Do you support President Obama in regards to the recently disclosed NSA surveillance issue?

[Douglas Carpenter]

77 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, I support him on this matter
	19 (25%)
	No, I do not and cannot support him on this matter
	56 (73%)
	I have not yet decided whether I support President Obama on this matter
	2 (3%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. He'll no I don't. Mark it a 9, dude.

[The Magistrate]

2. Without Reservation, Sir

I do not like his enemies, and will never concede a fraction of a millimeter while a fight is on.

[truebluegreen]

4. The fact that Obama has enemies that we despise

doesn't make him right. It is not a zero-sum game.

Congress was wrong to pass this obsenity, Bush was wrong to sign it, Obama is wrong to employ it as he has.

It is just wrong. It needs to be repealed, or dramatically rewritten.

[Aerows]

6. ^this^

[The Magistrate]

8. It Is A Zero-Sum Game, Sir

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

I support President Obama.

I hate and despise his enemies.

"Which side are you on? Tell me, which side are you on?"

[truebluegreen]

16. Sorry. Don't accept the premise.

In this, the constitutional law professor is doing something that is legal, and wrong.

[The Magistrate]

18. Whether You Accept It Or Not, Sir, Is Of No Consequence: It Is What It Is

"That which, when you cease to believe in it, continues to exist, is real."

[truebluegreen]

22. Nice words, but not useful.

As I see it, the political fights worth fighting are the ones where the people win, not one political party or the other.

If this foofrah results in more public awareness and involvement and the badly-needed changes in the law, that's all to the good. If Obama wants to win this fight, for the good of the country and the party, he should step up and say yes, this is legal but there's a better way to do it and that's what we should do.

It would be sad if, after giving in to the Republicans on so many fronts, this is where he plans to stand his ground.

[Romulus Quirinus]

33. "Which side are you on? Tell me, which side are you on?"

Wait a minute, I've heard this somewhere...

[The Magistrate]

37. A Plagiarizing Johnny-Come Lately, Fella

[Romulus Quirinus]

89. I know the song.

I'm criticizing the sentiment. :/

[Douglas Carpenter]

129. Considering the aging Mr. Seeger's bacground - I have trouble imaging him singing in defense of

secretive government surveillance

[The Magistrate]

131. Qute Likely Not, Sir

Still, the exceedingly lame comment deserved a sharp smack, it is a great song, and his was the version I heard while young....

[Romulus Quirinus]

137. What is your problem?

[struggle4progress]

73. It's a song Florence Reese wrote for the '31 Harlan county coal strike:

[woo me with science]

47. Lesser of two evils! Circle the wagons! Defend Obama!

No, the administration has gone way too far. That tired old shit doesn't fly anymore.


"In the US, there is basically one party - the business party. It has two factions, called Democrats and Republicans, which are somewhat different but carry out variations on the same policies. By and large, I am opposed to those policies. As is most of the population."

Noam Chomsky

[The Magistrate]

48. "This Is The Best World Possible. Everything In It Is A Necessary Evil.'

[woo me with science]

52. How proud you must be

to own a copy of Bartlett's.

And how embarrassing that this is all you have to offer.

[The Magistrate]

54. One Apportions One's Effort, Sir, To the Value Of The Target

Cheap swill about 'lesser of two evils' and 'circle the wagons' cannot expect to draw more than a light dusting....

The thought in the quote ( from whom I have forgotten long since ) is actual a very interesting one, with roots in the philosophic currents of Late Antiquity, and the posited dichotomy between Spirit and Matter.

It is necessary here below to make some peace with the presence of evil, and even to discern gradations within it.

[woo me with science]

57. And "cheap swill about 'lesser of two evils' and 'circle the wagons'"

is *precisely* what you offered here, all your "philosophic currents of Late Antiquity" and "posited dichotomies between Spirit and Matter" notwithstanding.


You see, it's simply a matter of cutting through the authoritarian bullshit, no matter how vapid and self-important the wrapping may be. And I think Americans are just about at that point.

[The Magistrate]

60. You Really Do Think So, Sir?

"My god, man, slap yourself and think!"

[woo me with science]

71. Bwah! I will use my handy translator

from Magistrate-ese to plain English:

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits.

"Constitution schmonstitution! Don't you see the Red Team is out to get Obama? Shut up or you will depress the Democratic vote! Do you want President Palin? Stop talking about Obama! We need to talk about *Republican* evil!

In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation."

"The Red Team are Bad, Vermin, Corporate Evildoers! Obama is waaaaay better than any filthy Red! LESSER OF TWO EVILS! LESSER OF TWO EVILS!"

I support President Obama.

I hate and despise his enemies.

"Which side are you on? Tell me, which side are you on?"

"I love Blue! I hate Red! Circle the wagons! Choose a side! Are you a good Blue or a filthy Red?!"


The Third Way desperately, desperately needs new material.

[derby378]

100. Well said

Whose side am I on? The Bill of Rights, that's who. Doesn't matter how much the Third Way stamps their feet and insists we just go along to get along - we're right, and they're wrong.

[woo me with science]

134. "Whose side am I on? The Bill of Rights, that's who."

Well said.

[Melinda]

127. ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

[truebluegreen]

68. +1000

Whose side am I on? Noam Chomsky's.

[DrewFlorida]

55. Very well said, I agree 100%, the focus should be on jobs, good paying jobs, and income inequality!

[MjolnirTime]

77. Some are just too damned stupid to realize this is exactly what is happening.

Or maybe they just were on the wrong side all along.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. Lidsay Graham supports this policy, do you pause your despising of him?

My Democratic Senator is furious about this. But you stand with Graham? That's the side you are on. A side that is in fact chock full of some of the worst enemies of Obama, the people, and our Party.
What you are selling is bipartisan centrism affecting sternly partisan Democratic verbiage.
Love Songs For Lindsay. Bipartisanship! It's what's for dinner!
From DU's Pic of the Moment yesterday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017123522

[The Magistrate]

94. Even A Blind Chicken Pecks Up A Little Corn, Sir....

It does not bother me if the long odds against a man of his venality and malice taking a position agreeing with me catch up with him once in a while. I am sure he will hate himself in the morning, and try to craw-fish back into line with his pack.

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Ah, but whose side are you on? Lindsay's today.

All that verbiage does not counter the fact that you agree with him and take a position opposite of both of my Democratic Senators. To present this as partisan is absurd, you are bipartisan in this, many Republicans are in support of your position.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017123522

[The Magistrate]

101. It Does Not Bother Me To Repeat Myself, Sir

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the Confederacy, and their Birch-ite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

I support President Obama.

"I'm not tired...or bored...."

[mulsh]

113. I agree with your assessment and could not express it better.

I stand with President Obama and refuse to give his enemies an inch. His enemies are definitely my enemies.

[woo me with science]

38. Thank you.

That we, as Americans, are even entertaining these pathetic arguments is ASININE and shows just how deep and sick and malignant the corporate propaganda machine has become.

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. do you not see a certain point to consistency? If something would be wrong under Bush, is it not

still wrong under Obama? I will admit that my outrage is somewhat tempered by my assumption that this sort of thing was going on all along and would probably go on regardless which major party holds power. In that sense I am neither shocked or disappointed. It's just more of the same old bipartisan consensus. But are there not underlining principles that anyone on the side of progress would uphold regardless which party holds power? And do not some of these underlining principles deserve unqualified support however awful and however hypocritical the enemies of the Democratic Party might be?

I do recognize that the Republicans Party of today even at its best is still far, far worse than the Democratic Party even at its most pathetic - But sometimes this whole thing seems like one big game of good cop versus bad cop.

[The Magistrate]

14. Not One That Is Useful At Present, Sir, No

As you say, your outrage is somewhat tempered by awareness this is old news and likely to continue in any case, and my personal feelings on the matter are not too different.

But I will not, on any grounds, take up a position which would objectively benefit the elements hounding the President with an eye towards maintaining an atmosphere of scandal they believe will be conducive to their obstructing all Administration measures and appointments.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I am sorry

But this is partisan to the nth degree.

It was wrong when the USPA was passed, it was wrong when Bush ordered it...it is still wrong.

Some things are wrong, and party independent.

[The Magistrate]

19. Yes, Ma'am: I Am Partisan To The Nth Degree In This: You Got It In One

I am on one side of a fight, and I fight for my side. One should certainly examine all sides of a matter, and weigh all possibilities, but once one has made a decision, that is to be hewn to, and pressed home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Well we part company

The 4th amendment is party independent

Good to know you will only lead the parade when a Republican does it.

I am American first. Enjoy that partisan thinking. It inevitably leads to serious problems of the totalitarian type for nations.

And what is being built is the type of total state that can lead to very serious trouble.

History has echoes, and we are seeing the scary side of those echoes.

[The Magistrate]

21. I Expect I Will Find Strength To Bear Up Under It Somehow, Ma'am....

I know which side I am on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I know too

You are on the side of the total state as long as it is done by somebody with a D behind his name. It's a sad state of affairs, but it is what it is. Spare me the Ma'am, echoes of the Stasi, the KGB, the secret police and a few others are growing stronger in the background. That is what you are supporting as long as "your side does it."

True believer indeed...

Have a good day.

[Douglas Carpenter]

28. if the ultimate goal is to advance progress and creating a progressive party out of the Democratic

Party is an essential element in advancing progress - I don't see how continually sending a message to the Democratic Party leadership that they do not need to worry about the liberals and the progressives because they will be with them no matter what helps toward that end. When the Democratic Party adopted the New Deal - that development did not come from an atmosphere of unqualified support. The Democratic Party embraced the New Deal when they knew they had to embrace progressive policies in order to keep a major part of their constituency on board. Currently the Democratic Party leadership has been able to assume that they don't need to do anything progressive or worry about any policies no matter how reactionary - when it comes to keeping liberals and progressives on board. This "Democratic Party right or wrong" approach may in a limited sense help in the short term goal - but does it ultimately lead toward a more progressive Democratic Party and more progressive policies or even inhibit reactionary policies? I don't think so.

[The Magistrate]

31. In Order To Do That, Sir, The Reactionary Elements Must First Be Balked And Neutered

Attacking from the left a center-left or even center element which is the only immediately available tool by which the reaction can be opposed in government will tend to work to the advantage of the reaction, rather than to the advantage of the left. It is the most dangerous for, not the nearest one, which has to be dealt with first.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. if we have to wait for the Reactionary Elements to be balked and neutered - we are to be waiting a

very, very long time. They pretty much dominate almost all of small town and rural America these days. They have a media empire way beyond anything progressives can hope to have for the foreseeable future. They pretty much monopolize the world of single issue voters. They are thought by many to own God and the flag. But they are still a minority and largely an aging minority many of whom will die off - unfortunately around about the time you and I die off. But what we do not have is a progressive alternative - In American political culture of today there simply is no progressive antithesis to respond to the reactionary thesis - So the synthesis that passes for the middle ground ends up being almost entirely defined by the reactionary elements. Given the pressures that the Democratic Party leadership have to serve the interest of financial power - I don't see what can neutralize that or allow progressive views into the mainstream - when the Party leadership has only financial power they have to worry about keeping on board - knowing full well that no matter how much progressives and liberals may whine and belly ache - the liberals and progressive will be with them come hell or high water.

[The Magistrate]

43. I Agree, Sir, It Is Not A Short Campaign

But the principle remains, and I consider it a sound guide.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. Affectation only highlights vapidity.

nt

[woo me with science]

96. +1000

In this case, the "argument" boils down to the same old, hypocritical Third Way garbage: "It's perfectly fine when the Blue Team does it!"

[woo me with science]

61. "Circle the Wagons!" "Lesser of Two Evils!"

"You must want President Palin!"

I love stale Third Way talking points in Magistrate-ese.

But I recommend the Dialectizer for some variety. You know, spruce it up a bit:

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/

[dkf]

26. Were you for it when Bush did it?

[The Magistrate]

29. When You Have A Point, Ma'am, You Be Sure And Let Me Know

I have stated my position in the present circumstance.

I support the President in this attempt to jack up a fake scandal; I oppose absolutely those who seek to mire the Obama Administration in an aura of scandal to further their aim of obstructing the President's program and appointments.

Like it or not, in this situation, you are ranged on one side or the other of those two political forces. You can cry 'false dichotomy' as loud and long as you like; it will not make the slightest difference to what the circumstances actually are.

"Politics ain't bean-bag."

[woo me with science]

74. ****EXCELLENT QUESTION. THE MAGISTRATE WAS OUTRAGED WHEN BUSH DID IT******

and even described the NSA operation as a felony and an impeachable offense.

My, my, how things change when a Democrat is in office.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2523073#2523886

The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Sun Mar-19-06 10:04 PM

Response to Reply #8
18. You Say 'Grandstanding', Mr. Benchley, Like That Were A Bad Thing

It is not.

In the current climate, it is necessary to lay down markers, and create a buzz of discussion.

The purpose of the markers is two-fold.

First, on the subject of the N.S.A. operation revealed recently, it is undeniable something must be done. The action is a flat violation of the law; the current occupant of the Oval Ofice has publicly declared he ordered it done. This is a situation unique in the history of the Republic, that the current holder of the title of Chief Executive has stated publicly he has committed a felony. It is precisely the sort of crime of state, committed by the Executive wielding subordinates to its commission, the Founders had in mind when they included the remedy of impeachment. Some may well feel political expediency requires silence or inaction in the matter, but fealty to the Constitution, the touchstone of patriotism in our Republic since its foundation, dictates otherwise.

Second, it is imperative that the boundaries of political discussion be expanded, and expanded in a manner favorable to our side and our efforts. This cannot be done unless some persons of prominence get out ahead of the pack, and say with the full weight of their office and careers behind their voices, the things a great many people are saying at their kitchen tables already. It is true that some of those who do so will be assailed, even smeared, but that is the fate of the shock trooper in all places and times, and though their fates as individuals may be grim, they create the breach the rank and file may pile on through to break the enemy's line, and rout him.

"Where are the people? I must hurry there and lead them!"

[The Magistrate]

83. Always Good To Check Dates, Sir

The law on the matter is not what it was at the time those actions commenced, and that comment made. Since then, the law was changed, and in a matter specifically aimed at making this legal. So you will be unable to sustain any claim that I ought to be employing similar terms and prescriptions for President Obama.

As for taking sides in a political fight, seven years ago or today, yes, I take a side. I take the side I think it best should prevail. In this instance, I back President Obama.

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

[woo me with science]

88. And this, my friends, is the Third Way schtick.

Just make it legal. That's all you have to do. Never mind all that soaring rhetoric back then about "fealty to the Constitution."

Really, really pathetic. And the definition of hypocrisy.

And by the way, I already translated your cut and pasted last paragraph up above. It all boils down to the same Third Way schtick. Lesser of two evils! Circle the wagons! It's old, and it's beyond disgusting at this point.

[The Magistrate]

90. Still, Sir, A Man Cannot Be Indicted For Something That Is Not a Crime

If it is lawful, it is no crime, and so no grounds for action, whether in courts or an impeachment. The trouble you seem to have comprehending this simply underlines your poor grasp of the actual political circumstances.

[TheKentuckian]

32. There is no profit when you sell your soul.

I don't see what "winning" is worth when to get there you must sell out everything you got into the war to fight for.

What is left when the enemy is vanquished? How will you discern yourself from the beaten other than by the color of your uniform?

I'll agree on a piece with you though, I joined the fight in no small part to oppose shit just like this and I'm going to stick to that come what may. So, I can respect resolve, even if I believe it is been misapplied by stubbornly standing against yourself, our basic law, and the people in partisan game that sets up a frame that allows our bones to be picked clean. Your valor and honor used to drive a people that aspire to self determination to less than serfdom, property of a corporate run state.

There is no winning for the people in this game. Depravity justified by the fear of greater but undefined and imagined (though justifiably imagined) depravity.

Never mind the possibility that the competition is somewhat less or even just different than you wish to believe. Which in the matters of broadest impact or greatest threat of systemic abuse, appears to be the case because here you find consensus in action very consistently.

The existence of Colonel Sanders doesn't cause chickens for Popeye's to make any sense.

[The Magistrate]

35. That Is A Debatable Proposition, Sir

Particularly of one were to grant the existence of the thing.

I am at present concerned only with the immediate circumstance, which the attempt by enemies of President Obama to conjure up around him an aura of scandal and malfeasance. I will not cooperate with this in the slightest degree. I will oppose it. I will not be dissuaded.

[woo me with science]

75. Thank you. Please see Post 74.

[WinkyDink]

39. Well, which "side" is that? The Party that wants to surveil, or the Party that wants to surveil?

BTW: I'm a "Ma'am."

[The Magistrate]

42. I Am Willing To Repeat Myself, Sir

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the Confederacy, and their Birch-ite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

I support President Obama.

I hate and despise his enemies.

[kelly1mm]

49. I always love to read your posts - always well thought out and articulate. I DO

understand what you are saying. However, my thoughts on your position is despair/sadness. It was like a kick in the stomach. Sorry to ramble on about it but I think others who are familiar with your very good posts (and this one is no different, you explained your position VERY WELL) may be feeling the same.

I cannot cross this bridge with you, but I understand why you feel you must.

[The Magistrate]

51. Much Appreciated, Ma'am

If I did not think it the necessary line, I would not press it.

[woo me with science]

81. "One should certainly examine all sides of a matter."

Well, you have certainly been on both sides of this one, depending on who is President.

Sheesh.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2523073#2523886

The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Sun Mar-19-06 10:04 PM

Response to Reply #8
18. You Say 'Grandstanding', Mr. Benchley, Like That Were A Bad Thing

It is not.

In the current climate, it is necessary to lay down markers, and create a buzz of discussion.

The purpose of the markers is two-fold.

First, on the subject of the N.S.A. operation revealed recently, it is undeniable something must be done. The action is a flat violation of the law; the current occupant of the Oval Ofice has publicly declared he ordered it done. This is a situation unique in the history of the Republic, that the current holder of the title of Chief Executive has stated publicly he has committed a felony. It is precisely the sort of crime of state, committed by the Executive wielding subordinates to its commission, the Founders had in mind when they included the remedy of impeachment. Some may well feel political expediency requires silence or inaction in the matter, but fealty to the Constitution, the touchstone of patriotism in our Republic since its foundation, dictates otherwise.

Second, it is imperative that the boundaries of political discussion be expanded, and expanded in a manner favorable to our side and our efforts. This cannot be done unless some persons of prominence get out ahead of the pack, and say with the full weight of their office and careers behind their voices, the things a great many people are saying at their kitchen tables already. It is true that some of those who do so will be assailed, even smeared, but that is the fate of the shock trooper in all places and times, and though their fates as individuals may be grim, they create the breach the rank and file may pile on through to break the enemy's line, and rout him.

"Where are the people? I must hurry there and lead them!"

[The Magistrate]

85. Always Good To Check Dates, Sir

The law on the matter is not what it was at the time those actions commenced, and that comment made. Since then, the law was changed, and in a matter specifically aimed at making this legal. So you will be unable to sustain any claim that I ought to be employing similar terms and prescriptions for President Obama.

As for taking sides in a political fight, seven years ago or today, yes, I take a side. I take the side I think it best should prevail. In this instance, I back President Obama.

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

"It is not just comedy in which timing is everything."

[woo me with science]

93. What disingenuous bullshit.

You should have written then that you supported the spying, and that, like many authoritarians before him, all Bush needed to do to satisfy you would be to make it legal.

Take note, America. This is what has become of your government and political parties. This is how low the propaganda and the apologism and the hypocrisy have sunk.

[The Magistrate]

95. Why On Earth Would I Do That, Sir?

It would have been much to the benefit of the people and the country if sufficient outrage against actions by Bush to work his removal from office could have been mobilized.

Do you feel it would be much to the benefit of the people and the country if sufficient outrage against actions by President Obama to work his removal from office is mobilized?

[woo me with science]

97. CIRCLE THE WAGONS! NOW!

YOU WANT A REPUBLICAN IN POWER?!

Seriously, is that all you have?

[The Magistrate]

99. So You Have No Answer To The Question, Sir...

I did not think you would have one, or the nerve to stick the implications of your line out to its end.

[woo me with science]

104. Nope, I translated the question.

I distilled it into its vapid essence:

Do you feel it would be much to the benefit of the people and the country if sufficient outrage against actions by President Obama to work his removal from office is mobilized?...I did not think you would have one, or the nerve to stick the implications of your line out to its end.

Ooh. A threat.

Translation: "Don't EVER criticize Obama! You might cause something even EVILLER!!!!!!

LESSER OF TWO EVILS! LESSER OF TWO EVILS!"

How tedious and insulting the constant Third Way threats have become, when the Democratic administration we have right now is enacting, expanding, and working hard to legalize the very assaults even they claimed to abhor back then.

It's beyond tedious. And so is this conversation, since you clearly have nothing to offer beyond your constant attempts to repackage and refeed the stale, Third Way talking points I translated hours ago, up above.

I think Americans are finally getting angry. They are sick of the hypocrisy and the lies, and they are perhaps finally ready to stop circling the wagons around THIS:



Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954

Obama seeks longer PATRIOT Act extension than Republicans (December 2013)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x380450

When it comes to civil liberties, apparently Democrats are just as bad as Republicans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022101960

NSA's Massive New Spy Center to Track Your Emails, Internet Activity, and Phone Calls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101620852

Obama Quietly Signs Abusive Spy Bill He Once Vowed to Eliminate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022104861

Obama repeals Magna Carta, asserting powers our forefathers denied to Kings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101655620

Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919

Obama no better than Bush when it comes to security vs. civil liberties.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022355307

Obama Admin Seeks Permission TO LIE In Response To FOI Requests - Even To The COURTS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2185303

NDAA on trial: Obama Administration fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688

Obama administration complicit with private prison industry: President Obama's IncarcerNation
http://www.nationofchange.org/president-obama-s-incarcernation-1335274655

Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702

NDAA, signed by Obama, is a direct attack against legitimate protest and dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022064803

NSA Whistleblower: All Americans under constant surveillance, all info. stored, no matter the post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002193487; http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021935289

Bipartisan Congress Disgracefully Approves the FISA Warrantless Spying Bill for Five More Years
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022087323

While Public & Media Focused on 2nd Amendment, 5th Amendment Quietly Dismantled
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022390581

How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022318187

Judge Says Under Law Executive Branch Can Commit Acts That Sure Do Seem Unconstitutional
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022122464

Obama Justice Dept. says wiretap lawsuit should not proceed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014337039

NDAA Lawsuit- Hedges v. Obama, The Last Thin Line of Defense
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022357078

Federal authorities step up efforts to license surveillance drones for law enforcement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022383596

Big Banks and FBI worked together vs Occupy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022095056]

FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578

FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring (Updated the OP)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022057064

Public Buses Across Country Quietly Adding Microphones to Record Passenger Conversations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965291

Street artist behind satirical NYPD 'Drone' posters arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021920967

The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527

Obama Administration Fights to Allow Warrantless GPS Tracking
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1074474

Anonymous to FBI: hey, dudes, maybe you could take a break from...investigating activists....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022145621

Half a billion dollars for drones to spy on Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876414

From Bradley Manning to Aaron Swartz -- The Government's Inhumane Persecution of Brave Truth Tellers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941

The sight of Army helicopters and the sound of gunfire...on Houston's south side
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276742

Kiriakou and Stuxnet: the danger of the still-escalating Obama whistleblower war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275570

Can the DEA Hide a Surveillance Camera on Your Property?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237059

Social Media and the Stasi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021888029

Homeland Security Wants to More Than Double Its Predator Drone Fleet Inside the US, Despite Safety/Privacy Invasions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014312823

CIA Behind Bizarre Censorship Incident At Alleged 9/11 Plotters’ Gitmo Trial
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022280285

“I Am Wearing My Conviction As A Badge Of Honor.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275128

Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525281

How Secrecy Corrodes Democracy
http://election.democraticunderground.com/101655009

Obama Quietly Issues Ruling Saying It's Legal For The FBI To Break The Law
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7545687

US Pulls Plug on Iran Cable News (Press TV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014394770

DHS Watchdog OKs 'Suspicionless' Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339091

[The Magistrate]

105. Squid's Ink, Sir: You Have No Answer For The Question, No Safe One, Anyway

That is what I expected, and it does not surprise me you do not have the nerve to stick the implications of your line out to its end.

[woo me with science]

106. Psst.

Your needle is stuck.

Shamelessly, utterly shamelessly so. And I think that is a fitting end here.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966378

[The Magistrate]

109. Again, Sir: Squid's Ink --- You Cannot Answer the Question, Not Safely, Anyway

It would have been much to the benefit of the people and the country if sufficient outrage against actions by Bush to work his removal from office could have been mobilized.

Do you feel it would be much to the benefit of the people and the country if sufficient outrage against actions by President Obama to work his removal from office is mobilized?

I did not think you would have one, or the nerve to stick the implications of your line out to its end., and you have shown my expectation correct.

[truebluegreen]

67. ...it is still wrong.

+1000

[woo me with science]

76. Of course it is. And "The Magistrate"

was well aware of that in 2006. Passionate, even.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966378

What vile, morally bankrupt partisan hypocrisy we are treated to, every single day, by the Third Way on this board.

We are talking about our Constitutional protections and the foundations of our free society. Enough rank apologism and hypocrisy. Enough of this shameless authoritarian garbage.

[truebluegreen]

103. Wow.

That is some level of hypocrisy and tribalism there. Wow.

Bravo and thank you for speaking out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. that makes no sense whatsoever. (also please don't ma'am me in your response.

these overly gendered response patterns of yours are extremely annoying to me)

[rhett o rick]

62. I assume your reference to "his enemies" are the terrorists of the world?

Loyalty and trust are admirable traits. However, I recommend a touch of skepticism. I am less afraid of terrorists (death by terrorism is low on the list of violent deaths in the world), than by an aggressive government that uses fear to promote policies that reduce or eliminate our freedoms and liberties. Since 2000 we have lost a lot of our freedoms and liberties and it doesnt look like this president is going to halt the progression.

[The Magistrate]

64. If By Terrorist, Sir, You Mean The Likes Of McConnell And Beohner, The Kochs, Adelson, And Such, Yes

I will repeat myself once again:

This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.

It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.

I support President Obama.

I hate and despise his enemies.

[dkf]

110. What will you do when he is out of office?

Will you still support it?

[The Magistrate]

112. Again, Ma'am --- When You Have A Point, You Be Sure And Let Me Know

I have stated my position in the present circumstance.

I support the President in this attempt to jack up a fake scandal; I oppose absolutely those who seek to mire the Obama Administration in an aura of scandal to further their aim of obstructing the President's program and appointments.

I expect from 2016, the same fight against the worst elements of reaction will continue, in one form or another, and I will take the same side I take now, and always have taken.

[dkf]

114. I know you support Obama. I don't know if you support these programs in perpetuity.

Do you only support this when a Democrat is in office? Will you protest against it if we don't hold the presidency? Do you think we will ever get to evaluate how it is being used if its in the Fisa court? Or do you trust the Fisa court even though they are shrouded in secrecy?

[The Magistrate]

116. So, Ma'am, You Are Just Fishing, As Usual

Not interested in playing with you. My concern is with the present political situation. That demands a certain line, from anyone who is seriously interested in good governance for our country, and in the benefit of the people. I take up that line, and press it.

I will say or do nothing that could in the smallest way assist this attempt to jack up a fake scandal; I oppose absolutely those who seek to mire the Obama Administration in an aura of scandal to further their aim of obstructing the President's program and appointments. I support President Obama. I oppose the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the confederacy, and their Birchite corporate pay-masters.

[busterbrown]

115. I’ve always thought however, that Obama’s legacy will be setting the table

for a truly progressive govt.. over the next several election cycles..

I’d also like to remind...If this country was ever attacked by "foreign terrorists" after Obama eliminated some sort of security apparatus, we would have been locked into a right wing war mongering party for at least a decade...

Obama, due not to his own fault has spent 5 years trying to prove to the uneducated in this country that he is not an Islamic Socialist!!

I like you, will not give an inch to these woeful human beings..

[The Magistrate]

117. I Hope You Are Right, Sir

It does take time to shift the course of a sizable vessel....

[busterbrown]

120. How does this man handle all the personal hate directed at him and his family?

Why were so few of us there to shove it back in their faces at their rallies?
I guess it was so atrocious no one knew how to face the physical danger..

I think since then we have learned and I will retreat no more...

[rug]

133. You seem to think this is about Obama.

A peculiar view.

[sabrina 1]

145. Well, his enemies are supporting him on this. Ari Fleischer eg, praised him the other night

for keeping Bush's policies to 'protect the American people' with. While Paul Begala otoh, admitted he cannot understand why Obama has changed his mind so completely on this issue.

Fighting for a wrong cause doesn't seem rational. We are not soldiers, we are citizens. We opposed Ari Fleischer's 'you better watch what you say' antics and his boss ACTUALLY watching what we say, back then. I will not lie for anyone about how I feel about the government spying on the people.

Edited to add that I would never want to be caught dead on the same side as Ari 'the liar' Fleischer on any issue. If I had his support on anything, I would need nothing else to tell me how wrong I am. Let's hope the president will realize this also now that Ari has taken his side.

[DURHAM D]

3. How did one person vote Yes twice?

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. Beat me to it. n/t

[Aerows]

7. I wondered that, too n/t

[bowens43]

9. like most issues, Obama is on the wrong side.....

[H2O Man]

11. Definitely not.

One of the things that I find troubling on DU is that some thoughtful, intelligent people believe that if one disagrees with President Obama, it somehow equals siding with his republican opposition. Allowing one's self to be mentally handcuffed to such a limited way of thinking denies a person the ability to evaluate important issues on their merits. It is one of the definitions of "reactionary."

[RC]

70. What you are seeing are 3rd Way, DINO's, Blue Dogs and people who

are claiming to be Liberal and/or Progressive, because they voted for that "Left-wing, Looney Liberal, Obama" once or twice.

[Skidmore]

82. That's a really broad brush you are painting with.

I hope you don't strain yourself.

[RC]

121. I forgot to mention Right of Center.

Yeah, it does take two hands to hold it. Being a Democrat is loosing its meaning, compared to 10 years ago and before.

[jeff47]

128. No, what you're missing is two-party politics is a zero-sum game.

We have a "first-past-the-poll" election system. As such, any votes that aren't for one of the two major parties is effectively a vote for the other major party. The minor parties simply do not receive enough votes to compete.

It would be far better for us to move to something like "instant runoff voting", so that would not be the case. But that's not going to happen any time soon.

As a result, the people posting that they will now drop all support for Democrats are effectively supporting the Republicans.

But we are not required to dump all support for Obama and the Democratic party in order to think this program is bad.

But that's just the obvious part. There's also the less-obvious part. We aren't talking about things like cuts to food stamps. Didja know the Senate just voted to cut them? There's zero threads on the greatest page about that. But hey, there's this 8-year-old program that is suddenly critical to discuss, so we can't get to talking about starving the poor.

[DLevine]

12. I do not. nt

[limpyhobbler]

13. k/r

can't wait to see who supports it.

[CakeGrrl]

24. Raises hand

Label away.

Oh, and by the way: Supporting the president in my view does not equate to liking the concept of surveillance. That IS possible.

[TheKentuckian]

44. I'm not sure how it is possible other than saying you support Obama doing something you are actually

against in principle, which seems like nonsense of the same caliber as claiming to be against police brutality except when one you like does it or wanting women beaters under the jail except your brother because he is "provoked".

I guess there is always the "MY President, right or wrong" position to be staked out, you know 28%er land.

I could be wrong but I'm not seeing from here, it certainly isn't self explanatory.

[boilerbabe]

72. i do believe she is admitting to cognitive dissonance. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Did not like I when bush did it

Don't like it now

[Logical]

107. Perfect answer! I agree! n-t

[moondust]

25. The problem

I have is that anytime a debate involves the activities of the Top Secret bureaucracy, if given enough oxygen a small spark can easily ignite a raging forest fire of public outrage even though it is very difficult, if not impossible, for the public to verify what is really going on and make an informed judgment. There may be some subtle policy nuances involved that render it all harmless, but most people can't or won't understand or take that into account.

It would be nice if we had some statistics on the proven effectiveness of these activities (return on investment) but those, too, would be open to debate for the same reasons.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a bunch of amoral corporatists and plutocrats had casually pitched the U.S. Constitution and ordered their government servants to do whatever it takes to protect them and their interests.

[Politicalboi]

27. This is what we get

Obama didn't start this shit, and I am willing to bet this IS a recommendation of the 9/11 commission. Yes, the 9/11 commission that most people here believe what they told you on 9/11. Now you're pissed off.

I guarantee you, if we actually had a FULL investigation and demanded answers, we wouldn't be in this mess. I am just laughing my ass off. Now you know how us "truthers" feel. Only WE wanted answers, while you didn't, and NOW you do. Good Luck

[Tarheel_Dem]

30. You bet your ass I do.

[Logical]

108. Wow, scary! n-t

[ForgoTheConsequence]

34. If you support Obama you support Lindsey Graham.

: :

[WinkyDink]

36. No. And I take DEEP OFFENSE at his "We as a society have to decide," WHEN HE TRIED TO HIDE ALL OF

THIS.

HOW, PRAY, CAN SOCIETY "DECIDE" ON ISSUES WHOSE DETAILS ARE DELIBERATELY HIDDEN FROM IT?

[randome]

46. We made the Patriot Act possible by not preventing it.

And we conveniently overlooked it for the past few years until -surprise!- Greenwald of the Guardian tells us they are actually using the Patriot Act!

If we don't like having phone metadata handed over to the government -and I personally could care less- then we need to get Congress to rescind the Patriot Act.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[woo me with science]

119. [phone]

Thank you.

It has been a very long time since our voices in this "democratic" (cough cough) society have seemed to have any bearing on policy decisions at all.

And that was even before the President claimed all these powers to imprison and kill without due process, and to surveil with nationwide dragnets. Good god.

I hope the disgusting spectacle of apologists defending even THIS is what shakes America to its core and finally causes the people to say, ENOUGH. Every single day of rank apologia shows how morally bankrupt and ruthless the corporate powers in our government, and their propaganda machine, have really become.

[woo me with science]

132. Obama administration threatens criminal probe over disclosure of NSA surveillance of Americans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/08/us-usa-security-leaks-idUSBRE95700K20130608

Expect an example to be made of those who thought the American people have a right to know.

[1-Old-Man]

45. Not only do I not support him on this I think that this and extrajudicial killing of US citizens....

.... are both impeachable offenses.

[tridim]

56. Ladies and gentlemen... I give you the inevitable (now weekly) DU call for impeachment!!!11

Impeachment of our democratically elected, Democratic President, because he had the audacity to follow the law and then address the leak.

Now, who was the other poutrager that was claiming nobody on DU is calling for impeachment?

[On the Road]

50. To Tell You the Truth,

I can't figure out what is going on in spite of the dozen of threads.

At first people were saying the government is listening to their phone calls. That does not appear to be true. Some of the description in the Washington Post article sounds like the laws that were being voted on during the 2008 campaign -- US-to-international calls, international-to-international calls which pass through the US, FISA courts, etc.

I read that law and debated it on DU. Nothing in the wording appeared to do what its critics charged, and no one on DU could point to anything specifc. That is a major reason I am skeptical of the way this is being presented. I really do not think most of the critics have a detailed understanding of what is legal and illegal, or what it has been demonstrated that the NSA government is doing or not doing.

IIRC, the 2007 law allowed the federal government to collect widespread call data from the US to certain destinations, such a group of villages in Pakistan, after presenting a case to the FISA court and getting it approved. This is OK with me, even though it can be depicted as "MONITORING THE PHONE CALLS OF AMERICANS!!"

[tridim]

53. I wonder how many perpetually poutraged DU'ers will datamine this poll for their ignore list?

[Iggo]

66. Approximately a shit-ton of 'em...

...I suppose.

[struggle4progress]

58. Frankly, all pre-processed instant hysteria aside, it's very difficult

to know exactly what has been "disclosed"

We seem to have a warrant from a FISA court, that is rather vague and may not really represent exactly what the court has authorized; and we seem to have a copy of a powerpoint presentation, the meaning of which has also been disputed

[WinkyDink]

69. "pre-processed instant hysteria"? FU.

[struggle4progress]

79. The FISA courts have been around since 1978; and it's been settled law since the 1979 SCOTUS ruling

in Smith v Maryland that there is no expectation of privacy for telephone call records

Frankly, I've never really heard much public outrage about any of that during the last 30 years

Of course, if our side ever got real control of Congress, we'd have a better shot at limiting the FISA courts, which got a big power-grant as part of the deal giving the telecoms immunity for their cooperation with Bush's illegal wiretapping

And if we held enough seats in the Senate as well as the Oval Office for enough years, we might actually get enough of our friends on SCOTUS to start to limit the Smith v Maryland idea that there is no expectation of privacy for telephone call records. Sotomayor is already getting some coverage for expressing the view that dragnets of call records need to be limited

Meanwhile, furor erupts without much definite information to go on. The phone records story is based on a single purported warrant that actually mentions only Verizon's corporate service subsidiary, not its residential service: it moreover seems to be a program that has been ongoing for six years or so, and actually whose records are being monitored is unclear

The PRISM story is based on interpretations of a leaked powerpoint presentation, and quite a few internet companies have indicated that the claims about their servers being tapped 24/7 are simply untrue.

[randome]

87. Thanks for the history lesson and the perspective!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[busterbrown]

122. Thank you...

I hope Duer’s take note...

The truth is that there usually is never a right and wrong consensus among thinkers..

But there is certainly right and wrong consensus among those who don’t.

We hate Obama and to them there is no right or wrong on this issue....This is what our fight should be about!!

[Number23]

125. What an educational post. I didn't expect much from this thread so it's appreciated.

[woo me with science]

80. +100000 Only pre-processed for those who are able

to shut it off depending on which Party is in power.

At long last, the Third Way rock has been turned over, and the rank hypocrisy underneath is finally waking Americans up.

It is a malignant infestation of our party by corporatism and authoritarianism, and this is what we need to fix.

[struggle4progress]

102. "Facts first, analysis second" is a useful slogan for serious activists

The first news reports are all too often inaccurate, and it's worth the time to get the details right before spinning out conclusions. Failure, to develop the habit of getting facts right before producing an analysis, always leads eventually to loss of credibility

Your analysis seems to be that whoever has failed to knee-jerk on these first news reports is a lackey for corporate power. That analysis makes no sense in the context of the alleged FISA warrant:

Firstly, because the warrant authorizes the collection of call records from a corporate services subsidiary of Verizon, not from residential customers, so the records are expected mostly to be records of corporate calls, and therefore one might expect the targets lie among Verizon's corporate customers;

Secondly, because the telecoms ALREADY have their call records, so handing such records to the government is mostly a nuisance to the telecoms and not something that should be expected to enhance their power

[PsychoBunny]

59. I always support the President

But I am not sure exactly what needs to be done in this case.

[Savannahmann]

63. My support for the President is not an all or nothing deal.

I can support him, while disagreeing vocally with him on issues. I am not a Party over Principle individual, and I would hope that none of us here are. We are Democrats, which means we have principles other than opposing those who are not. However, that said, President Obama has my support, even if he is monumentally wrong on this issue. On this issue, he has no support from me, and neither does any Representative, or Senator who voted for it.

[Iggo]

65. Define "support."

[deathrind]

78. There is nothing "recent" about this story. Nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022963663

[quinnox]

84. I do not and can not support spying on this kind of mammoth scale

and its done regardless of guilt or innocence. No way. If they suspect someone is a terrorist, then of course they can spy on them, but not everyone willy-nilly.

This poll is encouraging in the results though.

[woo me with science]

91. Yeah, this one is being heavily astroturfed and propagandized

and will for a long time, precisely because the overwhelming rage over this is so clear and emphatic.

This one is deeply, deeply damaging to the illusion of working for the people and the Constitution, and we will see all manner of eager Third Way voices piping up to volunteer that their Constitutional protections aren't really important to them anyway. Not as much as supporting the BLUE TEAM!

I am hoping that the spectacle of this rank, brazen hypocrisy and apologism, over an issue like this, finally wakes America up to how malignant these corporatists and authoritarians really are.

[Honeycombe8]

111. I'm not sure. I'm upset about it, but he did get a Court Order, unlike Bush.

I'm upset about the law and actually had a nightmare about it when it passed.

I'm not sure yet how I feel about Obama USING the law and getting a Court Order. In a way, I'm thinking it wasn't smart....too much information and metadata to be useful to the govt, I think. As opposed to getting information that's targeted to some people.

[closeupready]

118. No, I don't. I generally support Obama, but not on this.

Sorry.

It obviously didn't stop the April 15 attacks in Boston, so how is this surveillance making anyone safer? No.

[Left2Tackle]

123. No, can't on this one.

It's all about the slippery slope. Bush used the FISA court to monitor calls outside this country. Now President Obama is expanding or reauthorizing to use on national calls. Who knows what the next president will do. Next time a Republican is elected, then what? No thanks.

[boilerbabe]

124. the 50 people who support this shit must ALL be online posting tonight.

this place is SWAMPED with the same weak talking points.

[quinnox]

126. you noticed that too

They all seem to be copy and paste jobs as well. I am smelling some desperation.

[woo me with science]

130. This one is important to them.

This one will be incessantly propagandized, because it is extremely threatening to public support and to the illusion the Third Way tries to maintain, of sharing and working on behalf of the democratic values and civil liberties enshrined in our Constitution.

The corporate/authoritarian mouthpieces will not let this one go. However, I think they vastly underestimate the level of anger here, particularly when they are attempting to use the very same cynical arguments that worked in the past, to justify an assault of this magnitude and importance. People resent being lied to. They resent being conned. And they especially resent being treated like fools and serfs on an issue that cuts to the heart of our fundamental values as Americans.

[marmar]

135. It's major 'shout down, spin-control' mode today........

....... but I think this one has spun away from them.

[Marrah_G]

138. I think people are tired of arguing with them

For certain posters nothing the President does is ever wrong. They are loud, but as you can see from the poll, much fewer in number. It's my opinion that a lot of people don't respond to them anymore so it seems like most of DU is prospying, when most in fact, are not.

[limpyhobbler]

136. not really. seems pretty creepy. nt

[Recursion]

139. What does "support President Obama" mean?

That's pretty much vague enough to be meaningless. I'm never going to like FISA as a concept, for instance.

[Douglas Carpenter]

140. support his policy in regards to the recent revelations about NSA surveillance program?

one might support his Presidency over all - but not on this matter

[Recursion]

141. What is "his policy in regards to the recent revelations about NSA surveillance program"?

He's said he disapproves of the leak, which is pretty much the President's job to say when there's a leak.

[Douglas Carpenter]

143. my question is if people support the surveillance program that his administration is currently

defending

[Recursion]

144. I don't know what the surveillance program actually is (and neither do you or anybody else here)

so it's hard to say. I think FISA had a lot of flaws in it, but I've also seen no evidence it's being violated.

[stevenleser]

142. After doing the research for my show this week, changing my answer to 'Yes'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022981244