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maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:53 PM Jun 2013

They're manpulating us right into a "frickin" Tea Bagger veto proof majority

and I for one am not gonna' fall for it. As the greatest (at least the greatest live) band in the world said; "Won't Get Fooled Again".

The fucksticks couldn't beat this president at the ballot box, but they don't need to. Just like in 2010, all they have to do is throw shit on the wall to help ensure we don't come out and vote in 2014. I guess the only consolation is that at least in 2014 WE WON'T BE SURRENDERING THE ENTIRE FUCKING CENSUS FOR 10 FUCKING YEARS and all the gerrymandering that comes with it.

Don't fall for this crap. The fucking government is not listening to your phone call or reading your e-mail. If you don't think that a federal judge would smack that shit down in a heartbeat, then you have absolutely no respect for our entire judicial system, that...despite it's flaws, is about the best damn judicial system in the history of the fucking planet.

No, this is all an attempt to get you outraged so you'll stay home.

If you don't dig into this story a little further, and simply rely of the likes of fucking Glen Greenwald, you're a fool.

And you know what...it's not because I "trust" President Obama, or our government, but I do trust our court system, and I do trust our career intelligence folks, and I do trust our Constitution.

You know who I don't trust? THE FUCKING REPUBICAN PARTY and the billionaire funded Tea-Baggers and right-wing media

116 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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They're manpulating us right into a "frickin" Tea Bagger veto proof majority (Original Post) maxrandb Jun 2013 OP
This exposure makes Bush and congress look bad, not Obama. Please come down from there! NYC_SKP Jun 2013 #1
How does the sand taste? Twofish Jun 2013 #50
huh? Kali Jun 2013 #109
lmgtfy Twofish Jun 2013 #110
Spot the f*ck on madokie Jun 2013 #2
I think those being "manipulated" were always Cha Jun 2013 #3
Hush Truth!!! n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #35
If Obama wants political support DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #4
he could listen to the american people usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #6
the American People's lips have been sealed on the subject for years. uncle ray Jun 2013 #90
People who brought up concerns about these issues in the past Art_from_Ark Jun 2013 #111
Again, nobody is spying on you maxrandb Jun 2013 #9
Since I work at a bank, I know exactly under what circumstances the government can DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #15
And you know what maxrandb Jun 2013 #22
I refer you to Ben Franklin. You know the quote. Chew on it awhile. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #23
I know the quote maxrandb Jun 2013 #26
He said that PRIOR to the American Revolution Occulus Jun 2013 #34
Oh and where I work Iliyah Jun 2013 #36
That's B.S. ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #37
You know, IMO, principle is more important... tex-wyo-dem Jun 2013 #51
B.S. ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #53
Yeah,well more people want mercymechap Jun 2013 #62
I've asked how ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #67
Well, get yourself all comfty-cozy, Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #85
Actually, a lot of Americans died for our freedom. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #57
Not this century ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #69
Jim Crow and Stonewall were in the 20th century as was JDPriestly Jun 2013 #75
And for that reason mercymechap Jun 2013 #78
I said "except" ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #79
Yes. WWII was about freedom. I lived in Germany and Austria JDPriestly Jun 2013 #82
And who is subpoenaing mercymechap Jun 2013 #77
I don't think you understand the scope of what is going on here. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #56
And??? n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #70
Here. Maybe this guy can explain the problem. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #76
Nope ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #97
You're one of the ones mercymechap Jun 2013 #60
I'm one of the ones who believes in both basic liberties and good police work DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #105
Yeah, well considering how long it mercymechap Jun 2013 #114
You staked out a coward's position. You live with it. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #115
To the contrary - mercymechap Jun 2013 #116
+1 forestpath Jun 2013 #20
pfttttth cliffordu Jun 2013 #30
Thank you. woo me with science Jun 2013 #40
How could Obama "bury that fact for 25 years"? brush Jun 2013 #45
Wrong direction. The warrant wasn't to have become public for 25 years DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #89
Why do you assume Obama "wants public support"? BlueStreak Jun 2013 #64
Oh I too love the 'secret courts', the 'secret trials' and the 'secrets prisons'...indeed. /sarcasm Purveyor Jun 2013 #5
don't forget secret FEMA camps greenman3610 Jun 2013 #8
Didn't forget them as they don't exist. You dispute the other three I mentioned? eom Purveyor Jun 2013 #17
No FEMA camps, but we sure do have private prisons that JDPriestly Jun 2013 #59
Good pick up. Noticed that as well. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #11
Are you really that naive? maxrandb Jun 2013 #18
If you don't want to be like Communist Russia DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #21
Really??? maxrandb Jun 2013 #24
Strawmen are for amateurs. Get serious, or tend to different parts of your thread. DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #25
You compare America to Stalin's Russia maxrandb Jun 2013 #27
Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #38
Again..... cliffordu Jun 2013 #31
Was that comment supposed to be a joke? JDPriestly Jun 2013 #54
i think the nsa metadata collection is bullshit but find the current outrage over it suspicious arely staircase Jun 2013 #7
Of course they have maxrandb Jun 2013 #13
I believe that Obama voted to retroactively excuse the phone JDPriestly Jun 2013 #61
no he support it, obviously arely staircase Jun 2013 #84
They don't need to discourage everyone. A small percentage is enough to flip a close election. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #10
They found judges to repeatedly issue warrants. Beats me how GoneFishin Jun 2013 #12
It is called "Judge Shopping" BlueStreak Jun 2013 #66
Were you on another planet in 2000? Fumesucker Jun 2013 #14
Again, we have a way to influence that maxrandb Jun 2013 #19
Stop making sense already BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #101
The co-author of the wapo story, Laura Poitras certainly has reason to manufacture this scandal. She okaawhatever Jun 2013 #16
Thank you, and again Iliyah Jun 2013 #39
They're pissed because Issa's scandals didn't work. This is classic ratfucking. freshwest Jun 2013 #93
If Obama has a major terrorist attack-say buhbye to Dems for a generation. ErikJ Jun 2013 #28
What the fuck? Zoeisright Jun 2013 #44
One word-BENGHAZI: ErikJ Jun 2013 #48
and Bush won reelection BlueStreak Jun 2013 #68
The Repugs through the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have stacked the deck in the Courts of Dustlawyer Jun 2013 #29
Part Of Jim DeMint's "Don't Legislate, Instead Focus On Scandal" DallasNE Jun 2013 #32
Yes, memo states that. Iliyah Jun 2013 #46
Who cares? This is the first I have heard that suggested how JDPriestly Jun 2013 #63
It was all the phone companies. We're talking about Verizon because that's the one that leaked. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #71
You are probably right. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #72
The Reporting On This Is Rotten To The Core DallasNE Jun 2013 #107
Obama could very easily solve that problem by stopping the programs. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #108
But We Have Known The Broad Outline Of These Programs Since 2006 DallasNE Jun 2013 #81
Obama promised to stop these indiscriminate collections of JDPriestly Jun 2013 #83
I, For One, Would Like To See A Report Outlining DallasNE Jun 2013 #87
Agreed. If this has only netted a few alleged terrorists, it isn't worth JDPriestly Jun 2013 #92
No he didn't maxrandb Jun 2013 #112
Just listen to what the whistleblower is saying. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #113
Obama & Dem Leadership quick to denounce extra scrutiny of Tea Party but not the extra scrutiny of usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #33
It's been a pattern with the president Doctor_J Jun 2013 #103
Amen! oldandhappy Jun 2013 #41
The President himself has admitted it!!! caseymoz Jun 2013 #42
YES, why did obama yesterday demand an investigation of the LEAK if this is old news?? boilerbabe Jun 2013 #58
Particularly considering he isn't running for anything anyway. BlueStreak Jun 2013 #73
Yep. Zoeisright Jun 2013 #43
"The fucking government is not listening to your phone call or reading your e-mail." rhett o rick Jun 2013 #47
Anybody who could make a statement like that must have been in a cave since 1993 BlueStreak Jun 2013 #80
You say they have been in a cave, I call it their denial bubble. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #99
Agreed. That's a lot of calls to be listening to brush Jun 2013 #96
I've said this ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #49
So. Let Obama renounce this surveillance that is indiscriminate JDPriestly Jun 2013 #65
First ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #74
Yes, now I know why the troglodytes all us dummies. I've been disappointed at the lack of thought. freshwest Jun 2013 #95
I have to constantly ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #98
Gore's a Teabag dupe and so's fighting expansion of Bush programs--got it! MisterP Jun 2013 #52
You mean the "Judicial system" that oks torture, Citizens United, Bush v. Gore, etc...? Corruption Inc Jun 2013 #55
Yeah, but who am I supposed to vote for? Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #86
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hell, I'll shout it from the rooftops. Initech Jun 2013 #88
So true. ucrdem Jun 2013 #91
oh my word. come back to reality. learn just a fucking wee bit from the history cali Jun 2013 #94
Dress it up any way you like... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #100
The president could help the situation by adopting some Dem and liberal causes Doctor_J Jun 2013 #102
A Teabag Majority would make it easier for "bipartisanship" blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #104
See, it's ALL OUR FAULT that we don't buy into the LIES from DC. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #106
 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
4. If Obama wants political support
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:56 PM
Jun 2013

...then it was very foolish to spy on millions of Americans and attempt to bury that fact for 25 years. See, that makes people less trusting of politicians, and lots of people won't show up for the mid-terms. Take it up with the President.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
6. he could listen to the american people
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:59 PM
Jun 2013

and this would not be an issue, exactly.

All these whacked conspiracy theories are just a form of denial that prevents us from achieving real change.

If our president listened to the criticism, he and our party would be unstoppable, but by the way they behave the squander all their political capital and then run around like CHILDREN looking for someone else to blames for problems of their OWN making.

uncle ray

(3,153 posts)
90. the American People's lips have been sealed on the subject for years.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:33 AM
Jun 2013

until this week, there was practically zero outrage over the collecting of this info. no petitions to the white house web site, no hecklers, no questions asked at press briefings. it would seem that up until this point, the american people have been fine with Obama using the authority that the American People authorized their Congress to grant to the previous president.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
111. People who brought up concerns about these issues in the past
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 09:05 AM
Jun 2013

were derided as "wackos", "nuts" and "conspiracy theorists"

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
9. Again, nobody is spying on you
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:09 PM
Jun 2013

You know what, commit a crime, and see how long it would be for the authorities to show cause to a judge that Verizon turn over your phone records to a prosecutor. Hell, it may not even need to be a crime, they might even subpoena those in a Divorce proceeding. How about your bank records. Do you think if investigators came to a judge with probable cause you were dealing drugs, or committing bank fraud, they wouldn't get your records so fast your head would spin?

This is the same damn thing. The government would still need to present probable cause to a federal court to use any of those records.

I would like that the government didn't need to do this, but I also would like to know that if some asshats planned to blow up the NYC Subway system, we might be able to track them down.

OMG! The next thing you know, we'll find out that the USPS keeps track of the mail we send.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
15. Since I work at a bank, I know exactly under what circumstances the government can
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:23 PM
Jun 2013

...look at customer information, and under what conditions this is divulged to the customer. This information is publicly available. No such thing can be said for Obama's secret surveillance program. I'd think you'd be able to see the tangible and meaningful difference. By the way, the USPS doesn't know where you are 24/7, but the NSA warrant lets them get cell phone location data, so they do have 24/7 access to most people's motives. We are being spied on. You can choose to be a good German. Not me. You can choose to believe known liars when they tell you how limited this program is, but I'm going a different way.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
22. And you know what
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:44 PM
Jun 2013

If someone blows up the Sears building, and they find his cell phone number, then...AND ONLY THEN...can they go to a judge and ask for the information on who this guy talked to and where he called from, and they will get it, and I'm glad that they can.

You have absolutely no fucking perspective if you think that somehow makes us "good Germans". That's Glenn Beck talk...you should be proud.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
26. I know the quote
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:56 PM
Jun 2013

but I believe that even Ben Franklin would have authorized the collection of data that would help defeat the Brits, or identify folks that were collaborating or helping them.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
34. He said that PRIOR to the American Revolution
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:21 PM
Jun 2013

and freedom from government intrusion (BY the Brits) was one of the reasons FOR the American Revolution

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
36. Oh and where I work
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:35 PM
Jun 2013

majority are saying nothing new. If America want to change the Patriot Act, vote progressives in.

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
51. You know, IMO, principle is more important...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:21 AM
Jun 2013

Than "security" or even life. I would much rather die in a blown up building knowing that I lived in a free and just society than live in one that is repressive and authoritarian where my every move is tracked just "to keep us safe" and, thus, my actions, no matter how innocent, may result in my incarceration or death.

That is what Franklin was referring to...principle.

Authoritarians justifying their draconian actions, whether it be war with others or police action within their own country, in the name of "keeping us safe" is a trick as old as the hills. It's real goal has always been the same...to consolidate power with the wealthy elite.

mercymechap

(579 posts)
62. Yeah,well more people want
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:44 AM
Jun 2013

to be safe, rather than protect their privacy. They are just collecting numbers, and only in cases where they have need to find out who accessed your number (like they did in the Boston bombing), will they check further to get names, etc., This has been going on for years, and so far I haven't found that it has affected me in any way. Maybe because I don't have anything to hide?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
67. I've asked how ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:55 AM
Jun 2013

for someone/anyone to explain how this stuff will affect my/their lives without citing to some alexjones/infowars/glenbeckish conspiracy theory.

I'm still waiting.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
57. Actually, a lot of Americans died for our freedom.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:35 AM
Jun 2013

I know that is quite a cliche, but it happens to be true.

I don't think they died to have their grandchildren's phone records subpoenaed for no reason.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
75. Jim Crow and Stonewall were in the 20th century as was
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:03 AM
Jun 2013

WWII. The only official wars in this century were Iraq and Afghanistan as far as I know. I was born during WWII. It's not that long ago. And people did die in the Civil Rights struggle.

mercymechap

(579 posts)
78. And for that reason
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:11 AM
Jun 2013

we should keep the government from doing everything they can to catch any terrorist activity? I really don't want to die in some bombing, and I don't really care if the government needs to have phone numbers so they can track perpetrators - it's not like they are ever going to examine my phone number since I don't have any contact with any terrorists.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
79. I said "except" ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:16 AM
Jun 2013

referencing jim crow and stonewall, i.e., the Civil Rights struggle(s).

WWII was not about "Freedom", despite what john wayne said. There have been no "wars" fought for "freedom" ... except for the American Revolution and the Black soldiers fighting in the Civil war. All the rest were fought for wealth and land.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
82. Yes. WWII was about freedom. I lived in Germany and Austria
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:45 AM
Jun 2013

and I know that it was about freedom.

Have you ever visited a former NAZI prison camp? Have you ever talked to people who survived NAZI terror and prison camps? I have.

WWII was about freedom, and if someone has told you differently, they are wrong. I know about that first-hand. I am not telling you something I do not know for a fact myself.

mercymechap

(579 posts)
77. And who is subpoenaing
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:07 AM
Jun 2013

your grandchildren's phone records? If your grandchildren are in contact with terrorists through phone, and these terrorist commit a crime, Americans have a right to know why your grandchildren are having contact with terrorists.

I haven't felt any loss of freedom because the government may have my phone numbers. If someone hadn't told me I wouldn't have even known, and I really don't care.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
56. I don't think you understand the scope of what is going on here.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:33 AM
Jun 2013

I believe that the scandal is that they got a blanket subpoena for all the records from at least one division of Verizon. I understand that they have subpoenaed a similarly broad scope of records for several other telephone companies.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
97. Nope ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 10:52 AM
Jun 2013

Doesn't do a thing to explain how the government collecting me phone records will affect my life.

And, as to the video of President Obama opposing the Bush era iteration, that is too clever ... by half ... President Obama has done exactly what he said he would do; the collection is judicial, i.e., (presumptively) constitutional; it was passed and re-authorized by Congress and is being over-seen by Congress, i.e., presumptively legal.

This outrage inducing (for those with a bent for fantasy) program does not illegally wiretap of American citizens (there is a judicial process) ... it does not provide for National Security letters to spy on American citizens who are not suspected of a crime (it collect meta-data), nor is there a polical motive for operating the program.

What it does do is: provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our Freedom”.

mercymechap

(579 posts)
60. You're one of the ones
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:39 AM
Jun 2013

that would rather not find out that there is a terrorist cell that can do more harm, if the government had reason to believe that someone is a terrorist and wanted to find out who had accessed their number?

If you or one of your children is next in a terrorist attack, I'll bet you'll be the first to be screaming for the government to do something.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
105. I'm one of the ones who believes in both basic liberties and good police work
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:32 PM
Jun 2013

Sell your line to a coward. I'm not buying.

mercymechap

(579 posts)
114. Yeah, well considering how long it
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:33 AM
Jun 2013

takes police to solve crimes, we'd all be dead from another 9/11 if we left it up to them.

And being paranoid about the government being "a boggie man out to get you" can be considered more cowardly than allowing the government to use whatever methods necessary to protect us.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
115. You staked out a coward's position. You live with it.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:44 AM
Jun 2013

You're practically pissing yourself,talking about your fear of terrorism. It's not Opposite Day, and I'm not in the goddamned second grade, so I'm not real receptive to 2nd grade level games from children. If you're ok with the rape of the constitution, you're a goddamned coward. Are you?

mercymechap

(579 posts)
116. To the contrary -
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:50 AM
Jun 2013

I'm not cowering in fear over the "big government boogie man" like you are. I live in confidence that everything possible is being done to keep terrorists from attacking Americans here in our soil.

Frankly, if you're so damn scared that they are going into your phone conversations and finding out that you are involved in terrorist activities, you're the goddamned coward, not me.

brush

(53,475 posts)
45. How could Obama "bury that fact for 25 years"?
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:57 PM
Jun 2013

He was 26 years old 25 years ago and hardly the president. This stuff started even before W Bush. We can't fall for the repug dirty tricks of ginning up as many scandals as they can in the second term of a re-elected Dem president. We've already seen that movie, remember?

It was called "Clinton's Second Term".

Their tactic is to throw as much mud on the wall as possible to see what sticks and keeps everyone busy and consumed with it so nothing gets done to help the country and economy. Therefore repugs win in 2014 and if they keep the so called scandals going long enough, they think it will help them win in 2016 also.

Let's no fall for it.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
64. Why do you assume Obama "wants public support"?
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:48 AM
Jun 2013

Just curious, considering these facts:

1) He doesn't stand for election again

2) He showed absolutely no interest in trying to elect a favorable Congress in 2012 or 2012, so why would anybody assume he would act differently in 2014? Indeed, he neutered the Democratic Party. Both cycles, he set up his OWN organization and drained resources AWAY from the Party.

3) Is he acting like a person who cares about the people who voted for him? With executive orders, he could clear out almost 90 of the prisoners at Gitmo. He greatly expanded drone assassinations and only now is just getting around to thinking about some controls on them. He trashed the IRS instead of addressing the core issue, which is the abuse of 501(c)(4) organizations by people like Karl Rove. Reagan prosecuted 1000 banksters after the S&L scandal, Obama hasn't prosecuted a single one after the 2008 meltdown. I could give 50 more examples, but anybody here should know these things by now.

So again I ask, why should anybody assume this is a man who cares what his supporters think about him?

And if he had public support, has he shown any indication whatsoever of doing anything at all with that political capital? How quickly did he drop the gun legislation? How hard of a bargain did he drive on the Bush tax cuts? How many true progressives has he nominated for judgeships and other critical appointments? Hell, how many non-Republicans has he nominated? Has he taken a stand on anything recently?

Everybody is welcome to their opinion, but to me, this doesn't look like a man who cares about gaining public support, other than the kind of milquetoast support that historians can refer to in declaring his Presidency a significant moment in American history. That, I do believe he cares about. The rest of it? Not so much.

And this is coming from a guy who supported him early and pounded the pavement both cycles for him, just like many of you. That makes it worse.

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
5. Oh I too love the 'secret courts', the 'secret trials' and the 'secrets prisons'...indeed. /sarcasm
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:58 PM
Jun 2013

Oh...my Gitmo phone is ringing so I must cut this post short.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
59. No FEMA camps, but we sure do have private prisons that
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:37 AM
Jun 2013

have to be kept filled. And lots of camps for illegals.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
18. Are you really that naive?
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jun 2013

You do know that a "secret" court, is still a "court", don't you? People throw those terms around, but there have been thousands of trials throughout our history that have properly been sealed, or classified. Again, a judge makes the determination that...say, for example, we are trying someone who committed espionage, and we don't want his "partners" to know how we caught him, or maybe it's a Columbian drug lord, and we'd like to make sure we don't put witnesses or their families at risk.

Again, there are times when our government has a vested and valid reason to classify stuff. Unlike some other countries, we at least have oversight of that classification, and if it's found that the government is overclassifying something, or is engaged in malfeasance, we have a check on that through the courts and the Freedom of Information Act.

Please don't try to make us into Communist Russia.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
21. If you don't want to be like Communist Russia
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:40 PM
Jun 2013

...then perhaps you shouldn't support secret domestic surveillance of citizens just like the goddamned Russians did under Stalin and the NKVD.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
24. Really???
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:48 PM
Jun 2013

Was there an independent judicial review by career judges in Stalin's Russia? Am I missing something, or could you point me to the millions of American citizens that have been slaughtered because of their political views? Please show me where our Siberia is?

Your post is exactly what the wingnuts are counting on...and you don't disappoint.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
38. Well ...
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:41 PM
Jun 2013

He's spent the day spouting every other rand paul/libertarian talking point all day ... why not?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
54. Was that comment supposed to be a joke?
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:28 AM
Jun 2013

A secret court? The Constitution guarantees a public trial.

The Sixth Amendment

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment

"The right to a speedy and public trial." Please, please, read the Constitution.

And then there is the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

I don't know whether the decisions of the Supreme Court that approved of the government subpoenaing pen registers (the lists of telephone numbers) intended on such a blanket subpoena. They are collecting all the pen registers of every citizen. How can there be adequate probably cause for that? How can they particularly describe the place to be searched when they are searching the records of every American with a specific phone service?

They are simply disregarding the spirit and the letter of the Constitution -- again. This is disgusting.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
7. i think the nsa metadata collection is bullshit but find the current outrage over it suspicious
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:03 PM
Jun 2013

no republican is actually going to vote to defund it. they will beat the prez. over the head with it for political points but that is it. I have known about it for years and so have they.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
13. Of course they have
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:18 PM
Jun 2013

and unlike Mitt "fucking" Romney, I believe President Obama when he states that they have worked to ensure there is adequate oversight.

Hell, to get your knickers in a bind about this, you'd have to believe that thousands of career intelligence folks, thousands of legal experts, every member of Congress, the entire national security team, and dozens of federal judges...ALL OF WHOM swear an oath to our Constitution, are engaged in a conspiracy to track what porn sights you visit.

When in reality, all these programs are just a 1 tool of many that we rightfully use to protect our country from idiots that want nothing more than to see a smoldering hole where a city used to be.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
61. I believe that Obama voted to retroactively excuse the phone
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:40 AM
Jun 2013

companies for releasing our information. Can't blame the Republicans for this. Obama hasn't said a word to oppose this blanket surveillance. Not a word.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
84. no he support it, obviously
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:49 AM
Jun 2013

I oppose it. but outrage from the right is hypocritical. outrage from the left seems six years too late.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
12. They found judges to repeatedly issue warrants. Beats me how
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:14 PM
Jun 2013

a reasonable person could think that "all phone records for all americans" fits this requirement for a warrant. And, what probable cause did they provide for 300,000,000 people?

.... and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
66. It is called "Judge Shopping"
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:54 AM
Jun 2013

They manipulate the system to make sure the request ends up with a judge who will sign it.

Evidently that is not hard to do, but maybe a lawyer can provide more insight about that.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
14. Were you on another planet in 2000?
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:20 PM
Jun 2013

You trust the Federal judiciary after the Felonious Five threw the election to Smirk and Snarl?



maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
19. Again, we have a way to influence that
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:36 PM
Jun 2013

Maybe we shouldn't elect fucking Presidents that would nominate an asshat like Scalia.

Again, it's all in our hands. Sorry if I prefer that judges be nominated by President Obama instead of ...GULP...President Romney.

BeyondGeography

(39,284 posts)
101. Stop making sense already
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:37 PM
Jun 2013

Great thread, btw. Wish I could rec it 100X. Too many people on our side of the fence thrive on manufactured outrage. It gets so old.

okaawhatever

(9,453 posts)
16. The co-author of the wapo story, Laura Poitras certainly has reason to manufacture this scandal. She
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:24 PM
Jun 2013

has the third installment of a trilogy she is doing on domestic surveillance coming out soon. Guess who has provided her with information? William Binney, a 32 yr nsa employee. Sound familiar? It gets better. Who wrote a story about it before now? Glenn Greenwald. It seems that all of this is regurgitated information that didn't find traction last time. The case went to the supreme court late 2012 and was ruled on feb of 2013. Maybe she was hoping for a scotus ruling for her documentary and it didn't go anywhere. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:

On August 22, 2012 The New York Times published an Op-doc in a forum of short documentaries produced by independent filmmakers that was produced by Laura Poitras and entitled, The Program.[8] It is preliminary work that will be included in a documentary planned for release in 2013 as the final part of the trilogy. The documentary is based on interviews with William Binney, a 32-year veteran of the United States National Security Agency, who became a whistleblower and described the details of the Stellar Wind project that he helped to design. He states that the program he worked on had been designed for foreign espionage, but was converted in 2001 to spying on citizens in the United States, prompting concerns by him and others that the actions were illegal and unconstitutional and that led to their disclosures. The subject implies that the facility being built at Bluffdale, Utah is a facility that is part of that domestic surveillance, intended for storage of massive amounts of data collected from a broad range of communications that may be mined readily for intelligence without warrants.

HELLO FOLKS, this was published in Aug of 2012. Hmmm

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
39. Thank you, and again
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:42 PM
Jun 2013

the Bushies and crew are supporting Pres O's action because they don't want their laundry aired out. I believe Pres O, there is oversight and yes no one is listening to your conversations.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
93. They're pissed because Issa's scandals didn't work. This is classic ratfucking.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 03:52 AM
Jun 2013

Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 06:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for the information there.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
44. What the fuck?
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:56 PM
Jun 2013

Bush the Dumber sat around with his thumb up his butt with a major terrorist attack on his watch. And the fucking repukes are still around 12 years later.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
48. One word-BENGHAZI:
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:04 AM
Jun 2013

The Repuke propaganda/PR machine is much more powerful and would NEVER let AMericans forget. The investigations would drag on for 10 years.

Dustlawyer

(10,493 posts)
29. The Repugs through the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have stacked the deck in the Courts of
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:13 PM
Jun 2013

Appeals and everyone knows the 5-4 Court, otherwise known as SCOTUS.

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
32. Part Of Jim DeMint's "Don't Legislate, Instead Focus On Scandal"
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:19 PM
Jun 2013

This is an outcrop of DeMint's admonishment. Glenn Greenwald, meet Jonathan Karl -- you're both now carrying DeMint's water. How does that make you feel?

Both of these stories have been around since 2006. The original leak by Tice in 2006 was both more sketchy and more accurate regarding PRISM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

My first reaction was this was all old news so why is it coming out now as if it is something we didn't already know. My very first reaction was to look in the direction of Jim DeMint and his marching orders. Nothing has come out since to cause me to revise that initial reaction one iota. By the way, the Washington Post has now backtracked in a major way on its original story, implicitly admitting serious errors with their original report. This sounds like a replay of Jonathan Karl and ABC with the doctored emails. The source was unreliable but they went with the story anyway. MSM gets another black eye with a wildly distorted report. Like Rupert Murdoch likes to say, freedom of the press does not mean you have to tell the truth.

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
46. Yes, memo states that.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:03 AM
Jun 2013

Y'see the second half what Greenwald's number 2 article about cyber attack information was not picked up and run with, and yes other the story has been out since August 2012.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
63. Who cares? This is the first I have heard that suggested how
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:47 AM
Jun 2013

extremely broad the subpoena is. All the records from Verizon Business services. No. Please. Not.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
71. It was all the phone companies. We're talking about Verizon because that's the one that leaked.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:00 AM
Jun 2013

You can be sure they were going after them all. It is an oligopoly. T-mobile, AT&T, Sprint-Nextel and Verizon control 89% of the market.

Q: Why would they get a warrant from Verizon and not AT&T?

A: They wouldn't. Count on that.

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
107. The Reporting On This Is Rotten To The Core
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 05:09 PM
Jun 2013

This program was first exposed back in 2006. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Dredging it back up now is just part of the Republican plan put together by Jim DeMint to keep Washington tied up in "scandal" so they don't have to legislate. And from reaction here it looks like DeMint's plan is working to perfection. What made the 2006 story interesting is that Qwest at first refused to honor the request. The other thing was the complaints about wild goose chases with the data where those handling the work load complained bitterly about chasing down pizza delivery orders.

DeMint's folks are being clever here. I will give them that. Had they used the usual Fox News as the source it may not have gotten much traction so they were clever enough to "reliable" sources like the now mostly right wing Washington Post and Paul supporter Glenn Greenwald.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
108. Obama could very easily solve that problem by stopping the programs.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 05:47 PM
Jun 2013

I don't buy that this is a "Republican scheme". Obama has doubled down on all the most authoritarian Bush/Cheney schemes -- the only know exception being waterboarding, but we'll probably eventually learn that they have just changed the name of that and are still doing it.

This is all on Obama. He has made his choices and we have to live with it for the time being.

Instead of criticizing those of us who thing all this extra-Constitutional spying on innocent Americans -- searches without probably cause, you can point the finger at the one man who has in his power to correct the problem -- or at least stop it during the rest of his term. And if he won't do it, and that works to the advantage of Republicans -- well that is on Obama too.

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
81. But We Have Known The Broad Outline Of These Programs Since 2006
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:44 AM
Jun 2013

Once the data is collected there is another subpoena required that states what phone number(s) are being targeted, the purpose for the request and the data sought. The FISA court can then approve, reject or modify the data that can be collected. Also, many of the details that first came out are wrong and the Washington Post has both retracted and modified their original report in a manner that is far less sensational. In other words, more garbage reporting. Am I happy with the Patriot Act that allows all of this -- not in the least. But these reminders need to surface right before the bill comes up for renewal and not several months after the fact when it does little good. If fact, there was a leak last December outlining the very data quoted here but nobody saw it as the news item it was, thanks to MSM's selective reporting. Make no mistake, this is a Jim DeMint inspired story and MSM is carrying his water for him, even making it sound worse than it really is. Sound familiar? Some things never change.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
83. Obama promised to stop these indiscriminate collections of
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:47 AM
Jun 2013

information. He hasn't. That is the scandal here.

He has a chance to do something to end these absurd programs. I hope he will.

Here is Obama promising to end these programs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022968735

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
87. I, For One, Would Like To See A Report Outlining
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:18 AM
Jun 2013

Terrorist plots broken up because of this data, people arrested and brought to justice, etc. And I'm not talking about those cases where the FBI was the source of the plot -- like the guy that was supposedly planning to blow up the Sears Tower. Lacking this data, we have no idea on whether it is effective. It certainly didn't uncover the Boston Marathon plot and keep it from happening. In fact, this should have been central to the discussion a few months ago on whether to renew the Patriot Act. Quantify the effectiveness. Seven years is enough data for that analysis to take place.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
92. Agreed. If this has only netted a few alleged terrorists, it isn't worth
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 03:12 AM
Jun 2013

the encroachment on civil liberties and the movement toward a dictatorship.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
112. No he didn't
Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:12 PM
Jun 2013

He specifically said that he would "reverse the illegal and unconstitutional aspects of the Patriot Act" and he DID.

Let's not forget that the Bush Admin interpreted the law as allowing them to use "warrantless wiretaps". Now "that" was the "gubmint" listening to your conversations without a warrant.

One of the first things President Obama did was to conduct a complete review of these programs, with the goal of ensuring that they didn't violate legal or constitutional protections, and that adequate OVERSIGHT was in place.

Could you fucking imagine Dick "the Unitarian Executive" Cheney, or his puppet Bush, or Mitt "fucking" Romney doing ANYTHING that might be a check on their power???

That's one of the main fucking differences between Democrats and Republicans, and it's one of my main reasons for being a Democrat and rejecting the current Repuke Party.

Dems see a program like this and say; "yes, this can help us defeat people that wish to destroy our country, but we need to make sure we have adequate oversight in place"

Repukes see a program like this and say; "let's see how far we can go".

Be outraged if you like, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we are Democrats because THERE IS A VERY REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES

Want to see that difference up close? Just take a look at how Dems and Repukes exercise their role as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. Our military is very powerful, and they have been asked to do things over the years that I am not comfortable with, but I trust President Obama with that power a hell of a lot more than I do ANY FUCKING REPUKE

No one is asking that we disband the military...it's just that we trust this president AND I TRUST DEMOCRATS to use that military might properly.

I guess that's why I'M A DEMOCRAT and not a Repuke.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
113. Just listen to what the whistleblower is saying.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:02 AM
Jun 2013

He explains why we cannot tolerate this massive program that spies on us Americans.

This is incompatible with a democratic government.

Our government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people.

We are supposed to have the ability to communicate, consider problems, exchange information, meet and live and talk with whomever we wish. And we are supposed to enjoy that freedom of association, speech, press, religion and petitioning our government because we are a democracy, a government of us, controlled by us.

This excessive surveillance gives to those who have access to the data that is collected ultimate power over all of us.

Have you ever talked to someone who was involved in the surveillance system in Poland or East Germany prior to 1988? Have you ever talked to someone who lived in NAZI Germany?

Because this surveillance is worse and more encompassing than what the surveillance they lived through.

In my opinion, this program is yet another giant step toward a corporate dictatorship.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
33. Obama & Dem Leadership quick to denounce extra scrutiny of Tea Party but not the extra scrutiny of
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jun 2013

ALL the American people... what's up wit dat?

I am still hoping they come to their senses and do the right thing, or at least be consistent... why give preferential treatment to that kook minority but not the rest of us, it doesn't make any sense.

:shakes-head:

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
42. The President himself has admitted it!!!
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:50 PM
Jun 2013

He's downplayed its importance. But he's proudly said it.

Or are you going to demand a link because he admitted it yesterday and you can't remember already? Or are you going to parse his words because he might have given a less than full denial, even if he didn't have to.

The rest of what you said is pure fantasy. A judge would strike it down? lol. Are you an idiot, or do you think I am? Or both.

I don't fear the Tea Party now. They're too dumb. Almost as dumb as Obama's remaining faithful cadres. Obama on the other hand, isn't dumb. And he knows he can manipulate his faithful idiots just like the Koch Brothers manipulate the Tea Party.



boilerbabe

(2,214 posts)
58. YES, why did obama yesterday demand an investigation of the LEAK if this is old news??
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:37 AM
Jun 2013

looks like the defenders need to go back to the spin room and come up with better lies. this is too easy.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
47. "The fucking government is not listening to your phone call or reading your e-mail."
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:03 AM
Jun 2013

and you know this how? Maybe they dont read it all but they record it so they can read it if they want, when they want.

You know who I dont trust? The fucking Ruling 1%. They are in both parties. To think that they are is naive.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
80. Anybody who could make a statement like that must have been in a cave since 1993
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:18 AM
Jun 2013

Just look at the credit reporting companies for example. They have far less access to information than the Federal Government, yet they have a dossier on nearly every adult in this country that has some 400 descriptive statistics that tell them everything anybody would ever want to know about your financial life.

Look at what Google has been able to do just with their access to gmail content.

Let me paint a picture for anybody who really hasn't been paying any attention for the past 20 years. Here is how it would work. If this isn't already in place, it will be.

They can correlate the cell phone numbers with your identity. They know whom the numbers belong to. If they don't already have access to all that information that Equifax maintains on you, they can get it with a FISA warrant -- just have to find a friendly judge. Now they correlate your spending habits with your phone patterns. They can correlate that with any police activity. Every been arrested at a protest, for example? That can go into your "National security score". And now let's look at your online fingerprints. Do you engage in any political discussion, and is any of that hostile to the government? If so, maybe you are a threat. Correlation isn't automatic because most people use handles. But a small amount of investigation can make those connections.

And so on. The data is endless. Oh, and now they are getting location information from your personal tracking devices (aka cell phones). Were you near Boston around the time of the marathon? Oh, that could be bad for your "national security score".

OK. Next you "Googleize" those profiles. Some people will naturally have very high "National security scores" indicating they may be, how shall we say, "un-American". So we look at their circle of friends. If you have ever received a phone call from one of these suspects, that hurts your own score, and that in turn hurts the scores of everyone else in your circle of friends. So if you know somebody who knows somebody who knows the shoe bomber, that's very bad for your score. How do you like them apples, Kevin Bacon?

Have you ever been surprised by something on your credit report -- maybe identity theft, or a merchant got some information wrong? It is easy to get bad data into the database, and very hard to get it out. And that is when you have the right to look at the reports. Ladies and gentlemen, you have no right to look at your "national security score". That would only help the terrorists.

Is this description plain enough? Is there anybody who does not believe this is exactly where that data is headed?

brush

(53,475 posts)
96. Agreed. That's a lot of calls to be listening to
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 09:31 AM
Jun 2013

Especially with this austerity crap. Even without the sequester the government couldn't afford to pay the 10s of thousands of workers needed around the clock to listen to every phone call in the U.S.

There are millions of calls a day. Just the thought of that is ridiculous.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
49. I've said this ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:20 AM
Jun 2013

Probably 10 bazillion times (to crickets and/or strawman refutations); but I'll say it one more again ...

In order for Democrats to flip the House in 2014, we need that plurality of independent voters and gop voters (a majority when combined) that see the modern gop for what they are ... deranged, obstructionist with no interest in, or plan for, governing, to vote Democratic (unlikely that it'll happen), or vote for a moderate 3rd party republican (if there remains such an animal), or stay home (much more likely).

Polls indicate, to this point, President Obama (and his team) have been making all the right moves ... from the Chained CP proposal (that had the Left freaking out, despite the fact that everyone - except those on DU - knew was going nowhere) to the Democratic Senate budget (Okay, gop your move) to the "you can turn the sequester off" ... time after time forcing the gop into showing themselves for the unserious clowns they are.

Add to that, the modern gop's penchant for setting their own feet on fire on just about every issue ... we (Democrats) were looking very good, the House was in reach. So what does the gop do? They leak a 6 year old program, as something brand new, frame it as some existential threat to everything liberals hold dear ... and as on cue, we are met with a rousing chorus of "Democrats/Progressives/liberals" singing that 2009-10 song, "I'm never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to vote Democratic again!"

And we claim to be the smart ones.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
65. So. Let Obama renounce this surveillance that is indiscriminate
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:49 AM
Jun 2013

and overly broad. It's wrong. All Obama has to do is end it.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
74. First ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:03 AM
Jun 2013

it is the President's primary job to work to ensure the safety of American lives. He is doing that ... and rightfully, unapologetically so.

Second, read the history of those out-raged here at DU, and tell me about "all he has to do."

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
95. Yes, now I know why the troglodytes all us dummies. I've been disappointed at the lack of thought.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 04:00 AM
Jun 2013

And the knee jerk castigation of everything any Democrat or Obama does. Honestly, it's just like a conservative website, but it hurts much more, just as it's designed to do to us.

Ratfucking 101, brought to you by the GOP's Sangretti in the Nixon era. Working overtime now, and the Koch brothers are the ones paying for it. The stakes are huge, so of course they'll pay it. United we stand, divided we fall. It's sad.


 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
98. I have to constantly ...
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 11:03 AM
Jun 2013

remind myself that DU is not representative of the electorate or the population, in general.

My only hope is that the DUers with "constant hair on fire syndrome" are like the typical modern "activist" ... who put forth great effort, on-line, and are unheard unless you happen to be in their address book.

That gives those of us that actually make call, knock on door, on election day, drive the vans to get people to the polls, the space to operate.

 

Corruption Inc

(1,568 posts)
55. You mean the "Judicial system" that oks torture, Citizens United, Bush v. Gore, etc...?
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:29 AM
Jun 2013

You're right, most people don't trust it.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
86. Yeah, but who am I supposed to vote for?
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:58 AM
Jun 2013

MY party now stands for permanent tax cuts for the wealthy, killing Americans with no judicial review, destroying Social Security, insurance mandates, austerity, perpetual war, and spying on every aspect of the American people's lives. The GOP might be worse though in truth it's difficult to see how -- both parties are marching in lockstep to the cadence of their corporate owners.

Initech

(99,915 posts)
88. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hell, I'll shout it from the rooftops.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:24 AM
Jun 2013
THE REPUBLICANS ARE FRAMING OBAMA FOR THE CRIMES THEY GOT AWAY WITH UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH!!!!!!

This is the real issue here. The Kochs are manipulating the media to make it look like it's Obama's fault. It's Bush's fault. The warrantless wiretapping, the IRS scandals, all this crap happened under Bush. And the Republicans cheered it on then, even though it was a clear and vagrant abuse of power then, and it's an abuse of power now. But make no mistake, they are pinning Obama for Bush's crimes.
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
94. oh my word. come back to reality. learn just a fucking wee bit from the history
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 03:54 AM
Jun 2013

of the national security agencies. the very recent history.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
102. The president could help the situation by adopting some Dem and liberal causes
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:23 PM
Jun 2013

For reasons I can't quite come to grips with, he won't take the side of Warren, Grayson, Sanders and other real Dems on any issues, and refuses to fight the right on anything. For this reason many indies, undecideds, and newbies who were excited to vote for him are now thinking that their vote doesn't change much. So they will stay home at the mid-terms unless Candidate Obama suddenly replaces President Appeasement very soon.

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
106. See, it's ALL OUR FAULT that we don't buy into the LIES from DC.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:32 PM
Jun 2013

The sock puppets are out in force. That tells you that there is DEFINITELY something to hide.

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