Please check in if you oppose the massive surveillance being conducted on American citizens

[cali]

and others.

I've never posted a check in thread before. I've rarely even posted in one.

I stand with the ACLU and other civil libertarians. I oppose the sprawling and ever expanding surveillance state. I believe that it's more of a threat than terrorism. I oppose being "kept safe" at the expense of Constitutional rights.

If you support all this, it would be nice if you could just ignore this thread.

[rusty fender]

1. I oppose the unconstitutional mass surveillance

by the NSA and by any other U.S. governmental agency and/or government contractor of Americans.

Per Thom Hartmann, more people drown in bathtubs in the U.S. than are killed by terrorists. What Thom fails to acknowledge is that the Obama admin. is continuing Bush's fear campaign, re terrorism. The government, including Al Franken, claims that all this spying on us is keeping us safe. Fuck them! The gov. can keep us safe by fixing our roads and bridges, our levies and tornado early warning systems.

[SkyDaddy7]

286. MISGUIDED OUTRAGE!!

State & local cops will violate more civil rights in one day than the NSA will EVER DO!!

Ed Snowden is no hero, actually appears to be a Chinese Agent with the latest of his so-called "leaks"...The only thing we know now that we did not know years ago is the name, PRISM. WOW!! What a groundbreaking revelation!! LOL!

[JDPriestly]

302. Two wrongs don't make a right.

We have to be vigilant and fight the abuses of power wherever and whenever they occur. Freedom is what our country is about. If we are free we are stateless.

[bvar22]

358. Misguided logic,

....and transparent attempt at diversion.

[tavalon]

382. Yep,

The only "good" argument I've heard is that if Obama doesn't implement total surveillance and a "terrorist act" (like what happened at the Boston Marathon) happens, he is politically screwed. Last I checked, Obama appears pretty politically screwed anyway, so it would be nice if he would lift the middle finger and start standing for something other than political expedience.

I really believe Obama the man, is a man of principle. The political Obama appears to be, well, I'm not really sure what he is. Is he?

[rusty fender]

410. Plus 1

[tavalon]

381. We tend to be short attention span people because we live in a short attention span world

The outrage isn't misguided just episodic. If we maintained our rage when this started as Total Information Awareness, we might not be here today. And knowing that the name changed to Prism rather than TIA is not what are enraged about. Feel free to ask, rather than posit that we are misguided.

[sabrina 1]

403. He wears boxer shorts too, how shocking. And he abandons ballerinas, that was the last straw for me

Now he's Chinese you say? Wow! I thought we were friends with the Commies in China, at least financially. We get most of our cheap stuff from there, our Government doesn't care about child labor or worker abuses, or the crackdown on dissidents. The Chinese president was entertained at the WH this week, talking about 'business' no doubt, money, or GOD as it is to us.

So what's wrong with HIM being in China, most of our Big Corporations are in China avoiding taxes here, who knows what 'secrets' they are sharing with the Chinese??

Give us a sex scandal, some false allegations of sexual assault or something that will grab the attention of the public. Has he been caught with a prostitute eg?

These 'smears' are so boring.

[Douglas Carpenter]

2. Amen! time to stand up for freedom

[Rosa Luxemburg]

377. I complained about it in 2002 when Bush signed it

11 years later! I guess I couldn't made much impact.

[tavalon]

383. But you are consistent and that is good.

Politics isn't a team sport. By staying consistent, you express that most eloquently.

[Jamastiene]

3. Checking in.

The militarized police state in America has gone overboard. All of this has gone too far. It truly is like 1984 at this point. The answer to the question, "Are we there yet?" is, "Yes."

[pintobean]

4. K&R

[Aerows]

232. You and I agree about as often as

fire agrees with rain, but on this issue, we are 100%.

[TheBadWolf]

5. Absolutely

Ben Franklin, safety and security, etc.

[tavalon]

384. Ben has been on my mind since this broke

Speaking of broke, my rage meter is tacking.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

6. This must end!

Enough is enough.

Thank you Cali for your clear and consise opinions on this issue! I've appreciated them all!

[cali]

9. Thank you for joining this thread.

[malaise]

7. K & R

but I don't like your American citizens and others. No citizens anywhere should be subject to this invasion of privacy

[Hubert Flottz]

8. K&R

The KGB has a hold on me!

Edit...K(GB)&R

[octoberlib]

10. K&R!

[marmar]

11. I'm not big on check-ins either, but for this one I'm compelled.

Checking in.

[boilerbabe]

12. checking in!

[90-percent]

13. checking in

Constitutional Fundamentalist here.

-90% Jimmy

PS - If you are capable of rational thought, you should fear your bath tubs more than the terrorists, because the probability of your bathtub killing you is greater than terrorists killing you.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

248. We should be monitoring bathtubs, then.

Sneaky little fuckers.

[tavalon]

385. As I get over a broken shoulder I received when I stood, tangled my feet

and went down, hard.

So far, Terrorists = 0
Broken bones = 1

I'm not going to play the terra terra terra game. I didn't play when bush was playing and I'm not going to do it now.

[cate94]

14. Checking in

I also oppose being "kept safe" at the expense of Constitutional rights.

[tavalon]

386. So, I'm guessing you would call yourself a Ben Franklin Democrat?

[Fuddnik]

15. Revoke the NSA's charter.

Cut their budget.

[nradisic]

16. The whole thing is unconstitutional...

Kick

[Bonobo]

17. I oppose the change from "innocent" as default to "under suspicion"

If I am not under suspicion, the government has no right to declare probably cause and suck up my metadata to be used for god knows what.

[nineteen50]

216. It would appear that

there is an attempt by meta-data mining to decide someones intent and use that as reason for reaction, punishment and extraordinary rendition both abroad and at home in the fight against terror..

[idwiyo]

18. I oppose mass surveillance regardless which state it is, and who it is spying on.

I am British so not sure if I belong in this thread.

[cali]

24. Of course you belong in this thread.

thanks for joining it.

[tavalon]

387. Hell yeah, you do

Yours is an ex empire. Ours is an expiring one. You have much to offer.

[Divernan]

19. I join you all in checking in

And a big shout-out to Agent Mike or whichever private contractor is on DU duty tracking this thread.

[East Coast Pirate]

20. kick

[tnlurker]

21. Checking in

[metrodorus]

22. opposed to corporatist spying

Those who think that the government is spying on them have only got it half right.

It's really corporations who are spying on us and enriching themselves at the cost of our privacy.

[ReRe]

23. K&R

Check. "Constitutional Fundamentalism" forever!

[radiclib]

25. The need for this thread is sad in itself

k&r

[SamKnause]

26. Surveillance

Checking in.

I am against blanket surveillance.

I do not care if it is being done by a Republican president.

I do not care if it is being done by a Democratic president.

I do not care if it is being done by an Independent president.

I do not care if it is being done by a Green Party president.

I am against shredding the Constitution and having our rights and freedoms violated !!!!

[Frosty1]

313. Amen!

But...but...but.. "The Constitution is just a piece of paper"
George w bush

[scarletwoman]

27. Checking in. I oppose the surveillance state.

[graham4anything]

28. -1. I oppose the persecution of President Obama by supposed democratic supporters.

[cali]

31. a serious question: Do you consider this thread persecution of the President?

[graham4anything]

36. I find the entire issue persecution of the president which started with Rev. Wright, and has

obstructed everything since 2008.
first Rev. Wright, then Bill Ayers, then his birth certificate, then 1000 other smear

this issue, the SCOTUS has already decided was NOT illegal.
other courts have found it NOT illegal.

Just another day since 2008 and the election of Barack Obama.

it wears thin.

has nothing to do with a simple thread. Has to do with everything.

No other President has had such persecution.

And FDR and Lincoln were beloved, yet, did things that were far worse. Yet neither was persecuted from day one like President Obama.

And what would Paul Ryan as President and James Inhoffee as VP do for people?

[nashville_brook]

53. you're aware that Obama isn't president for life, correct?

[tavalon]

390. Ain't that the kicker?

It's the same myopia the Repubs used.

[Proud Public Servant]

63. Wow. Where to start.

The Democratic Party is just that -- a democratic party. It is not a cult, and blind loyalty to The Leader is not a tenet of membership. We sent the president to Washington to do our bidding, not vice versa, and letting him know that he's failing in his promises to us is not only our right but our obligation as party members.

Second, if you're really conflating specific, focused objections to the president's policy with spurious GOP personal attacks, then it becomes difficult to take you seriously as a political observer.

Third, if you think no president has been as persecuted as Obama, you need to either actually read up on Lincoln or stop invoking his name.

Finally, no one disagrees that a president from the batshit crazy wing of the GOP would be worse. That is part of why we have come together in this community; to oppose the batshit crazy wing of the GOP. But we have also come together to support the principles of the Democratic party -- something our president doesn't always seem to do, in spite of being at the head of that party.

Besides, we need the practice, since all this crap is going to be a lot worse under Hillary.

[Aerows]

176. That minor matter

of Lincoln getting shot says that he wasn't revered by everyone.

[rhett o rick]

328. Dont waste key strokes. nm

[Demit]

69. Way to lump everything together.

[NorthCarolina]

88. LOL

No, I'm not laughing with you.

[GoneFishin]

96. What they said ^^^.

[Bluenorthwest]

104. Here is a reasoned response to your Waldorf Word Salad

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

― Theodore Roosevelt

[graham4anything]

112. My support was Wilson over third party candidate Teddy Roosevelt. who was NOT a pacifist and

he said

Walk softly and carry a big stick

a big stick meaning do all one can to keep the nation safe.

[Bluenorthwest]

116. Interesting. Woodrow Wilson was a racist who resegregated the Federal government

which had been integrated for many, many years. That's what you supported.
Plus, Teddy's quote was not about elections, it is about sitting Presidents being public servants who must always be accountable to the people.
So instituting a policy of racial segregation is the sort of thing that makes you shout your support unasked, of course this was all long prior to our time, so your support did not exist then, you were not asked how you voted in 1912, you do understand that, don't you?
To support a segregationist in historical retrospect is an interesting choice. To evade and avoid the topic, you rush to support segregation. Charming.

[idwiyo]

124. Taking G4A previous posts into consideration, racism is a minor issue as long as one has D after

their name. Now, stop asking silly questions and start marching towards the voting station to vote straight D ticket.

PS that was sarcasm, just in case someone missed it.

[Skittles]

334. are you this guy?

[AAO]

351. I think most people expected him to defend and uphold the constitution.

[RC]

59. I oppose the blind support of anyone. Our leaders are not gods, not even approaching being deities.

Some here need to stop with the hero worship. How is that any different from being just another unthinking sheeple?

That said, I am on the record as being opposed to the mass data collecting on private communications, without any suspicion of any wrong doing. If you are under investigation and with a proper warrant, then they can collect your communications data - within reason, spelled out in the proper warrant(s). But other than that, the 4th Amendment has not been repealed - yet that I know of.
Secret courts, populated by unknown people, doing things in secret cannot repeal any part of the Constitution either. But, in effect, this is what they have done, repealed the 4th Amendment. No matter how convoluted their arguments for supposed legality.

This spying on American citizens, it needs to be stopped now! If not, what happens if and when the loony bin Republicans gain control of both houses of congress and/or the presidency? The way they cheat, lie and steal, you have to know that is a very real possibility, if not the 2016 election, then the one after. It will happen at some point. Then what? We can kiss the rest of our Constitutional freedoms good-by.

[bigwillq]

66. Good post.

[graham4anything]

91. That is why I do NOT support what Alan Grayson said yesterday. Comparing to Nixon. Shameful.

The 2nd amendment takes my 1st amendment away.
1 zillion billion times more important than any other amendment.

Nixon kept the war going for 6 years longer than it would have had Nixon not sabatoge LBJ in 1968.

shameful of a democratic congressman to compare this minor issue with Richard Nixon.

[idwiyo]

106. Mass surveillance is a minor issue? Damn...

[Bluenorthwest]

108. I support the Congressman. You I reject, your rude derailing of important discussions is

harmful to the community at DU. The gibberish act is not suitable for debate of vital issues, and your continued use of that tactic indicates a contempt for our society.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

― Theodore Roosevelt

[graham4anything]

110. I supported Wilson not Roosevelt. I don't support 3rd party candidates for President.

Roosevelt though was talking about using drones when he said
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".
Big stick means doing everything to keep the nation safe.
Teddy Roosevelt was NOT by any means a pacifist.

[idwiyo]

117. Roosevelt told you he was talking about drones?... Oh my...

[Bluenorthwest]

119. That was 1912. You did not support anyone in that election. 1912. No drones in 1912.

Wilson is the man who instituted racial segregation of Federal employees. In 1912. No one suggested TR was a pacifist, he was a famous for the charge up San Juan Hill and all that, schoolkids know this.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

200. I had no idea you were so old.

[sabrina 1]

277. I support Democrats like Grayson who stand up for our Constitutional rights as their oaths require

them to do.

I don't know any Republicans who care one bit about our rights. They all supported Bush's policies so nothing they say means anything to me.

Democrats who like Grayson, stand up for our rights are the reason why I am still a Democrat.

How about you? If you don't care about the 4th Amendment being violated which is a Bush policy, why are YOU a Democrat?

[mbperrin]

391. Were you actually old enough to remember Nixon?

He authorized the break-in of an office to collect information, and then covered it up.

How can that one act possibly compared with mass metadata collection of 320 million Americans?

Hell, Nixon was a piker by comparison.

[tavalon]

392. Minor issue?

Please tell me, Graham, do you ever say something of substance and use, because I don't like to put people on ignore for just that reason but you are getting so predictable. Is it just this issue?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. LOL

[Jamastiene]

115. In other words,

YOU NEVER LOVED HIM!!!!

You are taking this too personally for President Obama. He did not start this. It is continuing through his administration though. The discussion is about the issue, not the president. You have to imagine the policy AFTER President Obama's second term is over. Do you want another Republican to not only continue this policy but expand on it later? Do you trust a Republican to only go after terrorists and not American citizens for political reasons? I don't. It is the policy, not the President, that people are discussing.

[L0oniX]

182. I oppose anyone who puts any POTUS above criticism and scrutiny.

[Bradical79]

186. Party before country.

Fuck ethics as long as your group wins, right? Your use of the word persecution is about as laughable as millionaires claiming they're persecuted by people wanting them to pay higher taxes.

[tavalon]

393. One, Two, Three, Four, Who do we Appreciate More!!!

Obama! Obama!!!!Obama! Obama!!!!Obama! Obama!!!!Obama! Obama!!!!Obama! Obama!!!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

194. Expressing concern over or disapproval of some government policy

does not constitute "persecution" of the president. In general I like Obama. I don't like this broad surveillance the NSA seems to be doing. I get to complain about it without being accused of persecuting the president.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

250. Oh, he's so persecuted.

Get real.

[thefool_wa]

318. this has nothing to do with Obama....this started years ago. nt

[Logical]

375. LOL, with him or against him! n-t

[tavalon]

389. I think Cali asked you not to join this thread

She didn't mention you specifically, but really, it's not rocket science.

[vi5]

29. STOP QUESTIONING OUR PRESIDENT!!!!

How hard this must be for President Obama. He has a vision bordering on genius and so many small minds can't see his big picture. They can't see what is important. They feel this need to question.

Please stop this!!!!!!! We need to trust!!! I STAND WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA AGAINST THE TRAITORS AND THE HATERS!!!!






Edit: I'm sorry I need to edit this post. I made a grave error. I wrote "bordering on genius" instead of just "genius". I'm sorry. i didn't mean to question or demoralize.



/sarcasm

[L0oniX]

184. STOP STEAMING UP MY GLASSES!

[Tien1985]

30. Checking in. Nt

[MNBrewer]

32. I do.

[closeupready]

33. kick

[bread_and_roses]

34. Checking in (n/t)

[MissDeeds]

35. I oppose it

K&R

[Bjorn Against]

37. I usually don't do check in threads either, but this one is important

I opposed mass surveillance under Bush, I continue to oppose it under Obama.

[RKP5637]

38. I also stand with the ACLU. n/t

[KarenS]

39. I vehemently oppose massive surveillance!

I've been shocked this past week with both the revelations and the responses to them.

[cordelia]

40. Checking in.

I oppose this no matter what administration is conducting it.

Thanks for the opportunity, cali.

[A Little Weird]

41. Check

I don't like the direction this country's going.

[Laelth]

42. Checking in. n/t

-Laelth

[mwooldri]

43. From the land of the CCTV, glad to check in.

I do think the NSA etc have overstepped the boundaries big time here. Though I do recognize that there is a need for agencies like the NSA to exist and to have appropriate tools to do their job. Having to have to have an encrypted VPN tunnel to somewhere else in the world should not be a necessity.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

44. Checking in --- Opposed! n/t

[DLevine]

45. Checking in. nt

[golddigger]

46. Checking in.

[Puzzledtraveller]

47. Here

[TheKentuckian]

48. Check, check

[Ford_Prefect]

49. I opposed it before, and before that, and previously before that, and I still do.

The obsessive wretched excesses, the incipient paranoia, the mendacious lies, the enormous and egregious profiteering, the casual damage to everyday lives, the pathetic accusations hurled at anyone who asks "why?", the endless self-justification of a "higher calling" which cannot stand common sense examination nor the light of day...

The corrosion of Justice, for any purpose, by anyone, damages all of us.

[Magoo48]

50. Haven't checked in in months...Checking In...

[Egalitarian Thug]

51. Hallu! Two more over here. K&R

[canoeist52]

52. I don't often do this but, I'm in.

Even though it'll probably get my name on some list - or precisely BECAUSE my name will join other patriots' names on that list. Solidarity in numbers!

[fasttense]

54. This all encompassing spying on Americans is satisfying the whim of Some Rich Guy

Because with all this spying they never were able to stop the Boston bomber. So much for keeping us safe.

So of course this spying is scratching the itch of some excessively wealthy neo-nazi like a Koch Brother or two.

[OnionPatch]

55. Checking in

Didn't like it when Bush was doing it, don't like it now, either.

[OneGrassRoot]

56. Checking in. K&R n/t

[graham4anything]

57. BTW, is this a loyalty oath? Just wondering.

Remember- freedom is freedom of speech, which means the 1st amendment(which of course is the most important amendment,
as it is #1. and #1 comes before #2 and #3 and #4.

Loyalty oaths are very unsavory, because my late uncle(Jewish like me) was friends with a couple of Broadway writers(Jewish like me) who were blacklisted back in Joe McCarthy day.

BTW, the ACLU was the one that got Oliver North freed, and in doing so, stopped any and all prosecution from leading to jail time
afterwards.(for all those that said why wasn't Bush/Reagan jailed for Iran/Contra.

[DLevine]

71. I see it as loyalty to one's principles above party politics. nt

[zeemike]

72. Every one in the military

Or in the government takes a loyalty oath...to defend and protect the constitution...and that is what this is about...I took that oath and it is a GOOD thing because that is what is supposed to protect our liberties.

This conversation is about those that took that oath and are violating it.

[Demit]

73. No.

This has been another simple answer to a simple question.

[cali]

77. No. Does it imply in any way, shape or form that it is? Of course not and it's

contemptible to suggest that it is.

Disgusting post as are the vast majority of your posts.

[graham4anything]

82. I don't believe in loyalty oaths.

and let me ask you-
if tomorrow the policy is changed, would life then be perfect?

And what happens the day after tomorrow if there is another Aurora theatre incident?

[cali]

97. your post and the questions you pose make no sense.

I certainly have never claimed that life would be perfect if there were different parameters for surveillance.

And Aurora has nothing to do with my OP. NOTHING.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. Dig this hypocrisy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022999446

[L0oniX]

208. That link: DUzy ...for the most moronic poll to ever hit the html of DU.

...and +1 for the use of the word "Dig" ...brought back memories for me.

[Aerows]

235. I'd ask

in the name of a passed away singer, what kind of fuckery.

Ridiculous, it is. "Look over there" no "look over there" no "let me take your eyes because my need to see is necessary and your right to privacy is unnecessary if you've don't nothing illegal. What could go wrong?".

[idwiyo]

100. Loyalty oath to whom or what? One's own principles? How is it bad?

[Fuddnik]

103. Their spying really caught that guy, before the crime, didn't it?

[LuvNewcastle]

322. Good point.

They didn't catch Snowden before he talked, either. I guess we need spies for the spies. Maybe that's the conservative plan to get us back to work in this country.

[Jamastiene]

118. It did not stop Aurora in the first place. n/t

[graham4anything]

206. but it has stopped many 9-11s. When nothing happened, it means it worked.

and nothing is perfect.
(because 100% is perfect, nothing is nothing).

[L0oniX]

209. ...in exchange for our bridges and constitution collapsing.

[graham4anything]

214. one has NOTHING to do with the other...take this example-

I went and voted for Mary Buono in the NJ primary for governor last week in the rain

our governor the republican tea party guy REFUSED an already 100% paid NEW tunnel from NJ to NY that would have alleviated traffic,
brought in millions in fares, given jobs to 1000s and made a needed link to Manhattan and vice versa

He said NO kowtowing to the tea party

then Sandy came and flooded one tunnel and saw the need for new ones

but not the one that was 100% paid for by the federal government

and so it goes.

But what made the economy dip was the 7 years from 2001-2008 were NOTHING was done to the ugly hole in the ground that could have been rebuilt and vital in 2004.

So how does one stop the other?

Now there is a new building there, business is thriving, the market is at the highest ever, housing and housing prices are up
all signs are moving up and forward (instead of down and backwards) yet all of that is hidden in all these debunked smears.

imho and you are free to disagree.

[idwiyo]

218. You seriously believe that what you wrote in your previous post is true?

I am talking about this:

graham4anything (9,983 posts)
206. but it has stopped many 9-11s. When nothing happened, it means it worked.

[graham4anything]

220. yes. There has not been another 9-11 by professional terrrorists in the USA since 9-11

there have been many, many extremist shootings though
(and the thrill kill perps of Boston(one of whom it was said did a prior triple murder in MAss.)

now, that alone shows that there is NO snooping whatsoever, as it is not aimed at stopping crimes like that.

It is for international terrorism.

[idwiyo]

244. Have you ever heard about Okham's razor? n/t

[Aerows]

274. I've never heard such unadulterated horseshit in my life

But those that are willing to play along, can believe it. (not directed at you)

[idwiyo]

320. For a few minutes I actually was willing to give G4A a benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately it looks

like I was wrong. I am still kind of speechless.

[Aerows]

251. Repairing our infrastructure

doesn't benefit defense contractors, which are the most important people in the world. Don't you get that? Nothing is more important than siphoning off tax money to a defense contractor. If I have to add the sarcasm tag, we are in worse trouble than I thought.

[idwiyo]

213. That's the best sarcastic post against NSA I have seen so far. Pure genius!

[mbperrin]

395. It has stopped nothing.

9/11 was all that was needed when Bush decided to go after Iraq, which had nothing to do with it at all.

That was the surrender of the United States to the terrorists and to the corporate fatcats who have profited selling useless war shit at huge prices rather than having to actually work for a living.

9/11 was dramatic, but a loser in the casualty sense. 17 TIMES as many Americans die by drunk drivers EVERY year as died in 9/11, a singular event where the purchase of plane tickets and box cutters have cost us TRILLIONS "fighting" terror. You can't wage war on a noun.

And that's not the highest preventable death toll, either.

The war was over 9/11, and the United States surrendered.

Now it's time to bust out of this rich man's profit-making prison.

[Morning Dew]

238. I guarantee that if tomorrow the policy is changed...

you will support it without reservation.


Not a doubt in my mind on that.

[idwiyo]

323. Of course he would! G4A unquestionably supports the president! :)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

192. Of course not.

When a poster on an internet message board asks for expressions of support or dislike for something, that's hardly a loyalty oath.

Jeez.

[Dragonfli]

269. It was Congress's political decision to grant immunity to North that screwed up th conviction

I have explained this to you before, yet you insist on lying - I will repost it for you again.

North was indicted in March 1988 on 16 Iran/contra charges, along with Poindexter, retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Richard V. Secord and Albert Hakim in a 23-count indictment. After the cases were severed and the central conspiracy charges were dropped due to classified-information problems, North stood trial beginning in February 1989 on 12 counts. On May 4, 1989, he was found guilty of three counts, including aiding and abetting obstruction of Congress, shredding and altering official documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity from Secord

The appeals were argued at the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on February 6, 1990. The court ruled on July 20, 1990.

By a 2-1 vote, the Appeals Court set aside North's convictions. The divided court ruled that Judge Gesell erred in failing to hold a full hearing as required by Kastigar to ensure that the prosecution witnesses made no use of North's immunized congressional testimony.

Despite the dismissal of North's convictions, the prosecution of the case showed that even individuals entrenched in national security matters can be held accountable for crimes committed in the course of their official duties. It was not classified information, after all, that caused North to prevail on appeal. It was Congress's political decision to grant immunity to North, despite the danger it posed to prosecution.

You really should stop defending Republicans illegal actions and suggesting they are untouchable. The rule of law is the only thing that is there to keep them and frankly all of us in line.

Do not hold some above the law for political reasons unless you dare admit a belief that there are those the law applies to and those that they do not apply to, in truth such a system is not a Democracy.

I do not know if you take your stance due to loyalty to criminal Republicans or loyalty to those too spineless to charge them with the crimes they have committed, but neither option would endear me to your POV.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2985697

[Hissyspit]

270. Oh, good goddamn...

[Maven]

295. Yes it is a loyalty oath, IMO.

To the Constitution of the United States of America.

[Demit]

58. What cali said.

It's not only what they're doing with the information they get now, it's what they could do with it in the future. Doesn't bode well.

[MannyGoldstein]

60. It's DoublePlusBad

And needs to stop if we're to not slide into despotism.

[diabeticman]

61. It is absoluetly wrong.

[Notafraidtoo]

62. I am with you.

I find it strange anyones for mass surveillance.

[zeemike]

64. Normally I don't do check in threads.

But this is important...probably the most important thing in years.

[bigwillq]

65. K and R (nt)

[libdude]

67. Constitutional Rights

are not granted by the government that is in power at the time, they are to be " protected abd defended " and it goes without saying, respected, and should be the measuring rod before any President, Senator, Representative, agency head, down to the lowest level government employee takes any action which might violate or infringe.
I support the ACLU in their lawsuit against the government violation and infringement of my Constitutional Rights, I am a Verizon customer.
As Sen. Sanders and others have pointed out, according to the Patriot Act, a request for a warrant to obtain personal information, it must be based on probable cause, collecting my data in a massive data base is not based on probable cause, thus a violation of the 4th Amendment.
The President, who I voted for, is absolutely wrong to not oppose this program and to take steps to end this program and delete the collected data on all information, not based on a properly issued warrant based on probable cause as given in the Constitution. He also need to request and receive the resignation of the NSA Director Clapper, for lying to Congress.

[Michigan-Arizona]

68. Checking in N/T

[Snake Plissken]

70. as if spying on ourselves isn't bad enough, but we are being forced to pay for it too

Yeah lets cut money to feed children or provide medical coverage to senors so we can use it to spy on ourselves

[Yo_Mama]

83. You bring up a good point

80 billion a year is a big chunk of change, and one might suspect that if say 40 billion a year was used to beef up actual investigators that we would get more bang for our buck, plus be safer.

The government is spending huge resources collecting all this data on everyone, yet it doesn't seem to be able to appropriately investigate cases in which it has multiple specific warnings about individuals. This should be a clue to us all that something has gone badly wrong.

The fact is that if your neighbor calls the cops with a tip that you are dealing drugs, the police can take that info to a judge and get a search warrant. How is it that when the Tsarnaev character generated multiple warnings from several different foreign governments that all this machinery was not brought into play?

My guess is that we are missing the forest for the trees by collecting this incredible mass of information on the vast majority of residents and citizens who have absolutely no connection to or interest in terrorism.

[temmer]

74. Here I am!

[godai]

75. Checking in. n/t

[WillyT]

76. Checking In... K & R !!!

[cali]

78. Thanks, Willy.

[Yo_Mama]

79. Opposed, and a link to the ACLU suit explaining why this is illegal

http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/nsa_phone_spying_complaint.pdf

I strongly urge everyone to read it, especially if the individual doesn't think this is a problem. The Patriot Act is being grossly misused.

[magellan]

80. Yo!

And a kick!

[warrant46]

81. K & R

[CTyankee]

84. I see what you are doing here.

Just FYI...

[L0oniX]

212. Agent Mike? ...is that you?

[CTyankee]

265. Yep, sure is.

[L0oniX]

267. Well there ya have it folks ...the government does not lie.

[CTyankee]

268. oh sure it does. my thoughts aren't in that vein...

[groovedaddy]

85. Check! Read the 4th Amendment! Honor it!

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Octafish]

87. It's not like it's the end of democracy.

Just the end of America's.

Q: Have you noticed how ANGRY the supporters of the national spy network get when discussing Snowden?

[HangOnKids]

207. Apoplectic is the word

I find it odd and disappointing and quite pathetic. I have a bright child who is well informed, so I refrain from calling it childish behavior. But it is snotty.

[Octafish]

217. Same reaction comes out of conservatives when mentioning FDR or JFK: Fury!

Why are conservatives so angry?

August 10, 2008 12:00 am • SCOTT CAWELTI

One trait seems to mark most die-hard conservatives: anger. They're furious fit-pitchers. And they seem to have come out of the chute that way, not starting life as good-natured, easygoing types who saw the light, but as rhetorical flame-throwers from diaperhood. Was Ann Coulter ever good-natured?

Of course I mean conservative superstars Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly, but they've spawned a mass of imitators and Internet bloggers who sound just as angry and mean-spirited as their national counterparts.

Examples of their corrosive invective abound, so I won't repeat any here. Rather, I'm curious about why they seem so consistently apoplectic, so willing to demonize everyone who doesn't toe their line.

In effect, they make reasoned debate all but impossible, reducing argument to juvenile button-pushing.

SNIP...

But why are they so angry? Three reasons.

CONTINUED...

http://wcfcourier.com/columnists/cawelti/why-are-conservatives-so-angry/article_d00ba564-ae71-52be-8a8c-696a654b0538.html

PS: I bet your kid is outstanding in every way, HangOnKids.

[HangOnKids]

224. Can you find her here Octa?

Just a bit more grown up than the fountain picture. Hint, she is the tall one in the back row.

[Octafish]

234. Brilliant and Beautiful and, best of all, Good.

I've seen that picture somewhere before...

[HangOnKids]

242. Very Good She & Her BFF Are Volunteering At The Catholic Charities Thrift Store Today

This is her first Summer w/o day care and I have been so nervous, she and I agreed if there was no daycare she needed to volunteer during the day. Good goofy kid.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

273. quislings behavior madam

[HangOnKids]

276. Very Unattractive and Profoundly Shallow Quislings

But, is there any other type of quisling?

[Rise Rebel Resist]

279. I'm sure theyll still surprise us somehow

[HangOnKids]

280. By Getting Uber Quisling?

Or Quisling Squared?:

[Rise Rebel Resist]

330. I like the sound of quisling squared

[RevStPatrick]

89. I don't like it one bit. Not ONE. DAMN. BIT.

However, I wasn't the least bit surprised by this news, and I find some of the outrage to be amusing.
Really? People are shocked to find out this is happening?
Suckers.

And I also don't really know what we can do about this.
I feel like the only real way something as big and entrenched as the surveillance state gets dismantled would be:

A- after getting our asses totally kicked in World War 3, or
B- after an economic meltdown to make 2008 look like boom times.

I don't like either alternative.
And it's not going to go away simply because we write a letter to our congresscritters.

I live within walking distance of the WTC/Ground Zero, and I know that my city still has a big target painted on its back. There are Yemeni shop owners in my neighborhood, and I'm reasonably sure that some of them send money back home, and some of that money eventually makes its way to "the bad guys."

However, for some fairly low-level employee of some private company contracted by government spooks to have access to anything about me at all... is totally ridiculous, and it make me want to say bomb jihad ricin death to america in every single communication, just to fuck with them.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

90. I oppose this spy program in the strongest possible terms. n/t

[cartach]

92. "If you support all this,it would be nice if you could just ignore this thread"

No discussion whatsoever! This thread is a one sided propaganda piece only and any objections will not be tolerated. I suggest people like you are more of a threat.

[cali]

101. lol. it would be nice is hardly some order or directive, hon.

clearly you are free to discuss here whatever your little heart desires.

pathetic.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. And yet your post contains no objections, no specific words supporting that which you

support, you offer only an insult to the OP. No contribution of ideas, point of view, just a vapid insult.
For a person who claims to have information others need, your writing seems very focused on other posters, not counterpoints to 'propaganda' just bloody awful insults to good DUers.

[idwiyo]

114. Politely asking to refrain from posting is "will not be tolerated"? This post is not a poll, its a

simple 'check in if you are a like minded person', in other words - 'I'd like to know how many people who support my point of view are here'.

If you see this thread as "a one sided propaganda" why not to start another OP that would ask people who support the opposite view to check in? It will counterbalance this one, if that's what you want. I would definitely not post in that thread.

[truebluegreen]

125. Well, bless your heart.

[Aerows]

193. LOL

I couldn't agree more.

[treestar]

93. Your description is overwrought

Hyperbole.

[cali]

102. lol. not even a little overwrough and certainly not hyperbole.

but continue your whining by all means, hon.

[NRaleighLiberal]

94. checking in...k & r.

[Aerows]

195. OT

but that first tomato looks absolutely delicious

[neohippie]

95. I'm opposed to this program and what we already have learned about it

But, I'm sure that there is a lot more to this whole thing than we are all aware of, so I am anxiously awaiting for more information to be revealed...

If we throw away our country's values in order to feel safer what exactly are we defending and fighting for?

[GoneFishin]

109. You can count on it being the tip of the iceberg. A few brave people are speaking out at the risk

of spending life in prison. You can be sure that there are many times that number who are uncomfortable about what is happening but are too terrified to speak out.

If I was part of the power structure in one of these spy organizations, right now I would be terrified that a few brave whistle-blowers might embolden a few more, and then more, eventually opening a flood gate of whistle-blowers. That is likely why they are crushing these first ones so brutally.

[RainDog]

98. This gets to larger issues

Do not want a "guilty until proven innocent" policy regarding privacy.

Don't want future presidents to have this power.

AND

What this issue also gets to is protections for citizens in general.

People try to argue this is a non-issue by noting how much data various companies have and how people are targeted for ads (and how this, too, can be used in ways that cause harm.)

...so, it's not just govt. use of data - it's also about some regulations to protect citizens from private entities as well.

But THE most important aspect of this is the way that people who want to DO GOOD but are outside of the power structure will be and are and have been targeted throughout U.S. history - and those people, overwhelmingly, have been more liberal than their govt.

So, giving a license because of the fear of those who do bad also allows authoritarians to target those who do good.

And those are the people who need to be protected.

[lame54]

99. I'm in

[B2G]

105. Kick

[hlthe2b]

107. Until I receive detailed information to the contrary, I stand with ACLU on this...

Even if I give the intense benefit of the doubt to the administration that what they say is being done is the extent and the full extent, there is NO way that I believe that collecting all this data will not eventually result in horrendous abuse--by someone.

[Hotler]

113. Yo! n/t

[Oilwellian]

120. Hey NSA...go fuck yourself. Thank you. n/t

[truebluegreen]

121. Absolutely!

Thank you for posting this.

[grahamhgreen]

122. I work at a prominent neo-con think tank and post far right ideology on this board frequently,

and let me tell you, my intent is to hijack this thread and get people talking about any kind of weird, esoteric issues, anything, really, in order to de-focus this community on the issue of the clear violation of the constitution by the powers that be.

[cali]

127. you post word salad and loyalty test dog shit on this board frequently.

[grahamhgreen]

140. Clarity is simple.

[grahamhgreen]

145. Violation of the Fourth Amendment is a crime.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[cali]

146. do you have point? what argument are you trying to make?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

148. I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you and making fun of a certain clownish figure who constantly

derails threads.

[idwiyo]

150. Damn, I thought you were replying to G4A. My apologies. The poster you replying to is agreeing with

you. Check their original post, there is a sarcasm smilie there.

[Dragonfli]

275. I have never seen Grahamgreen support the Graham Cracker, the former does have a sense of humor tho

The latter appears to have severe cognitive impairments.

[idwiyo]

319. I misread the username, that's why I apologised and rewrote my post. :)

And to tally agree on what you said.

[L0oniX]

188. O geeze ...at first I thought you were the other graham.

[Aerows]

203. You aren't a whack-a-doodle Graham

It's a shame so many missed your sarcasm tag.

[ananda]

126. I have opposed the Patriot Act and the expansion of surveillance..

.. since it started during Bushinc.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

128. why only Americans, id like you to stop spying on us yurpeans

[cali]

134. uh, try reading the op, dear.

first line beneath the op title- "and others". That would include Europeans.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

151. just as well love

[Ilsa]

129. I oppose the massive surveillance being conducted on Americans.

There are no checks and balances on the private contractors. I have no confidence that information won't be misused or abused, by politicians or the corporatists, especially without repercussions to those conducting the surveillance.

[malthaussen]

130. I kind of like the US Constitution

Flawed as it is, and shredded as it has become. But I am bemused by all the frantic outrage now. The Patriot Act is not news. No-knock warrants, agencies exempt from the 4th amendment, and wiretaps and other surveillance have been going on for my entire lifetime, and I was born when the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn. Look at the numbers of legislators that supported the Patriot Act and related outrages, look at the number of citizens who jump on the "whatever it takes" bandwagon as soon as the talking heads tell them to be scared... of course we need to start somewhere, and late is better than never, but we have a lot of work ahead before we can reclaim our birthright from an Executive that has been steadily eroding it regardless of who sits in the Oval Office.

-- Mal

[AsahinaKimi]

131. So you can add our name to the Surveillance list???

um.. no. kidding!

[lastlib]

132. I stand with Freedom. The Constitution forbids these KGB tactics.

[LiberalLoner]

133. Me here, checking in.

[snot]

135. Check!

[Mc Mike]

136. The ACLU is protecting our national security

by opposing the illegal elimination of the rights of the citizens of our nation. Those legal rights are what our nation is all about.

It's funny how the gov has to suspect all 300 million of us are potential terrorists, they have to know about every thing we do, due to 'national security'. While their actions are 'classified', so we can't know about anything they do, due to 'national security'. A complete inversion, since our national security actually should mean that our rights are secure, and that we citizens have oversight of our government's actions.

Post-er Yo Mama (post 83 above), and post-er Eridani on another thread, both brought up an excellent point -- collecting this huge volume of truly irrelevant information about hundreds of millions of innocent people is burying the few real important surveillance finds that our domestic spying apparatus might use to prevent terrorist attacks. So the massive surveillance programs defeat the stated purpose for their existence.

After 9/11, l'il bush (the ex-CIA director's son) made sure that nobody in the massive and expensive intel / surveillance apparatus of our nation had to answer for the obvious failure to safeguard national security. Instead, the key players were promoted and given medals. And the 'obvious' answer to the catastrophe was successful demands that their already bloated budgets be hugely augmented. That's like fire-fighters showing up to a blazing building and pumping gasoline on it, then getting medals for their actions and a big budget increase to buy more 'fire-fighting' equipment.

[Smarmie Doofus]

137. Check. Gimme a hard one next time. nt

[modeforjoe]

138. Stop the spying

Stop the spying; stop the wars.

[democrank]

139. K & R

Reread reply #104.

[LittleGirl]

141. As a former IT administrator

we had domain access that allowed us the see everyone's documents on the network. We had to sign documents that we were forbidden to snope and share and our German HQ had a serious problem when lawyers needed emails from our employees in a lawsuit. In Germany, it was against company policy because of citizen privacy laws there but in the US, we had the patriot act so they had to comply with our requests.

I'll never forget our firewall admin that had found child porn coming into our network and followed it all of the way to the employees' computer. He said in order to get the guy fired (and prosecuted) he had to supply the police force with the photos and videos the guy had downloaded. He said to me "I'll never be able to un-see those photos." It disturbed him and I get shivers just remembering the look in his eyes when he said it.

[Aerows]

210. I've been there

I had to do the same thing because I was an Exchange Administrator and had to open the mailbox of an employee for the Human Resources director. I don't ever want to see such shit again.

[Aerows]

226. And as nutty as it seems

these people want to get caught. They do it in broad daylight, technically speaking, daring someone to come after them. Then you have to sift through things that would make everyone throw up.

[LittleGirl]

249. I couldn't believe the guy did this at work

He was an engineer, so he wasn't uneducated. I don't know if he 'wanted' to get caught but I don't know human behavior like that. sick people.

[Aerows]

253. The one I dealt with was sick

I am not even going to go there describing, because I need brain bleach just thinking about it.

[Roland99]

142. Hear! Hear!

[William769]

143. I stand with the this also.

[dgibby]

147. Count me in!

I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the US when I joined the Navy. This is about as unconstitutional as it gets.

The NSA is a component of the DOD, and as such, is unconstitutional on it's face, as the military is prohibited by law to take any action in the US against it's citizens.

If that's not bad enough, the NSA has contracted with Booz Allen, which is owned by The Carlyle Group, which is the Bush Family and Friends little playground. No doubt they're laughing all the way to the bank!

So, the bottom line is this: our tax money is going to pay for unconstitutional search and seizure of our most personal data, and making war criminals and their cronies rich in the process. And oh, BTW, what would keep Booz Allen from feeding this info to little Jebbie(or any other repuke) if he decides to run?

I think this whole surveillance program is an abomination and much more dangerous than we know. Why else would Udall, Merkley, Wyden, Sanders, et al, be so concerned?

I was against this when Bush was POTUS, I'm against it now, and I'll be against it if the next POTUS (D or R) continues it.

[jen63]

183. Check, check

Yes, this!

[BrotherIvan]

294. ^^This!^^

I am relieved to see so many on this thread, proving the point that the authoritarian BOrG is just a small group of screamers. Enough 11th Dimensional Chess and Rope-a-Dopes. Don't be sucked into their insanity.

[Not Sure]

312. Hear, hear

Well said.

[Uncle Joe]

149. You rang?

Thanks for the thread, cali.

[darkangel218]

152. K&r nt

[westerebus]

153. Why would a government engage in mass surveillance of the law abiding Citizens?

The first thing I can think of is it does not trust them.

The second is it has good reason not to trust them.

Which begs the question: Why doesn't the government trust them?

Because the law abiding Citizens oppose the policies of the government it sees as unfair, unjust and criminal.

What's the duty of a law abiding Citizen?

When in the course of human events, it becomes self evident that the current political system has become so corrupted to the extent Federal Authorities act in opposition to Constitution by engaging in mass surveillance of the Citizens of the Nation, it is the duty of the law abiding Citizens to oppose such actions and demand redress; is what I think.


as usual I apologize in advance for my grammar and spelling..

[Aerows]

230. The big reason is that

the public will vote them out of office. The duty of a law abiding Citizen is to not vote in people that will stay in office at any price, including the Constitution. But that's just what they are doing. And more than a dozen of them need to be ejected from Congress because they have pissed on the Constitution and taken a dump on the Bill of Rights. And they aren't all Republicans, either.

I hold people accountable regardless of what party they announce they are for. Wrong is wrong, and it has no affiliation.

[westerebus]

339. There's way more than a dozen that need to go.

On either side.

[Aerows]

343. You aren't wrong.

LOL.

[tavalon]

396. Just required repeating

When in the course of human events, it becomes self evident that the current political system has become so corrupted to the extent Federal Authorities act in opposition to Constitution by engaging in mass surveillance of the Citizens of the Nation, it is the duty of the law abiding Citizens to oppose such actions and demand redress; is what I think.

[westerebus]

414. I'm encouraged that many see this continuation of the War on US Citizens for what it is...

[cali]

154. It's interesting to see how this has upset some people.

That certainly wasn't my intention at all.

[Aerows]

261. It isn't you with the problem

I certainly don't see it that way. Some people will defend anything as long as it's for their "team" even if it is heinous.

[haikugal]

155. I'm with you and the ACLU.

This is unconstitutional and not what I mean when I talk about transparency. The spin on this is tremendous. We need to get rid of the patriot act among other things...start a conversation my ass.

[SugarShack]

156. Checking BACK in, after being warned by DU for complaining a while back!

[Union Scribe]

157. Late but checking in. nt

[ArcticFox]

158. Yes

[tblue]

159. No to Big Brother!

[truebrit71]

160. Here!

Hi Agent Mike! Hope the wife and kids are doing well!

[Overseas]

161. K&R.

[dkf]

162. We need to roll this back ASAP. All that data is power they have that we do not.

I do not trust every future politician many of who we've never heard of yet to use this properly.

How can we?

[Aerows]

262. We can't

And I say that as a Democrat that rarely agrees with you, but agrees with you 100% on this matter. Only an idiot would think this will end up benign.

[stupidicus]

163. checking in

eom

[forestpath]

164. Checking in

[Hell Hath No Fury]

165. The ACLU speaks for me.

[JW2020]

166. present

[backscatter712]

167. Fuck yeah! For democracy's sake, we can't tolerate Google for Tyrants. n/t

[Apophis]

168. Checking in.

[Aerows]

169. I oppose it

Nothing good will come of it.

[bobduca]

170. card carrying ACLU-member kick

:kick:

[caseymoz]

171. Me! nt

[Catherina]

172. Reporting for duty my friend!

[cali]

174. thanks Catherina

[Catherina]

240. Reciprocal thanks

because I should be thanking you for jumping to the front of this. It's my honor to be fighting in this trench with you, and all the other principled people here.

Solidarity

[Brigid]

173. Count me in.

[kestrel91316]

175. (raising hand in opposition to unreasonable searches and seizures of all kinds)

[snappyturtle]

177. Checking in! Thanks cali. nt

[reorg]

178. I have always assumed they're doing it

but it's nice to see people with direct, concrete knowledge getting the message out.

[Heathen57]

179. Kicking and checking in

I got hit by other progressives about demanding the President as well as any past or future need to follow the Constitution. I also don't care who put these rules in except to point out to the Neanderthals it wasn't Obama as they were trying to claim. It needs to be removed immediately and if really needed, new programs that follow the Constitutional Bill of Rights more closely.

We know that Congress considers the citizens as the enemy, and the way the Administration has been acting, I am beginning to wonder about there.

[johnnyreb]

180. k&r -- Our surveillance state is out of control

song:
http://www.sonicyouth.com/prmp3/FreedomIsntFreeTonight.mp3

Top Secret America - PBS Frontline
Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Dana Priest traces the journey from 9/11 to the Marathon bombings and investigates the secret history of the 12-year battle against terrorism.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/

[bluedeathray]

181. It might be "legal" for Google and Yahoo

But it expressly is NOT for the US Government.

[L0oniX]

202. I hear that. I hate the stupid false equivalency crazy batshit.

Google will not be whisking anyone off to the underworld of US sponsored torture chambers.

[Aerows]

225. Which is precisely

my problem with it. Fire me, that's okay. Entomb me in prison for the rest of my life, hell no, just because you got something wrong. And getting things wrong seems to be a government specialty.

[Babel_17]

185. Well, it's complicated, it's more I don't trust it

I'm in favor of there being some electronic surveillance. But it's like we've learned little. Programs like these need to based on the knowledge that there will be attempts to abuse them and to circumvent the safeguards, that some will see the programs as tools that can be circumvented. We need to go into it realizing there's an inherent danger to our Constitution.

So, I oppose the way we're doing things and I'll check in.

[prairierose]

187. I oppose the downfall of civil rights....

for the sake of a little security.

I refuse to be frightened either by the terrorists or the despots who want to control me.

[limpyhobbler]

189. present.

Good thread. It's good to know we are not alone when it comes to this issue.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

190. Yup. Do Not Like.

[LibDemAlways]

191. Checking in. Land of the free? No. Home of the brave? Hell no.

[Matariki]

196. Absolutely. No matter which "side" is responsible for it.

[daleanime]

197. When it's wrong.....

it's wrong.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

198. I oppose it and the illusion of "safety" it pretends.

[L0oniX]

199. K & R ...and for fucks sake stop spying on Canada

[h2ebits]

201. Checking in. I oppose the tyranny--'nuff said.

[CountAllVotes]

204. checking in alright!

Enough already a long long time ago!

This must stop!

We are The People of the United States don't like this kind of crap!

It does nothing to "protect" us.

There is not one positive thing I can see about is and it sure isn't accomplishing anything but creating havoc best I can tell!

& recommend!

[kenny blankenship]

205. I am opposed, just ask the NSA

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:40 PM - Edit history (1)

They have all my posts on the subject - including the ones I just "previewed" but never hit "send" on.

[nineteen50]

211. This program of meta-data mining

is being used to determine the intent and timing of dissent and protest in order to control and defuse it. It is the new favorite tool of the power-elite oligarchy, which owns both political parties and has wrapped itself in the authority and cloak of the American Government.

[BobbyBoring]

215. Who could support it?

What really pisses me off is all the wingers screaming. Had any of them objected to Shubs shredding of their beloved "constitution", we might not be here now. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO, It was treason, treason I tell ya to speak against the Commander in Chief during time of war!

[frylock]

219. sign me up

knr

[liberal_at_heart]

221. checking in.

[Live and Learn]

222. Didn't like it when it started. Don't like it now. nt

[grantcart]

223. I am concerned about the oversight and the cost versus the benefit of not only this program

but the hundreds of billions that are spent on defense and intelligence.

As for the 'sprawling and ever expanding surveillance' there is much more invasive looking at your financial records by the government and big business on the internet.

[Aerows]

271. Agreed

the cost ratio can't possibly be worth it, unless you are a defense contractor.

[DirkGently]

227. We cannot trust a secret process, ripe for abuse, to be fair & just.

- We know this system was set up to be abused, and was being abused, and that the NSA in particular did not bat an eye at following Bush's secret, illegal orders. Then they went further, passing around sex calls for their own amusement.

So "safeguards are in place," and "we follow the law" are both meaningless statements, when made about secret activities.

- The present administration will not discuss recent illegalities, or how they have been addressed.

- The present administration has shown a willingness to engage in Bush-esque generosity erring on the side of excessive executive power, like the application of "Emergency" suspension of Miranda in ever possible terror case

But the issue is the process. Collecting sensitive information in secret has never NOT been abused. Chris Hayes did a good job last night reminding us that the FBI used its un-monitered powers of surveillance, to for example, attempt to drive MLK to suicide (by sending anonymous notes with information on his illicit affairs).

And we cannot simply accept that "it works." Remember Cheney and waterboarding? He'll tell those lies until the day he dies. And some will believe him, because they want to.

Homeland Security was apparently so busy monitoring OWS Facebook activity and estimating the possible "damage to the financial sector" that it paid little heed to warnings about the Boston Marathon bomber's activities in Russia.

So we know where their priorities are, no matter who is in office.

Do WE simply want to believe massive surveillance protects us? Do progressives now give the government spying operations *traditionally used to suppress us* the benefit of the doubt? Why? Because we like this President?

It is PROCESS that cannot be trusted. Not now. Not ever.

[Android3.14]

228. Effin A

EOM

[richmwill]

229. Checking in (n/t)

[FlyByNight]

231. Still wondering where the probable cause is

That's assuming the 4th Amendment isn't being ignored - which, of course, it is.

[xiamiam]

233. on a democratic and progressive forum..every member should be checking in..imo..nt

[AllyCat]

236. Aye.

[Maedhros]

237. I've been pissed off about this since 2006. [n/t]

[grntuscarora]

239. I oppose. nt

[Morning Dew]

241. checking in n/m

[Maven]

243. Aye.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

245. Checking and Reccing.

[gussmith]

246. I Do

I'm opposed to our bungling government (mostly congress) authorizing spying on Americans. All they are paying attention to is the next campaign contribution.

[Aerows]

266. Which they should be

because I won't be handing them a dime, and I'm certain I'm not the only one judging by what I've heard co-workers, family members and friends say after this debacle was revealed. I wish I lived in WI because Carl Levin after his fucking over of the bill that removes the requirement for an independent judge to look into cases of military rape can kiss my ass, too.

Democrats acting like anything but Democrats can fuck off. Too many of them are so scared for their positions that they act like Republicans, which is not why they were elected in the first place. They were elected to be Democrats.

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

247. Please count me in.

[JoeyT]

252. K&R

I'm amazed that people can't see this is going to be used beyond terrorism. Stuff like this is ALWAYS used beyond the thin justification for it.

[ellenfl]

254. checking in. although i don't know what we can do about it. big brother has

been watching for a long, long time. he's just got better tools now. ben franklin was right . . . about security AND beer.

[Swede Atlanta]

255. Checking in....

I am not opposed to increased surveillance due to the threat of both domestic and foreign terrorism.

But it needs to be done in a way that is
(a) Consistent with the Constitution
(b) Is enacted and implemented with a reasonable degree of transparency (sorry the argument "it's secret" means we don't tell you shit doesn't fly with me)
(c) Is subject to MEANINGFUL oversight, i.e. not just Congress (notoriously corrupt) but also an independent body reviews the procedures for preventing misuse, etc.
(d) No private contractors are used for this purpose. This is a "ministerial" function and is not eligible to be outsourced
(e) The law should be subject to immediate repeal based on certain verifiable triggers and never in effect for more than 24 months without a need for re-authorization

[JimDandy]

256. Check'n and Rec'n

[Sognefjord]

257. Checking in also

[Hatchling]

258. K&R nt

[navarth]

259. check! nt

[Dash87]

260. The ACLU is an absolute blessing these days.

[Phlem]

263. A hearty

Hell yes I oppose it, all the way back to shrub, all the way back to the plutocrats who paid off politicians to install it, I would guess way before shrub.

-p

[im1013]

264. Blatantly unconstitutional!

We need to stand up and fight this NOW before it's too late. We need
to come together as a people, regardless of political views. It's the only way
anything will work. That's the very reason for all the bs and propaganda to keep
us all so divided and hating one another. Because they KNOW if we all came together
on something, we would be an unstoppable force.

@Restore_the4th

r/restorethefourth

[TakeALeftTurn]

272. I absolutely oppose the Mass Surveillance that is currently being done on EVERY American

.

[ctsnowman]

278. Checking in.

Also even if people agree with the program... how can they justify the cost at a time when we are cutting social programs?

Thanks for the post.

[Autumn]

281. Checking in

I vehemently oppose the massive surveillance being conducted on American citizens.

[Dragonfli]

282. check /nt

[defacto7]

283. I'll check in...

Because I don't mind being heard....

BUT...

There is only one ultimate use for threads like this and it's very ironic. It divides the "in" from the "out" on an issue and I think that is not a great idea. It forces people to agree, disagree or lie and it makes for suspicion of those who don't post. Kind of like forcing a group into 2 camps and that is "almost" as bad as the issue itself. If people disagree and discuss and argue between themselves, great. But forcing an "outing" that divides people is substandard for human discourse.

So, I will check in on the issue because I want to, but a method like this is really a nasty way to promote discord and suspicion and that I do not support.

[Klukie]

284. Here

[reusrename]

285. I'm opposed.

What they are doing now is wrong. When OWS is labeled an insurgency by this program, while at the same time the baggers are being funded by it, then I have to say it really scares me.

There probably is a case that can be made for using this information for noble purposes, like going after war criminals or something. The problem is, once that type of use is started all the records will be burned and the system will be shut down, because those are the exact folks running this show.

My personal preference would be to use the technology for positive change. I want to see what's behind the curtain. Show me the matrix. Make it all public.

[tavalon]

399. Oh, don't worry, the Obama Administration has promised to be the most

transparent government ever. That they've turned out to be the most secretive ever is just a weird glitch in the Matrix. I'm pretty sure it's actually like Obama says not the way his administration acts.

[cherokeeprogressive]

287. .

[ReasonableToo]

288. If you oppose Nixons watergate activity...

...you should oppose this data mining.

[avaistheone1]

289. Checking in & K&R

Spying on Americans is about as UN-American as you can get.

[damnedifIknow]

290. Oppose with a passion

[Agony]

291. I concur.

and further more it is not like any of us think that the US government should have NO secrets. The security state is way out of control.

A court order that is classified until 2038? FUCK THAT!

I'll give you 13 months to make your classified crap do its work for the US people, after that, figure out something else.

If you need more than 13 months, beg for it... if it that important.

Agony

[mnhtnbb]

292. Opposed to mass surveillance. Not surprised, though. J Edgar would be proud.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

293. I oppose

[serbbral]

296. This is nothing new

Lord knows I DON'T like this surveillance being conducted on American citizens, but at the same time, I find it interesting and questionable as to why so many people are making a big deal about this now. I'm sorry but this is nothing new. This type of thing has been going on way before Pres. Barack Obama became President and if you believe it has not been happening, then I think you are very naive.

[tavalon]

400. No, it's not new

Many of us suffer from outrage exhaustion and there is so much to be outraged about that we sometimes seem misguided. This is one thing we never should have turned away from (god, I remember our apoplectic fury over TIA and ATTs back room of massive data mining). It's in our faces now again and I hope we can maintain the steam.

[steve2470]

297. k&r nt

[burnodo]

298. kick and check

nt

[JNelson6563]

299. I oppose it under any President. Ever.

As an Obama supporter I have to say this has been rather disappointing.

Julie

[jtuck004]

300. Do you mean the secret surveillance of the federal police, or the surveillance done

by private firms for profit that bring us, say, the pop-up ads on DU, but is also used for more nefarious things?

That secret one I have real trouble with on several levels. And I have a fair amount of concern about the other one as well. Not so much where it results in ads on DU or any other site, or which movie theater is closer, but the fact that private companies with no controls are amassing so much data about our behaviors and using it to manipulate us for profit, and power, with no oversight. None. (Companies like JP Morgan Chase or Walmart come to mind). I could use such data to determine whether I could sell more alcohol into your neighborhood, or perhaps ways to sell you and your neighbors more loans that will go bad while you go bankrupt, leaving the taxpayers on the hook to the banks while I walk away with the profits from fees, to design propaganda programs, etc. There are a thousand other nefarious things that could be done today, and a whole lot more we haven't figured out yet, but people are working on it.

Both programs are using circumstantial evidence to draw conclusions and take action, and whether that process results in something good or bad for us, or you, is highly dependent on the situation and the trustworthiness of the people involved.

What I oppose is any of it being conducted in secret. The biggest problem is that the federal government is perhaps the easiest to make more transparent, but we may well have more to fear from the other.

[barbtries]

301. checking in nt

[TNLib]

303. Checking in

nt

[Enthusiast]

304. We didn't approve of it when Soviet Russia did it.

We didn't approve of it when East Germany did it.

Why would we approve of mass surveillance in the U.S.?

There is no justification for it. And employing private contractors to carry it out? This is insanity.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Starry Messenger]

305. k&r

And why are we getting a brand-spanking new intel building in Utah when we can't fix the years-long backlog at the VA for benefits for our people. Where are the priorities?

[MoreGOPoop]

306. K & R

Fuck the Fascistic 'Patriot Act' and anything that says 'Homeland'.

[ZombieHorde]

307. Check. nt

[sevenseas]

308. Wake Up

In the 1950's we wanted ALL the spying we could get- we were afraid the Russians would knock on our doors and take over.... sounds like a joke now, but we were scared.... so we were supportive of everything we could do to spy and pry. NOW BECAUSE your little thumb keyboards are being watched, and your fascinating emails are being recorded it makes spying an outrage! GASP!!! And people like the Tsarnaev brothers heartily agree with you as they are laughing at you. To say we Americans are naive is an understatement.

[Not Sure]

309. Finally, an issue that every right wing nut I work with agrees with me on forward and backward...

... and there's division here on the issue. I never thought unconstitutional surveillance was a principle that people could be flexible on, but I continue to be amazed that I'm wrong on that.

Big Brother is watching you.

[freedom fighter jh]

310. K&R nt

[BillyRibs]

311. K&R!

[Doremus]

314. Oppose it, no matter if it's a (D), (R), (I) or none of the above.

[frustrated_lefty]

315. I oppose the surveillance state

and am frankly disgusted by its apologists.

[blkmusclmachine]

316. .

.

[LittleBlue]

317. I oppose it

No matter which party does it, unlike many on here.

[LWolf]

321. Here. nt

[babsbunny]

324. I am sick about this!

Mad as hell!

[Gravitycollapse]

325. K&R

[kiva]

326. Checking in

[warrprayer]

327. K&R!!!

x 1000

[onethatcares]

329. growing up I was told

only communist countries did such things. Somehow things changed.

I oppose massive surveillance. Massively.

[ohheckyeah]

331. This kind of shit strikes at the very heart of

what this country has claimed to be - land of the free. What a crock of shit. I'm not surprised but am appalled. I also wonder what the government's real end game is.

[Vincardog]

332. Check a roo nt

[cantbeserious]

333. Checking In - I Am Opposed

eom

[TomClash]

335. I usually hate "checkins"

But I like this one.

[Flying Squirrel]

336. Here. nt

[FiveGoodMen]

337. I'm against it.

No matter what they say, they won't let all that data sit idle.

They'll find a way to use it and it won't be good.

[southerncrone]

338. IMHO this is much more dangerous for Americans than "terrorists".

It is a broad form of terrorism, in & of itself.

[felix_numinous]

340. Checking--for checks and balances.

If THEY are doing nothing wrong, then THEY should not be opposed to being audited, or to a certain level of transparency.

It is the NSA that needs to be scrutinized and monitored to assure that they work within safe parameters. THEY who have become so powerful should be surveilled. They who have become a bottomless pit for precious trillions of dollars.

They don't even have to give up their shiny little toys, just be watched and reported on like everyone else..fair is fair.

[Canuckistanian]

341. Yes

This is a tool a dictator would LOVE to have.

In fact, that's how potential dictators GAIN power - by knowing where ALL your enemies are.

[City Lights]

342. Check.

[JackRiddler]

344. Check!

[emmadoggy]

345. Yep. Me. I oppose too. Vehemently. nt

[ybbor]

347. consider me checked in nm

[AAO]

348. Checkedy Check Check!

[Skip Intro]

349. Check. Bigger than party. It is unacceptable and we the people

should make it known that it is unacceptable.

[piedmont]

350. present. K&R

[Blue_In_AK]

352. Proud to be #300

K&R.

[awoke_in_2003]

353. I am with you, Cali. nt

[SwankyXomb]

354. Checking in.

Let me add a big old FUCK YOU to Clapper, Holder, and any other government official who thinks that their oath to the Constitution doesn't need to include the 4th Amendment.

[wildbilln864]

355. k & r!

as if they give a shit who opposes.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

356. Opposed then and now - not a hypocrit

Like many partisans have demonstrated themselves to be.

[a2liberal]

357. K&R

frightening how much support this spying gets on DU just because it's a Democratic administration (imagine if Bush were president and the exact same things were revealed)

[bvar22]

359. Here!

Should I start a Copy Cat Thread for those who SUPPORT the massive surveillance being conducted on American citizens?

[colsohlibgal]

360. Check

1984 knocking on your door.

[raindaddy]

361. Our Intelligence Gathering System Prior to 9/11

seem to be working well enough. Bush was not only warned by the CIA, but by the Clinton administration and two different countries we were about to be attacked. For whatever reason he chose to ignore the warnings and continue his vacation.

So basically we're now being told we need to give up our right to privacy because the Bush administration ignored their CIA brief?

[TroubleMan]

362. Came out of my posting hibernation to check in on this.

I can't believe all the conservative policies we used to fight against on DU daily that are now defended on DU just because "democratic" politicians now support those policies.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

363. I stand with you.

[Efilroft Sul]

364. Red Five standing by.

Long day at work and biking after. Never too late to stand for what's right, though.

[Generic Brad]

365. Checking in but...

...what about DU'ers who do not check in here daily and do not see this? Failure to check in does not necessarily equate to them being OK with it.

[suffragette]

366. Checking in

[d_b]

367. yep

[Lucky Luciano]

368. Hi Agent Mike! Lovely work you're doing!

Just sayin'!
Thought you might like my friendly comment Mike!

Run along now! No need to bother with someone like me who is proud of the good work you are doing!

[alittlelark]

369. Checkin' in

[markpkessinger]

370. Check! n/t

[AzDar]

371. I certainly oppose it.

Can't quite believe how easily people surrender their hard-won rights.

[myrna minx]

372. Checking in to agree with you and oppose this policy. K&R

I recall a time when DUers actively and vehemently opposed domestic surveillance, the office of Total Information Awareness et AL. It's wrong no matter what party is in charge.

PS - I'd like to add that Kurovski is the handsomest Duer too. <--An eternal truth that was well understood on DU 1.

[LovingA2andMI]

373. Check, Check!!

[pediatricmedic]

374. Present

[RedCappedBandit]

376. Checking in.

[cjbgreen]

378. checking in

I stand with the constitution. Massive surveillance damages democracy, secret massive surveillance destroys democracy.

[tavalon]

379. Kind of a no brainer

and yet, the fights here would say otherwise.

And if I hear meta data rather than data mining one more time, I may just go ballistic.

Meta data, BTW, is a talking point bullet. Data mining (renamed meta data for what reason, I know not) is what was going on in the Bush administration and appears to have continued or accelerated under the Obama administration.

I really, really, wanted Obama to have a different kind of legacy.

[CokeMachine]

380. I'm with you on this!!! nt

[Rex]

388. I gave up when they decided to start calling America the Homeland.

Sounded like pure horseshit to me. Reading about the history of this country and the FBI, one realizes that there are people in power way above the law and can spy on the average citizen for any fucking reason what so ever. Why would today be any different if not even more blatantly obvious?

I am going to take a crap, log that Internet spymasters! I had spicy food!

[MyDearMsOwl]

394. I oppose the citizen surveillance without probable cause

And I want an explanation of why Obama and Biden defend the practice now, after denouncing it in 2007.

[undergroundpanther]

397. I fuckin'think it's wrong.

Secrecy has gone nuts,too many sociopaths in power playing cya,classifying shit that should not be, going after news people,protesters and whistleblowers... with outsourced right wing yahoos reading listening to everything ..But they want our lives to be an open book? but they want to never be accountable for the shit they do or say...Fuck that.

[WinkyDink]

398. Checking in.

[donheld]

401. Check

[Granny M]

402. Checking in.

This has gone too far. We'll be totally screwed if another cheney-like administration gets in, and they eventually will.

[hay rick]

404. Checking in. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

405. Remember that this is what we know from whistle-blowers. What is still hidden? n/t

[Oakenshield]

406. Checking In.

It's time for this perpetual war on terror and by extension, our freedoms, to end. It's time to move on.

[LeftishBrit]

407. Yes, and on British citizens too (by our government AND yours)

Not that it surprises me in the least that it's happening.

[marions ghost]

408. Children on an electronic tether

This is the ultimate betrayal of public trust. They knew it was wrong & they did it anyway. Damn the constitution, full steam ahead. It's a weird feeling to be betrayed by so many people, all in on the secret.

Never mind taking our guns, they've taken something much more valuable. A sense of personal freedom. A sense of trust in rational government. A sense that we are trusted by our leaders.

Instead we are treated like children on an electronic tether. Guilty til proven innocent.

No words to describe the dismay of realizing just how extensive this is. It is sinking in & the implications are profound.

No matter who Snowden is, he has done us all a great service. It is better to know. It is always better to know.

[VOX]

409. It was wrong in 2001, and it still is. But I won't use the term "scandal."

This entire issue is NOT new. One senator -- one -- Russ Feingold, voted against the Patriot Act in 2001, which was written, debated and passed in a mere 45 days post-9/11. It flung the door wide open on matters of domestic surveillance.

To characterize all this as a newly-minted "scandal" only trivializes the issue and glosses over the fact that this is a far deeper, long-standing pathology.

[AZ Progressive]

411. We stand with the other 40% of Democrats who are opposed to the surveillance state

Unfortunately 49% of Democrats are in support of it, according to Gallup.

[Puglover]

412. Hmmm let's see.

Thom Hartmann, Randi Rhodes, Daniel Ellsberg and Amy Goodman among many versus a swarm of centrists(I am being kind) on DU.

Not a real tough deal here. It's not about the kid that did this or about Greenwald. It's about the conversation.

Glad to check in and kick this thread again.

[Throd]

413. Me no like.