18 yr old Male with 14 yr old female - DU would be clamoring for jail time

[FreakinDJ]

This whole conversation of proper age equations and "They attended High school together" VERY disingenous and hypocritical.

She kept the girl out over night without her parents permission. If it was a18 yr old male doing the same thing the DA would be considering kidnap charges and no one would campaign on his behalf across the internet or accusing the parents of bias.

[ZombieHorde]

1. You're a DUer. Why would you be clamoring for jail time? nt

[FreakinDJ]

3. I didn't - and the scenerio I described has come up on DU before

and not one ounce of sympathy was bestowed on the make who was about to serve time and become a registered sex offender for the rest of his life

[Ms. Toad]

57. Links, please.

People keep saying that, and no one has been able to provide any links to a high school (senior-freshman) romance between a male and female in which DUers supported a felony conviction and jail time.

[LuvNewcastle]

2. I wouldn't be "clamoring for jail time."

While I don't particularly like it, I wouldn't want to see anyone get jail time.

[Warpy]

22. Nope. I remember too clearly what things were like when I was 14

I was a late bloomer, but my friends were all active and it was seen as a great coup to date a senior.

ASSuming stuff about fellow DUers is a loser's game, as the OP is beginning to demonstrate.

[LuvNewcastle]

33. DUers go off on tangents some times; I'm as guilty as

anyone else here. We all have our quirks and certain things that tick us off. But by and large, DUers are good at seeing gray areas in issues, a lot better than the general public.

[Warpy]

71. They also possess jerking knees

especially when both sexes tend to go all Mama Bear over something.

[jzola]

54. I too remember 14

I'm old. I had no problem dating eighteen year olds---It was cool. Most fourteen year old girls, that I've known, are pretty sophisticated. Some people are predators and some are not. The important thing is for parents to help teach the difference. Predators are easy to spot. I think 18 is way to soon to destroy someones life as a sex offender. High School kids are sexual---be real. Way to much judgement over this issue. Make sure kids are educated and protected from getting hurt--ie birth control and condoms.

[Warpy]

70. That's why maybe 21 or so should be the age cutoff, not 18

21 year olds are still stupid, but they've got some respect for consequences.

18 year olds? Nope.

[BainsBane]

4. There is a clear double standard when it comes to statutory rape

What is unusual about this case is that a woman is even charged. If the younger person had been male, I suspect she would not have been charged.

Think of all the cases of female teachers having sex with their male students and how the public reacts. When Debra Lefavre was charged with statutory rape for sex with a minor, many people cited her beauty as supposed evidence that the boy couldn't have been bothered by the relationship. Studies show that such relationships are just as traumatic for boys as girls, yet the public reacts like the boy is lucky. I find it very troubling. The law should be applied equally, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

[davidpdx]

28. If we are referring to Kate

(I can't remember her last name) I think the whole thing is motivated by fact that the younger female's parents found out she was not straight. I have signed the petition that is going around and following the case.

[randome]

37. Does 'statutory rape' only apply to male/female relationships, then?

If yes, should it?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[BainsBane]

72. no, not according to the written law

but it is enforced more aggressively when the older party is male. That is not right.

[quinnox]

5. here we go

[dsc]

6. I suspect if the boy were black and the parents of the girl publicly said

I won't have my girl be a n-lover in court there would be quite a lot of sympathy for him. The parents of the 14 year old in the FL case are on record as having a huge problem with their daughter being gay which makes me really suspicious that if this had been a boy there would be no case.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Doesn't matter - once you help them sneak out of the house

and keep them overnight - your in serious trouble - hetro or gay

[dsc]

9. not if the parents don't press charges

and I have to be suspicious of the motives of these parents.

[FreakinDJ]

12. the motive would be to seperate an Adult from a Child

[dsc]

13. this particular set seems to have a big problem having a gay daughter

I strongly suspect that if tomorrow a 19 year old boy were this 14 year old's latest fancy they would be thrilled. I admit, I could be wrong, but I have my doubts.

[Ms. Toad]

58. And how many of your 18 year old classmates

Did you really think of as adult when you were in high school (other than, perhaps, in the sense that they could buy alcohol or cigarettes)? How many of those statutory-adults were treated as adults by any of the teachers in your school?

[magical thyme]

34. the parents had to press charges to avoid becoming criminals themselves

This has already been discussed elsewhere on DU.

The parents were notified of the sexual relationship by a third party (IIRC, someone from the school). If the parents didn't go to the police and the other person or the school did (and people from the school likely were required to report), the parents would have been in serious legal trouble.

[dsc]

38. did the third party make them utter homophobic non sense?

[magical thyme]

39. I haven't seen what homophobic non sense (sic) you refer to...

I do know that the early reports on this were filled with misinformation and lies.

Perhaps you could provide a link to a reputable source detailing the nonsense?

[dsc]

40. they said, among other things that they wouldn't have a homosexual daughter

[magical thyme]

41. you forgot the link. nt

[dsc]

43. it has been reported her and elsewhere over and over

if you don't know that, that isn't my fault, it is yours.

http://www.newser.com/story/168196/homophobia-drove-statutory-rape-charge-mom.html

but here you go.

[magical thyme]

45. a libelous claim by the mother of the accused is hardly a reliable source

Because the mother of the accused claims in her blog that the victim's parents are homophobic does not make it so.

The mother of the accused also claimed that the victim was 15 and her daughter 17 at the time. The legal documents, however, prove they were 18 and 14 at the time, and show the mother of the accused to be a liar.

I saw those claims making the rounds, but would not expect any reasonable person to consider them a reliable source, especially after the legal documents proved her to be lying with other provable facts. The claim is hearsay at best, libel at worst.

If you do not understand the difference between somebody spreading lies in a misguided attempt to protect their daughter from the legal consequences of her behavior and a reliable source for a quote from the victim's parents (eg an interview by a reporter with the victim's parents), then that is your fault; not mine.

[dsc]

47. and of course the victims parents wouldn't lie

no they are pure as the driven snow. Give me an ever loving break. Gay people know discrimination when we see it, and this is that. The fact is had this been a white boy those parents would be thrilled.

[magical thyme]

49. you know no such thing. You still have not provided a link to your supposed quote.

The victim's parents may or may not be homophobic. We have no proof either way.

First you've claimed there was a quote. Now you're claiming you "know" because you're gay. Whatever. There is a vast difference between a reliable source of a specific quote and "knowing" because you, well, just know.

As to the victim's parents being "thrilled" if it had been a white boy, well, anything is possible but I seriously doubt it. Most parents are not "thrilled" to learn their teen sons have been potentially getting young teens pregnant. That has a way of leading up to paternity suits, child support, etc.

[Ms. Toad]

59. People say lots of things - it doesn't make them true.

Parents are not mandatory reporters in any state I am aware of, and they are not in Florida. (Page 4 lists mandatory reporters: http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/abuse/publications/mandatedreporters.pdf )

And, parents - in some instances - have the ability to permit their children to engage in behavior that is otherwise illegal by virtue of age (for example - in many states - alcohol consumption).

[magical thyme]

60. that certainly applies to Kaitlyn's parents

Who have lied about the ages and smeared the victim's parents on their blog.

As regards the publication you linked to, from page 2:

"Chapter 39 of the Florida Statutes (F.S.) mandates that any person who knows, or has reasonable cause to suspect, that a child is abused, neglected, or abandoned by a parent, legal custodian, caregiver, or other person responsible for the child's welfare shall immediately report such knowledge or suspicion to the Florida Abuse Hotline of the Department of Children and Families."

also from page 2:

"In 2012, House Bill 1355 was passed into law and shall be referred to as "Protection of Vulnerable Persons" Ch. 2012 155 of the Laws of Florida.  The bill adds to the current 
reporting requirements of 39.201, F.S removing the limitation that only "caregiver" 
abuse be reported to the hotline by requiring any person to report known or reasonably 
suspected physical or emotional abuse of a child by any adult person. The bill also 
requires any person to report known or reasonably suspected sexual abuse of a child by 
any person.  "

The first encounter took place in a school bathroom, and the victim's parents first learned of the sexual relationship from a school official or teacher. If the parents had not filed a complaint, they could have been reported for neglect by the school.

From page 4, mandated reporters:
School Teacher
School Official or Other School Personnel

What it looks like to me is that the school official took it to the parents to deal with, which the parents tried to do. It was only after their daughter ran away that they took it to the police.

Furthermore, House bill 1355 mandates that *any* person to report known or suspected sexual abuse of a child.

[Ms. Toad]

61. Re lies - pot, kettle. See my other post to you.

You might consider your own misstatements when you accuse people of lying.

[magical thyme]

66. oh, so now you actually are calling me a liar.

You may want to try actually reading the pamphlet you linked to.

I will repeat the critical quote for you:

In 2012, House Bill 1355 was passed into law...The bill also 
requires any person to report known or reasonably suspected sexual abuse of a child by 
any person.  The bill requires the central abuse hotline to accept any call reporting child 
abuse, abandonment, or neglect by someone other than a caregiver and to forward the 
concern to the appropriate sheriff’s office for further investigation.   The bill also states 
that  the knowledge and willful failure of a person, who is required to report known or 
suspected child abuse, abandonment, or neglect is elevated from a first degree 
misdemeanor to a third degree felony. As a result, the potential prison sentence is 
raised from 1 year to 5 years, and the potential fine is raised from a maximum of $1,000 
to a maximum of $5,000."

In other words, the failure of *any* person to knowledge or suspected sexual abuse of a child is a third degree felony.

As I stated earlier, the victim's parents were required by law to report the sexual abuse of their underage child.

Oh, and welcome to ignore.

 

[backscatter712]

63. "It's the law!" The cry of the authoritarian.

It doesn't matter that the law's fucking brain-damaged. The authoritarians demand obedience and shut their fucking ears off when they believe the law favors them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. + 1

[roughrider101]

84. Where are they on record?

The parents of the 14 year old in the FL case are on record as having a huge problem with their daughter being gay

What record? Where?

[bunnies]

8. When I was 18...

anyone my age would have been ridiculed to death by peers for even considering "dating" a 14 year old kid. In fact. freshmen didn't even attend the same school as us.

[Yo_Mama]

10. When I was in high school

Part of sex ed was a discussion of the legal age of consent in the state and what could happen to you if you ignored it, right along with the birds and the bees.

I think people are employing a double standard here. I think an 18 year old boy having sex with a 14 year old girl would be treated much more harshly.

I still don't think 18 year olds having sex with 14 year olds should automatically put them on the sex offender registry, but I don't think age of consent is going to be lowered to 14 precisely because most people do think that's too young in many cases for a full consent.

[Nevernose]

14. I teach high school

And my first two classes of the day are ninth through twelfth. I try to learn as little about their sex lives as possible, but I know enough to know that it's not uncommon.

Of course, none of them have ever seen a typewriter before or even heard of a rotary phone...the world is a different place.

[davidpdx]

27. If I was a high school teacher I'd probably not want to know anything either

I suppose there is a risk if you have a conversation with them even if they ask for help in some way. It would be a difficult position to be in in terms of wanting to help versus protecting yourself and your job.

[Ian David]

11. What if it had been Hitler with a unicorn? n/t

[madinmaryland]

19. Hitler would have head-butted Stalin killing him instantly, thus ending Communism. nt

[Dr. Strange]

80. Then the unicorn would have given birth...

TO A NARWHAL!! FUCK YEAH!!

[Silent3]

15. What if an 18 y/o male took a 14 y/o female to Olive Garden?

And what if there were a pitbull in the back seat?

[madinmaryland]

20. There has to be some breast-feeding going on also! nt

[sweetloukillbot]

26. On a bicycle...

[justiceischeap]

31. And a pit bull. nt

[Aerows]

36. And a 3D printed drone

can't forget that.

[marshall]

21. There would be high fives

It's the world we live in. Our job = change it or get unused to it.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. What?

From my understanding of things the 14 year old ran away from home and they gave her shelter.

For it to be kidnapping it would have been AGAINST this 14 year old's wishes, would it not?

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Kidnapping[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]The crime of unlawfully seizing and carrying away a person by force or Fraud, or seizing and detaining a person against his or her will with an intent to carry that person away at a later time.

The law of kidnapping is difficult to define with precision because it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Most state and federal kidnapping statutes define the term kidnapping vaguely, and courts fill in the details.

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

[alp227]

24. Too bad the 14 year old wasn't emancipated.

She can't just go out anywhere she wants w/o her parents' prior approval!

[LostOne4Ever]

69. True

But I still don't think it arises to kidnapping unless she was forced to go somewhere against her will as according to the link.

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. She didn't keep her anywhere. One kid called another kid for a ride when she

ran away from home. Whatever was said/not said between them is not public knowledge at this point...so we'd be speculating on the "kept her out" part.

That said, as the mother of a teenaged boy, this part of "DU" would not be clamoring for jail time. These cases are pled down all the time. And this is ridiculous.

[madinmaryland]

18. 18 yr old Male with 15 yr old female...

There is actually 2 years and 4 months age difference between the kids. There is a two year class difference also, in high school (Senior vs. Sophomore) and attend high school together.

Does he go to jail, even though she is trying her damnedest to find a way over to his house?

[FreakinDJ]

29. In California - YES

[magical thyme]

50. 18 and 14 per the police affidavit

Depending on the DOB of the victim, there could be a 3+ year difference, but not a 2-year.

The accused's DOB is 8/14/94, with the sexual encounters starting before Christmas '12. So she was 18 years and 4 months at first sexual encounter.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/05/21/us/hunt-arrest-affidavit.html?_r=1&

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. would an 18 year-old male and 14 year-old male relationship be less acceptable than an 18 year-old

female and 14 year-old female relationship? I'm guessing it probably would.

[dballance]

53. I Think you're right.

I can say, anecdotally, that it seems easier for the public at large to accept a lesbian relationship than a gay male relationship. No matter what age the two females or males are.

Times are a changing though. You might be able to gin up this much controversy over two males in this similar situation. In fact, I'm almost certain it has already happened not that long ago. It didn't get covered by mainstream press though. I think for the possibility you mention, female/female relationships are easier for people to accept than male/male relationships. So the MSM can cover those without it being "too gay" so to speak.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. nope men are oppressed. lesbians are not.

alternate reality 101.

(i assumed you meant 14 year old female and 18 year old male as per op's great point)

[Douglas Carpenter]

74. no I am asking if today's society would accept a same sex relationship between an 18-year-old male

and a 14-year-old male - less or more than it would accept a same sex relationship between an 18-year-old female and a 14 year-old female. Of course lesbians are oppressed. But I am guessing that society would be less tolerant of a same sex relationship between an 18 year-old male and 14 year-old male.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. yeah i think you are right. sorry i was really being sarcastic towards the op. not you.

[booley]

25. No

No I wouldn't. Not if that was all there to the case (no abuse, no exploitation, ect)
Especially if said 18 year old had just turned 18.

It's not like turning 18 sets off a magical switch. In many states it's not even the age of consent. We just tend to think 18 because it's the age you can do porn in california.

[justiceischeap]

32. I think the fact that they are both high school students

is what makes the difference in this case. It isn't often we see older high school kids dating younger but it does happen. You could end up with a lot of kids having sex offender status when they aren't sex offenders at all. And I would say this if it were a separate gender couple.

This is a case of ultra-religious parents seeking retribution because the offender happens to be a young woman instead of a young man.

[magical thyme]

35. not for statuatory rape.

The 14 year old was a willing partner. She is below the age of consent, so it is statuatory rape.

I don't think DUers as a whole would be for jailing a foolish 18 year old that broke the law in such a circumstance, and I certainly wouldn't recommend such a harsh punishment for young man or young woman that the 18 year old in question is facing.

[Xyzse]

42. I don't know...

I think they make allowances for it if they have been together before the male reached the age of majority. Still, I think most of the things that happen are maybe 18 and 15+.

[LisaL]

44. Absolutely. Everybody here knows it.

Jail time, sex offender registry. The works.

[Celldweller]

46. correctamundo nt

[Pragdem]

48. We are insignificant dots on a speck of dust, floating in virtual infinity...

Let people that give consent fuck, for fuck's sake.

[bowens43]

51. Nonsense

[Iggo]

52. ...and trash this thread, too.

[dballance]

55. I really have to agree with you. Illegal is Illegal - period.

Except for the "clamoring for jail time" thing. I'd hope that DU would see this as an over-reaction in any case where the events were consensual. I don't mean "consent" in the legal sense. I mean in the human sense. At what age a person is mature enough to consent is a whole other topic.

In this case there were defined legal parameters that were broken. Acting as if kids don't realize those exist is a non-starter for me. We well knew in high school what day we turned 16 so we could get our driver's license. We knew what day we turned 18 so that we were "legal" for alcohol in the states around us and where we went on spring break. Knowing I could vote was a big deal to me but not so much for lots of others.

We well knew that a relationship with an under-age person was not legal. Sure, it went on all the time. Seniors dated freshmen and sophomores who were under-age all the time. Some under-age people are probably mature enough to date older people and some were not. Frankly, there are a lot of people of majority age who shouldn't be dating anyone because they're still immature.

We put a line in the sand at a certain age as "legal." We must abide by that or change it through legal means. Not ignore it and then get all upset when we're subject to the law. Yes, that does mean that on the day before your 18th b-day you're allowed and then on the day after your 18th b-day your not. I doubt too many people would complain they can buy a drink in a bar the day they're 21. Nope, I doubt you changed significantly over night at 18 or 21. But that's not the issue here. The issue is a law was broken.

This is a perfect example of why there should not be mandatory sentences. In a case like this we need judges to be able to have the flexibility to not call someone a "sex offender" and to give them an appropriate sentence whether it's two females, two males or a heterosexual couple involved.

Are the younger girl's parents biased because it was a lesbian relationship? Maybe they are. But are they any more biased and wrong than if they were just extremely religious and the older person was a male?

[backscatter712]

67. The law is fucking brain-damaged.

Only a true authoritarian would expect the discussion to stop when they repeat the mantra "The law is the law!" And they're always aghast when we refuse to shut up at that.

Fuck the law. This law ruins lives of good people. Anyone demanding this shitty law be upheld is a shitty person.

[dballance]

68. If you don't like the law then change it. Don't blame me for saying we should be law-abiding.

I agree the law is shitty. But it's the law like so many other shitty laws. You don't get to pick and choose laws anymore than all those sheriffs who want to pick and choose whether or not they want to enforce gun regulation laws. You don't get to "Fuck the law." If you think you should be able to "fuck the law" then please feel free to pass law enforcement officers while grossly exceeding the speed limit on the highway. Or drive so intoxicated that you cause an accident or just go ahead and flat out kill some one who pisses you off. Let me know how "fucking" the law works out for you then.

If you don't like a law then don't just come here on DU and call me shitty because I think we should obey laws. Go do something about it that's more difficult than typing. Get the shitty laws changed by your legislators. Or serve on a jury and provide jury nullification of a law.

Furthermore, please do not imply I'm a shitty person when you don't know me.

[Ms. Toad]

56. Nonsense.

Please provide a link to discussions on DU about similar situations with a mixed sex couple.

I have asked repeatedly - and no one who is asserting a double standard has been able to identify a single such situation (let alone a discussion with DUers calling for jail time).

That is because seniors dating freshmen happens routinely, and no one thinks anything of it - and likely no one even stops to ask the ages.

As for keeping the girl overnight - the girl ran away from home. That probably says a fair amount more about the relationship between the girl and her parents than it does about anything else.

[backscatter712]

62. Where's unrec when we need it? n/t

[MzShellG]

73. And imagine if the 18yr old was a black male and the 14yr old was a white female. nt

[Poll_Blind]

76. Oh hells yes. I'd like to see someone try to deny it with a straight face, too. nt

PB

[treestar]

77. I would not

To me it makes a difference they are both still in high school.

This law should be applicable only with a five year age difference.

[FreakinDJ]

81. You have a point - but in California the law states 2 yr age difference

Not my own 3 sons, but yes I have known young men here in California who were brought up on these same charges

[treestar]

83. Two years is way too close

As it has been said, these laws are meant to go after predators, not dating teenagers.

[Canuckistanian]

78. No, I wouldn't

The overnight thing is troubling, but NOT justification for bringing the blunt force of FULL sexual assault charges that would destroy this young woman's life.

And the young girl's parents seem hell-bent on punishing not because of the age difference, but because of the lesbian nature of the relationship.

If she had been dating the senior football captain, we'd never have heard of this story.

[JimDandy]

79. Not true.

I'm sick of all the statutory rape charges brought against teens by parents of the younger party. The parents have already lost the power struggle by this time and can end up losing their child's love in their zeal to separate the teen couple.

[NaturalHigh]

82. I don't know about jail time...

but the 18-year-old male would not be getting much sympathy here.