"...if we don't wrest back this power for privacy,...our democracy has been snuffed out."

[woo me with science]

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/12/is_edward_snowden_a_hero_a

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, one of the problems that people have pointed to is that there aren’t procedures or mechanisms in place for people within the government to point out wrongdoing when it does occur. Do you think that’s one of the problems that’s occurred in this case with Edward Snowden? Or, for that matter, your most recent article was on Army whistleblower, Private Bradley Manning.

CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we used to have a mechanism. It was called the press. And we used to be able to tell our sources that they would be protected and that they would not be investigated for providing information that exposed the inner workings of power. Unfortunately, the press, like most institutions in this country, and I would add the legal profession, has largely collapsed under this corporate coup d’état that’s taken place and is no longer functioning. And I want to get back, that what this is fundamentally a debate about is whether we are going to have, through the press, an independent institution within this country that can examine the inner workings of power or not. And it is now—I mean, many of us had suspected this widespread surveillance, but now that it’s confirmed, we’re seeing—you know, why did Snowden come out publicly? Well, because I think he knew that they would find out anyway, because they have all of Glenn Greenwald’s email, phone records and everything else, and they can very quickly find out who he was speaking to and whether Snowden had contact with him. And that—you know, I speak as reporter—is terrifying, because it essentially shuts down any ability to counter the official propaganda and the official narrative and expose the crimes. And we have seen in the last few years tremendous crimes being committed by those in power. We have no ability now to investigate them.
....

CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we’re talking about the death of a free press, the death of a civil society. This is far beyond a reasonable debate. We make the East German Stasi state look like the Boy Scouts. And if we don’t wrest back this power for privacy, for the capacity to investigate what our power elite is doing, I think we can essentially say our democracy has been snuffed out.

[liberal_at_heart]

1. I don't think we can deny it anymore. We have a corrupt government, just like we see in

other parts of the world. We look at other countries and see how corrupt othe governments are we think we have a free, democratic government. We don't.

[sibelian]

2. Oh, for heaven's sake! Surely that's going too far.

Really I see a need for a debate about this, but "snuffing out our democracy?" No. Really not. Certainly not. No. Of course not. Not at all. Surely we need some balance? How could you be so extreme? You hate Obama. Are you racist? We're not snuffing out democracy. Of course we aren't. No. Not at all. Not in any way. I disagree. I think we need to discuss this. We need measured responses to these issues. We need to talk. Everything will be okay. No. We need to debate the issues. Let's not go off half-cocked. We JUST DON'T KNOW. We need balance. This is the way it's always been. Of course not. No. Really, I think you are being extreme. You need to calm down. Let's debate the issues. LOL! Really, I think this sentiment, whilst I can appreciate it, is wrong. I'm a Dem through and through. No. Not really. Surely not. No. I don't think that's true. Let's not get overwrought about this. You are entitled to your opinion. No. You are going too far. The truth lies somehwere in the middle. There is your side, and my side and the truth. No. Not at all. Was anyone surprised? I don't agree. We need balance. Surely not. Honestly, it's just not what I feel. I'm a Dem through and through. We need balance. It's not as if this was a surprise. We all knew about this. We need to talk about the issues. You hate Obama. Do you realise you're being racist? No. You love Snowden. You hate Obama. You hate Obama. You love Snowden. No. I don't agree. I'm afraid I just disagree. Why must you be so emotional about this? LOL! I think you're being extreme. You are entitled to your opinion. I'm a Dem through and through. I have a right to my opinions. We need balance. There is some truth in what you say. We need balance. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. No. We need a robust discussion. Not at all. Surely not. We need balance. You're going too far. I trust Obama. Do you realise you're being racist? I am a Dem through and through. We need balance. No. Not at all. I don't agree. Well, I just think you're wrong. We need to debate the issues. We need to have a robust discussion. No. Surely not. You hate Obama. Don't go overboard. You love Snowden. Let's not get over-emotional. No. I don't agree. We need balance. This is the way things are now. No. We need balance.

No.

We need balance.

I trust Obama.

We need balance.

No.

We need balance.

We need balance.

We need balance.





....


.
.
.

[Catherina]

5. I really hope this is satire because, as such, it's brilliant n/t

[sibelian]

17. God.

I hope you don't know anyone who genuinely thinks like that...



Actually, what am I saying, loads of people think like that. I can imagine a stream of consciousness exactly like that playing out on the heads of some of the posters on this site...

[GoneFishin]

33. Awesome compilation.

[ReRe]

59. Why, we DO know people like that...

...right here this week! Really, that was a great "anti-rant" up there. It took me about 3 lines and I said "...... waaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute."

Edited to add: Manny would be jealous

[woo me with science]

6. ...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Well played.

[leftstreet]

9. LOL

nicely done

[Laelth]

11. Very nicely done. n/t

-Laelth

[zeemike]

19. The perfect compilation...

[Marrah_G]

30. Edit: Oops... you got me!

So hard to tell what is satire these days

[Rockyj]

36. Its so scary to see so many Progressives/Liberals...

...be so wishy washy re: this issue! Why have we become so willing to allow our liberties to be taken away?
This is a no brainer! There is NO probable cause for our gov to gather this kind of info on us!
Obama is not a saint!

[synapticwave]

38. today's winner for...

...the most punctuation used in a single post.

Good stuff!

[tex-wyo-dem]

45. lol...excellent!

One you forgot though..."you sound as irrational as a teabagger"

[Enthusiast]

54. That is one funny damned post right there!

Award winning. You will be receiving your award in the mail.

[Jackpine Radical]

64. That's the only Sensible way.

(Gotta run--no time to add the woodchuck pic)

[AAO]

66. " No. Really not. Certainly not. No. Of course not. Not at all. "

Me thinks ye protesteth too mucheth.

[Lifelong Protester]

68. Almost had me!

Took me about three lines, too, to see that you were posting satire (or sarcasm). Brilliant stream of consciousness writing!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. K&R

[damnedifIknow]

4. We need to look around and see what's going on

It ain't purty

[Laelth]

7. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[leftstreet]

10. DURec

[JDPriestly]

12. Feingold -- the only senator who voted against the Patriot Act.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/07/the-only-senator-who-voted-against-the-patriot-act-seemingly-predicted-this-day-would-come/

He would make a great VP.

[ProSense]

23. When I brought up Feingold a few months back,

people claimed it was to "stifle dissent"

Flashback: Russ Feingold 'Pleased' Anwar Al-Awlaki Was Taken Out By Drone Strike
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022319856

Of course, he did vote against the Patriot Act, and issued a statement about the current debate.

Senator Feingold - the lone ‘no’ vote on Patriot Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022961467

Remember the vote for the Patriot Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987423

[forestpath]

13. Democracy was snuffed out in 2000. Obama is dressing up its rotting corpse.

[MisterP]

21. like what the Russian police found in that one genius's apartment!

[Enthusiast]

55. Can I say?

The stench is still getting through.

[maxrandb]

14. No, what "snuffs out Democracy" is when ONE individual thinks he knows what's best for us all

like Mr. Snowden.

In a Democracy, neither you, or I, or Edward Snowden gets to decide what's classified and vital to National Security. We all influence that by sending the folks we elect to Congress and the White House. We decide that by living under a system of checks and balances, that although imperfect, has worked pretty damn well for over 200 years.

What you have if you support someone like Snowden, or, taking him out of the picture, ANYONE placed in a position of trust that decides to circumvent the correct procedures for dealing with sensitive info....is ANARCHY. It's not liberalism, republicanism, libertarianism, or democracy...it's ANARCHY.

If Snowden thought this info was so important to the public, he could have...and should have, used the procedures taught to every security professional. You go to the IG. You go to Congressional Staff. You go to your companies, or the governments TS Control Officer. Hell you could even go to any number of law enforcement officials like NCIS, DIS, etc.

What you don't do is illegally copy classified information and pass it to the foreign press, or share it with the Chinese News Agency! That's even worse than anarchy...that's treason!

What if every person with a security clearance took it upon themselves to decide "what's best for all of us"? What if your doctor, lawyer, banker, video store clerk, accountant, or ANYONE in a position of trust decided "what's best for us all"?

That's the crux of this entire thing. It makes no matter whether you, or I, or ANY INDIVIDUAL thinks classified info should be released to the public...it's not our right to decide "what's best for all". That's why we have a Democracy.

[Maedhros]

18. What's with the fetishization of secrecy these days?

It's as if the only important duty of a citizen is to protect classified information.

Secret activities directed against the citizenry are not congruent with a democracy.

[99th_Monkey]

20. You confuse what is "legal" with what is constitutional.

there are such things as illegal "laws", that get enacted all the time, that
stand in stark contradiction to the document that is the ultimate authority;
i.e. the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

It is EVERY CITIZEN's duty, not just their right, to reveal, expose, countermand,
and oppose any such "law" for the fallacy that it is; and/or to expose inner
workings of government to enforce/impose such laws. THAT is precisely what
Manning, Assange, Arron Schwartz, and now Edward Snowden are "guilty" of
doing -- being true patriots.

[Swede Atlanta]

22. Well said!!!!

[maxrandb]

28. Wekk, you'd have a point, but fortunately

neither you, or I, or Ed Snowden, or Rand Paul, or ANY INDIVIDUAL gets to decide what's Constitutional and what's not!

That's what we have a judicial system for.

[99th_Monkey]

29. In case you hadn't noticed

SCOTUS has already gone over to the Dark Side, ever since
President Gore was denied his rightful victory.

Also (on edit) so do you have no reply to my post, to the substance of it,
other than to refer a concerned citizen to the US judicial system, where
it unfairly costs so much for attorneys, etc.? In other words, do you have
any duty as a citizen to your nation's constitution?

[maxrandb]

70. Yes, I spent 29 years honoring and protecting our Constitution over 29 years in the Navy

what did you do?

I guess the oath I repeatedly and continuously swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States is what enabled me to accept that Bush was President, just like I accepted that Reagan was elected President, and Clinton and Bush 1 and President Obama.

I guess my oath to the Constitution and my commitment to my country didn't take a break because I didn't get my way politically. I guess my oath to the Constitution allowed me to have faith in my country...skeptical faith, but faith none the lease.

I guess my work with classified material made me understand that I had an obligation to protect that info from unlawful disclosure, and use proper "Constitutional" procedures if I felt it needed to be scrutinized.

I guess the oath I swore to the Constitution enabled me to see that our country and our Democracy was much more important collectively than individually.

I guess that oath I swore to the Constitution is why I see that it is important for us to work within the framework of that Constitution.

I guess it made me realize that while not perfect, our country works best when we don't take it upon ourselves to decide what's Constitutional and what's not. I guess my oath required me to have faith that wrongs will be righted, and the correct path to progress with eventually win out.

I guess that's why it pisses me off that ONE guy...given the trust to "protect and defend" our Constitution, took it upon himself to decide that he didn't want to play by the rules, or that rules, procedures and the Constitutional protections that apply to us all, don't apply to him.

Again, you can argue whether or not this NSA Program is vital to National Security, or not, BUT you can't argue that Edward Snowden followed the procedures that are in place, and may I add, have been paid for in blood by security personnel for over 200 years.

That's the thing. We don't just make stuff up. Procedures to protect classified material are in place for the same reason we do FOD walkdowns on the deck of an Aircraft Carrier...because people have bled and died for those procedures.

[99th_Monkey]

71. I grieve those who have bled and died in US Imperial wars waged for corporate interests,

rather than anything related to actual legitimate defense of our nation. I grieve
for all who serve, only to pay the ultimate cost, or get maimed, traumatized for life, etc.

Thank you for your service. I also served in the US Army, during the Viet Nam war, but an
automobile wreck maimed me while on leave, right after basic training, before the guys in
black PJs could ever get a bead on me. I was honorably discharged 4-F.

Since then I've been working on political issues related to economic justice, as I kept seeing
how the rich kept getting way richer, at everyone else's expense, and I wanted to help restore
some balance and humanity to the economic playing field. I also worked to build truly affordable
housing for very poor people, doing economic development at a local level "doing development as
though people and neighborhoods really matter", esp. in lower income urban areas.

Most of my life I created my own jobs, by calling attention to the need, then writing a grant with
the support of key people around me who really "got it", and supported the application. With
very few exceptions, I nearly always dearly loved my work and now feel very fortunate to have had
all the various experiences that went with it.

[sabrina 1]

44. Exactly! I used to think 'our side' was different from theirs. But I was wrong. There are blind

partisans on both sides. And they are the reason the criminals win. They hold back those of us who could do something by legitimizing wrong doing on the part of their respective parties.

I used to so respect the odd Republican who would wake up finally and dare to disagree with something Bush said, of course s/he was generally trashed, smeared and referred to as a traitor, a Bush hater etc.

I have the same respect for those on our side who once were so excited about this president but refuse to be blinded by partisanship when it comes to our rights being abused.

[BrotherIvan]

49. +++++

[Enthusiast]

56. PLUS ONE! nt

[pmorlan1]

69. Exactly

Just think about all the unconstitutional anti-abortion laws passed in the states every other month. Those people claim those laws are legal too when everyone knows they aren't. If the Obama administration thought this was legal why would they keep blocking the Courts from ruling on the merits?

[reusrename]

25. We all have a duty to do what is moral and right.

The "just following orders" defense was abolished after the Holocaust, and for good reason.

[ReRe]

61. The "just following orders"

... defense is the corporate mindset. What Snowden or Ellsberg, or Drake, or any whistle blower did is akin to "Civic Duty." Young whipper-snappers don't know what "Civic Duty" means. All they know is "Me-Me-Me."

[Romulus Quirinus]

31. I see you read a David Brooks column

I hope you didn't pay money for that.

[HangOnKids]

34. Bam! Love It

Welcome back to DU! We need more like you!

[ReRe]

62. Really!

Brooks' editorial was incomprehensible to me. I will never know why the NYTimes let that go to print.

[tomp]

60. wow, you think your vote can influence change in govt.

how quaint.

[JDPriestly]

15. As long as this and similar programs are in place, our "democracy" or

"republic" whatever you want to call it, is a sham.

"We make the East German Stasi state look like the Boy Scouts."

Of course these nasty spies can deny that they are spying on Americans within the United States. Why?

Because they outsource that part of their surveillance to allied countries.

They circumvent the legal restrictions on them. They were too cowardly to tell the American people what they wanted to do.

The whole program needs to be outlawed. And the laws need to be enforced. No surveillance of electronic communications without a warrant obtained based on probably cause. And the warrants should be made public within three months of their issuance or never renewed. We have a right to know if our e-mails and phone call registers are in the hands of the government. We have a right to know if the government or some private contractor is listening into what goes on in our house through our security system.

[L0oniX]

16. Too late. Democracy in this country is an illusion.

[DeSwiss]

43. ''Those with eyes to see, will see.'' n/t

[Enthusiast]

57. A smart guy had something to say about that.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

Frank Zappa

[AAO]

67. Another smart man

"The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions."

--George Carlin

[L0oniX]

72. I'm saving that one.

[marmar]

24. k/r

[cantbeserious]

26. + Infinity - The American Democracy And Constitution Has Clearly Died

eom

[Octafish]

27. What is freedom worth if the terrorists win it?

Occupy Mind Street.

[DeSwiss]

42. Not a damned thing if the American terrorists win it. :-|

[nashville_brook]

32. k and r

[Doctor_J]

35. that ship sailed long ago

Our democracy has been dead for years. The only remaining question is whether we will become a fully fascist state

[Major Hogwash]

47. There is no hope, we're all going to die anyway.

What a defeatist attitude you have there.

[randome]

37. Your email providers keep backups of your data.

Work at a corporation? They keep backups.

Guess what? Corporations don't need a warrant to go through your emails.

All the NSA does is keep another copy that cannot be accessed without a warrant.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[NorthCarolina]

39. So, if your hard drive crashes

you can get a complete backup from NSA? Hmmmm....that's a bonus!

[Fuddnik]

40. Don't say that!

They'll figure out a way to charge us for it, contract it out to Mallwart, and put a lot of small businesses out of work!

[Major Hogwash]

48. They don't keep it for very long.

6-12 months, tops.

[DeSwiss]

41. Been sayin' it.

K&R

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. K&R!

[felix_numinous]

50. K&R

[WCGreen]

51. Yea but East Germany didn't have cable TV to placate the masses....

That fast food and easy travel pretty much makes most people say what are you talking about all these conspiracies. I can watch porn and football and get pizza delivered within 20 minutes...

[Enthusiast]

58. Is this a great country or what?

[im1013]

52. Stand with Snowden

[link:https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?bQkQvbb&v=25872|

[Enthusiast]

53. Let me count the ways they have undermined democracy.

"Well, we used to have a mechanism. It was called the press."

[ReRe]

63. Thanks for making an OP with Hedges's words...

K&R

I was listening Tuesday AM when he was on DemocracyNow. I just hope everyone clicked on the link and read the rest of the transcript and/or watched the video clip of it. They should rename the NSA... just call it the CSA.... Corporate Security Agency.

[xchrom]

65. du rec.