Why do we so eagerly take to woo?

[Archae]

I mean medical woo.

That includes the anti-vaccination nutjobs and con artists.

Homeopathy.

Chiropractic.

Naturopathy.

Faith healing.

First off, how can we tell what is woo and what isn't?
Well, there are some sure signs a medical claim is woo.

Refusal to be scientifically tested, or after testing, claims that can't be backed up.

"Conspiracy" by the government/"big Pharma"/etc. to keep a product off the market.

Only evidence shown is testimonials.

"Ancient Chinese secret" or such.

So why do too many people go for woo?
Because medical science doesn't have all the answers.
So people go for outlandish claims.

"Miracle" cures.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. People who believe in pseudoscience have a misalignment of their chakras.

I have a friend that can fix that with crystal healing meditation.

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. lol

[RobinA]

8. My Friend

Is an energy healer, which beats your friend's crystal woo any day.

[eridani]

18. DUzy!

[burnodo]

100. +1

[Dash87]

58. Only a person filled with thetans would post that!

Report with your wallet to the nearest clearing session immediately!

[postulater]

2. Got any proof for your claim?

I'll wait for the double blind controlled studies before I trust anything you say.

[Archae]

4. My psychic, Miss Cleo channeled me.

[quinnox]

3. sorry, but I think "woo" is a stupid internet slang term

Hopefully it goes away like all the others did eventually.

[Archae]

6. So what do you call it?

Quackery?

Fake medicine?

Wishful thinking?

[quinnox]

7. anything but "woo"

I think I hate that one as much as I did- ....Wait for it - which mercifully, I hardly ever see anymore.

[Puzzledtraveller]

12. I agree quinnox

it's usage is condescending too.

[Laelth]

28. I suspect the word "woo" is here to stay.

It' a derogatory term for anything non-scientific that presumes to satisfy a human need but that lacks scientific proof of its efficacy. As a pro-science person, myself, I find the word useful, but I can certainly see how the word would be offensive to those who lack faith in science.

In fact, the word "woo" is designed to poke fun at those who lack faith in science. There are a lot of people like that in the United States. I doubt I am wrong when I suggest that many, if not most, of them vote for Republicans.

For what that's worth.

-Laelth

[Codeine]

85. Woo is almost certainly more prevalent on the Left than the Right, sadly. nt

[JoeyT]

130. Depends on which woo.

Crystal healing, tarot, acupuncture and the like are all more prevalent on the left. Faith healing, Christian scientism, exorcism, etc are more prevalent on the right. Anti-vaxx is split down the middle, though they tend to have different reasons, it still amounts to the same thing. Homeopathy and chiropractic are widely accepted on both sides too.

[sammytko]

35. What the hack is it?

[Twofish]

56. Completely agree.

Makes my skin crawl.

[G_j]

76. agreed! nt

[MattBaggins]

9. Homeopathy.. one of my favorites

I always ask them if I can be their Homeopathic car mechanic. I offer to change their oil for $5.
I will take a drop of oil from their car and add it to a gallon of water and shake it around and smack it with a leather belt while chanting and then pour that back into their car.

For some reason they never take me up on the offer yet they want to give me C500 extracts of Fecalis Canus.

[Puzzledtraveller]

14. So no homeopathic remedies work?

I suppose you love big pharma too?

[TlalocW]

17. Pretty much

If you look at the scale that homeopathic medicine makers use where the more a substance is diluted, the more potent it becomes, you see pretty quickly that after a certain dilution, not a single molecule of the substance would remain (this would be at what's known as the 13C level) , and the founder of homeopathy recommended dilutions of 30C or more. Basically, with any "true" homeopathic medicine, you could swallow everything in the packet, and nothing would happen.

TlalocW

[RudynJack]

41. Correct

No homeopathic remedies work.

[MattBaggins]

42. You are correct

No homeopathic remedies work.

No I am not afraid of some imaginary boogeyman.

[etherealtruth]

49. Are you conflating "homeopathy" with the term alternative medicine/ treatments?

Homeopathy is the quintessential example of quackery (woo).

Not all alternative therapies are quackery. Many (not all/ not even close to all) have been incorporated into 'mainstream" medical practice.

Yoga, glucosamine sulfate supplements, Omega 3 fatty acid supplements ... to name a few

Homeopathy = quackery ... in every instance

[Puzzledtraveller]

91. Probably

Ive seen the term homeopathic used in marketing on things that do not share the exact definition of homeopathic.

[Dash87]

59. Nope. None. The placebo effect doesn't count.

I can say with certainly that homeopathy doesn't cure a thing. It's distilled water, which has no health benefits.

[Iggo]

68. Yes.

No homeopathic remedies work.

[Codeine]

87. Of course no homeopathic remedies work.

You'd have to be lobotomized to believe such nonsense has any efficacy.

[Posteritatis]

106. I dunno, some might be a useful treatment for dehydration. (nt)

[eShirl]

141. Not true.

I personally know several non-lobotomized people who believe such nonsense has any efficacy.

[cleanhippie]

155. That is correct. No homeopathic "remedy" works

Any better than a placebo does. Ever.

[jberryhill]

10. It's bred into us

Looking for patterns in things, searching for cause and effect, and so on, got us off of grasslands and shorelines, and into huts.

If we weren't wired to suspect things, we wouldn't have science.

But, casually, we all misperceive probability and statistics. Why was it a national news story that the woman who won the lottery was let ahead in line by someone else? The unspoken assumption is an entirely magical belief that the winning ticket was inalterably destined to come out to person number 2 in that line. That's utter bullshit, but it is the reason why it was a "fun" story to some, and a portent of the gods to others.

We develop mythologies as a way of making sense of the world around us. Why do the seasons come and go? Why does the Nile rise and fall?

Tide comes in, tide goes out...

[Archae]

11. Agreed, and that's why conspiracy theories are so popular.

Humans hate the fact that shit happens.

"I stubbed my toe! It's the Illuminati's fault!"

[jberryhill]

15. But it's one of our better qualities

You don't get anywhere just giving in to "shit happens". You don't go from being a hunter gatherer to developing agriculture without thinking, "Hey, you know where I buried that seed a couple months ago? There's a plant there now!"

I mean, shit, how long do you think it took to nail down the connection between sex and childbirth? "I dunno... another baby came out of that woman I have sex with. Why does that keep happening?"

Even the idea that there is a "god" was taken as a suggestion, by some, that if there is a god who does things for reasons, then the universe might be a fit subject for rational inquiry, in order to figure out what god had in mind.

[randome]

34. Very true.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Archae]

72. What I meant...

When bad things happen.

There is a tendency in some people to blame "mysterious behind-the-scene forces" for what goes wrong.

John F Kennedy being shot by a guy so far left he couldn't stand living in Russia.

Gerald Ford having two women try to kill him.

A certified insane guy decided that an actress would fall in love with him if he shot Reagan.

Fundy Muslims hijacking 4 jetliners and using them as suicide weapons.

Mass shootings by nutcases in Colorado, CT and elsewhere.

We don't need some "Vast, James Bond-type organization" to pull off these.

They happen.

[jberryhill]

80. The OP asks "Why" do people do this

Eating is how we obtain nutrition and stay alive. Gluttony is a maladaptive effect of this beneficial system.

Keeping clean is how we avoid disease. Obsessive compulsive disorder is a maladaptive effect of this beneficial impulse.

Being suspicious of patterns of cause and effect are what has driven science and civilization. Paranoia is a maladaptive effect of this beneficial feature of the human mind.

The tendency toward fanciful conspiracies is simply a pronounced manifestation of a psychological attribute we share with very few animals. Recognizing patterns and suspecting deeper and larger causes is a component of what makes humans human.

As it specifically relates to medicine, when you have noisy statistics and limited exposure to large numbers of cases, the human mind runs through a list of "what did I do that made me better" and notes those things. MOST illnesses get better on their own anyway. So, if every time you had a cold as a kid, someone said "rub a rabbit's foot and you'll be fine in a week or two", you simply cannot dismiss as "crazy" someone who noticed that, indeed, they rubbed a rabbit's foot every time they got a cold, and every time they got better in a week or two.

There's no great mystery about it. If people were not marginally superstitious and paranoid to begin with, we would have never discovered correct patterns of cause and effect in the first place.

[annabanana]

61. It might even be hard-wired genetically.

Which is why it persists.

[Major Hogwash]

13. Did you know the federal government just approved another phen-phen type drug today?

In order to help someone lose weight, the newsman said, it tricks the person's mind into thinking that the person already "feels" full.

That's pretty sick shit.
And yet it is "FDA Approved".

[jberryhill]

16. A cure for hunger!

[Electric Monk]

19. Why do you repeatedly try to link/group/etc Chiropractic Medicine with Homeophathy? That's not cool.

This is far from your first thread like this.

[etherealtruth]

39. Though I appreciate the OP and the spirit of the OP

Like you, I do not believe chiropractic treatment falls in to this category.

A good Chiropractor does not promise miracle cures and refers patients to conventional practitioners when a patient or condition fall outside of their area of practice.

Homeopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy IS quackery

[RudynJack]

43. But many chiropractors

claim to be able to cure asthma, allergies, kidney malfunction, etc. The basis of chiropractic is correcting "subluxations" when there's absolutely no consensus what that word even means. I had one chiropractor trying to drum up business in a Costco show me by taking a model spine, lifting a vertebra, and rotating it. He said that happens to people's spines - the vertebrae just turn themselves around. It was nonsensical.

[etherealtruth]

46. You are, of course, correct

I should have qualified by my response by stating : when limited to a narrowly defined scope of practice.

[Archae]

50. The latest fad (if you could call it that) in chiropractic is chiropractic for babies.

No. That is quackery, 100%.

[etherealtruth]

51. Oh, god

[eridani]

136. There is a difference between theory and practice here

Chiropractic theory is just woo. Chiropractic practice is just an empirical subset of physical therapy.

[pnwmom]

138. When my son was in high school he did something to his back in PE

and was in excruciating pain, and the chiropractor our MD sent him to fixed him in about 10 seconds.

This wasn't woo. It was fixing something in his back that had gotten out of alignment.

[eShirl]

140. and then there are chiropractors like my sister's who peddle homeopathy and "kinesiology"

the kind of "kinesiology" that involves the patient holding a pendulum and observing the pendulum's movements in response to certain questions. It resembles/is a fortune-telling technique.

[burnodo]

102. My friend fell and hurt his back

He decided to go to his chiropractor, who did an " adjustment". Seventeen months later he's still having problems after having gone to a team of doctors and rehabilitation. He still can't lift more than a few pounds and he's in constant pain. I tell people they need to see real doctors when they're hurt.

[Logical]

142. So true! A scam IMO! n-t

[KT2000]

20. What is the purpose of this post?

No one is forcing you to utilize any therapy or treatment you do not want to.

You have had posts like this before and they are really just broad brush attacks of some sort. Do you work for an entity that is against alternative medicine in general or is this a personal issue with you?

[Scootaloo]

23. That's not the point

No one is forcing you to utilize any therapy or treatment you do not want to.

Do you think aromatherapy can cure cancer?
Do you think magnets on a necklace will "awaken your throat chakra" and prevent your acid reflux?
Do you think that gluing oxidizing pads to your feet will "cleanse your body of toxins"?
Do you think that ultra-dilute chemicals in a water solution are more potent than undiluted chemicals?
Do you believe that crystals produce a harmonic energy wave that can help wounds heal faster?
Do you think that thinking happy thoughts will call quantum particls to relieve your arthritis and reverse aging?
Do you believe depression can be treated by listening to whale song and seeking your totem animal in the stars?
Do you believe tiger penis soup will cure impotence?
Do you think that prayer is a better way of handling an allergic reaction than epinephrine?
Do you believe that goats should be sacrificed and the woman anointed with hteir blood before childbirth so that evil spirits don't steal the newborn?
Is schizophrenia best handled by calling in a priest to beat the hell (litrally!) out of someone during exorcism?
Was your fibromyalgia caused by fluoridated water and / or exposure to UFO radiation?
Do you believe that mixing water and beads will create infinite amounts of free electricity?
Do you believe firing a cannon at a clear sky will make it rain?

People do hold these beliefs. And each of these beliefs is just fucking wrong. The problem isn't that you're "forced" into it, the problem is that the promotion and acceptance of this dark age, snake oil bullshit, reduces and occludes scientific literacy among the public. In other words, it makes people stupid just by existing. Maybe that doesn't bother you. But it bothers me because it leads to a world where schools teach our kids that prayer and biology are interchangeable, it opens the gates for our government officials to insist a woman's body "shuts down rape," and it leads to public health risks when vaccines are avoided because a porn star tells you they're made of demon cum or something.

Nobody's forcing me to undergo acupuncture, no. But every idiot who does so has the net effect of making my community that much more stupid and enriching a charlatan to do it again.

[KT2000]

26. Again -

no one is forcing you to believe anything. Do you propose we outlaw beliefs now? Actually, you have it wrong about acupuncture - read up on it as there are studies proving its efficacy for pain relief.

I guess great scientists came up with the idea to prescribe two drugs for people with Type II diabetes. One is a tumor promoter and the other is a tumor suppressor. The "belief" or rather hope is that one will cancel out the other - not that the hope has been tested.
Some more great scientists came up with another diabetes drug that has been shown to cause pancreatic cancer in animal studies. The decision to keep marketing this drug is now in the hands of the politicians and their handlers - and they are great scientists too..

Your examples are silly. Maybe one of the most dangerous beliefs is that the FDA is there to protect public health.

[Scootaloo]

65. Who said politicians are scientists?

Profit motive and bureaucratic corruption skew medicine. This is not a fault of medicine or science, but of a for-profit capitalist system influencing them.

If you have type 2 diabetes, tell me, what would you do? Would yougo to a doctor who will prescribe you something, generally from a selection of these twelve medicines... or do you just guzzle colloidal silver?

Oh my bad, collidal silver is what you take in case of tuberculosis, HIV, and cancer

Don't give me this "your examples are silly." My examples are all totally "true" examples of "alternative medicine" from "traditional chinese medicine" to homeopathy to Kinoki detox foot pads to crystal healing, to Deepak chopra's "quantum theory of aging" to jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine horseshit, alongside faith healing, aromatherapy, and ayurvedic practice... I tossed in cold fusion and rainmaking just 'cause fuck it, they belong in there too. If you want to rush up to defend alternative medicine, you're telling me that hacking off a tiger's dick and eating it will improve your own virility. "But that's silly," yeah, so is the rest of it, even the garbage you might believe in.

I don't appreciate anti-scientific efforts to scam people out of their money, their health, or their security, nor do I appreciate the promotion of this bullshit, as it furthers scientific ignorance in our society. I think we're better off having escaped the times where disease was caused by demons, and medicine was seen as evil sorcery, don't you?

[KT2000]

92. the point is -

politicians are not scientists.
The point is also that pure science does not exist in our capitalist society.

There are certainly examples of fraud but I also see in your posts a lack of knowledge concerning alternative medicine.

[mucifer]

32. I'm a hospice nurse. Sometimes I do sound tuning fork relaxation

with my patients and/or their families.

They still get their medications.

I acknowledge it might be a placebo. But, if they like it and find it relaxing and I don't charge them a penny for it, what is the problem? I never make any scientific claims. I just offer it as another tool in the toolbox to help with relaxation.

Some people really like it. Others don't. If they like it, I do it once a week or so.

[etherealtruth]

38. What you describe is not quackery or "woo"

It is comfort therapy and it is a wonderful thing.

If you promised it would cure them, if you charged them for it, if you suggested it in place of treatment ... it would be woo or quackery. You do not, you provide it as a relaxation tool.

There is a wealth of scientific information that relaxation techniques are beneficial to people at end of life (and during most phases of life).

I don't think this is what the OP takes issue with.

[Dash87]

60. You see no issue with charlatans stealing peoples' money?

I've heard your argument before, that beliefs are innocent and anyone should just believe whatever they want.

Do you believe it's right for someone to be fooled into ignoring their cancer and relying on a quack faith healer or shaman to fix it for them?

There should be some accountability. Outright frauds prey on people's ignorance.

[KT2000]

63. beliefs are not innocent

the OP listed what he believes are frauds but it is not an accurate list. So who does the legislating? The OP, you, an elected board?
People make choices.

We are surrounded with fraud - Wall Street, TV infomercials, religious organizations and on and on.

[Posteritatis]

105. I love how these posts always draw out the "oh, you must be a paid shill" script... (nt)

[KT2000]

119. when the same person

posts several times on the same topic - not related to anything in particular - it does raise my suspicions. If you will notice, the post is vaguely written with what seems like the intent to slam any and all alternative therapies and label those who do use some in a derogatory manner. It is a smear job and when people do that, it is an indication of someone pursuing an agenda possibly for money.

There have been paid shills on this site before.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. It's an excuse to use the "anti-vaxxer" dog whistle.

It can atrophy from underuse, you know.

[cleanhippie]

156. Homeopathy is not "alternative medicine." It's not even actual medicine.

It's nonsense. For the nonsensical.

[KT2000]

159. Not really

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Homeopathy is part of what is called alternative medicine.
The reasoning for how it worked certainly sounds farfetched but we now know why it works - at least on some people. The process for making a homeopathic preparation include vigorous shaking which was and is done on a machine. It turns out what they were actually doing was nano-sizing the particles. Nano-sized particles of anything are taken up more easily than the large particles. They even found particles of the glass container in the preparations.

Nano-sizing is an easy process that you can do at home. Some people use a sonic cleaner to nano-size their vitamin C supplements for greater uptake. Of course you must use extreme caution to make sure there are no contaminants in the cleaner or the vitamin C as those would be nano-sized too.

[Scootaloo]

21. Because woo is cheaper than science

Do you spend a few hundred dollars to undergo a battery of tests and procedures and finally prescriptions to get you some relief for that mystery pain you've been getting?

Or do you spend $25 so some guy who smells like nag champa can stick a needle into your kneecap?

[Laelth]

30. Good point. I suspect that $ does play a role in making woo appealing. n/t

-Laelth

[Egalitarian Thug]

22. Because they work for some or many of those that try them.

"Science based" ignoramuses follow conventional scientific wisdom in exactly the same way that religious ignoramuses follow their fairy tales. Pretending that their preferred flavor of illusion is better that any other flavor.

[RudynJack]

44. Anecdotally, they work

when subject to real testing, the positive results seem to disappear.

[Matariki]

110. who cares when it's *your* anecdote?

I know two different people cured of lukemia and avoided having a leg amputated by methods you would call 'woo'. I'm certain they couldn't care less about 'real testing' - just grateful that they're healthy and still have their legs.

[RudynJack]

117. Then you should

let real scientists know how to cure leukemia.

[Ms. Toad]

24. Miracle cures like this:

Back Pain: The results of this trial suggest that Chiropractic Manipulative Therapy in conjunction with Standard Medical Care offers a significant advantage for decreasing pain and improving physical functioning when compared with only standard care, for men and women between 18 and 35 years of age with acute LBP.

Vertigo (BPPV): The patients underwent one or more canalith repositioning procedures (Epley maneuver). The patients in this case series demonstrated reduction in symptoms with chiropractic management.

Management of lower back pain in pregnancy: Women commonly experience low back pain during pregnancy. Both randomized groups received routine obstetric care. Chiropractic specialists provided manual therapy, stabilization exercises, and patient education to MOM participants.The group that received standard obstetric care demonstrated no significant improvements.A multimodal approach to low back and pelvic pain in mid pregnancy benefits patients more than standard obstetric care.

But don't take my word for it - go look at this fountain of woo and check it out for yourself.

[JoeyT]

131. There are different kinds of chiropractors.

There are the kind you're talking about, then there are the kind that believe in "vital energy" that flows from your brain and manipulation of the spine can alter that energy. Misalignments of the spine are the cause of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc etc. In the truest form of woo, one treatment cures absolutely everything.

The crazy ones are the original kind, the ones that actually believe in medicine are the reformers.

http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

[Ms. Toad]

134. The OP tarred them all

with one broad brush - one of the problems with using one.

[JoeyT]

135. Yeah, it's kind of an iffy field to discuss.

I had a friend talked into going to one that I knew was one of the believers in innate intelligence, and try as I might to talk him out of it I couldn't. I did plant enough reasonable doubt in his mind that when the guy wanted to manipulate his neck for a pulled muscle in his lower back he bailed out. He still got charged five hundred bucks for it.

Of course if the field wants to stop being criticized, they could stop granting licenses to people that believe in innate intelligence. I think it should be much easier for regular doctors to get a medical license revoked, too, fwiw. And once it's revoked it should be revoked everywhere and stay revoked.

[Warpy]

25. Pseudomedical horseshit

relies on easy to read, chatty articles full of anecdotes. for the most part, it does no harm. In some cases, like with chiropractic, it might even work on some people, shortening the duration of a garden variety back sprain by a couple of weeks. However, it's still harmless if it doesn't work (as long as you keep them away from your c-spine).

The anecdotes come from cheerful people who got a placebo boost from non working treatments

The only time this stuff runs into real trouble is when it claims to cure life threatening illness. Then it can be argued that it does do harm by having a patient wait too long for standard medical care to do any good.

I have no problem coexisting with a certain amount of rubbishy non cures because of the placebo effect. If basically healthy people get a lift form this stuff, it's fine with me.

If they'd recognize their limitations and stay away from the seriously ill except as an adjunct to either standard treatment or end of life palliative care, I don't think anyone would have much of a problem with it.

Unfortunately, too many of these charismatic frauds are relieving people of their life savings while watching them die of neglect.

I would love to see such people prosecuted, but such has never really been the case. It seems we will have to rely on families suing them out of business after the patient is dead.

[Laelth]

27. Same reason people buy lottery tickets, I suppose.

They're desperate. They're hopeless. They'll try just about anything to get healthy again (or to get wealthy, in the case of lottery tickets). The biological imperative to survive is immense, and woo gives some peace of mind even if it doesn't provide a cure.



-Laelth

[sibelian]

29. Truthfully? I think it's a lot to do with the fact that medicine in your country costs money.

#UKres

[Codeine]

88. Of course, woo is even more popular in Europe,

where health care is usually free or available at a very nominal charge.

[sibelian]

145. Well, I don't know about that.

There's certainly some. I think the *kind*of woo is different.

[madokie]

31. Personally I don't do woo

Makes me wonder what percentage of those who do believe in woo also believe in a heaven and a hell. What percentage of us who don't believe in a heaven and or a hell who don't believe in woo.
Be interesting to know

[SidDithers]

33. Because people believe what they read on the Internet...

and the Internet, including DU, is filled with badly and fraudulently researched woo.

Sites like naturalnews or lef make sciencey sounding claims, all the while trying to sell you something - books, videos, magnets, supplements, whatever.

And there is a dreadful level of scientific literacy and a scary lack of critical thinking ability out there. Too many people don't know how to evaluate what they read, or how to independently determine if they're being fed a line of bullshit. Credulous acceptance of nonsense is endemic.

Sid

[proverbialwisdom]

121. Were I interested in the general subject area, here's where I'd start reading.

http://nccam.nih.gov

[SidDithers]

124. No, you'd start with Age of Autism...

then dig through the woo at NCCAM, to find shit that supports the shit you already believe.

Then you'd tell us that Wakefield is a misunderstood hero, and has been unfairly targeted by the scientific establishment.

Then we'd all laugh.

Sid

[proverbialwisdom]

151. Not true, however, the BBC recently linked to Age of Autism as one of two "Related Internet Links."

Check it out. Scroll to bottom of page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22132428

13 April 2013 Last updated at 02:34 ET

ARTICLE

Related Internet links

Age of Autism: http://www.ageofautism.com
Public Health Wales: http://www.publichealthwales.wales.nhs.uk

BTW, do a site search for 'John Stone' at AOA to understand this completely legitimate BBC decision. Stone's detailed reporting is outstanding.

[In_The_Wind]

36. It isn't always woo. Alternative practices are being used in medical facilities.

Aroma therapy can sooth and calm. Lavender is already being used in nursing homes.

[LWolf]

53. Here's something interesting.

I lost my sense of smell in an accident more than a decade ago. Aromatherapy still works, even when I can't smell it. Whatever chemicals are in the "scent" that produce a result will get the same result whether I can detect them or not.

Just as toxic fumes are still toxic, even if I can't smell them. This I discovered early on; I was cleaning out an old stall in a barn that had been taken over by pigeons. I had years of pigeon crap to haul out. It was a 100+ degree day. I couldn't smell the crap, but I almost passed out and did vomit after about 20 minutes. So I finished by wearing a mask, and taking frequent breaks in fresher air.

[In_The_Wind]

57. I'm glad that you are ok!

So many harmful things are air-born. Bird poo becomes dust easily. Trust me on this: Living with 15 doves and 3 parrots is an education.

The way an essential oil is distilled from the plant can render the oil useless or harmful.

[Posteritatis]

104. You know what they call alternative medicine that actually does something?

"Medicine."

[In_The_Wind]

139. It works for me.

[etherealtruth]

37. ... because desperate people make poor choices

Intelligent people faced with hopelessness and dire situations may step out of their usual reasoned behavior patterns and attach themselves to any glimmer of hope they may find (regardless of how irrational and false).

Quackery is dangerous.

I am not talking about "alternative" or adjunct therapies used to provide comfort/ ease stress ... anything that does no harm and eases pain (be it physical, mental or spiritual) .... If it doesn't dissuade folk from effective treatment, doesn't give false hope (preventing folk from taking care of issues that need to be addressed) and doesn't prey on folk financially it is not what I consider "woo" or quackery.

If "something" has no basis in reality (science), dissuades people from seeking or participating in proven/effective treatment, gives false hope, and/or squanders someones financial (or emotional) resources... it is quackery and it is dangerous.

It is irrelevant whether the promoters of the quackery are charlatans, true "believers" or simply stupid .... quackery and its promoters are dangerous.

[sufrommich]

47. "desperate people make poor choices"

This is why woo exists,plain and simple. I guess I don't blame someone who is going to die for giving everything a shot,but the grifters making money off of them make me sick.

[ananda]

40. Well, there are three hot-button words in your title.

"We" -- who is "we" exactly and how many we's are there.. exactly?

"eagerly" -- Is that a fact on the ground, or an asserted opinion with
a bias?

"woo" -- Is that an objectifiable, verifiable scientific construct or just
another opinion with a bias?

I see something of an attempt to poison the well against certain beliefs
and practices that some might find useful or helpful.

A lot of people, including myself, do very well with alternative energy
and healing practices. I have found chiropractics very helpful, along
with the ER4YT diet formed by a naturopathic doctor. Also, I sometimes
find energy healing helpful, that associated with massage and breathwork
particularly. Of course, that is not to say that I (or "we&quot don't also use
allopathic doctors and practices as well.

My philosophy has always been to do my own thinking and try everything
I feel like trying. I particularly like the doctors here in town who think the
same way.

[MattBaggins]

45. There is no such thing as allopathic

You just dismissed your own argument.

[treestar]

48. Medicine in an art and a science

Some of the "woo" works some of the time. It maybe has some scientific basis, to a point. Or it true to a point.

Acupuncture, for instance. Some people will swear by it - it worked for them. Which may or may not be scientifically explain-able. But there's something to it.

Chiropractics obviously has some basis to a point, too. If it works for people, they are going to see it as valid.

[cliffordu]

52. Well....

[JustAnotherGen]

54. I don't know

But I hate how the science of nutrition and its healing power gets lumped in with this nonsense.

I also hate (being on the TTC treadmill) how QUICKLY medical doctors are to put women on DHEA and other steroids/hormones that really - they don't know if they work. Whereas an earth based midwife has handed down traditions of what works and what doesn't work in terms of fertility. Clomid/Micronized DHEA etc. etc. - I think they are hooey and don't work. I belong to a forum filled with women who will tell you -" I'm 28. Spent 100K on A.R.T. When I switched to a fertility diet and rosehip tea and imagery and yog and such for three months for about $100 . . . I got pregnant."

That which we can pick from the earth and ingest has power. When it's wrapped up in a shiny package in an infomercial for only three easy payments of $39.95 is when we should question it.

[Twofish]

55. Chiropracty and naturopathy are not 'woo.'

[MattBaggins]

99. Oh yes they are

Naturopathy in particular, is pure bull shit.

[KittyWampus]

122. So was giving women breast cancer by prescribing premarin also woo?

[Twofish]

64. Couldn't have said it better.

[RobertEarl]

66. I agree, Ela

Ela is native way to say Mother Earth

The OP is actually infantile and ignorant as you have so kindly pointed out.

[Puzzledtraveller]

67. I was told by someone I was anti science because I advocated aloe for minor burns

I was told it didn't work and that my attitude cost lives.

[MattBaggins]

103. Studies with aloe on second degree burns

showed it hindered healing.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3360818?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Ms. Toad]

133. Actually, no.

At least according to the abstract, that isn't what it showed.

"It is concluded that this preparation of Aloe vera gel hindered the healing process of the present burn wound model when compared with 1% silver sulfadiazine cream."

It may well have improved healing - just not as much as 1% silver sulfadiazine cream. No way of knowing from that particular study.

[Apophis]

73. I'll treat my cancer with chemo and you can use your healing stones.

Let's see who'll have the better odds of surviving.

[Puzzledtraveller]

93. Why does part of me think

that these are the same automatons that are completely cool with the NSA overreach?

[Apophis]

113. Those two topics are totally related, aren't they?

BTW, I am against the US govt. spying on its citizens.

[Apophis]

112. I'm sure you're one of those people who believe that vaccinations cause autism, aren't you?

[Apophis]

160. I'll stick to science.

Science has proven itself time and time again. How many people have been healed by healing stones and smelling salts? It's just as ridiculous as praying away the affliction.

[MattBaggins]

101. Naturopathy is western

nice try though.



http://crispian-jago.blogspot.com/2010/07/periodic-table-of-irrational-nonsense.html

[Logical]

143. LOL, please name the WOO topic you think has been proved.....

ESP
UFOs
ghosts
Etc!
I cannot wait to see your evidence that the nuts believing this shit are correct!

[Logical]

158. Woo is Woo. You "believers" crack me up! n-t

[Logical]

163. I believe you are gullible fool that believes anything! n-t

[proverbialwisdom]

69. Music break, science song. Hope a little off-topic levity is ok.

She Blinded Me With Science - Bill Parsons (Acoustic Cover).

[WinkyDink]

74. And Thalidomide!

[Archae]

79. And laetrile!

[Archae]

77. Enjoy your stay...

Anti-vaxx, anti-proven cancer treatments, woo.

[Apophis]

71. People who believe in woo are weak-minded wishful thinkers.

[Archae]

78. What "thought?"

Or who's "thought?"

[Zorra]

82. I know someone who lives their entire life in the world of New Age woo.

I spoke with this person this morning, and said, ~

"Ya know, you really have a totally different operating system than I do".

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe, but it is obvious to me that this person is seriously harming himself by believing in unpredictable delusions.

[SlimJimmy]

86. I don't why you listed Chiropractic. My wife has had amazing results for her

back injury. Better results than offered by her neurologist or orthopod in the previous three years.

Chiropractic.

[Archae]

89. Read this.

http://www.skepdic.com/chiro.html

Chiropractic is a scam, begun by a guy who was seriously deluded.
It only became "mainstream" due to political (NOT scientific) lobbying.

[SlimJimmy]

111. Call it what you want. My wife's chiropractor has made a postive difference for her.

He's not into all the holistic medicines, just spine and bone adjustment to relieve nerve and other orthopedic issues. Because of him, she's now able to play tennis and golf. I'll take that any day.

[derby378]

90. If chiropractice is only used to treat certain bone and muscular issues, it has some use

My niece's husband is a chiropractor, and the way he approaches it, it seems a lot more like physical therapy than anything else.

What I take issue with are chiropractors who make extraordinary claims about their discipline being able to treat organic illnesses and complex medical disorders with spinal adjustments. Unless they can prove their claims, they belong in the realm of woo.

[SlimJimmy]

107. I agree with what you've said. Her Chiropratic practitioner specializes in

sciatic nerve issues. He's really made a difference in her health.

[Logical]

144. Placebo effect! -t

[SlimJimmy]

146. Placebo effect that has lasted for a year, when the best option the others could offer

was high dose pain medicine or surgery? I don't think so.

[Matariki]

94. The chiropractor I see has done my back and shoulders a whole lot of good

what's your problem with chiropractors?

Your post is kind of silly.

[JoeyT]

132. Because there are different kinds of chiropractor.

Reformers (What you apparently dealt with) that believe in science and the old school that think magical energy comes from your brain and if it's altered while it comes down your spine it gives you cancer or diabetes.

From: http://skepdic.com/chiro.html

"Chiropractors think that by adjusting the misalignments they can thereby restore the nerve signals and cure health problems. This idea was first propounded in 1895 by D. D. Palmer (1845-1913), a grocer and magnetic healer from Davenport, Iowa. Palmer was a vitalist who considered intelligent energy to be conveying information among various body parts. There is no scientific evidence to support these ideas. Palmer called this vital energy "innate intelligence" and claimed it was connected to a Universal Intelligence. He even likened himself to Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and Mary Baker Eddy"

"Palmer claimed that he cured a deaf man, Harvey Lillard, who was a janitor by trade, by manipulating his spine. As Dr. Harriet Hall comments: "This makes no anatomical sense." Palmer also thought he cured a person of heart problems by spinal manipulation. He then leaped to the conclusion that he'd discovered the key to all disease. He wrote a textbook and opened a school. The rest, as they say, is history. Based on who-knows-what evidence, Palmer boldly proclaimed that "Ninety-five per cent of all diseases are caused by displaced vertebrae.""

[JanMichael]

96. If you don't want to try "alternative" therapies, then don't

but, the whole point of this silly assed OP is for you to stroke your ego. Pathetic. With all the horrible issues to think about right now, you are worried about someone taking a homeopathic remedy. I can't imagine being as bored as you must be.

[Iggo]

97. What you mean "we", paleface?

[olddots]

98. THIS WILL CURE YOU !

" oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang " repeat x2 then sing "ting tang walla walla bing bang " that will be 489 dollars at the cashiers please .

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. Because "profit motive" = "non-woo"

You can trust GlaxoSmithKline. Very serious people. Lots of credibility. No Woo there.

I think it's better to be skeptical of all of it.

[Archae]

115. Did you notice?

This company committed scientific and medical fraud.

And they are paying a big fine.

Kevin Trudeau owes $37 million because of his woo sales.
He has yet to pay a dime, and he STILL has lots of groupies.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2013/05/kevin-trudeau-chasing-the-dream-seller/

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. I don't see few reasons to recommend one over the other. n/t

[derby378]

116. A rebuttal from Tim Minchin

10 minutes long, but humorous and worth every second:

[bunnies]

114. Woo sounds sexy and Id like to hump it.

Chiropractic is not woo. What chronic disease do you have that gives you the license to ridicule the rest of us? I just turned 40 and have already lost 4 major joints to osteoarthritis. A natuoropathic treatment is the only thing thats helped. Ive just had Hyaluronic acid injected into my deteriorating joints. Its NOT approved by the FDA. Must be a joke then. Wooooooooooooo

I get the feeling you cant identify with someone who lives with pain 24/7. Must be nice to cheer from the sidelines. Go team.

[MattBaggins]

157. Yes Hyaluronic acid is unproven woo

Sorry to hear you are in pain.

Outraged that there is a scam artist, pretend doctor using that as an excuse to rip you off.

[proverbialwisdom]

120. I didn't write this and DO NOT endorse every claim, but it rebuts the "anti-vax nutjobs" silliness.

Handily, I might add. Please skim through to the end once before unfairly dismissing as "woo."

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/02/the-trouble-with-the-anti-anti-vaccine-movement-how-they-hijack-the-issue-distort-the-facts-and-tota.html

The Trouble with the ANTI “Anti-Vaccine” Movement: How They Hijack the Issue; Distort the Facts; and Totally Miss the Point

February 08, 2012
By Julie Obradovic


1. They believe there is an anti-vaccine movement.

This may surprise a lot of people, but there actually isn't an "anti-vaccine movement”. Although there are definitely people who believe no vaccine is a good vaccine, the controversy has never been solely about whether or not vaccines are good or bad; it's been about whether or not they are being used responsibly and have been properly investigated for their role in chronic health conditions.

The more appropriate term to describe people raising this important question would be consumer safety advocates, seeking informed consent, more research, product liability, and policy reform.

Only a few possibilities exist to explain why those who insist on using the "anti-vaccine" label anyway continue to do so: they erroneously assume anyone who questions a product's safety is automatically against it; they believe vaccines already are being used as responsibly as they possibly can be and have been properly investigated; or they choose to use a red herring label like "anti-vaccine" to manipulate people.

2. Anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot.

If the first line of attack doesn't work it will almost always be followed by an insult. Not only are people who disagree portrayed as dangerous lunatics who want to see the world explode in infectious disease, supposedly they are also "flat-earthers" who can't accept the world is round. Certain journalists have gone so far as to suggest it's no wonder their children have problems.

Such commentary is breathtaking in its insensitivity, entirely unnecessary, and most troublesome once again, not true. Even the CDC has recognized for years, most recently in a study on Hepatitis B uptake, that the most common demographic of a person who questions vaccine safety or refuses them is a highly educated mother with a master's degree.

When faced with this unpleasant fact, anti “anti-vaxxers” are left with little place to go. Some have started calling these parents “superstitious”, “defenders of pseudo-science”, or “conspiracy theorist” instead.

<>

6. They pretend to be the gatekeepers of science.

Gone are the days of limited access to information. With the advent of the Internet, scientific information is readily available to whoever would like it. While certainly this doesn’t qualify anyone who reads it as being an expert, it does mean that a new phenomenon has developed: consumer-scientists who question what he or she is being sold.

Combined with the mounting instances of pharmaceutical fraud, the lack of urgency or answers for Autism, and the availability of this scientific information, parents have become a critical voice of what they have uncovered: compromised research; conflicts of interest; non-sensical methodology; idiotic results; and unanswered questions.

When faced with these criticisms, the medical community has taken the position that lay members of society, such as parents, are unqualified to make these claims. They dismiss their concerns as embarrassingly amateur, not to be taken seriously. That may be so, except for one thing.

It was a lay member of society, a journalist with no medical background or scientific expertise, who first claimed Dr. Wakefield committed fraud. It was the same journalist who examined the research and concluded it was, then allowed to publish his findings in a medical journal. The medical community has made him their champion.

The double standard is astounding.

<>

10. They have an excuse for everything.

Everything regarding Autism is a coincidence. From the observations of the first doctor to identify the disorder in 1943, to the symptoms, to the timing, to the anecdotal evidence of parents, to the prevalence and incidence rates, to the improvement and recovery, all of it is considered best explained by coincidence.

When the rates of Autism began to skyrocket in the mid 1990’s, right after the amount of mercury tripled in vaccines, moved up to the day of birth, and more vaccines began to be added to the schedule, they claimed to have simply missed everyone that had Autism for decades prior.

As the explosion continued over the next fifteen years, and schools and doctors and parents became overwhelmed with the demands of these children, they claimed they were over-diagnosing. They took it even further and said it was parents, not them, who were actually to blame. Parents were greedily seeking services for their children they didn’t deserve.

(Perhaps this shouldn’t have been a surprise, however. Parents, especially moms, have always been blamed. Doctors hypothesized for years, until the 1970’s in fact, that Autism was the subconscious reaction of a child who felt their mother wanted to reject or even kill them. This is why Autism was originally put in the psychiatric realm and remains to this day.)

Now, almost twenty years into the epidemic, they have come to another coincidental conclusion. From 1943 to 1994, they misdiagnosed. From 1994 to 2011 they over-diagnosed. And now, in 2012, they need to UN-diagnose; thus the new DSM-V criteria.

The absurdity is stunning, if not criminal. By their own admittance, they have no idea what they are doing. One wonders if they even realize they are nullifying all of the science done on Autism thus far with this change. For if you still don’t even know what Autism is, how can you have appropriately studied what causes it?

11. They fail to recognize their tactics aren’t working.

Were I not an educator who has grown accustomed to separating the critique of my profession from myself, I’m not sure I would be able to say the things I have. This essay is an indictment of the medical-industrial complex, not an individual.

I have just thoroughly and thoughtfully laid out the position for why the vaccine controversy continues. I will continue to do so as long as I live, or until at which time it is no longer necessary. I am confident other parents like me will do the same. Calling us names, censoring our stories, or dismissing our concerns will not deter us.

Until then, it is simply not true to say there is nothing to debate. It is simply inexcusable to censor or stop the conversation. It is simply juvenile to use insults to describe those who refuse. And mark my words; it’s a waste of breath.

Parents, the consumers of these privately made products mandated for use by their government and given to them by their doctors, will fund and complete the science they demand. It is not a matter of if, but when. Hell hath no fury like that of a parent scorned, especially one told that their life is lie and that neither their child nor their suffering matters.

It is time for everyone to remember what we are seeking: health and wellness for all of the world’s children. We simply disagree on how to best attain it. The tactics being used to dismiss us serve no purpose other than to prolong it.

Julie Obradovic is a Contributing Editor to Age of Autism.
Posted by Age of Autism at February 08, 2012 at 5:44 AM

More, GOOGLE: anti-vaxxers site:ageofautism.com

[Archae]

123. "Age Of Autism" is a total bullshit web site.

And that article you posted is no exception.

They have come to the conclusion that vaccines cause autism, and *ALL* the scientific studies (which is all the studies, period,) that say vaccines do not cause autism are all a *BIG* *LIE* from the Pharma companies.

Even though they *STILL* tout the fraud of Andrew Wakefield, consider a Playboy model to be an "expert" on autism.

Autism is a form of mental illness.
Like schizophrenia.
Bipolar.
Clinical depression.

And so on.

You can stamp your feet and wave your hands screaming "Is no, is not, IS NOT!" until you turn blue in the face.

Science destroys your woo.

[SidDithers]

125. The poster you're replying to is a defender of Andrew Wakefield...

which pretty much means that everything else they post can be immediately ignored.

Sid

[Archae]

127. Not surprised.

And now we see the ultimate (well almost ultimate) example of woo combining with the right wing.

Rand Paul calling mental illness a "hoax."

[proverbialwisdom]

129. Heard of Dr. Poul Thorsen?

http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/04-13-11.html

AUTISM RESEARCHER INDICTED FOR STEALING GRANT MONEY
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

April 13, 2011

Thorsen Allegedly Absconded With Over $1 Million

http://www.safeminds.org/government-affairs/documents/Thorsen%20Background%20Report%20-%20Nov%202012.pdf

Background Report Poul Thorsen, MD, PhD
CDC Researcher – Fugitive from Justice

November 2012

Tax evasion, money laundering, wire fraud, violations of dual employment regulations leading to dismissal from a leading research university -- all connected with embezzling grant money through an elaborate scheme of falsifying invoices and forging signatures.

With all these criminal irregularities, how can anyone trust the data this researcher produced? Why haven't calls for retracting his studies gone out? The money aside, Poul Thorsen’s research has had a profound influence on vaccine policy – both here in the USA and abroad. Ultimately the health community’s acceptance of his research as being beyond reproach raises concerns about the safety of all children receiving vaccines. If data were altered to fit the desired outcomes, then outcomes using this research become tainted, especially the National Academies of Science Institute of Medicine’s (IOM) strong reliance on his work for determining the potential for harm from thimerosal in vaccines. The details of these issues are summarized in this report.

SafeMinds is a non-profit organization founded to restore health and protect future generations by eradicating the devastation of autism and associated health disorders induced by mercury and other man made toxicants. As part of SafeMinds' ongoing activities to inform the public and policy makers about the many research irregularities that continue to undermine the public trust in government health agencies and impede progress in curtailing the epidemic increase of autism rates, we are making available a background report on Poul Thorsen, a key figure in the building of a shaky foundation of research that denied justice to thousands of families whose children suffered a vaccine related neurological injury (brain and nervous system) that developed into autism spectrum disorder (ASD or autism).

This information has previously been provided to Congressional staff as part an ongoing education program to bring legislators' attention to the needs of the autism community including those who came to the community as a result of a vaccine related brain injury. With the recent announcement that Dr. Thorsen was placed on the top of the “Most Wanted” list form the Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS); SafeMinds has decided to make this full report public.

<>

[Posteritatis]

148. The fact that people are *still* Wakefield fanboys at this point is stunning. (nt)

[proverbialwisdom]

150. Prove it. Hint, you can't. I deliberately choose not express 'opinion,' I post INFORMATION.

My posts on the subject are careful, intellectually rigorous, and also devoid of opinion (exception; Blaxill's Galileo Award op-ed). Sorry, Sid, tagging me as 'a defender of Andrew Wakefield' is not a rebuttal, it's name-calling, and SIMPLY WHAT YOU HAVE INFERRED from fact-based posts, none ban-worthy. That ought to give you serious pause. This is an example:

Here's a press release about a study recently published in a peer-reviewed journal. I added the underline in critical note #3. (FYI, Professor/Dr. John Walker-Smith is regarded as the co-founder of the field of pediatric gastroenterology with Harvard Professor/Dr. Allan Walker).

http://www.jabs.org.uk/

CryShame Press Release - 9 March 2013

http://www.cryshame.co.uk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=156

Important new research ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058058 ) reports similar findings to the work of Dr Andrew Wakefield in the 1998 Lancet and in subsequent paper in the early 2000s

Groundbreaking new research examines the molecular structure of inflammatory material taken from the bowels of autistic children. It compares the structure of diseased biopsies in the autistic children with biopsies from three groups of non-autistic children with Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, and histologically normal (the controls).

Previous research confirmed the pathological and immunological make-up of biopsies of autistic children, but had not to date identified its specific molecular structure. Children with the four different conditions have been found to have similar findings of inflammation. But it was not clear if this was the same condition shared by all four groups; or if a distinct condition was specific to autistic children alone; or if indeed there was no disease in the autistic group. A molecular analysis of the genetic structure found in the inflamed bowel tissue of children in each group would provide initial answers to these questions.

To date government and medical scientists continue to deny an association between autism and bowel disease. In the UK there is currently no research into the association between autism and chronic bowel disease. This has been the predicament since the government and medical profession waged a campaign to discredit research from the Royal Free Hospital led by Dr Andrew Wakefield in 1998 and the early 2000s that first identified the presence of bowel disease in autistic children.

Following years of denial from government and the medical profession, new research published in the leading online journal PLOS ONE confirms the presence of intestinal disease in autistic children and supports reports from many parents of ongoing painful gastric problems in their autistic children.

The research studied bowel samples from 25 autistic, 8 Crohn's, 5 ulcerative colitis and 15 normal control children and found that inflammatory material obtained from the biopsies of autistic children had a distinct molecular structure that was different from the other three groups.

This is an important finding of the distinct genetic expression that has now been identified in autistic children as distinct from non-autistic children with Crohns, ulcerative colitis and normal bowels. It paves the way for future research into the specific molecular structure of the inflammation affecting autistic children and hopefully will lead to new interventions and treatment.

Background Notes

1. The first paper to bring to public attention the presence of bowel disease in autistic children was Wakefield AJ, (1998) 'Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children'.The Lancet published this paper in 1998 but subsequently retracted it in 2010 after the GMC found Dr Wakefield and Professor Walker-Smith guilty of serious professional misconduct.

2. Several former colleagues went on in the early 2000s to study the nature of the bowel disease in autistic children, focusing on the pathology of gut tissue and the presence of autoimmune features in the bowel (eg Furlano et al (2001) 'Colonic CD8 and ?? T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism', Journal of Pediatrics, Vol. 138, 3).

3. The senior research leader of the Lancet and subsequent papers was Professor John Walker-Smith who in March 2012 had all the charges of professional misconduct made by the GMC quashed on appeal by Justice Mitting in the High Court.

4. Government Minister admits more needs to be done to research autism and bowel disease. Read letter here: http://www.cryshame.co.uk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=135

http://www.plos.org/publications/journals/
http://www.plosone.org/static/information;jsessionid=7DA60CC5CF2F98E78452E6D220657239

PLOS ONE Journal Information

PLOS ONE (eISSN-1932-6203) is an international, peer-reviewed, open-access, online publication. PLOS ONE welcomes reports on primary research from any scientific discipline. It provides:
•Open-access—freely accessible online, authors retain copyright
•Fast publication times
•Peer review by expert, practicing researchers
•Post-publication tools to indicate quality and impact
•Community-based dialogue on articles
•Worldwide media coverage

Again, conclude what you wish. The future looks promising for sorting all this out, I'd say.

[SidDithers]

152. Keep denying it...

but anyone can search your username, and Wakefield, and see what you've posted.

Sid

[proverbialwisdom]

128. Lack of nuance does great disservice to that argument.

In fact, if you read AOA you'd know that "On May 30, 2013, there was a piece on SCOPE, the Stanford University Medical School site, with the title, 'Director of Stanford Autism Center responds to your questions on research and treatment.'" Check it out.

http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/05/30/director-of-stanford-autism-center-responds-to-your-questions-on-research-and-treatment/

<>

"How meaningful are environmental factors, such as nutrition and exposure to toxins during pregnancy, in terms of autism risk?"

Feinstein's answer:

"During pregnancy, proper nutrition and taking reasonable measures to avoid exposure to known environmental toxins are basic steps an expectant mother, and family, can take to promote a baby's health and minimize risks of medical problems for the newborn. This principle certainly applies to giving birth to a baby with a healthy brain and nervous system, and pregnant women should consume proper nutrients to support brain development. There are a number of known toxins, including lead, alcohol, mercury, tobacco, various insecticides, petrochemical products and some medicines that are harmful to fetal development. An important area of concern is our current environment and findings showing that food and water sources, and other common materials, can contain man-made chemicals.

"A great deal of scientific attention is now being focused on the potential consequences of some of these chemicals on the bodily organs, including the brain, as well as possible mutagenic or harmful effects on the reproductive organs and human genes. There is a very real basis for concern that environmental toxins play a direct causative role or increase the risk for neurodevelopmental disorders, including ASDs. There is now much research underway to discover what types of chemicals present in the environment might be causatively implicated in ASDs."

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/06/sanford-us-dr-carl-feinstein-responds-to-autism-questions.html

June 3, 2013
Stanford U's Dr. Carl Feinstein Responds to Autism Questions
By Anne Dachel

<>

Feinstein didn't tell us that all the autism is just better diagnosing of a genetic disorder that's always been around. He knows that environmental toxins are major players in neurological disorders like autism. He even knows about the mutagenic effects they have. He specifically cited MERCURY as a factor. Yet for some reason, he's not willing to talk about the horrendous level of untested mercury allowed in the majority of the flu vaccine that is recommended for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. He didn't mention anything about the other issues in the vaccine-autism debate like aluminum, human fetal cells, and the live viruses in the MMR vaccine.

"At present, it appears very unlikely that vaccines of any type are a meaningful causal factor in the vast majority of cases of ASDs."

That statement seemed to settle the issue, or did it?

"At present..." Does that mean that in the future vaccines may be shown to cause autism?

"It appears very unlikely...are a meaningful factor..." That's not the same thing as "there is absolutely no connection between vaccines and autism."

"In the vast majority of cases." So vaccines may be a casual factor in SOME cases?

Feinstein sounded a lot like Dr. David Amaral from the MIND Institute at UC-Davis and Dr. Martha Herbert from Harvard.

Check this out, also.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html

March 31, 2011 11:32 AM
By Sharyl Attkisson

...The article in the Journal of Immunotoxicology is entitled "Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes--A review." The author is Helen Ratajczak, surprisingly herself a former senior scientist at a pharmaceutical firm. Ratajczak did what nobody else apparently has bothered to do: she reviewed the body of published science since autism was first described in 1943. Not just one theory suggested by research such as the role of MMR shots, or the mercury preservative thimerosal; but all of them.

Ratajczak's article states, in part, that "Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis following vaccination. Therefore, autism is the result of genetic defects and/or inflammation of the brain."

As always, for those individuals happy with the condition, it's simply neurodiversity.

[proverbialwisdom]

167. FYI - Out of the Mouths of Babes:"Autism is a Sickness Where Your Tummy Hurts and You Can't Talk"

Sure, it's an anecdote, unscientific and unverified, but I thought you might be interested.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/06/out-of-the-mouths-of-babes-autism-is-a-sickness-where-your-tummy-hurts-and-you-cant-talk.html#more

Out of the Mouths of Babes: "Autism is a Sickness Where Your Tummy Hurts and You Can't Talk"
By Cody Jordan

This conversation started from Harrison noticing me wearing a new pair of flip-flops (the ones from Healthy Souls that benefits Generation Rescue). They were the first flip-flops I’ve ever had, but for the first pair, it was like it was meant to happen.

Harrison saw me wearing them (my sandals) and said, “Dad, you have new shoes!”

This started a conversation which was one of the biggest turning points in his recovery: identifying with autism for the first time. I pointed to the “a” in the puzzle piece (on the sandal) and asked, “Do you know what this is?”

Harrison replied, “It’s a puzzle piece.”

I asked, “Do you know what the “a” means?”

Harrison looked at me and replied, “Autism.”

I had never heard him say ‘autism’ before, so I asked, “Do you know what autism is?”

Harrison replied, “It’s a sickness.”

I asked another question, “What kind of sickness?”

Harrison pointed to his stomach and head saying, “Where your tummy hurts and you can’t talk.”

I was in a state of amazed shock at this point and wanted to keep it going, so I said, “But you can talk now, and you’ve said for awhile that your tummy doesn’t hurt anymore.”

Harrison looked up at me, “Yes, I’m getting much better now.”

I asked him, “How did you get better?” and he answered, “Dr. Usman, Dr. Krigsman, and Dr. Michele (his primary care), are all taking away my autism.”

I could barely squeak out, “Do you remember what it was like when you couldn’t talk?”

Harrison answered, “Yes, it was the sickness, but now I’m much better. Can I watch YouTube now please?”

Through a heavy layer of tears, I was barely able to answer, “Yes.”

Harrison looked up and saw my tears. He got up and hugged me saying, “Dad, don’t be sad. I love you.”

<>

Cody is the father of 8-year old (and over 90% recovered from autism) Harrison and his 4-year old brother, Isaac....
Posted by Age of Autism at June 20, 2013 at 5:45 AM

[Archae]

126. And here's when woo combines with right-wing bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022974476

Senator Rand Paul believes mental health is a hoax; legislation pending

[pnwmom]

137. My father used the "woo" of a chiropractor to deal with

shooting pains in his back and down his leg, so he could get out of bed and walk around.

An MD sent him there, and the "adjustment" worked a lot better than painkillers.

[sagat]

153. Consumers of woo are morons, plain and simple.

[Fire Walk With Me]

161. An MRI was unable to detect a serious problem a chiropractor solved in a single session.

Your mileage may of course vary.

I was once rear-ended rather badly while my vehicle was stopped, waiting for the light to change. BAM! from behind. Had a fuzzy feeling across my right side I wrote off to adrenaline which increased day after day until my entire right side had become numb. When it began spreading to my left side, I had an MRI done. Nothing. Perhaps I got lucky with the "right" chiropractor. Perhaps not? I don't know, but I was fixed, and fixed well.

[DirkGently]

164. Because people inherently sense we are missing information.

I dislike irrationality as much as the next person, but a lot of what militant skeptics arrogantly dismiss as "woo" is a reflection of a very correct sense the mainstream world in general grasps only a fraction of reality.

The wise know that they do not know.

A lot of people have bad experiences with doctors who run a couple of tests for basic, well-understood maladies, then appear to lose interst when there's not a simple drug to prescribe or procedure to run. There's very little time, money, or interest in exploring ways to help people that don't fit into convenient packages.

And there is a smugness, an almost irrational-in-itself resistance by those who know some, against the suggestion they might be missing something. Sometimes the problem is the old one -- if there is no money to be made, no drug to be patented, no costly surgery to perform, the motivation to explore is weak. Institutions and their inhabitants develop inertia -- resistance to new or different thinking -- that can wind up suppressing valid ideas. Scientific "revolutions" rarely occur until there is a heavy accumulation of evidence, before the paradigm will shift.

Acupuncture, for example works for some types of pain. It's fraught with what you call "woo," mysterious explanations involving "chi" and burning incense, but, hey, look, closer examination has demonstrated it can work, by processes we could not analyze before. Something with all the hallmarks of "magical thinking" is in fact not magic, but reality.

People are vulnerable to irrational thought, yes. But the impulse to grasp something new or not yet accepted is not a wholly irrational one in itself.

Sometimes "woo" turns out to be "troo."

[Berlum]

165. Why do so many eagerly embrace Poo?*

*BS Scientific Materialistic Limited-Constipated Ideation

[Archae]

166. This is one result of anti-vaxx woo.

Auckland parents Ian and Linda Williams thought they had made an informed choice not to vaccinate their children, but after their son ended up in intensive care with a tetanus infection they realised they had made a terrible mistake.

"The mistake that we made was that we underestimated the diseases and we totally over-estimated the adverse reactions", says father Ian Williams, who is speaking publicly of his family's ordeal in an effort to warn other parents about the dangers of not immunising their children.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/06/06/3776327.htm