As we type away, there are lots of people deperately trying to find dirt on Snowden

[cali]

and manufacturing it and embroidering it. Some are in the Government. Some are at think tanks and some are right here at DU.

I'm not big on using the word hero, but this guy appears to me, at least initially, to be a thoughtful, smart and courageous guy.

[creon]

1. No problem

I have no problem with what he did.
I have no problem with him being prosecuted for doing what he did.

[whopis01]

59. Would you mind elaborating on your position?

You said you have no problem with what he did but also have no problem with him being prosecuted for it.

Is it that you just don't really care about it that much one way or another? It is hard to see why you wouldn't have a problem with someone doing something that you felt should be prosecuted - they are kind of at odds with each other.

Unless you felt he did the right thing and prosecution would bring more light to what was happening.

Either way - I am just curious as to what you were thinking.

[creon]

73. it does seem to conflict

he did what he thought was right. I kind of respect that.
I do not regard him as hero. I regard him as a naive and foolish young man who is in a very dangerous place. being prosecuted may be the least dangerous option for him.

I have no problem with the government prosecuting someone who broke the law. That is what the government should do, imo.

[whopis01]

74. I get it - Thanks for the clarification. n/t

[creon]

75. you are welcome

n/t

[B2G]

2. Marching orders get out quickly these days

Shoot the messenger and ignore the story.

It's what the government is counting on...many here wouldn't want to disappoint.

[Recursion]

3. Cali, come on. We don't know a damn thing about him.

We have no idea why he did this or how much of what he's saying is true. I know DU has a thirst for hero-worship, but isn't this a little rapid even for us?

[MNBrewer]

5. I think the "hero worship" you have in mind

is why so much dirt is being flung at Mr. Snowden.

[cali]

6. actually, we do have some idea

I'll take him at face value and in his own words. At least until there is evidence suggesting I shouldn't. And I've never thought of Assange or Manning as a hero.

[Recursion]

9. Why would you take an intel contractor at his word?

You may count that as "smearing", but I certainly don't feel any particular reason to take him at his word more than I do anybody else (which is to say, very little).

[neverforget]

15. Why would you take the government saying "trust us" at their word

especially when it comes to spying?

[Recursion]

16. I absolutely don't. I also don't reflexively believe anybody who leaks anything

DU's habit of instant hero worship troubles me.

[AnalystInParadise]

17. <---Another Intel contractor here

I am inclined to believe this guy, just based on what I know and also what he is talking about. Believe what you want, but he is on the know at least as far as his credentials are concerned. And this is so very different from Manning, Manning is a traitor for doing nothing more than throwing a bucket of shit (750,000 documents) on the wall and seeing what sticks. This guy on the other hand actually took time and care into what he released. Until I hear something valid that discredits him, this guy seems like the Real Deal to me.

[Recursion]

18. And he may well be

What the hell do people think I'm saying? Just give this a chance for the facts to shake out.

[AnalystInParadise]

23. Ok

point conceded.

[joshcryer]

29. He took evidence.

In particular we now know that they actually have software that tracks millions conversations around the world. We actually have screenshots of the software.

I have no reason to disbelieve him.

[emulatorloo]

11. That's a far too rationale course of action for DU

After all wasn't that long ago we were lionizing Dorner and lapping up every word of Zubeidat Tsarnaev's as if she spoke the gospel truth.

[Fumesucker]

4. Ya' think?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022978377

[markiv]

7. he's already a hero

no matter why he did it

at worst, he did the right thing for the wrong reasons

the 4th amendment is dead and gone, in the status quo

[graham4anything]

8. funny thingy is- OP above was started 22 minutes AFTER the thread showing who ES is was begun

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2978377

[Fumesucker]

13. lol :)

[randome]

10. We only just met the guy. Let everyone have their say and we'll see where the chips fall.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[cali]

12. have you posted that comment on the threads trying to discrediit him?

[randome]

14. No, I'm letting the chips fall where they may.

My own opinion is that both Greenwald and Snowden are feeding each others' need for attention.

Greenwald is telling us how important his stories to come are.

Snowden is telling us how brave he is.

That's my 2 cents worth. And everything others have ferreted out or just outright postulated are pieces of the puzzle, too.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[emulatorloo]

20. Guardian says it is the one of "most significant leaks in US political history.”

There is certainly some pretty hard-core marketing Hype Machinery in operation here.

Will be interested to see how this evolves.

[Hissyspit]

26. "Stop looking for heroes. Be one." And risk being accused

of just looking for attention?

[randome]

30. My 'accusation' shouldn't mean diddly to Snowden.

It's just my general impression of him so far. I have no problem changing course if the picture becomes clearer and facts warrant it.

We all just 'met' the guy so none of us really knows what kind of a person he is yet.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cali_Democrat]

19. Leaking classified information is illegal

If this guy broke the law, he should be prosecuted.

And knowing this Justice Department, chances are good he will be.

[reformist2]

22. Wow.

[Mojorabbit]

31. I know right! nt

[premium]

67. Afuckingmazing, huh?

Now the new meme is that he's running out of money and maxing out his credit cards, I guess the point is that he can't be trusted at all now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022984665

[MineralMan]

69. Oh, for pete's sake. Does anyone imagine that a lock could not be

placed on his accounts? Really? In actual fact, no such thing would be done, since credit card usage is a great way to track people.

[RainDog]

24. Slavery was once legal

Those who hid slaves could be prosecuted for doing so.

According to your logic, since they broke the law, they should've been prosecuted.

The level of respect for authority, merely based upon its existence, is very strange to see. I think it's a measure of how much someone feels they have a stake in the current power structure.

As has been the case for hundreds of years.

[backscatter712]

36. Yep, I'm sure Cali_Democrat would want Sojourner Truth & Harriet Tubman arrested...

prosecuted for violating the Fugitive Slave Act, hobbled and returned to their owners.

Because It's The Law!

[backscatter712]

34. Yep. DA's authoritarians are on the job. n/t

[tavalon]

45. You can still walk this one back. And I think you should

I have no idea how old you are but let me throw some words at you, Watergate, Nixon, The Plumbers and Bernstein. If the law becomes in itself illegal, it is our moral duty to break it.

[JoeyT]

48. Knowing this justice department

he should've been something safe like an ex-torturer, war criminal, or robo-signing banker.

Got plenty of time to prosecute leakers though!

[The Straight Story]

50. Right after they finish with bush and cheney they will get right on it

[Abq_Sarah]

54. Oh, they're going to prosecute

And that will just confirm what he's said... which opens up a whole new shitstorm.

[Puzzledtraveller]

65. Unless............

c'mon.....I'm sure you have a justification in there somewhere. Need help? Unless it's a Republican admnistration.

[reformist2]

21. There's nothing they can smear him with that will change my mind about his heroism.

[creon]

25. I will wait

I will waitand see.
I know little of him and his motivations.
I do not know what he put out. He seemed to be careful.

As I said above, I have no problem with him disclosing unclassified information. And, no problem with him being prosecuted.

[DirkGently]

27. The early lame seems to be the pathetic theory he's a ... wait for it

... libertarian.

And also a wiiiiiiitch! Buuuuuuuurn him.

[Le Taz Hot]

52. LOL!!!

OMG, that's so true. The "if her not fer us then yer agin us" brigade is out in full force. I hope their overlords pay overtime.

[Mojorabbit]

28. My first impression of him is that of a thoughtful moral young man. nt

[ZombieHorde]

32. How can we judge him when we don't even know

what his favorite band is?

[randome]

33. Shiny Toy Guns!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[damnedifIknow]

35. Kind of fitting I think

The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one's country deep enough to call her to a higher plain.

George McGovern

[99th_Monkey]

37. Or worse

My prayers are for this man's safety, good health and long life.

He is about as close to being a 'hero' as it gets in my book.

[greiner3]

38. At least there's not;

Yossarian for him to bleed upon.

Hopefully, in this 'story', it's not Snowden bleeding all over himself.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

39. I don't care what we think we know,

we really know nothing, just what we have been told.

[uponit7771]

40. ***NSA LEAKERS COMPANY, BOOZ ALLEN, OWNED BY CARLYLE GROUP***

That'e enough for me as if the other crap wasn't adding to it

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Who runs the NSA, who hired BAH?

Oh, yeah! The NSA which is under the command of the DOD which is under the command of.....Obama.

[oberliner]

41. He's a Ron Paul supporter

Does that count as dirt?

[stupidicus]

42. I'd say all their garbage is likely irrelevant

in terms of the need for this debate. Any impugning of his character or motives doesn't impact that.

If he's responsible for putting it on the public plate where it's long belonged, then he has my thanks.

[okaawhatever]

43. I think he's a total d bag. I believe he went to work for this company just to get this info and

discredit America. He has been working there three months. The group who claimed they created this formed six months ago. The group shares some members with EFF. Six months ago EFF went before scotus and lost. Snowden in an interview dropped the "architecture of oppression" line describing this program. That is the title of a book about Nazi SS. Anyone who describes anything in America in terms used to describe Nazi's loses all credibility. I'll bet we find out this guy has mental problems and/or listens to a lot of conspiracy theorists.
I didn't really form an opinion of him until I listened to about a minute or two of the interview. My biggest problem is that the program has been misrepresented in the press. I didn't know if that was him or Greenwald. It's both. These programs were revealed and written about multiple times. One member of the group, Laura Poiro wrote extensively about it in Aug of 2012. Sorry, this guy does not seem genuine to me.

[timdog44]

44. I don't often differ with cali.

But it seems to me to be the other way around. Lots of people trying to portray him as a hero at the most, and a clean hard working spy at the least. Sorry to differ with you cali.

[Douglas Carpenter]

46. whether one agree or disagrees with the NSA surveillance program - the public should know that it is

going on - so the public can debate whether or not it should be going on, That is the only possible way that democracy can play a role in such a sweeping public policy - I wouldn't be surprised if most American end up concluding that the sacrifice of privacy is worth the additional security - especially considering the fear of terrorist acquisition of nuclear devices - but the public does have a right to know and the public does have a right to have a voice in public policy

[BlueCheese]

47. I don't really care much about his background.

What's important is the information that has come to light. Discrediting him shouldn't mitigate the importance of what we've discovered.

[JoeyT]

49. Which is exactly why the smears are about to start.

Because it's hard to defend the indefensible, so it's much easier to attack the messenger.

Then they can start pasting whatever he may have done in his past on anyone that doesn't like the program he leaked information on.

It's a tried and true tactic for the people that are about to start doing it, which is why you keep seeing people scream about Ron/Rand Paul in every thread about civil liberties, drug policy, or war. Even support for single payer means you're a Paul supporter now, apparently.

"Are you now or have you ever known a member of the Communist party..."

[Laelth]

72. +1 n/t

-Laelth

[Violet_Crumble]

56. +1000 n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

51. If one ever questioned how far right

the Party Democrats have moved, just read DU. Justifying and advocating domestic, warrantless spying and engaging in character assassination of the whistleblower AND anyone who defends him and his actions. The talking points came out pretty fast too. Much like the Ruling Class does for Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the rest of the right wing ilk which, lately, has been indistinguishable from the Democratic Party Warriors. The dialog is EXACTLY the same.

[cali]

55. No kidding. I was once considered moderate on DU. I haven't changed. DU has.

[reformist2]

58. Sounds more like a bunch of phonies posing as Dems to me...

[RainDog]

64. no joke

I had to put some people on ignore yesterday because their attempts at spin are so bad I feel like they're alienating people who always vote for Democrats.

[JVS]

68. It's really sad.

[morningfog]

70. Yep. They sound like the bushies circa 2004-2008. Shameful.

[still_one]

53. I tell you what I find strange is why would Booz Allen hire a person with his background? Someone

is lying. It could him, the government, or some other source, but by all appearances this is not a straight forward case of someone just stealing and exposing classified information

[B Calm]

57. Is it true he's a Tea Bagger?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. Well, someone posted that he only said "Hi" to his neighbors and kept boxes in his garage.

Pretty damning stuff.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2983957

[JoePhilly]

61. Doesn't the government have access to his every phone call and email already??

I mean given that we live in a Police State now.

Surely, the government knows everything about this guy, including exactly where he is and how he got there.

[Puzzledtraveller]

63. If it's not smears it's debating the legal consequences of the leak and those involved

That is what their concern is, the legality of the leak, nothing to say to the fact of the ILLEGAL collection of private data. They are entrenched, full participants to their own authoritarianism. It must be difficult, the dissonance demands constant legitimizing of what deep down they know is wrong but can not admit.

[premium]

66. Apparently the new meme is

that he's running out of money and is maxing out his credit cards, oh, the horrors, I guess that now we shouldn't believe a word he's saying about this NSA scandal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022984665

[mfcorey1]

71. Well it is the same media that eleVATED him to hero status. Build up and tear down.

I never trusted him from the beginning.