Snowden cheats at billiards.

[sibelian]

If he's walking towards you in the street, and you move left to go past him, he goes right so he's still about to walk into you, then you go right to avoid him and he goes left to avoid you and you still nearly walk into each other and then you go right and left and right and left and right and left for HOURS.

When he answers the phone, he doesn't say "Snowden here", or something like that, he goes goes "YUP?" with this slightly confrontational overtone as if he isn't please with you having the temerity to attempt contacting him.

He calls himself a Star Wars fan but he secretly likes the Ewoks.

He listens to the Eagles.

He's a slacker.

He abandon's ballerinas.

He dropped out of high school.

He lied about his salary.

He doesn't own a sports jacket.

He never washes his car.

He doesn't go to the gym.

I WANT TO SEE HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

[MADem]

1. I realize you are trying to be amusing.

I don't think it's funny at all that he walked out on his "ballerina." If you read her blog entries, he devastated her. She upended her life to travel from the east coast to Hawaii to be with this guy. She thought they had a future together. She spent days cleaning his crappy house and setting it up so that they, as a couple, could entertain his parents -- her (future) "in laws." Or so she thought.

She was tied up in knots and having stomach troubles. And then he takes a powder, leaving her, alone, without answers, confused and yes, abandoned, to be dissected and mocked on the internet.

If that were my child or little sister (that would take a miracle, but still) treated in such a fashion, I'd be quite livid. I call this guy a miserable cad, a complete shitheel, just for doing what he did to a young girl who didn't deserve that kind of callous disregard after an extended relationship.

[sibelian]

2. You are someone whom I ordinarily respect.

Do you wish this to continue?

[MADem]

4. No, I don't. I really think you want to get off this horse.

It reflects poorly on you.

Your purpose in making these mocking posts, I assume, is to draw a sharp line between those who think this fellow is some sort of hero, and those who find his behavior curious, objectionable, stupid or even traitorous. Your laundry list attempts to portray those who question Snowden's actions as ninnies who would "cast asparagus" (to use a DU term) on the guy's character.

You've crafted a list of silly or absurd statements that aren't true, aren't realistic, and are not "Onion quality" satire.

Just because people have questions about this guy's motives does not put them in the Birther category--that's a rather nasty accusation for you to make, that "birth certificate" snark. The rest is lame and untrue--except for the fact that he did abandon his fiancee without warning.

I think the best bet is to talk about this like adults. There's nothing wrong with digging into this guy's background, that's natural--he made himself an object of our attention with his comments (some of which have been revealed as inaccurate). But making up shit about him, and trying to portray people who don't agree with the "hero" motif as purveyors of that list of schtick?

That's cheesy. Immature.

It's just not funny.

[sibelian]

8. BIRTH CERTIFICATE!

WHY WON'T YOU LET ME SEE HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

[Cha]

144. Well said, MADem.. I think this kind of Cheezy OP

is a feeble attempt to say.. "so what Snowden told the Chinese Gov that the US has been hacking China since 2009" Get it, 2009!!!111

[marions ghost]

10. oh please

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

you don't know what happened here. You don't know what the relationship was like. He "abandoned" her? Maybe he thought she would be better off not involved in his future? Maybe he even hopes to see her again someday. He did the best thing for her and for him, considering his intention to open this can of worms. Sometimes you have to make hard choices.

Bottom line--we know nothing and it is way too early to judge, based only on her "poor little me" public wailing and gnashing. If she had real class (and cared about him), wouldn't she STFU, like Tam's wife. Her narcissist behavior could be an indicator that she never really cared. (If so, maybe he knew that). OTOH she could actually know what he was going to do--I doubt that but it's still a possibility.

See, there are other arguments. But you have already convicted. We do know the remote smear machine is operating overtime, which is the OP's point.

Pile on, pile on based on nuthin. That's all this is.

The OP's point is made all the more.

[sibelian]

15. I have to say, I'm almost impressed.

They are certainly tenacious.

[randome]

16. But not even leaving behind a 'Dear Lindsay' letter?

You're right. It's too early to know what's going on. All we know so far is that Ed "I'm not going to hide" Snowden is hiding in Hong Kong. Or somewhere.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MADem]

22. Well, I read her blog.

She wasn't dancing a jig. She was so upset she shut the thing down. That's what you call 'narcissist behavior?'

And listen to you! What a profound lack of compassion you display! If you suffered a horrible, humiliating loss in front of the entire world, would you like strangers saying shit like these comments you spouted...about YOU?

Bottom line--we know nothing and it is way too early to judge, based only on her "poor little me" public wailing and gnashing. If she had real class (and cared about him), wouldn't she STFU, like Tam's wife. Her narcissist behavior could be an indicator that she never really cared. (If so, maybe he knew that). OTOH she could actually know what he was going to do--I doubt that but it's still a possibility.

Day-um! This is DU? Where the fiancee, who has been dumped with no damn warning, is told to "STFU" and is informed that her natural reaction to having her fiancee split, with no warning, for good, is "poor little me" public wailing and gnashing? And then you call her a narcissist? A narcissist is someone who cares only about themselves, not somebody who spends days cleaning and getting ready for the visit of her (future) "in laws" .... right before her boyfriend gives her the old dump-a-roo with no warning. There was a narcissist in that relationship, but I don't think it was the young lady.

What a SHITTY thing to say. Next time someone says something cruel to you, remember that post of yours. And, FWIW, Tam's wife is singing like a canary...to the FBI. She's not talking to the media because her LAWYER has told her to keep a low profile, because she's not out of the woods yet in terms of charges. I'd wager it's a certainty that she'll sell that interview for cold hard cash if/when she can break free of any legal liability. She'll need a good nest egg to start anew, she has a kid to raise. Her parents aren't poor, but they work for what they get.

That said, not clear why you're comparing the wife of the bomber to this young woman...unless you regard her ex-future husband as a criminal as well...?

I think your comments about this woman are really something--very personal, very angry! This young lady didn't reveal national security secrets, she did nothing wrong, except maybe pick the wrong guy and uproot her entire life to follow her fiancee to Hawaii.

[sibelian]

26. OMG, I'm riveted.

What happens NEXT?!?! Does Bobby appear in the shower? Do they finally get to throw the One Ring into Mount Doom?!?!

[bobduca]

29. LOL @ the drama

So much better than my cancelled soap operas!

[MADem]

72. I never realized you were so deliberately mean-spirited. nt

[Romulus Quirinus]

79. This post is ironic. nt

[MADem]

85. Yes, because asking questions about a guy who did a government TS data dump is EXACTLY THE SAME

as making fun of his duped and dumped ex-fiancee/girlfriend on a discussion board.

[Romulus Quirinus]

87. :/ c'mon guy. nt

[MADem]

90. I remain astounded at this knee-jerk, lockstep, unquestioning POV.

DU used to be a place where people unpacked shit and discussed it. No limits, heads together, everyone gathering information and tossing it on a pile to be chewed over, tossed out, whatever, depending on the merits.

No more, I guess.

All Hail Snowden--never mind that normal people don't dump their fiancees and run away without a by-your-leave.

Don't ask questions about his background and serious lack of educational qualifications, that makes you disloyal to DU's "Snowden is a Cool Bro" Code.

Don't ever question his motives--he SAID he was motivated by an "I don't want to live in a world where blah-blah" POV, but he also inflated his salary by a third. But hey--no questions! Zip it! Nip it! Nip it in the bud!

Take what he says at face value. OR ELSE. His truth is the only truth. Don't discuss anything, because discussing is....BAD. It's a ....distraction. Yeah. A DISTRACTION!!!!! And distraction is the Worst Thing in the Whole Wide World!!!!!

NO THINKING!!! All Hail Snowden--or ELSE.

Jesus, this place is something, some days. What in hell are people afraid of?

[Romulus Quirinus]

92. Is it really so binary for you? nt

[MADem]

107. It's not at all binary--that's my point.

Intelligent people CAN hold more than one idea in their heads.

Discussions can follow more than one path.

People can discuss what this guy has supposedly revealed, AND they can ask questions about his bona fides, AND they can speculate on why he did it, AND they can express opinions on where they think he might go, AND they can wonder how his duped fiancee is holding up.

But not to this crowd.

Anything other than "Snowden is a HERO--a HERO, I tell you. Unselfish! A God! Perfect in every way! Young women want to MARRY him--SWOON!--and so do old women! And MEN, too!! Because he's just WONDERFUL and don't you DARE say anything different!!!" is met with this SHUTUP SHUTUP SHUTUP SNARK SNARK YOU JERK I CAN'T HEAR YOU 'tude that is terribly lockstep and stupid.

Because any question or deviation from the Path of Praise, you see, is what the acolytes would call a "distraction."

So don't do it--or you will be MOCKED.

[Romulus Quirinus]

110. I hadn't noticed. nt

[sibelian]

82. Oh, fer Pete's sake.

Fine! Petition for a "Politically Significant Relationship Break-ups" forum.

I thought this message board was about politics. Gullible me, huh?

[MADem]

84. Politics, sure--not about making fun of dumped fiancees, and then mocking people for objecting. nt

[sibelian]

86. I'm so insensitive.

How can I forgive myself?

[MADem]

113. Yes, and you'll have to answer that question yourself. nt

[sibelian]

119. ...

My dear MADem. You are indeed a wonderful person, even so I am unlikely to be held accountable by any authority, no, not even my imaginary wiser, humbler future self, for refusing to take you seriously for saying silly things about ballerinas on an Internet message board.

Aside from anything else, you DID tell me you didn't want me to respect you any more. It's kind of your own fault.

[marions ghost]

138. Poopylicious

So 'Tam's wife" pushes your buttons. OK let me explain. (Without returning your personal attack). My major points are in bold.

Both women have been "left." In the lurch. Neither of them ever really knew their partners. (Never mind what their guys did). If you are in total shock and despair and literally grieving, you don't do it in a maudlin way in front of the whole world. I have no idea what Tam's wife thinks, but I do get narcissism from Lindsay pix and blog, plastered everywhere & hard to miss. Doesn't make her evil, just makes her a self-absorbed individual. Not unusual in body art/performance types & fairly common in general. I don't seek to villify her. Ed could love her all the same, who knows? And if you're convinced he's such a narcissist.....well, he could be also, but it's not so obvious at this point.

But you know what--it's all just poopylicious.

We know next to nothing about Ed or Lindsay.

And that would be..............................................................MY POINT.



The big picture is whether Ed's sacrificial act for the sake of our eroded freedoms will actually help us open a dialogue on Security VS Privacy. It may be our last chance to get some real protection against the all-seeing-eyes. Wouldn't you like to see that happen?

BTW Diane Rehm did a GREAT job with the topic on NPR awhile ago. Asked all the right questions that Americans should be asking--without feeling the need to tear down the messenger. When one of the guests tried to create a "bad character" out of innuendo about Ed, she corrected him emphatically.

Perhaps you have a little too much over-identification with poor Lindsay. Actually I do have some sympathy for her, but I don't use that to villify Ed. That's what seems wrong to me. I haven't heard that he was otherwise cruel to her and so I theorize that it might have been a huge gift for him to keep her out of this mess. The road he took would seem to be his and his alone. (Right now I don't buy any defection theory either. Keeping an open mind).

I think the OP made a good point--the long knives are out for Ed and they are scrambling for anything to damage him with. To convict him in the court of public opinion. And you've already delivered your verdict.

So look, have a and relax.

[MADem]

142. I read your subject line and stopped reading.

Really. There's just no point in continuing this conversation if that's the level you're operating on.

Have a good day, now. No hard feelings; I just have better things to do.

[marions ghost]

143. OK well I wrote a lot & would like u to read it

if you'll give me the time and are not too busy.

The subject line was trying to lighten things up....

and then I went on to explain my POV.

but if your mind is closed--OK.

[datasuspect]

52. you can only abandon children and pets

[sabrina 1]

137. Good post, I was just thinking the same thing, 'the OP's point is made all the more'.

[datasuspect]

18. silly

goof

[joeglow3]

21. Give me a freaking break

We have all been dumped or dumped someone else. It is a common theme in the courting world.

This has NOTHING to do with the greater issue. It is a petty attempt to smear someone so we can shift the attention away from the real issue. Yes, it is a tried and true political tool, but it is still a diversionary tactic.

[MADem]

23. Really? We've all been dumped when we're at the points where we call the

significant other's folks "the in laws?" All of us?

Every single DUer has been dumped? Publicly? Before the entire world?

That kind of "dump" is NOT a common theme in the courting world.

Your hyper-sensitivity towards Snowden is as profound as your callousness towards his completely duped and innocent former fiancee.

I think that's interesting!

[bobduca]

33. Keep diverting

maybe someone will get distracted and realize the surveillance state is aok, because you know, crying ballerinas and stuff.

[MADem]

75. This woman is part and parcel of this sad tale.

I feel sorry for you if you can't keep more than one stream of thought in your head. Most people can. This woman IS part of the story, I don't think she regards herself as a "diversion."

This OP isn't discussing "the surveillance state," it's mocking those who disagree with the thread starter, and using the person of this Hong Kong runner's girlfriend in an unkind way.

"You're stupid; I'm smart" isn't a good way to make friends or influence people.

And laughing at people left behind, whose lives have been turned upside-down?

That says more about the people doing the mocking than anything else.

[bobduca]

77. thanks for the pity party!

"I feel sorry for you if you can't keep more than one stream of thought in your head. Most people can. "
aka
"You're stupid; I'm smart"

[MADem]

111. No--that's not what it means, but thanks for playing.

The comment was a reference to lockstep adherence to one POV.

Maybe if you read the whole thread before jumping in with snark you'd have taken the point.

[joeglow3]

78. You think people are mocking her???

They most definately are not. They are mocking people using your diversionary tactics.

[MADem]

88. Read this thread again.

She should STFU, if she had "real class," don't you know, like "Tam's" wife did.

You can only abandon children and pets...not fiancees, apparently.

She's not a diversion--she's part of the story. He left the woman he was going to marry. Dumped her and ran away. That's not a small thing, no matter how much you would like to pretend it is.

[sibelian]

91. Well, I've read all of it.

And, whatever else you might think, Snowden clearly has herpes.

[MADem]

101. Oh, a silly 'herpes' remark...apropos of nothing! Why, I'd call that .... a DISTRACTION!

You know you're behaving badly.

This thread might come back to bite you in the ass one day.

It certainly does reveal a lot.

[sibelian]

104. Oh my.

Do you think the NSA IS WATCHING MY DU THREADS?????

Oops.

Does saying "herpes" mean you're a terrorist? Gosh, I hope not.

[MADem]

108. Wow, I really misjudged you!

I do learn something new every day at DU.

[joeglow3]

123. Part of what story?

She has NOTHING to do with the information he released. That is like saying what he had for breakfast is part of this story.

Now, if the "story" is if he is a good person or not, fine. However, this has ZERO bearing on the validity of the information he released.

[MADem]

129. He's not a robot, he's a human was was to marry a woman he'd known for four or five years.

And he tossed her like a tissue.

You seriously don't think that's a factor in this event? "Move along, nothing to see here?"

[joeglow3]

140. How does that have ANY bearing on the information he released?

Do you think that invalidates and makes false the claims that he made?

Or, do you think the issue is if he is a good person?

[MADem]

141. It could very well have bearing. We just don't really know.

You are taking his power point presentation at face value--or the portions that have been released.

We know nothing about this guy--how much access he really had, if he swiped that PP off someone's desk; if it's a plan and not an actual system--we really "know" nothing. I don't work at NSA, and I suspect you don't, either. I rather doubt that NSA would clue us in "just to set the record straight," if that plan he lifted wasn't real, wasn't fully implemented, or what-have-you. They are going to try to limit how much is actually known, if they can help it. It's how covert agencies generally do things.

As for Snowden, I don't know if he's "good" or "bad" or "indifferent." I don't know if he's reliable, or a fantasist, or completely delusional. I don't know if he is sick, or well. I don't know if he is pure of motive or has mendacity in his heart.

And if you will be honest with yourself for just a moment, you do not "know" what he is, either. You are making a judgment based on 12 minutes of edited video and newspaper/blog articles written by a controversial individual who has had issues of his own.

I've been around the block enough times to know that things aren't always what they seem. In time, we'll learn more. We have no choice but to wait for that information, but in the meantime, there's no crime in trying to figure out the "why" of all this, particularly if one isn't unquestioningly sold on the "I don't want to live in a world where...." explanation. And trying to figure all that out is not "smearing." It is what it is, and nothing more.

[WovenGems]

38. Second Hand

From a BB King tune
"If you be my second woman I'll be your second hand man".

The real world verifies the idea that second hand people far out number the others.

[MADem]

133. They were together for four or five years per her father.

They were engaged to marry.

She wasn't "second hand." She was his fiancee and he left without a goodbye.

[sibelian]

41. Gosh. You're RIGHT.

Geez, this story get's more and more twisty and turny with every turny twisty plot twist.

Not only does it turn out Snowden's a poopyhead and abandoned a ballerina and is hiding his birth certificate there's now a growing Internet phenomenon of glossing over the emotional consequences of his unceremonious ditching of the aforementioned innocent ballerina! WILL SHE NEVER ACHEIVE LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING? It's sad day for America when we can't all bond together over a poorly judged break-up. It's like this whole story is showing up the basic inability of people to relate to each other, isn't it? It's like an amazingly plotted technicolour episode of .... something! Just... GOSH. I think we can all agree on one thing at least, it's going to require a great deal of attention to fine detail to squirrel out every last sliver of interpersonal nuance from THIS wackazoid tale of lust, treachery, narcissism, humiliation and IRONY. Isn't it? I bet you agree.

WHAT. ARE. THE. ISSUES?

I have a feeling that this particular story will never end.

Say, MADem, if this here DU discussion board hoojey was a reality TV show, who would you vote off?

[MADem]

117. It's not about a "poorly judged break up."

It's about someone--Snowden-- abandoning the person they said they were going to spend the rest of their life with.

You can treat that like a small thing, but it's not a small thing. That is a major decision, a very personal and life-defining decision, and it's not out of line to question the motivations that precipitated this decision on the part of Mister Snowden.

You can keep snarking away, but I just don't find your humor to my taste.

[morningfog]

42. lol! And that is what matters in this story.

Christ.

[MADem]

70. I think it's "hilarious" when hyper-concern for one person is accompanied by denigration

of another, particularly when the other had nothing to do with the mess caused by the first.

Christ indeed--what would that feller do? Kick someone who didn't ask for notoriety by association down? Yeah, that's the ticket!

[morningfog]

74. I think the hyper-concern for one person is the funniest part.

Especially when it is done to distract from the issue that matters.

See here for an example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2981021

The reason the girlfriend is getting swept into this is because of the urgency of Snowden's character assassination.

[MADem]

83. Let's not be obtuse, here--this guy's record merits scrutiny.

If you think you should take this guy at face value, without investigating his bona fides, you are foolish. A high school dropout, a college dropout, no record of any computer training, didn't finish Army training, and he's in a job making (a third less than he claimed on video, apparently) 122K per annum? Those "qualifications" would not get him an INTERVIEW in most companies.

Yet you want to suspend critical thinking because you "think" you like what he's saying--even though you've only heard 12 minutes of heavily edited Q and A from him.

And anyone who doesn't agree with YOUR POV is 'distracting.' Anyone who objects to the mocking of a young woman who had nothing to do with this mess save be engaged to the guy who did a runner is 'distracting.'

You are easily distracted. And that's your problem.

What will you say if this turns out to be a Koch-initiated enterprise? It's not like Glenn Greenwald hasn't spent any time on the Koch payroll, after all.

What will you say if the guy was turned and paid by the Chinese?

What will you say if you discover that his "epilepsy" is in fact a brain tumor or lesion that caused him to behave intemperately?

What will you say if he takes the asylum offer from Pooty-Poot in Russia...which of course will come with a few strings attached?

Why do you assume that anyone asking reasonable questions is "character assassinating?"

This is NOT a liberal v. conservative issue, you know. Some of his biggest cheerleaders of Mister Snowden are in the Tea Party, the GOP, and over at the Koch-funded CATO Institute--where Glenn Greenwald used to collect a paycheck.

People on both sides of the aisle have a difference of opinion on this matter. Some just have QUESTIONS.

An appropriate retort to asking questions about this guy is not "Waaah--his girlfriend is a tramp who deserves to be victimized as aconsequence of her circumstances!"

But that's what I'm hearing, here!

Real classy, that.

[morningfog]

89. A whole lot of bullshit there. Let's focus on the documents and the government's actions

and reactions.

You don't have to like the guy or his motives. I don't care about either. I care about what the government it doing, the lies they are telling and how to move forward.

And, speaking of obtuse, most of those with "questions" on Snowden are asked to smear and tear him down.

[MADem]

94. See post 90.

Asking questions is not "smearing and tearing down."

You seriously think that guy gives a shit about you vociferously "defending" him on little old DU? Or people who are asking questions about his background (which isn't "smearing"--it's called using the brains one was born with)?

While you are protectively fretting over your new best friend, he's probably trying to figure out if he should take the Russian deal to go live in Pooty Poot's world--or maybe he's calling Iran to see what they can do for him.

Hong Kong has already told him, through a pro-Beijing lawmaker, to beat feet. The clock is ticking.

What's "bullshit" is the "SHUT UP--don't ask about this guy!!! It's a (waaaah) disTRACtion!!!" theme that pervades this thread.

That's not "DU." Since when is DU afraid of questions? Since when does DU not want to hear anything that could potentially be negative? Isn't the truth the first priority anymore?

Maybe not....

Why can't his revelations (all 12 minutes worth) AND the questions about his background all be discussed? Why can't both arguments exist here? I'm not trying to "shut you up" or tell you "Don't talk about what Snowden said!!!!" Why do you object with such vicious intensity to people questioning his bona fides?

[morningfog]

96. It is a distraction. I don't know about waaaah.

I don't care. But, I understand people wanted to discredit him. None of it changes the facts of the data-mining and lies. That is THE point.

[MADem]

98. Yes, because it's distracting to talk about more than one subject...EVER.

Sorry. Not buying it.

What are you afraid of?

[sibelian]

115. So what do you think of the things Snowden actually revealed, MADem?

And how do you think the recent "discoveries" concerning his "character" should affect our perceptions of these revelations?

[MADem]

122. I don't know what to think. It's early days, yet.

I think there's a lot we don't know, yet.

I don't know how his character plays into this whole circumstance. I do not understand his motivation, frankly. I don't know if he really believes he's some kind of Truth To Power oracle, if he is angry and believes he's "destroying the system," if his judgment was off, if he's playing some kind of game, if he is acting under the direction of some other entity for purposes of political embarassment, if he's unwell, or if he's taking money for his efforts. I just don't know.

And I am not convinced of his purity--but I'm not necessarily unconvinced, either. I don't think he tried to access any of the oversight agencies that could have addressed his concerns either through the judicial system or the legislative process-- and frankly, I find that failure very troubling. This wasn't his first rodeo--he knows where the oversight agencies reside. If he did try that route and was rebuffed, why didn't he insist that be the centerpiece of his interview? I can only conclude he didn't even try.

But I think it's too soon to know with any degree of certainty what his real purpose was. I won't presume to assume, at least not yet.

That's not going to stop me from being VERY curious about every aspect of his life, his work history etc. He put himself in the spotlight, quite deliberately (his girlfriend did not). He invited the scrutiny. He didn't have to reveal himself--he could have negotiated a safe-harbor somewhere while still maintaining public anonymity. He chose to take another road and put himself out there, inviting investigation by his own actions.

I think an unwillingness to look into every aspect of his background--no matter where it may lead--is unhelpful to the whole process.

If there's to be transparency with regard to this covert program, there'd better be transparency about the guy spilling the beans.

[morningfog]

126. Talk it up and ask away. I am not afraid of anything,

assassinate the character all you want. But, I care MUCH MORE about what our government is doing than holes in a resume.

[MADem]

131. I'm sure you're not and of course you care. That's fine.

I care about motivation, because it helps to explain why this person took the course of action he took, when other paths were available to him.

[Monkie]

93. but her father said this: "Just wish him good luck and he's got my love."

so there goes that "argument"?

Her father, Jonathan Mills, told reporters on Tuesday evening outside his home in Laurel, Maryland, that his daughter was doing "as well as could be expected, and that's all I have to say". He described 29-year-old Snowden as "very nice. Shy, and reserved".

who is a better judge of his character, some random person on the internet defending the indefensible or the father of the "child"?

[MADem]

97. Linkie? For full context? Thankie.

"As well as could be expected..." doesn't sound like she's jumping through hoops.

But hey, make fun of her--that's the theme, here. She has "no real class" and she should "STFU."

You have no idea if the father's comments are more about not wanting his daughter to be further humiliated, or what. You think the guy would say "Yeah, my beautiful daughter was engaged to a fucking asshole who was a mean, inconsiderate shitheel?"

That would go to HER judgment. His goal, like any decent father's, is to mitigate his child's pain in any way he can.

[Monkie]

120. what? you now directly contradict yourself, with the evidence right in front of my eyes

If that were my child or little sister (that would take a miracle, but still) treated in such a fashion, I'd be quite livid. I call this guy a miserable cad, a complete shitheel, just for doing what he did to a young girl who didn't deserve that kind of callous disregard after an extended relationship.

and then i quote the fathers comment and your tunes changes?
he sounds anything BUT livid, and please dont make me dig up examples of what people normally say when family/friends are accused of "grave crimes".
and lets be clear about one other thing, the only people making fun of her and snowdon, impugning them and their reputation, are those that deny or fear what snowdon has revealed.

but sure, i will save you the trouble of using the NSA's search engine google and paste the link for the important context you need for the attempts at smearing the messenger.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden-lindsay-mills-father

[randome]

125. Guys! Guys! (Or Gals!)

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[MADem]

127. Wait a minute--you are telling me that my personal perspective is no longer valid, because

I dare to understand that another person might not approach something the same way that I might?

I told you how "I" would feel. I told you what "I" might say.

I don't presume to occupy the mind and body of this woman's father, who is "shocked" at this turn of events.

He has a right to his own approach and far be it from me to deny him. I also have a right to mine.

Don't you see how absurd your attempt at a "gotcha" is? It only works if I AM, in fact, her father--and I'm not.

AND, as you should know, having been a 'member' here since 2004, it IS customary to provide a link with a quote. You aren't doing me a "favor," you're observing standard etiquette for this forum.

[Monkie]

130. have you considered a career in politics?

you were smearing him, and not for the first time, so enjoy the spinning.
but this is not about you or me, and i have made my point so i will leave it at this if you agree thats a good idea?

[MADem]

132. What is this childish "smearing" nonsense you keep repeating?

Asking questions about a person, gathering information about their background, speculating about their motivations, after they -- willingly, deliberately, and with an option to do otherwise -- choose to "out" themselves -- is not "smearing."

"Smearing" is telling lies about a person. Unless you can cough up a high school diploma with his name on it, a college degree too, a bunch of certificates that demonstrate his IT expertise, show us a DD214 that reflects a successful Army career, and demonstrate that he didn't even know that woman claiming to be his fiancee, then you cannot say that I "smeared" him by noting that he doesn't have any credentials and he dumped his fiancee. Those are facts, not smears. And any time I've speculated, I've said that's what I was doing--or are you saying that no one is allowed to question The Party Line, here?

The more you tell people to shut up, the more I wonder what you're afraid might be revealed.

I'm not invested in a POV. I would just like answers. Let the facts fall where they may.

[avaistheone1]

121. He doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me.

[randome]

3. He said "I'm not going to hide." Then hid in Hong Kong and has now disappeared.

If he is not as good as his word, why would anyone put their faith in him?

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[sibelian]

9. What do you need faith in him FOR?

What is he asking of you that requires your FAITH?

[randome]

11. No evidence so far so yes, faith is required to believe what he says.

This thread is about his character and trustworthiness. I'm pointing out that so far he has not earned my trust.

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[morningfog]

44. Dude, he released the documents. His word is not needed.

The docs speak for themselves.

You'll need a new line.

[sibelian]

76. randome....

You're cool. So I'll try again.

What is the hotly contested issue that he is trying to convince us of?

What is the subject of his persuasion, the mysterious, ambiguous matter that we cannot accept without knowing that we are being addressed by an upstanding, decent, honest, God-fearing, broad-chested, blue-eyed, square-jawed, all-round American kinda guy?

There is nothing he has revealed that isn't clearly verifiable independent of his "character".

[randome]

80. From what I can see, his main point is that anyone within the NSA can snoop on anyone in the world.

Granted, he also says that data is being scooped up in enormous quantities. In the case of the phone data, courts have held that 3rd party records are not 'personal belongings'.

In the case of the Internet data, I can see a different outlook.

But this is all still done with legal warrants. I, for one, don't consider it 'spying' if data cannot be even looked at without a warrant.

At the very, the most minimum, of his judgment on all this, he should have allowed that some people might have a different opinion.

But his point about the data being available to anyone stretches my ability to give him the benefit of a doubt. Especially when he is hiding in Hong Kong.

So it's certainly debatable about what his main point might have been. To me, it's what I stated above. I personally can't care less if my data, or anyone else's, is stored somewhere so long as it cannot be accessed without a valid warrant.

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[jakeXT]

5. Why would she go to jail ?

In his first interview since the story broke, Jonathan also revealed that he has already forgiven Snowden for putting his family through hell - even though his daughter faces arrest and a possible prison sentence.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339980/Jonathan-Mills-Father-Edward-Snowden-girlfriend-Lindsay-Mills-speak-NSA-leaker.html

[randome]

6. _

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[jakeXT]

7. Looks more like a free spirited girl, house guests yes, but no pets

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.lsjourney.com&tbm=isch

[marions ghost]

13. With such a good ad campaign

--she'll have a new boyfriend in a flash...

[WorseBeforeBetter]

46. "...I've found it harder to find time for pole"

Yeah, that's a real bitch.

CLASSIC Daily Mail:

"On Monday she took to her blog - where she has posted dozens of photos of herself semi-naked - to tell of her heartbreak."

[HipChick]

12. I always thought pole dancer was just a nice name for a stripper..

[randome]

14. Depends on how adept one is. (Or so I've heard.)

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[jakeXT]

17. Dangerous exercise with the wrong equipment

[MADem]

24. Turns out, that's not true in this case. I learned something.

Apparently, there is a cadre of people--and there are a LOT of them--who "pole dance" without stripping. It's a very active lot, and they emphasize artistry and athleticism.

She has some videos of her performances as well as those of others up on YOUTUBE. She's quite athletic and not untalented.

And she keeps her clothing ON.

She also does a lot of modern dance that involves lifts and acrobatics--she has ability.

[HipChick]

39. Right..but most folks are not digging that deep..they hear pole dancer

and equate stripping..

More than once I have seen stripper used in M$M reports now

[MADem]

40. If you look at her stuff, she doesn't take a thing off.

In fact, in one performance, she puts ON a feather boa!

I don't think what she does is stripping (and I'll admit I would have done the "Hmmmmm" before I looked at her videos). She's plainly serious about dancing.

[jakeXT]

95. It was enough to distract Cenk

[randome]

105. "Grandpa Cenk". LOL!

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[UTUSN]

19. He's just a cyberkid: A fish out of water (from the pole-erina's blog) :

Raising himself on the internet. All abstract. All cuteness. Enough cash to stay out of the reach of ugly realities, surroundings like 007 luxury sets. Notice how in the galpal's blog, one of her "artistic" memes is for somebody who accepts she is physically "beautiful" so makes "ugly" faces; here, mimicking an animal dying, but for her it's cute because she is abstractly poking fun at her "beautiful" looks with an "ugly" face. The government apartments in Russia aren't luxury.

:Fish out of water.

[MADem]

25. Fish Out of Water is the name of a piece of modern dance she did.

It is an "adagio for an underwater-themed First Friday performance."

Here, watch it:

[UTUSN]

27. The pic she posted of herself is meme enough. Thanks. n/t

[markiv]

28. he wears white shoes after labor day

then tries to justify it with 'this is hawaii, it's different here'

[markiv]

30. he wears black soled shoes on basketball courts

and marks them up on purpose

[markiv]

31. he talks on his cellphone while ordering a sandwich at Subway

and has to have the sandwich maker interupt his call for each ingrediant

[DesMoinesDem]

32. I heard he holds the door open for women.

Benevolent sexist pig.

[Romulus Quirinus]

81. metadata! :D nt

[markiv]

34. he only uses his turn signal when he's not turning

and thinks right turn on red means 'right of way, on red'

[WovenGems]

35. Oh no

The NSA computer has come alive and is posting. How do I know? For only that system could generate this data and have the motivation to retaliate against Snowden for telling us about her.

[Iggo]

36. Even if all that is true, so what?

I mean yeah, Jose Canseco's a douche. But he was right about the dope, know'm say'n?

There is no requirement that a whistle-blower be squeaky clean.

[sibelian]

49. dont.... you.... UNDERSTAAAAAAAND????

How can we take ANYTHING he says seriously?

He's a dirty dirty dirty RAT.

[Iggo]

114. Exactly.

You saw how he was dressed!

[markiv]

37. he rides his bicycle in the roadway, when there's a bike path right next to it

and wont go to the side when you try to pass, doesnt use a light at night, doesnt use a safety approved helmet and runs stop signs

and he doesnt keep his tired inflated to the correct psi

[randome]

43. He puts toilet paper on the roll the wrong way.

I don't care if you have cats. It's still wrong.



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[Apophis]

45. He didn't brush his teeth this morning.

[limpyhobbler]

47. has beady eyes. takes up two parking spots.

Drives under the speed limit on the highway.

chews with his mouth open.

Drives over the speed limit on the highway.

rude to waiters/waitresses

bad tipper

was looking at your girlfriend

acts all big

[randome]

48. He can't have done ANY of the things he claimed.

Have you seen his girlfriend? Poor Eddie is obviously blind!

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[Bobbie Jo]

50. Sorry....

but this "theme" ceased to be amusing two days ago. Not that it was especially clever in the first place.

Now, it's just.....lame.

[randome]

56. Bobbie Jo is his party planner!

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[sibelian]

57. Gosh.

You know... now I think about it...

Was it EVER that cool?

Maybe we were all just fooled.

[Bobbie Jo]

66. .

[sibelian]

71. How can you be so DISMISSIVE!?

URGENT MATTERS ARE UNDER DISCUSSION.

[sibelian]

51. He still watches Cheers.

He sits at night staring at the screen, freeze-framed, at the bit in the boat just before Diane turns Sam's proposal down. He can't bring himself to press PLAY.

OMG. Think about it. IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.

[datasuspect]

53. he takes all the crab legs at the chinese buffet

[Douglas Carpenter]

63. and he picks out all the cashews from the bowls of mixed nuts so everyone else is left with peanuts

and a few (very few) almonds

[datasuspect]

54. he parks like a half an inch from your bumper

[datasuspect]

55. he walks to the left, not the right

[randome]

59. I've always hated that!

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[datasuspect]

58. he always goes first during breakroom potlucks

[datasuspect]

60. he drives 50 in the fast lane

AND WON'T MOVE OVER!!1111

[HangOnKids]

109. While Wearing Birkenstocks With White Socks

Bad form.

[randome]

61. He doesn't dust under the bed.

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[cleanhippie]

62. The fact that he pays billiards should raise a red flag. REAL Americans play POOL!

[sibelian]

67. Jesus, how much more UnAmerican can this jerk GET?

Is he doing it ON PURPOSE?

[cleanhippie]

68. I'll bet he even doesn't BELIEVE in Jesus!

[sibelian]

102. Man, after reading this thread...

I don't even know if I believe in Jesus anymore.

Or Santa Claus.

I'm so lost.

[randome]

64. He DOESN'T read DemocraticUnderground!

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[randome]

65. He gave Steve Jobs cancer!

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[sibelian]

69. He IS Cancer.

A great big cancerous tumour-boy of LAMENESS.

[Dash87]

73. He doesn't pee to the side of the bowl at night, waking everyone up

He takes the last paper towel and leaves the empty roll intact.

[Puzzledtraveller]

103. HAHA!

[treestar]

99. It's all about him

No discussion of the issues on what he did.

Sounds like another Julian.

Because no one wants to deal with the issue of whether it was really a good idea to do what he did. Just jump to label him a hero, and when his flaws come out, yell they are smears and get pained about it.

[sibelian]

106. The procedure's very simple.

1. They're a "narcissist".
2. Every part of their personal life is therefore "fair game" because, being narcissists, they are secretly, "subconsciously" "inviting it".
3. Attention slooooooowly drifts....
4. They become mythological figures so stuffed with values and meaningless "analysis" that the significance of whatever they revealed becomes secondary to the myth. Discussion of the revelation starts to look like avoiding discussion of the myth rather than the other way round.

You can do it to anyone. Everyone's life looks weird when you put it on TV.

[treestar]

112. Whoever started labeling him a hero

5 minutes about finding out who he is invites looking into his character, because they have made it about him. Not about whether what he did should really be done. They move too fast to approve of that and to label him a hero, then get pained when we look into whether or not he might really be.

Plus that goes both ways - they are forever calling this or that Democrat a spineless traitor and finding ways to smear them if they can.

It's all about people with those who don't want to discuss the issue of national security vs. protection of privacy and other rights. Too abstract.

[zeeland]

100. He has a geeky

haircut and glasses. You can always spot these types a mile away.
AND CNN is reporting his stuff is missing from the rental he moved out of.
A sure sign he has something to hide.

[LondonReign2]

116. He's often tardy in retrieving his garbage cans

from the curb after pick up day

[FreeJoe]

118. Probably owned a pit bull

[DanTex]

124. I like the ewoks. The ewoks are great. What's wrong with liking ewoks?

On the other hand, if Snowden secretly hated the ewoks, we might have a problem...

[pnwmom]

128. He goes to the Chinese government with classified intelligence secrets

after he finishes his interview with the Chinese newspaper.

[HipChick]

135. He's a traitor..

[arely staircase]

134. and spies for China

nice hero

[Initech]

136. He dines at the Olive Garden with his pit bull and a shot gun every night.

[azurnoir]

139. I thought it applebee's

[WillyT]

145. LOL !!! - K & R !!!