The Government is not spying on us. Private Contractors are. Who here thinks that's okay?

[TalkingDog]

These are not government agencies, government employees. They are private citizens who then sell the information to the government.

I'd like to know exactly what Blackwater (or equivalent) is contracted to do. What is the agreement about what information they have access to, how much of it they are required to hand over and what tasty tidbits they may be keeping for themselves.

Edited to add today's headline story from Huffington Post: [link:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/nsa-leak-contractors_n_3418876.html?1370919691|
NSA Leak Highlights Key Role Of Private Contractors]

But critics say reliance on contractors hasn't reduced the amount the government spends on defense, intelligence or other programs. Rather, they say it's just shifted work to private employers and reduced transparency. It becomes harder to track the work of those employees and determine whether they should all have access to government secrets.

"It's very difficult to know what contractors are doing and what they are billing for the work – or even whether they should be performing the work at all," said Scott Amey, an expert in contractor oversight and government transparency at Project on Government Oversight, a non-partisan government accountability organization based in Washington. "It has muddied the waters."

[NightWatcher]

1. I think it was the WashPo who did a special report Top Secret America

It's the newest part of the military industrial complex. With intel there's no product to deliver. It's all about creating a need for an intangible product.

[FarCenter]

2. The private contractors are not "selling information to the government"

They are racking servers and routers, pulling cables, adminstering systems, adminstering databases, writing code, etc.

[randome]

3. That's what I thought, too.

And why I think Snowden is talking out of his ass.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[TalkingDog]

4. So who is gathering the information?

n/t

[FarCenter]

6. The information is being gathered by the systems that they build and operate

Some may provide the service of querying and analyzing information, but that is not selling information. They are providing the government with the equivalent of hourly or salaried employees.

[TalkingDog]

15. Perhaps "sell" wasn't technically correct. But taking money for gathering information

is only different by degrees.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/11/digital_blackwater_how_the_nsa_gives

[david13]

5. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what the contract says. They will do whatever they want. What oversight is there? None. Who is to stop them from any abuse? No one.
I don't trust government employees either.
And no, I do not say that because I have something to hide, or because I am a jihadist, or a terrorist.
dc

[jeff47]

7. No, the contractors are providing IT support.

As in it's a contractor who updates the operating system on the relevant computers.

Contractors also probably wrote the software packages that do the "spying".

But they won't be the ones operating the software.

Snowden's claims appear to be based on his IT support job. That gave him physical access to the systems, and administrator privileges on those systems in order to do things like install operating system updates. So he's assuming he could just run the "spying" software himself if he felt like it. But I very strongly doubt he'd actually be able to do so.

[Uncle Joe]

9. If the corporate contractors are doing as Far Center states

" They are racking servers and routers, pulling cables, adminstering systems, adminstering databases, writing code, etc.

and as you state

" As in it's a contractor who updates the operating system on the relevant computers.

Contractors also probably wrote the software packages that do the "spying".

What prevents them having their own spying network used for political or business extortion purposes?

They would be selling that information and I have no doubt there would be buyers in government and the corporate world.

[jeff47]

16. Access

What prevents them having their own spying network used for political or business extortion purposes?

Access.

A massive spying application doesn't do you any good if you can't get any data to put in it.

[Uncle Joe]

18. They're setting it up, there are more private corporate contractors than government

employees doing this job per Rachel Maddow's program last night.

With a handful of corporate conglomerates controlling the flow of information it wouldn't take too much collusion for them to obtain access, particularly if you had corrupted government in power as well ie: Nixon.

[jeff47]

19. No, because your plan requires these conglomerates to cooperate

Each one would seek to dominate the situation. As a result, they will not cooperate.

For example, Verizon and AT&T would benefit from collaboration on a wide variety of topics regarding cell service. They don't. Because they each want to be the one controlling that collaboration.

As for more private contractors, you have to remember there's a ton of not-very-interesting jobs in the system. Someone has to be the janitor. Someone has to pull the Ethernet cables. Someone has to maintain the HVAC system. And so on. On the "more interesting jobs" side, someone has to develop the software the government personnel use. All of those people are private contractors because the government decided to focus on the jobs where there absolutely had to be a government person involved.

[Uncle Joe]

21. There is no reason as to why two major conglomerates,

can't work out a means of sharing control.

It's done all the time with price fixing cases, they are in essence sharing control of the market.

I believe according to Rachel's figures there is over 400,000 private contractors involved with the data mining effort, I suspect that number will grow.

Furthermore, I have no doubt some of those government workers will at some point enter the private market particularly if given enough enticement.

Snowden is a prime example of the "revolving door" beginning with the CIA, then going private making 200,000 a year, heady stuff for a high school dropout, it was rather ironic that he would turn on his "Sugar Daddy" no doubt many people would/will not.

[jeff47]

23. Yes, there is.

There is no reason as to why two major conglomerates, can't work out a means of sharing control.

Yes, there is. It's that "sharing" word.

Furthermore, I have no doubt some of those government workers will at some point enter the private market particularly if given enough enticement.

At which point, they won't have the same job anymore.

Snowden is a prime example of the "revolving door" beginning with the CIA, then going private making 200,000 a year, heady stuff for a high school dropout, it was rather ironic that he would turn on his "Sugar Daddy" no doubt many people would/will not.

Well, you have to remember he comes off as a moron to anyone who knows a bit about computers. We can't necessarily say he was making smart choices. After all, he's probably going to be a "guest of the federal government" for a while, and then find himself nearly unemployable. In order to leak a program that was leaked in 2006.

But one thing they don't ask when investigating someone for a security clearance: "Is he dumb?"

[Uncle Joe]

26. "Price fixing" IS sharing and that's happened on numerous occasions, two or more conglomerates

have given up honest competition for market share in order to more easily steal from the people via higher prices or in some cases drive out competing business with lower prices.

Those people leaving government for the private sector know how to create jobs, most importantly they know how the system works.

Snowden may be a "computer moron" but it won't be only "morons" enticed by the private sector.

[jeff47]

28. They weren't competing for the same customers when they price fixed.

Those people leaving government for the private sector know how to create jobs, most importantly they know how the system works.

Yes, but they still won't be doing the same work.

The concern was contractors doing the "spying".

Snowden may be a "computer moron" but it won't be only "morons" enticed by the private sector.

What it means is we should not trust his interpretation as gospel.

[Uncle Joe]

30. In some cases they were competing for the same customers.

If private contractors entice enough government tech workers, they will learn how to create their own system or use/bypass the current one.

Particularly if they have government supporters enabling them, I have little doubt Nixon would've done so.

I'm not sure what your last sentence is pertaining to?

[Uncle Joe]

22. One correction to my post #21

I believe Maddow stated there were over 400,000 private contractors with top secret clearance, not necessarily tied to the data mining effort.

[jeff47]

24. And the point I was making is the guy mopping the floor in a TS facility has a TS clearance. (nt)

[neverforget]

11. Google intelligence analyst jobs. private contractors

are doing analysis and gathering. They take mostly former military intelligence analysts as they already have the clearances needed for the job.

I'd Google examples but I'm on a phone. Companies include Booz Allen, L-3 Communications, Boeing, Northrop Grumman.

[jeff47]

17. The OP's claim is that all the spying is being done by contractors.

They seem to be labeling every single contractor as a 'spy'.

My point was the bulk of these contractors aren't 'spies'. Additionally, the contractors are hired as analysts are specialists in a particular country or region. And none of those countries are the US.

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. I'm an Occupier. The government has been proven to be spying upon us. FBI, DHS, etc.

I suppose this is the "denial" phase on DU regarding the surveillance state. Remember that FISA is warrantless, and was voted into another five years of action.

[Skittles]

10. there's something very eerie about the deniers

it seems hard to believe people are that dimwitted

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. Definitely :(

[WillyT]

20. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

[snot]

27. Ditto. We need to remember,

your enemy can defeat you merely by causing you to waste your time.

[CakeGrrl]

25. What do you expect anyone HERE to DO about it? Today? Tomorrow? Next week?

Who voted it it in?

Maybe THEY'RE the problem and need to be removed from office to stop voting for this stuff.

Otherwise, what do people who presumably "get it" suggest: To hunker in your bunker and live life in fear of a drone strike? Yeah, you do that.

[Fire Walk With Me]

31. I expect people here to learn about it and to spread the message far and wide. I expect

the people here to learn who is voting for such anti-American bullshit and vote them out of politics. I expect everyone here to march in the streets screaming against it, to visit their offices and not leave until the message is well delivered. I expect everyone here to raise such a stink that no politician ever again considers voting for anything even remotely resembling the surveillance state.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I don't want the government or the contractors they hire to spy on us.

[Abq_Sarah]

14. Of courses it's the government

Private contractors are hired to do specific jobs for the National Security Agency. The contractors aren't running some rogue operation, they are doing exactly what the government has hired them to do. So yeah, the GOVERNMENT is responsible.

[bobduca]

29. hey if Feinstein, Reid and a guy named Saxby says its ok...

Who are we loyal democrats to disagree?

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt

[jazzimov]

32. NO. Please stop spreading false info.

Please inform yourself before you start shooting your mouth off.

I am really tired of people posting false info.