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Marr

(20,317 posts)
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 11:53 AM Jun 2013

Hypothetically, would we all be against the government listening to/reviewing all telephone...

...and email conversations?

I know the current line is, 'they're only spying on you via metadata', but...

Just, hypothetically-- since so many people are using the excuse that this is no big deal because they're not actually listening to/reviewing/recording conversions-- can I assume those people would NOT support a president who did do those things?

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leveymg

(36,418 posts)
2. The metadata focus is the shiny object and line of the day
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:04 PM
Jun 2013

But, as Clapper has already admitted, they're also going after email and online communications. That includes content, images, web surfing addresses, and everyone's internet registrations, as well. See, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/clapper-secret-nsa-surveillance-prism

Obama and the NSA need to reveal the practical details of these programs, as well as the terrorist plots that have broken up. If they can't prove that universal surveillance and profiling has actually prevented major attacks (the NY subway bombing plot of 3 years ago was detected by traditional, targeted surveillance) then these NSA programs should be closely controlled and more tightly focused.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
3. This is George W Bush's TIA on steroids thanks to the advances in technology.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:40 PM
Jun 2013

We've all bugged ourselves, and incorporated the technologies that they use to spy on us. Wth?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. I for one wish to welcome our new kinder and gentler invisible alien lizard overlords
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:45 PM
Jun 2013

Additionally I would like to give thanks that our our ever wise, benevolent and merciful overlords have seen fit to raise the chocolate ration from five grams per week to fifteen grams per month.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
5. Maedhros made a good point about this in another thread.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:46 PM
Jun 2013

Here's his analogy regarding the collection of "metadata" on all electronic communications in the U.S.:

Sort of like being followed around by an agent and watched with binoculars all day. No personal information is accessed! No conversations were overheard! They just took note of where you went and to whom you talked.

They weren't spying on you!


That's an excellent analogy, I think and it explains why so many people are upset about this program.

I would note that President Obama could change all of this with the stroke of a pen. As President, he controls the executive branch. He could order the NSA to stop collecting all this data on American citizens. All he would have to do is sign the order.

Why he has not done so is the question.

-Laelth
 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
7. These are his policies. He has no intention of getting rid of it.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 12:52 PM
Jun 2013

If we had found this out before the election we would have had leverage, but he isn't going to run again ever. And the next President will say its old news and we all know about it and accept it since Obama did it.

sweetloukillbot

(10,942 posts)
8. As I understand it, they're just seeing two electronic devices communicating with each other.
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:23 PM
Jun 2013

All they are seeing are phone numbers. 999-999-9999 is in Los Angeles talking to 666-666-6666 in Burbank for 10 minutes. Then called 777-777-7777 in Hollywood. The names and addresses are not associated to it. This is clearly outlined in the leaked warrant. All they are doing is comparing two 10-digit numbers and looking for patterns within them. Yes, they can easily put names to the phone numbers, but they can't do that without a separate warrant. Which they might do if they then saw 50 calls going to 555-555-5555 in Yemen.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
9. This may be wandering off from the precise topic, but
Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:44 PM
Jun 2013

Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)

I think we know very well by now that they ARE capturing and listening to conversations and text based electronic communications in blanket or "dragnet" fashion. They are doing it with computers, so President Obama the parsing lawyer can think he's not technically lying when he says "no one" is "listening" to your calls. He can chuckle to himself about the metadata surveillance program being "modest" in scope as well - it is very modest compared to the centerpiece NSA domestic surveillance programs. The NSA don't actually need Verizon or AT&T to formally hand over their call logs in order to know who is calling whom and for how long, from where, and whether interesting things are being said. But they do need records to be surrendered under warrant in order to make a Constitutionally kosher, prosecutable criminal case. The court order to hand over call records (metadata) is strictly pro forma. They would use it to establish a "clean" chain of evidence against someone - or to fabricate one after the fact. That is to say the kind of data mining the NSA conducts with its equipment lodged inside telecom switching facilities can tell them practically everything about anyone or everyone - but the evidence produced by such a dragnet can't be admitted into a courtroom. It would be tainted, because the practice is PATENTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Not to mention, also that the political consequence for the party in power could be as devastating as the consequences for the case against Smith. So better to keep up the pretense that the program does not exist. A chain of evidence against a defendant that BEGAN with the NSA's beam-splitting, dragnet style, warrantless surveillance would risk being thrown out altogether for lack of an individualized probable cause. Why did Mr. Smith come to the attention of the authorities in the first place? would be the question asked. If the answer is because our system flagged him while we were conducting computerized, warrantless, pattern matching analysis over the content of everyone's phone calls, the state's case against Smith has a real problem.

An alternate "clean" and legal chain of evidence has to be constructed to take Smith to court. It would be legal because it was based on surveillance done under a FISA court warrant made possible by the Patriot Act. (I say "legal" here, not Constitutional) No mention of the real origin of suspicions against Smith will be made at any point. Federal authorities will contend that routine analysis of legally seized Verizon call bulk metadata, plus a tip off call from an anonymous neighbor of Smith perhaps, led them to suspect Smith's involvement in a plot. They then obtained a warrant to monitor Smith's communications and purchases in detail and then discovered the rest of the incriminating evidence, proving Smith's clear intent to commit a terrorist act. Knowing the more or less complete picture about Smith from their earlier warrantless surveillance, they will work backwards on the evidence represented by the call metadata obtained under FISA warrant to construct a plausible narrative about how this pile of seemingly innocuous phone numbers and timestamps added up to probable cause to put this one person under the microscope.

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