Great response in a reddit discussion about "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".

[Hosnon]

A bit long but well worth it. Credit to /u/161719

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

[Blecht]

1. Thanks for sharing

I think this is perfect except for the last few words: "[...] it is time to stand up and say no." That ship already sailed a long time ago.

If people do not recognize this, they weren't paying attention during the crackdown on Occupy.

[premium]

2. Great article.

Thanks for posting this. Our govt. agencies are totally out of control, NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF, DEA, etc.
I wish we had another Frank Church in the congress, he had to balls to take on these alphabet letter agencies and actually reined them in for awhile.

I really fear for our country and the direction it's headed in.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. Today's "Frank Churches" have been bought off...

...by the corporatists via lobbying.

[premium]

10. Sadly, that is so true. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Or voted out

Or killed off.

[RudynJack]

3. as a redditor

tl/dr

[Melinda]

55. As a fellow redditor, tl/dr is understandable in many instances - but this?

Considering the subject matter and given the fact you're posting on a political message board?

Senseless. Maybe you'd be more comfortable in r/explainlikeim5.

There are 3 kinds of people in this life:

1. People making things happen.
2. People waiting for things to happen.
3. People saying "What happened?"

TIL that some people simply watch the parade. Have fun with that.

[RudynJack]

56. Did you not see the smiley face?

It was a joke.

[Arkansas Granny]

4. This should give us all something to think about.

[JayhawkSD]

5. Original poster shames us all.

We are going to say, "yeah, but..." and throw a lot of meaningless phrases areound, like "American exceptionalism" and "keeping us safe from terrorists" and "trade offs."

Democrats and Congress people are already saying that it's okay because we can trust Obama not to do anything pernicious with it. I don't know whether I do or not, but that's not the point. Our government is supposed to be restrained by its design such that we do not have to trust individuals.

[GoneFishin]

6. incredibly eye opening.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Could not have said it better. If you think for a minute that

as this austerity shit continues to the point of some serious social unrest that our corporate masters won't use this data to reign us in, you have learned nothing from the repression of Occupy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I grew up in a country that never got to the point of the OP

We still had to watch what we said in the streets as children, and on the phone.

It is little by little.

[LittleGirl]

12. newbee to reddit and I like what I read

especially this. I believe it's real. Very damn real in parts of the world that are being silenced.

I do not want THAT to come here and if it does, I'm leaving. I'll take what I can and sell the rest; if I can.

I do not want the police state and I'm not a fearful person but that post is brilliant.

I approve this message.

[niyad]

13. k and r--this should spark a few arcing brain cells.

[hypergrove]

14. With Safety & Security for All

Our new pledge of allegiance ???

[niyad]

16. don't forget--if we trust congress, we have nothing to worry about.

[niyad]

15. "if you have nothing to hide" is the meme of the police state, meant to short-circuit thinking, with

the person needing to say "sure, go ahead" I have been hearing that line since the 60's--it was bs then, it's bs now.

[annabanana]

17. BOY HOWDY is this ever a MUST READ!!

Tweet this facebook this digg this and send it to every media outlet you can think of!

(& see my sig)

[DLevine]

18. Huge K&R. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

19. A big DU Rec.....even if that might mean

that I am now an enemy of the state.

The most frightening statement in this article is: "It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons." We all think that we could not do things that we know to be wrong and that can hurt people, but we just never know.

[OnyxCollie]

24. "It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons."

The concept of interest defined as power imposes intellectual discipline
upon the observer, infuses rational order into the subject matter of politics,
and thus makes the theoretical understanding of politics possible. On the
side of the actor, it provides for rational discipline in action and creates that
astounding continuity in foreign policy which makes American, British, or
Russian foreign policy appear as an intelligible, rational continuum, by and
large consistent within itself, regardless of the different motives, preferences,
and intellectual and moral qualities of successive statesmen. A realist theory
of international politics, then, will guard against two popular fallacies:
the concern with motives and the concern with ideological preferences.

~snip~

Yet even if we had access to the real motives of statesmen, that knowledge
would help us little in understanding foreign policies, and might well
lead us astray. It is true that the knowledge of the statesman's motives may
give us one among many clues as to what the direction of his foreign policy
might be. It cannot give us, however, the one clue by which to predict his
foreign policies. History shows no exact and necessary correlation between
the quallty of motives and the quality of foreign policy. This is true in both
moral and political terms.

We cannot conclude from the good intentions of a statesman that his
foreign policies will be either morally praiseworthy or politically successful.
Judging his motives, we can say that he will not intentionally pursue
policies that are morally wrong, but we can say nothing about the probability
of their success. If we want to know the moral and political qualities
of his actions, we must know them, not his motives. How often have
statesmen been motivated by the desire to improve the world, and ended
by making it worse? And how often have they sought one goal, and ended
by achieving something they neither expected nor desired?

Morgenthau, H. (1948). Politics among nations: The struggle for power and peace (pp. 5, 6). New York: Knopf.

[superpatriotman]

20. Great. Now condense it to a bumper sticker

and go tell it on the mountain...

[ZRT2209]

21. Some GOP senators have had people arrested for even calling their offices

they called it "harassment" and called the police and Capitol Police

so you can't even call to ask a question or complain, because no one is going to take your word over Dickhead's staffer's

[Rozlee]

22. When Democrats and Republicans agree on something...

I know a good ass hurting is on the way for the rest of us. Like Pastor Niemoller's "First, they came for...," you just know that the last person left to speak up for you is being drowned out by choruses of "It's what's best for the country."

[MotherPetrie]

23. K&R

[OnyxCollie]

25. But then it was too late.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

~snip~

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way."

Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45

[snagglepuss]

26. to read later.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

27. If only everyone could understand this!

[pitbullgirl1965]

28. Spot on.

That line of thinking has irked me, and I never have a good comeback. The thing is they *are* monitoring left wing groups and have for years. Meanwhile Teabillies show up in public and at town hall meetings with firearms and they aren't arrested?! Outrageous.

[LiberalLovinLug]

29. thanks for posting

People should look to countries where this has evolved into this kind of practice that is not used to fight terrorism but to persecute political enemies and protesters, perfected in places like East Germany during the cold war. It is a slippery slope. Democrats have to wake up and look at this issue as if a Republican was in office...which he/she surely will be again.

[bvar22]

30. DURec for the Truth.

Beautifully stated.

Solidarity!




You will know them by their WORKS.

[RainDog]

31. k&r n/t

[felix_numinous]

32. People who are upset at surveillance now

are people who understand history. People, like myself, who have heard first hand experiences of life under a dictatorship. During the Bush administration, I heard from people who came to America as refugees from a dictatorship who were deeply disturbed, and said that 'it is happening here, this is how it starts.'

I am not sure if the window of opportunity to do something about this has passed. But I do know as time goes on, it becomes more and more dangerous to act..

By the time it becomes obvious even to the teabaggers, it is too late. The thing is, most Americans, even those who work for NSA and intelligence gathering, tell themselves these programs are for the greater good.

The difference between apologists and people who are disturbed by state surveillance--is the REALITY of SOCIOPATHS. We are being asked to trust all the people in these government agencies, but have been witnessing the system becoming pathological.

We are being asked to "trust us" while we witness unchecked police brutality and unprecedented incarceration----WE KNOW what is going down, dammit.

[quakerboy]

33. So what do we do?

[Ash_F]

54. Get your congressman on board. Replace them if not.

Easier said than done, but that's really it.

[beemer27]

34. K&R

Safety isn't worth being a slave and/or living in fear.

[forestpath]

35. K&R

[WillyT]

36. K & R !!!

[tavalon]

37. Spot on!

[JDPriestly]

38. Thanks. Every thinking person has something to hide.

And that something is your innermost thoughts. Those are just for you. But with this deep kind of surveillance, the government can figure out the something you have to hide -- the innermost thoughts that you reveal when you shop at the grocery store, order a book online,buy an over the counter medication, purchase drinks, meet someone at a bar and buy a drink, donate to a political candidate, go to a religious meeting place, register your car, pay your mortgage, shop at a specific store at a specific time.

You can tell just how much you are worried about money, who your friends are, what you believe, what you think about, how large or small you are, what health problems you have, who you socialize with, what your political opinions are, what your religious beliefs are, everything that might be used against you.

And if you are married, don't, don't, don't call someone of the opposite (or same) sex who is not your wife/husband very often, whether that person is a co-worker, just a friend or a lover because that will be known.

What amazes me is that Petraeus and the other general who were involved with women (the general was, I think, involved with a woman from Miami) who were not their wives could have been so stupid as to have their suspicious affairs or close friendships.

Do you suppose they did not know that the government could examine all their phone and e-mail records? Petraeus?

So if you are in a high position, behave yourself. You are being watched. Anything you say or do can be used against you in the media.

[truebluegreen]

39. Thank you and well said!

Very important read for everyone, but especially those who are inclined to make light of the current situation, or to reflexively defend Obama.

[ReRe]

40. Marking to read later...

Thanks Hosnon, looks like a great read!

[yonder]

41. K&R excellent post!

[pscot]

42. Powerful stuff

Thanks for posting it. This country sorely needs a wakeup call.

[GoneOffShore]

43. It's the Stasi. "Lives of Others"

And all the rants and all the smilies and all the memes and all the "likes" and all the DU recs......

Doesn't mean diddly squat.

We've lost the battle.

"1984" only 30 years later.

Roll it up.

Turn off the lights.

We're done.

Good night and good luck.

[Matariki]

44. I listened to someone talking about how rapidly things changed in Venezuela in the early 70's

how suddenly they were living under a dictatorship. How one day things were normal and suddenly people were being disappeared, jailed, tortured.

I think that was what sounded so frightening to me. How fast it could happen. So fast everyone was in denial until it was too late to do anything about it.

[colorado_ufo]

45. Excellent read

[rastaone]

46. K&R

[XemaSab]

47. Perfect

And as I was saying to my mom earlier tonight, where does it end?

I'm "guilty" of half a dozen things that aren't a problem now but might be a problem in a few years.

Hell, I have books by Kevin Swanson on my bookshelf, and if they decide that he's a terrorist then I'm on record as having bought his books.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2971919

I know the SPLC and other groups keep an eye on that dude and other dudes that I own books by, as well they should. But I'm also a fan of free speech, and I fully support his right to be a tool.

This kind of thing makes people paranoid about thought crimes, and there is no place in a free society for thought crimes.

[woo me with science]

48. Thank you. This should be at the top of the Greatest Page.

[snot]

49. Wish I could rec this 1,000 times.

The Constitution was a huge leap forward for humanity, and it's been eviscerated in lightening time. I NEVER thought I'd see this happen so quickly, or that so few would recognize the implications.

[undergroundpanther]

50. Kudos to Original Poster and to DU poster.

I would love to know if I can copy/u/161719's post,tweak the fonts to get attention and print it out and stick it up every-fucking-where?

[octoberlib]

51. K&R!

[timdog44]

52. Who said this?

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." Was it someone everyone here on DU loves to hate? Do we remember that? Have we lost faith in our government? Are we being taken to the cleaners and being distracted by this and the IRS thing and the Benghazi thing and the AP thing (who were giving out security information)?

Paranoia Paranoia everybody's comin to get me,
Just say you never met me,
Im running underground with the moles,
Digging holes,

So, I say, dig your holes and run underground. When are you ever going to trust anyone again? When?

[Puzzledtraveller]

53. kick

[octoberlib]

57. Kick again! nt

[woo me with science]

58. kick

[GoneOffShore]

59. I may not have anything to hide but that's no reason not to distrust this kind of surveillance.

I'm reading the threads about Snowden and just not understanding why so many people feel that his exposure of TIA and PRISM is a bad thing.

I'm worried about the possibility of espionage, but somehow, I'm wondering if that's just an attempt at justification for going after him.

[woo me with science]

60. kick