General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSince we have disposed of the 4th Amendment....
What would be the next Amendment you would like to see go?
You may want to think twice before you say the 2nd Amendment?
In my humble opinion, this has put a chill on not just our privacy rights but on all our rights as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. How many people will have to think twice before they speak for fear of it being taken the wrong way by some bureaucratic analyst? But not to worry, you may feel less free but you will be safe from the terrorists.
The Democratic Party owes a huge debt of gratitude to George W Bush. He was able to persuade the Democratic Party and the Democratic leaders of Congress that his way was the right way. We have now adopted the George W Bush policy of fighting terrorism. I feel bad for all those times that I criticized George W Bush. I failed to realize what a great leader he was?
zbdent
(35,392 posts)That Obama act more like George W. Bush than a "liberal commie extremist"?
treestar
(82,383 posts)tridim
(45,358 posts)Over on facebook Will Pitt is quoting Ari Fleisher as proof that Obama is the same as Bush.
He is the same in that he is the following President. Presidents have the same powers - people act like we elect a new king who can fashion his/her own new government!
kentuck
(111,052 posts)Since the NSA has been gathering all these phone records and emails, etc, do they exempt journalists in their searches? Or are journalists treated like everyone else? Do they know the journalists' sources? Or is it that they have this information but they would never look at it?
randome
(34,845 posts)Do you honestly not see the difference between then and now?
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kentuck
(111,052 posts)They still approved it. If they never disapprove, what difference does it make if they are told or not?? They are a rubber stamp. The effect is the same.
randome
(34,845 posts)But I'm not terribly concerned about it, either.
Get the stupid Patriot Act repealed. See if you can get enough people interested in that. I'm guessing you won't because most people, in the Internet Age, really don't care who has a list of phone numbers.
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premium
(3,731 posts)nothing more. How do we know that they're actually reviewing the requests for a warrant? They're secret, we, the people, never get to see how the process is done, which flies against everything I was taught in school.
There really is not difference except now the warrantless wiretapping has been made legal by a secret court that we never get to see.
My question is, who oversees this secret court? Are there any means to challenge it's determination on how warrants are issued?
randome
(34,845 posts)You can spend your life worrying about stuff like this without a solution. The checks and balances, for the most part, work.
Well, there's a FISA court, a judge and both Democratic and Republican review. That's enough checks and balances for me
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premium
(3,731 posts)When a warrant is usually issued, you, or your lawyer gets a copy of it, in the case of FISA, you never even know that a warrant was issued, and I mean never, because it's secret.
You may be comfortable with it, but my sense is that the American people are fired up about this newest revelation of how our govt is using a secret court to rubber stamp anything our federal intelligence agencies want.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)This shit is getting scary.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... or at least don't *own* where it is being kept. In the older days when that amendment was written, you "owned" your home, and therefore the government didn't have the right to come on your physical property to see private information contained on that property. If the facebook, google, amazon, carbonite, etc. "own" the disks that your private info is being stored, then there are many today that will say you don't have any way to claim that this information is private to be kept from the eyes of other private and governmental entities that own the places it is kept or have access to the places that it is kept, and they WANT that nebulousness to continue so that they can continue to break down the walls of privacy that we used to feel we have had.
Either as a part of "Move to Amend" movement, or as another effort that works alongside it (if it remains focused on shutting down corporate personhood and money as free speech), we need to have a constitutional amendment that clarifies the rules on how the principles of the fourth amendment apply in today's online world and future changes to technology, etc. too. Need a technical task force to help shape these rules in to realistic boundaries to allow for tech industry progress, but keeps restraints on what PTB can do with your private spaces in this arena.
Can't do this or no will to do this? Well in other areas where moneyed interests have a stake, they have adjusted the laws to the present times. Areas like copyright and patent law don't have the same sorts of restrictions and in effect have the opposite punch. People can't download copyright protected songs, etc. for fear of violating piracy laws, etc. if they aren't careful. In that case who owns the "container" of data such as MP3 files or downloaded videos, etc., doesn't *own* the usage of the content that is in that online information, and can be prosecuted or sued if this is misused. The same sort of energy should be applied to protect the virtual ownership of people's private information that hasn't consensually been made public at any time. People need to have a means to protect this, as long as they aren't using such privacy to protect wrongdoing (such as terrorism). And in those cases a FISA court or something similar needs to be in place to allow for timely and efficient but effective and law abiding warrants to search your private information. Such a process needs to be transparent, so that people know how they might be monitored for the purpose of public safety at least in principle even if not in detail (so that those terrorists can't know how to work around them).
randome
(34,845 posts)And there was a terrorist attack on the U.S.
This is what would happen: Republican outrage would be so intense and overwhelming, they would stay in power for ANOTHER 30 years.
If you want the Patriot Act repealed, go for it. I'm behind you, even. But someone having a list of phone numbers I've called? Pffft!
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