matter what. It was a game to them.

So again, why do you feel the need to comment on something that you admittedly know nothing about?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #141)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:25 AM

143. I AM NOT BLAMING THE GIRL FOR BEING RAPED. PERIOD, END OF THE FUCKING STORY. I SO

 

TIRED OF HEARING IT.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #143)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:58 PM

149. Really

you wrote:

All I can saying is they were all a bunch of drunk idiots who if they had not been drinking and getting drunk nothing like that would have happened I don't think, do you?

When you say bunch of kids, who does that include and exclude?

Nothing about this being a premeditated attack? Nothing about her being drugged. Just blame the drinking. Why not put the blame where it really belongs...ON THE RAPISTS. Why is it so hard for you to do that?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #149)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:14 PM

150. Well lets face the facts if NONE OF THEM had been drinking this wouldn't have happened.

 

If you think that means I am putting blame on the girl solely then so be it. I am really talking in general anyway. This could happen in any state at any time with anyone. This should be a wake up call for everyone. Careful because this could be your daughter or son. I'll leave it at that have a good day mercuryblues. Thanks for the conservation back and forth. It has been interesting.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #150)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:39 PM

151. still ignoring

the fact that the rapists PLANNED the whole thing in advanced for revenge.Were they drinking when they PLANNED this weeks in advance?

Your words right here: NONE OF THEM, implies that the girl is partly responsible for her being raped. Shame on you. I ask again since when is the penalty for drinking being raped? Do you think the date rape drug the slipped her has any blame? Or just the alcohol?

You can not say in one sentence that you do not blame the victim then in the next, say that if none of them were drinking this would not have happened. They are mutually exclusive statements.

You said yourself that you don't know that much about this case. Yet, when I tell you she was drugged and this was planned you ignore it. Should I write in all caps?



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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #151)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:05 AM

152. Have a good day mercuryblues. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. It's

 

been nice going back and forth. I enjoyed it. Oh, I do feel badly for the girl.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #152)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:26 AM

153. sure

You said that you didn't know what happened in this case, but you know for sure drinking was to blame for all involved.

I gave you 2 very important facts about the case trying to inform you. It doesn't fit in with your opinion so you ignore it completely.

In doing so you are giving rapists an excuse to rape and placing the blame on the victim. Why is it so hard for you to place the blame for the girl being raped on the rapists?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #153)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:44 AM

154. Let it go mercuryblue. I agree if she was slipped something she didn't know it is a

 

sad situation. Either way she shouldn't have been raped. That we agree on. I am talking in general terms when underage drinking trouble follows. You can also agree with that much.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #154)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:34 AM

155. now

it is in gerneal terms. When before it was this specific case. Kids have been underaged drinking forever. Most of the time trouble does not follow. How many millions of kids do you suppose were underaged drinking this past weekend?

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 12:28 PM

118. Sisterhood

Yes, where were the girls, why didn't they step forward to stop this rape and degradation of another woman? I hope their parents have had some serious talks with them.

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Response to homegirl (Reply #118)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:32 PM

123. Well I sure see your point and as far as am concerned the girls are just as guilty as the

 

boys who sat there and watched. If one kid had the courage to say stop that might of helped others to stand up. The parents are no better for allowing booze in the house.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:29 PM

7. I'm sorry you feel terrible...

I imagine you communicated more to her than you think you did.

It isn't your fault that you went off. Being triggered is something we have little control over.

I'm really sorry you had to hear that victim blaming crap.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:30 PM

8. There's probably nothing wrong with continuing the conversation on a different level.

 

Maybe apologize for losing your temper but at the same time stating that you believe everything you said is true and you feel strongly about that.

But you'd know what's better in that situation.

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Response to randome (Reply #8)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:40 PM

70. remember the old phrase

about arguing with idiots? "They will bring you down to their level, their minds will never change and they have way more experience being idiots than you do". They are brainwashed, blinded by ideology, out of touch with reality and humanity, and they can't be changed. The only thing that changes them is when reality up and bites them. Save your breath and don't feel guilty. "You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make one drink"

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:33 PM

9. Apologize for losing it, and take the opportunity to open a dialogue

where you might be able to have that "teachable moment".

Not saying to apologize for your (correct) opinion, just that you could have handled it better then take it from there.

Just a suggestion. I hate that you feel bad about it.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:36 PM

10. you really shouldn't feel bad, not every case has to be polite"teachable moments"

especially when she tried to excuse what happened by attacking the rape victim.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:37 PM

11. You did just fine. She got defensive, which is not unusual.

I'm betting she thinks about what you said for some time, and she may just come to understand it. Epiphanies are rare. Slow recognition of things is far more usual. If you talk to her again about this, you can introduce some other ways of looking at it. Does she have children? There's a path for understanding. Does she have nieces? Another route. If you can bring it home to her that this young woman in Steubenville is someone's daughter and someone's niece, you may get through to her.

If not, well...you can't reach everyone. You can only try.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:38 PM

12. If you want people to understand you, it is helpful to understand them, because they react as

strongly as you do if they think you are missing their own, legitimate to them, point. If it's valuable to you to not be mis-understood, then it's okay for other people to share that same value, to not be misunderstood, whether you agree with them or not. Everyone wants to know that when a negative goes against them, that negative should be based on what they are actually trying to represent, not some misconception about that.

When this happens to me, I think I have to demonstrate that I do in fact, completely, and accurately understand as precisely as possible what they are thinking, because it is that precise understanding that legitamizes my critique of their position. There is no legitimacy in a critique without that. I cannot authentically criticize that which I don't understand, so if it is perceived that I do not in fact know why, how, and to what extent another person thinks they are right and actually validate whatever degree of validity they do actually have, they are correct in claiming that I don't have an authentic criticism of their position.

I know your personal experience is truly a valid central understanding of the issue, but why do you think that your friend thinks that she is right too?

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Response to patrice (Reply #12)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:46 PM

18. I do hear you. I think if we start from a place of common ground we might make some headway.

We both agree that the adults who permitted and encouraged the consumption of alcohol are criminals. That should never have happened.

And we understand and agree that the promulgation of football culture and its attendant privileges and entitlements set this up to happen.

The tricky part is going to be breaking the cognitive link between girl drinking ---> OK to have sex with her because she did a dumb thing. And the other cognitive link between boy drinking ---> can't control himself.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #18)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:39 PM

31. Exactly! And one thing that, to me, always breaks what appears to be a dead-heat between two points

of view is the extent to which "plausible deniability"/dishonesty ((overt or covert/manifest or latent)) is more powerful, more universally effective, for one position than it is for another. This is the cultural context that you mention. That is, if it's easier to lie or be mistaken and get away with it for one position than it is for another, that weighting should be held to a higher analytic standard.

The reason that is important is because, failing any other form of determinacy, that is, a rape question is, for one reason or another, unavoidably indeterminate, we should risk error ONLY on behalf of justice, so ((maybe not in a court of law, but at least between people in their own lives)) any relevant power positions should be recognized honestly for what they are and handicapped accordingly.

There could still be mistakes ((under somekind of unusual circumstances some <100 pd female could rape, and otherwise take advantage of, some muscle bound guy twice her size because he was "confused" or didn't know how to stop her)), but at least the probability of mistakes is being addressed by trying to talk about how context, especially old, very and powerful, cultural contexts, make certain interpretations/understandings much more likely than others.

People are still going to resist that, even lie to avoid it, but at minimum we can claim the necessity of TRYING to honestly recognize what could be happening.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #18)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:50 PM

37. we haven't broken those cognitive links here at DU, even on this thread there's plenty of blame for

 

the victim.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #37)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 11:20 PM

88. + 1,000,000,000,000

Word.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:39 PM

13. The Problem Begins With The Usual Quip "She asked for it"

They make it sound like she put in ad in the paper. But they also say the same with what she wore(too tight,too short,too little,) what time of the day it was,how she should not have been at that place at that time. Every comment gives the rapist another excuse. It seems no matter what she does from having a job in a place where she could be chosen as a victim(be it an almost all male office to working as a bar tender) it's always going to be her fault. It's time all these excuse makers shut up and start thinking of the violent act that the woman did not deserve. As you said you are forced to live this scene in your mind every day of your life. Certain occasions,places people or things may trigger another memory attack. It does not go away no more then molestation as a child. The guilt, the shame is always part of you. Victims of rape(men too--far too many don't think of them in this way) should not have to be reminded every day by those who speak without thinking,who obviously have never had such horrors happen to them. Old Hester Prynne may have had that scarlet letter on her chest but today society seems to almost enjoy putting the blame on the victim and not on the accused. I think you did right. If you didn't it would be like an onion(in reverse) where each insult,each hurtful comment adds another layer. It's time for all victims to be able to shed those layers of hurt and bad memories and be able to be more like everyone else. You can't undo what was done but you sure as hell can try to prevent more hurt by those who have no idea what you are talking about.

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Response to grilled onions (Reply #13)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 11:22 PM

89. + 1,000,000,000,000

Again, Word!

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:40 PM

14. You were right to call her out . . .

. . . don't beat yourself up over it.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:42 PM

16. hopefully she is doing some serious thinking too.

 

but if not, it's out of your hands - you delivered the message it is now up to her to figure the rest out herself.

Thanks so much for doing this, people need to speak out against ignorance.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:42 PM

17. I would like to say one thing in response to her remarks...

...sympathizing with those poor, poor rapists who will (may) have to live with being classified as sex offenders for the rest of their lives, and then talking about slutty girls who go to parties and drink:

Well, when lowlife boys go to parties and drink and don't control themselves, what can they expect to have happen?

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #17)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:01 PM

75. ^^^^THIS^^^^^

Yes, those lowlife boys who go to parties and drink and don't control themselves, deserve all the consequences that they get (including being classified as sex offenders for the rest of their lives).

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:53 PM

20. Don't feel bad--she deserved it

Anyone who can say that a girl deserved to be raped because she was "slutty" should be shot. I don't care if your friend is making strides to be better, she deserved to get her ass kicked on this one.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:58 PM

21. Update: VINDICATION!

Co-worker just popped into my office to offer me a hug, apologize, and say the sweetest words: "I never looked at it that way. Thank you."

One mind at a time, dear friends.

And I thank my fellow DUers for all the wonderful, warm, and wise words.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:08 PM

22. Yay for vindication!

I'm so glad she came around...

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:28 PM

25. Thanks for letting us know.

It restores my faith in humanity...a little.

Good work!

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:33 PM

27. sometimes it take tough love to sink through the bs

great job

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:38 PM

30. Sometimes you have to snap at people.

It isn't the same to say that you feel passionately about something, as it is to let someone know that you are passionate about it with your tone of voice and emotion.

I figured you did the right thing in the first place. It is especially effective if you are normally calm and collected.

Friends will always forgive you anyway. Especially if you don't abuse the 'right to snap' card.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:43 PM

33. could it be because it's something that happened to you and she knows you

how she tried to say your case was different from the other girl who was raped but it really wasn't. sometimes it takes something happening to someone you know or care about for people to see things as they are.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:43 PM

34. One mind at a time is good.

Now let's try working on the rest of the "minds" out there.

To you, lapislzi.
and a to us all.
Thank you for your OP!

sheshe

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:09 PM

41. Great..such a relief. .. I feel so sorry the girl...just wanted to check was she

screened for drugs? I'm wondering whether she was given a so called date rape drug...

Another hug for you.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:13 PM

43. Sounds like a young lady who knows which side her bread is buttered on

 

She made a calculation that apologizing to you was more cost-effective than letting the conflict fester. But she deeply resents having to do it, and will carry a little sting of that with her until she feels she has enough power to act on it.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #43)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:57 PM

73. Well that's OK.

We know where we stand. I occupy a much different niche in the company than she does, and if the rubber met the road, she would be the one to come off the worse for it.

She is not especially well-liked, is known for being a whiner and not a team player.

On the other hand, I'm the one with the couch in my office who spent literally hours and hours and hours after Sandy Hook hugging and crying with my colleagues. They don't call me "Mom" around the office for no reason.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #73)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:53 PM

84. "She is not especially well-liked, is known for being a whiner and not a team player"

 

Wow, you're quite the mentor.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #84)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:49 AM

106. Hey, I have done my part with this woman

For the better part of 10 years. I wrote the recommendation letters when she wanted to go back to school. Nearly every day she comes to my office with some new "problem:" the woman in the next cubicle talks on the phone too much; the new hires are too noisy and "cliquey;" the atmosphere isn't "corporate" enough (seriously); she is not being given sufficient responsibility; why don't we have a company picnic.

I listen to this on an almost constant basis and always try to offer constructive suggestions. Three times I've been instrumental in helping her move her workspace because she didn't get along with her neighbors. I bought her a pair of headphones because she can't stand the noise of people conversing. I can't do more than I've done, and I know well who she is. She chooses to stay at a company that really doesn't suit her temperament. In as kind a way as possible, I have tried to suggest that she might be happier in a larger or more regimented workplace. Her decision to stay is hers, and I support that. But I know that she will always find something or someone that doesn't suit.

And don't even get me started on her stream of personal problems and her pet hate, which is people on public assistance.

This is hard to convey on a message board where I was trying to make a larger point, but, yes, Alcib, I mentor and I mentor well.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #106)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:33 AM

115. It sounds to me as if you actively dislike this person

 

In my experience, that doesn't make for a great mentoring relationship.

You seem to be perfectly willing to catalog her perceived faults. Also, not a great sign in a mentor.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #115)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:28 PM

133. As you wish.

You're right. I don't particularly like this woman. I don't know why she chose me as a mentor, but as a professional, I did my best to assist her in her efforts--whatever they were, leaving my personal feelings aside. She is a competent professional and does good work, despite an attitude that does not always fit in with our company ethos. We have some shared history as domestic violence survivors, and that may be the reason she trusts me.

I have always praised her efforts and encouraged her in the directions that I thought would be to her benefit. She has an excellent work ethic and as a worker is an asset to the organization. She's overcome a lot in life, and I give her credit for it.

I also try to look at the big picture of our company and how she fits in it. I don't have to like her sanctimony in order to help her professionally. It doesn't work for me, and it really doesn't work in our workplace. If she chooses to stay, that's up to her, and I will continue to give her the best advice I can to help her cope in an atmosphere that she admittedly does not like. Despite what I might think personally, I've never said, "you know, you might be happier at Citibank across the street." I've tried to offer work-arounds that will assist her in coping with her particular discomforts with our workplace environment. (For example: if she doesn't like gossip, she should really avoid the coffee area first thing in the morning. Since conversation and ambient noise is a problem for her, I bought her headphones. I don't know how you could interpret that as anything but supportive. I'm not going to go to 30 people, most of whom are not my direct reports and tell them not to have conversations during the day because noise bothers M. I have spoken to my direct reports about this and they respect it.)

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #106)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:45 PM

120. You must be an absolute saint! Your response was perfect.

I am sure that she and all your other colleagues know that you are honest, kind, and caring. She particularly knows that you are kind and caring to her. I imagine that most of the political conversations you have you are quite calm and factual. So, she has a context in which to understand your expression of genuine emotion.

Facts usually cannot get through the emotional blocks of conservatism. Recent studies support this. I think conservatism often springs from that most powerful of emotions - fear. If a person blames a victim, they are often exercising a false emotional defense. They don't realize it, but they are pretending that if they do not go to parties where drinking occurs, if they do not wear short skirts, etc. they will be safe. If they can find some excuse or "explanation" for why something bad happened to someone else, they can pretend they will never be victimized, never be poor, never lose their health, etc.

Sadly, it may be only when something happens to them or to someone with whom they are already close, that their empathy can break through that wall of fear. Yes, Senator Portman, you, too, may know someone who is homosexual. Yes, Congressman Kirk, you, too, may suffer a stroke.

Your genuine emotional response, in the context of the thoughtful, caring person she knows you to be, was probably the only thing that could have gotten through to her. Like I said - Perfect.

P.S. Your company sounds great! How do I apply?!

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #84)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:25 PM

122. Are honesty and compassion mutually exclusive?

No doubt, most people are indifferent, unkind, or actively cruel to people whom they do not like. Certainly most groups are unkind, if not vicious, to those who do not fit. Would it not be a better world if we all tried a little harder to be kind to everyone, including those with whom we do not get along so well?

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #43)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:05 PM

77. I have to say that I think you're right.

There's something quite a bit off about how the relationship with co-worker and the conflict was presented. I couldn't imagine myself in either role, re any issue.

I've learned from people in odd ways. One memorable instance was when I was in my 20's, at university and talking with a young woman who, it turns out, was very well traveled among interesting circles as her parents were part of some ambassadorial entourage. I said something typically clueless about Mao, after which I learned that she had lived several years in China and what she said was simply this: Mao made sure the people were fed. I was taken aback and to be honest, didn't understand, and had nothing to say, but what she said stayed with me when so much else didn't. What makes the exchange stand out was both her matter of factness and non-judgmentality. I'm quite sure that if there were any trace whatever, however implicit, of a request for apology, or acquiescence to a politically superior view, I wouldn't remember a damned thing. Not a thing.

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Response to delrem (Reply #77)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:55 AM

107. Can you explain further, and I will do my best to clarify.

Admittedly our relationship is unusual, and it came about because when she was new at the company I recognized immediately that she was in an abusive relationship. She almost lost an eye when her partner beat her up. I allowed her the space to open up to me, and she trusted me for that.

As time passed, she came to me with personal and professional issues. I am older, and maybe just a little bit wiser. Just because we share a past as domestic violence survivors doesn't mean we're going to see eye to eye on everything. Her background has shaped a somewhat conservative world view. Generally I don't challenge that, except on big things like the one I described in my OP.

If something else in my description seems "off," I will do my best to explain.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:14 PM

44. Aw, that's so good to hear.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:19 PM

45. A great thread of optimism to start the weekend! Thanks!

 

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:16 PM

52. Friendly advice: Take a page from Confucius, watch your back

 

She's probably googling new jobs or scheming to get yours. These fights never end well.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #52)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:01 PM

74. Her googling to get a new job would actually be a good thing for her.

She has a corporate mindset and doesn't thrive well in our freewheeling atmosphere. Most people here are a little nutso, and I see her lips purse when someone strides past wearing fake nose and glasses or doing the Ministry of Silly Walks. (Yes, this happens on a daily basis, or someone bursts into an aria with obscene words substituted. Or something.)

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 12:52 AM

93. Excellent...

...that is great to hear. You are right, one mind at a time on issues like this.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:19 AM

99. I posted my reply at the bottom before I read this. Congrats to you and your coworker!

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:21 AM

110. Accept the apology, but watch your back. nt.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:12 PM

23. My parents had an elderly neighbor that was raped

About 10 years ago. Raped in her home by a young man living up the road. I don't think she was being "slutty".

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Response to Blue Gardener (Reply #23)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 04:22 PM

129. I was raped when I was 8 years old

I wasn't being slutty. Really, I wasn't.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:26 PM

24. I heard a story some years ago

 

that when Golda Meier was heading up Israel, there was a problem about women being raped. She established a curfew. It applied to men only. When asked why not apply it to women, she said, "It's the men who are doing the raping."

I have no idea if it's true, but it ought to be.

While I get incredibly frustrated that young women will go out and drink and put themselves in a vulnerable position, NOTHING justifies rape.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #24)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:06 PM

39. omg. I love that story true or not. It's the principle of the thought.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:28 PM

26. Tired of hearing about rape culture? Guess what. I'm tired of living in it. So very tired.

 

this.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:35 PM

28. Actually...

I'm not a fan of sex-offender registries. I don't like life-long punishments after someone serves his time. If the offender remains dangerous, then s/he should be imprisoned. But after serving the sentence and probation, one should have a clear slate.

Alternatively, all convicted felons should have to inform their neighbors of their offenses. I'd like to know if my neighbor had a robbery conviction.

The question in this case is whether these kids are likely to reoffend. I would think not. But if professionals think they are, then they should not be outside of prison.

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Response to RudynJack (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 02:19 AM

94. +1 I thought we had done away with the Scarlet Lettering of people long ago.

It appears it has made a come back and its use continues to grow. Nobody should be labeled for life and should be free to begin anew after serving their sentence. If they are a real danger to society, they should not be released.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:40 PM

32. I was telling a conservative relative about rape in the military.

Should have realized they'd come back with, "A woman that surrounds herself with men knows what she's getting into." It's no wonder that teabaggers with messages like rape being an act of God or a blessing resonate with these Troglodytes. There was a time before the right-wing echo chambers started brainwashing these weak-minded people that they were almost human. Now, they think letting their kids eat junk food is good, being intelligent is bad, polluting the planet is God's will and that inventing a car that goes 70 miles to the gallon is a stupid idea.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:45 PM

35. I served on a jury a couple of summers ago

on a rape case.

Both victim and rapist spoke only Spanish so an interpreter was used throughout the trial. I mention this because it removed the emotion from the trial and left us pretty much with only cold hard facts.

The woman was married. Her husband was living in Mexico. She started up a friendship with a mechanic after bringing her car in for numerous problems. She began flirting with the mechanic, cultivating a relationship, until he offered to do some of the work at a discount. She continued to lead him on over the following months - going out to dinner with him, to the point of hugging and kissing. He ended up working on her car for free.

She was using him for free car repairs. He was letting her, thinking the relationship was more.

When the rape occurred, the mechanic thought they were boyfriend and girlfriend. He invited her over to the house where he rented a room. When she accepted the invitation he thought they were finally going to have sex. In the meantime the woman's husband had arrived from Mexico and she claims she went to the mechanic's house/room to break up with him.

Once they were alone in the mechanic's room he made the move on her. When she denied him he got angry and tried to force himself on her. He blocked the door when she tried to escape. He shoved her onto his bed and held her down. She was afraid he would kill her so she stopped fighting and let him rape her.

It was strange because both their stories were pretty much the same. She didn't deny the way she used him. He didn't deny having sex with her. But he claimed that because she stopped fighting he thought it was ok.

There was no one on the jury who liked this woman by the time all the testimony was heard. Several people thought she deserved what she got. It took three days to convince these people that no matter how despicable the woman behaved she didn't deserve to get raped. One old white dude held out the longest with all kinds of excuses. He didn't hold a gun to her head or a knife to her throat so it couldn't be rape. But what it really boiled down to, he thought she deserved it.

We found him guilty of all charges except premeditated rape. None of us believed he had planned to rape her that day.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:56 PM

38. If she looks up to you...

 

your righteous indignation may make her think about her position. I once held a very stupid opinion on a subject, and my stepmother, who is a very smart person, asked me if I was stupid to be thinking that way. At first I was hurt, as I respected her opinion. Once I got over that, I thought long and hard about my position. I talked with her again, told her that I wasn't stupid, but I had been ignorant and that I was fixing that. Sometimes hard truths can be wake up moments.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:10 PM

42. Don't feel bad

if she wants to play in the cess pit you can't do anything about that. And I would say she has never really overcome her biases - she has just covered them up.

Rape is rape regardless of the circumstances - why some women feel that it is the victims' fault is beyond me, but I believe they have some unresolved issues and are refusing to acknowledge them.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:20 PM

46. Glad to hear it all worked out in the end.

 

You help expand her mindset.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:33 PM

48. This is why places like DU are vital. Keep on fighting the good fight.

Haters and ideologues love to spout. I see it every day and read it in local opinion pages on every imaginable issue. There is no sense of shame and often tend to be apathetic towards victims of EVERYTHING. If they aren't pushed back, they will win the day. And what would that say about our nation? And about liberal causes?



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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:08 PM

50. OK, I'm a "child of the sixties," which doesn't mean things were wild and promiscuous in most of the

Without going into details, the wildest girl in our dorm in the mid-sixties, came back after a then illegal abortion and was virtually bleeding to death, Her "Christian" roommate was kind enough to let another girl know before taking herself off to sleep elsewhere and those of us who checked in on her overruled her in telling our housemother and calling an ambulance. This was not the result of a rape. Similar mores nearly fifty years later, are untenable.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:14 PM

51. Forget about it...

... and whatever you do, don't apologize. Just go on like you never discussed it with her. The reason you reacted to her like that was because it brought all the feelings back, not to mention the fact that she has never been raped and has absolutely no idea how you must have felt. She was unable to empathize with the girl who was so brutally gang raped, after they evidently slipped something in her drink to knock her totally out for a long period of time. I'll even go one further. If she has no empathy with that young girl in Steubenville, she's probably a sociopath herself. If she ever brings up anything remotely controversial again, just smile and tell her you'd rather not discuss it and walk away. Forget about it...

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:17 PM

53. I simply would have answered

"Drunken, slutty BOYS."


rocktivity

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:23 PM

54. There are all kinds of ways you could have talked to her about this. Sadly, you would probably have

gotten nowhere even then.

Don't beat yourself up.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:32 PM

56. Any appology for these criminals

undermines and lesson that could be learned from this tragedy. People look for ways to exonerate themselves from guilt and responsibility and all it takes are a few to take the side of the guilty to give credence to other perpetrators. I have absolutely nothing positive to say about those rapists. I have absolutely no reason to try to find "good" in them. The only good that could be had from this situation is that there could be a deterrent or a lesson learned that would stop people from committing atrocities against any human being. But if there are people who choose to apologize or belittle the acts of these men or to try to point even the slightest hint of responsibility away from those perpetrators, the lessons are lost.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 07:51 PM

57. You're human, you get to react.

However, she deserves an apology along with being asked if she really thought the "slutty girl" decided to get up that morning and go be raped, half conscious, by a bunch of guys who wouldn't go out with her ordinarily. Ask her if she really thinks the girl wanted to be filmed going through it.

Tell her you know she wants to think if she dresses right and doesn't go out after dark and never drinks unless she's home alone that she doesn't have to be afraid of rape, but that just isn't the case. Rapists don't care about any of that stuff, they're into violence, control and humiliation.

Tell her CNN got the coverage wrong and the way they got it wrong is part of the problem, that victims are always blamed for it, unlike other crimes.

But do apologize for flying off the handle. Just don't let her off the hook.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 08:35 PM

60. What the hell is wrong with people?

 

The way it seems to go is it's okay for a woman to enjoy sex but ONLY if she keeps it a secret. Once it gets out that she has EVER enjoyed sex that makes her fair game.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 08:43 PM

61. It is understandable to see you upset.

How could any woman defend the behavior of a rapist?

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Response to PM Martin (Reply #61)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:49 PM

71. Internalized misogyny.

The vast majority of women learn to hate themselves during adolescence. Failing to do so means choosing to see how much the world hates you, and that sucks.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:11 PM

64. Not enough people are verbally dope-slapped. Good on you for doing it. nt

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:26 PM

66. Hmmm...I'm normally against heated political debates at work,

but blaming the women for being raped is so fucked.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

68. She expressed "dismay that rapists would be classified as sex offenders."

I have trouble understanding that. What does she think "sex offender" means?

Survey says: rapist--number one answer.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

69. Rape culture shaming is okay.

I don't know how else we'll ever change it.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:05 PM

76. I'm so sorry for

the rape you experienced by a sexual predator, lapiszi.

Your co-worker is way out of line blaming any woman or girl for her attack by a rapist. I don't care if the woman is an "escort".. if she says "No" then it's no. And, only asshole rapists take advantage of someone who is passed out.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:33 PM

82. Survivors need to quit the fuck apologizing for denouncing rape-in any form.

 

So the conservative wanna be was shocked out of her denial by your blatant reality based comments-so the fuck what? Like denial helps anyone?

Rape is a fact of life. We want to eliminate it. That means intellectual surgery among some. Too bad so sad. If it prevents so much as one rape, her hurt feelings are irrelevant.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 10:58 PM

85. People who have never been raped

Find it hard to understand. They know nothing of the fear we have experienced, the guilt and blame we place on ourselves. The shame we feel years afterward. And sometimes the little mementos we are left with (mine is a 15 year old). I would not feel bad for snapping. She should keep her damned mouth shut! At least until she learns that that victim is someone's daughter. Someone's granddaughter. It seems that for certain types of people, until it happens to them or someone they love, it's not real, but for those of us who struggle everyday to put those thoughts and memories outside of our minds, this is our reality. I'm so sorry she even spoke of such bullshit. Pure bullshit.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 12:23 AM

91. Don't feel bad I do it all the time.

After all when you deal with fools and idiots why worry about there feeling they don't worry about another person feeling if they did they would act different. As to teaching them most of them can't learn anyways if they could learn they would have already. Not nice of me but then I have been dealing with people like this for far to long!!

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 12:41 AM

92. I appreciate you feel you might have handled it differently BUT.....

 

based on your post it is clear her view of the world is one in which men are the victims of female beguiling and not the perpetrators of violent crimes against women.

I don't care if the woman was half-naked and rubbing her hot body against a guy....it is still no license to engage in sex when and if she is not able to communicate her consensus or not.

We are a sick society that has to teach women how not to be raped rather than teaching men NOT TO RAPE.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:18 AM

98. You feel terrible, because you were raped. And because society says "Get over it"

but you will never get over it. Does society tell a victim of a nonsexual beating to "get over it"? Hell, no. Society says "You have a right to be angry." Well, rape victims have a right to be angry---and if you feel guilty about getting angry, it is because of the social pressure placed upon you. Victims of childhood abuse have the same problems in our society.

You did exactly the right thing in telling about your experience. The only way to make people see the truth about rape is to make them understand that it does not happen just to "other people". (That is denial). It happens to people just like themselves. Once they identify with the victim, they are able to mature.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:46 AM

104. I would not feel terrible in the least ... sometimes what you did is what it takes, and in

effect, it was a teaching moment.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:48 AM

105. No need to apologize for an honest reaction

sometimes that's the best "teaching moment."

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:55 AM

108. ?

"when slutty girls go to parties and drink"? So girls must pay a consequence for their actions? But when slutty guys go to parties and drink, that is different? There should be no consequence for them? Just doesn't seem right.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:06 AM

109. The victims clothing is as meaningful to the conversation as their eye color

 

I don't care if the girl victimized in Ohio was the town bicycle, no one has the right. drunk, high, wasted, sober, makes no difference.
they deserve far worse than being on a sex offender list.

people fucking blow my mind......

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:50 AM

116. They have the same reaction to any civil rights and discrimination - victim's fault always

plus I thought the rape victim stated she had medical tests which confirmed she was drugged in that case.

I did not follow the case too much so not sure but I thought I read that more than one time and it was payback for a girl they did not like .

Your rape was "different" just like they always say about people they know or personnel circumstances = part of their culture.
Well at least to your face that is what she says....

Sorry you had to hear that crap
Beware of more crap from her mouth/mind/lack of heart
take care

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 11:59 AM

117. When I was much younger I said something like your co-worker did and

someone like you jumped deep into my shit and it changed me. I realized I was wrong. I too was part of the rape culture without even knowing it.

So I'd like to thank you for doing that.

It took me decades to get past feeling it was my fault that a pedophile raped me when I was six. You never know if your co-worker may be reacting to her own past.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #117)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:37 PM

134. You are so right, and thank you for sharing.

My colleague is a domestic violence survivor. She escaped from a horrific relationship with a man who would doubtless have killed her had she stayed. She is a strong woman and I admire her for that.

But sometimes people forget that they didn't get out of those situations all by themselves ("you didn't build that." Yes, she had to make the decision and do the heavy lifting. But many people along the way (myself included, who pulled her aside one morning and said "you don't get that kind of eye damage from falling out of bed. You're not fooling anyone" helped make that decision and its subsequent actions possible. There's a lot that goes into a successful escape from an abusive relationship.

I am so sorry for your terrible experience. All I can offer is virtual love and virtual hug:

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)


Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 03:53 PM

127. You have nothing to feel bad about.

Co-worker is insensitive, and obtuse. I hope that your mentoring and helping to her in the workplace has helped to make her a better person. Obviously, she needs help in that department.

As for everyone else blaming the victim, I don't care how intoxicated or impaired someone is; that doesn't justify, excuse or provide any sort of reason for abusive treatment by others. You'd be the first one to complain if you'd been treated like this after you'd gotten impaired.

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:32 AM

146. always be carefull about workplace relationships

 

your feelings are more than understandable, and she probably was just bleeting something she heard that didnt mean much to her, but meant a lot to you.

smooth things over, and be more carefull in the future - there are enough landmines in the workplace as it is

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Response to lapislzi (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:00 AM

148. K&R, Good for you!

She deserved what she got. There is no reason to feel any remorse over it.

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