So what do you think the NSA are doing with the multiple call segments/copies

[snooper2]

Since we are now working under the assumption that they record and save every single call in the World, I wonder how they deal with the duplicate call legs...

Let's say a call stays VoIP G.711 all the way from your Comcast service to a nefarious character in Chad. The have to have the "taps" everywhere on just about every SONET path to get everything, so the packets moving from point A to point B might hit a NSA tap 5, 6, 10 times!

Here's just Level 3 network alone-
http://cdn1.cust.footprint.net/prod/App_Data/Replicated/MediaFiles/1/4/7/%7B1477C064-9C6C-4FE7-8C00-46D87AB516B9%7Dlevel3_laminated_map_005.pdf


The call will more than likely go through a couple back-to-back user agents so the SIP session ID is going to change. (That's the little identifier we use to know we are looking at the right call example) Since you have 5-10 recordings of the same call, I guess the software will have to use originating and terminating TN and based on the timestamp in the actually SIP session. But that timestamp is going to off by a few milliseconds so how do you account for that? Give the code a 10ms time gap to account for the difference, 100ms?

They must be some smart motherfuckers because I know some vendors who haven't figured out this problem yet. (network monitoring/health tools)


Maybe they are building that Rhode Island size building because they just save all 8 copies of the same call. Talk about the government being wasteful

[snooper2]

1. Man nobody has an answer

This must be the missing data on Snow's other slides

[snooper2]

2. I was hoping Snowden would reply but I guess he can't get the wi-fi going

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Foolish waste of Internet space.

Serious.

You laugh this up..I am not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023013492

[snooper2]

4. collecting CDR means nothing to me, they can have them all..

That's a whole different thing from "I can tap anyone's phone at any time Mr. Bullshit Snowden"

I've got an Excel Spreadsheet just put together from one customer with 6000 call attempts (failed inbound) over a two hour period to show how we are getting 404 back from their IP PBX. It's a 17M file....woo hoo...

People don't understand how private companies have their mail servers secured within a VPN, how Cloud services work, how many class 4 switches there are in the country. Shit, Verizon has around 9K Nortel switches alone.



So when I keep reading (They got all me data!) I can't help but double facepalm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Well, they admitted to it

A few times, with other leakers and whistleblowers

[snooper2]

6. Conflating the phone records with (The is watching all me mail and listening to me phone calls)

Is the part nobody wants to address...

I've posted mulitple replies and OP on the absolute idiocy of that and not one person addresses the technical challenges.



It's like nobody on DU has ever spliced a piece of fiber before. Shit, wonder how many people have even seen a piece of fiber LOL


Then we get into things like DWDM, I guess the NSA has thousands of Infinera nodes they secretly snuck into every single carrier hotel in the middle of the night

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. You know, I can't do anything

You are convinced they are doing nothing wrong, I know we live in a dictablanda. Inverted totalitarian state, whatever you want to call it. And empires have continuity of policy, even spying on citizens. Our input is neither wanted or desired by these same elites...D or R it matters little.

Have a good day.

Keep living in that fantasy. I am not conflating a thing...it is what it is...go ahead, take the the blue pill.

[snooper2]

8. LOL, I actually deal with CALEA so I know how the whole process works

From Quantico to our dude that has the security clearance to receive the warrants. I guess I'm one of the evil ones

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I guess I will take Clapper, who admitted this

Or a general in charge of NSA on this.

It's happening. And you should not be reading any of this...especially my article...it contains classified information (leaked by Snowden). It includes not just a quote from the production order, but a gasp....link to the actual order.

Save yourself.

[snooper2]

20. I read the entire Verizon order...I not sure of the legality of it or not- Supremes will decide

I'm sure cases will be brought...


But when I see the hyperbole that "They listening to all me calls" "They can read all our email!" "They know that I posted a dead cat on Facebook"


I'm starting to understand that a lot of people really don't understand Technology. You think the NSA can read an email sent internally at Bank of America? They may have some mirror ports at some of the peering centers, but thinking that every fucking packet sent across every network in the World is being stored in their database being disingenuous. Even thinking a wireless call from Sprint to T-Mobile can be instantly tapped is just foolish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I am starting to think

If a democrat does it it's ok...we will only scream if a republican does it.

It's part of the pressure release valve built into the dictablanda. It really does not matter, the empire will do what the empire will do, and input from us? It is not needed or desired. But if the proles get out of hand (see Occupy for some evidence of this) then we will throw the tools on ya.

So you keep telling yourself they can't do it. I will wait after President Cruz uses these tools against Americans...oh and really no POTUS can get rid of the tools of empire...but the screaming will start promptly.

[snooper2]

27. See my post #25 below

Then start to think of where these "tools" actually reside-

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Blue pill enjoy

Have a good day.

Horses and water...and sensible woodchucks...come to mind

[snooper2]

29. SHIT!

Facebook execs ate the little blue pill


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023019972#post16

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. And your point

Whatever. Nothing to see here...

[pnwmom]

9. But it's not happening. The PRISM program only applies to specific targets

outside the US.

The program connected to Verizon only collects "metadata" i.e., phone numbers and time of call.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Go back to sleep

Since we had an FBI agent basically say how data can be reconstructed.

On CNN no less...he was in a position to know.

Only good side, trying to find all by taking a sip from the Mississipi, at full flood mind you.

[pnwmom]

13. You can't apply a wiretap to a phone RETROACTIVELY

no matter what you think you heard a FBI agent say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You are thinking a physical tap

They are not. See, that's part of the problem. We are talking digital, who's bits and packets can indeed be rebuilt. It's not easy, but it's done.

Go back to sleep

[pnwmom]

17. And the program only allows the "rebuilding" or other investigation if a warrant is obtained

after probable cause is shown to a judge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. We should not be drinking from the Mississippi

And it is a warrantless tap...ok, they got production orders on the Mississippi. This is the makings of a police state.

Unlike you, I don't care if Truman started this, technically correct...and has been going on for over fifty years...turned inwards is a violation, and I m sure frank church is doing flips in his grave. Hell 2000 era Conyers asked the right questions about carnivore, but 2013 Conyers claims to know nothing on any of this.

Serious, go back to sleep...we know you took the blue pill.

[booley]

33. how do we know that again?

because it's secret evidence to a secret court making a secret ruling that no one can check up on or appeal because it's secret.

Governments will always say what they did was justified, whether that's true or not.

[reformist2]

12. You can use all the jargon you want, we're not impressed.

[Whisp]

14. Do they record and save every single call?

You mean they could have my chat with my mom in law about how my tomatoes are doing right on their shelves?

I was under the impression they have the metadata only - which includes phone numbers and times and no content.

When they need that content on particular persons is when a warrant or court order is necessary,

then it is given to the company (google, verizon, etc., I think there are 6 biggies).

The companies lawyers look it over for approval (or disapproval but I don't think that happens very often).

Once the legal parts have been taken care of, the specific files requested are copied from the Main Server and placed on a separate and secure one for the NSA to access and grab. The NSA does not see all of Google or Verizons info. They only get shown what they requested.

•Did I miss something and that all calls are stored, in full content - numbers, actual convo, etc., ? It seems eerything goes haywire mainly because of Greenwald's incorrect usage of 'direct access'. He was wrong, but the story lives on.

[snooper2]

22. I was taking my sarcasm to a new level

And TRYING to get somebody here to explain just ONE of the little technical difficulties in "they recordin' all me calls ma!"

[Whisp]

24. okay, if Verizon has all their meta on file.

and NSA asks for access on Tomato Mama. (not meant to you directly, just thinking out loud to make some sense of it to myself)

does the NSA then 'expand' that meta into real convos and not just phone numbers and times (this would mean that they do have full conversations from calls on file, no?) or does Verizon only have the meta and NSA has the tools to expand it (the recordin' all me calls ma!)

oiy, mama I need an Advil.

[snooper2]

25. When you pick up the phone and make a call

Signaling is done between the switch hosting your telephone number and whatever the destination is.

If it's TDM more than likely it's going out SS7, in the VoIP (voice-over-IP) we use SIP. Some edge devices use another VoIP protocol MGCP but it wasn't widely adopted as a technology.

So at a high level, your switch "knows" based on the rate center you are in and based on the rate center you are calling into how to route the call. It may stay on-net (Verizon customer calling Verizon), or it may go off-net (Verizon customer calling BellSouth)

If it goes off-net, your carrier will have either VoIP based least cost routing to other carriers based on current LD charges, or it could go to a local Class4 Tandem where local exchange carriers and LD providers "meet".

There are lots of other routing options but we'll keep it simple-

Let's say that the person you called didn't answer the phone. The switch you are hosted on cuts what is called an Attempt record. This shows that you attempted to make a call, and shows the reponse code on why the called party didn't answer. Could be the phone number is disconnected all the way to a transport issue.

Let's say the person you called did answer the phone, then the switch cuts what is called a Stop record. This is the "Meta" data that everyone is freaking their shit over. It has details such as originating TN, terminating TN, BTN, duration.

Actually, here's an example of all the fields contained full call detail record, Verizon may just be providing a summary


GATEWAY ACCT_ID_3 START_TIME_SYS_TICKS_4 NODE_TIME_ZONE_5 START_DATE_GMT START_TIME_GMT TIME_ELAP_RESPONSE_8 TIME_ELAP_RECEIPT_9 TIME_ELAP_SERV_ESTIMATE_10 DISCONNECT_DATE DISCONNECT_TIME TIME_ELAP_CALL_TERM_COMP_13 CALL_SERVICE_DURATION CALL_DISCONNECT_REASON_15 SERVICE_DELIVERED_16 CALL_DIRECTION_17 SERVICE_PROVIDER_18 TRANSIT_NTWK_SELECTION_CODE_19 CALLING_NUMBER CALLED_NUMBER EXTRA_CALLED_ADDR_DIGITS_22 NUM_CALLED_NUM_TRANS_23 CALLED_NUM_BFR_TRANS_1_24 TRANSLATION_TYPE_1_25 CALLED_NUM_BFR_TRANS_2_26 TRANSLATION_TYPE_2_27 BILLING_NUM_28 ROUTE_TABLE_NAME RUT_ATTEMPT_NUM_30 ROUTE_SELECTED_GATEWAY_NAME EG_LOCAL_SIGNAL_IP_ADDR_32 EG_REMOTE_SIGNAL_IP_ADDR_33 ING_PSTN_TRUNK_NAME ING_PSTN_CIRCUIT_END_POINT_35 ING_IP_CIRCUIT_END_POINT_36 EG_PSTN_CIRCUIT_END_POINT_37 EG_IP_CIRCUIT_END_POINT_38 NUM_AUDIO_BYTES_SENT_39 NUM_AUDIO_PACKETS_SENT_40 NUM_AUDIO_BYTES_RECEIVE_41 NUM_AUDIO_PACKETS_RECEIVE_42 ORIG_LINE_INFO_OLIP_43 JURISDICTION_INFO_PARAM_44 CARRIER_CODE_45 CALL_GRP_ID_46 SCRIPT_LOG_DATA_47 TIME_ELAP_RECEIPT_EXIT_MSG_48 TIME_ELAP_GENERATE_EXIT_MSG_49 CALLING_PARTY_NOA_50 CALLED_PARTY_NOA_51 ING_SIGNALING_TYPE_53 EG_SIGNALING_TYPE_54 ING_FAR_END_SWITCH_TYPE_55 EG_FAR_END_SWITCH_TYPE_56 CARRIER_CD_ING_TRK_GRP_OWN_57 CARRIER_CD_EG_TRK_GRP_OWN_58 CALLING_PARTY_CATEGORY_59 DIALED_NUMBER CARRIER_SELECTION_INFO_61 CALLED_NUM_NUMBERING_PLAN_62 GENERIC_ADDR_PARAM DISCONNECT_IND_64 NUM_PACKETS_LOST_65 INTER_ARRIVAL_JITTER_TIME_66 LAST_MEASURE_LATENCY_67 EG_TRUNK_GRP_NAME_68 IN_CALLING_NUM_70 RECORD_LOAD_DATE AMA_CALL_TYPE_71 MSG_BILLING_IND_MBI_72 ORIG_LATA_73 RUT_INDEX_USED_74 CALLING_PARTY_RESTRICTION_75 IN_ISUP_CHARGE_NUM_76 IN_ISUP_CHARGE_NUM_NOA_77 DIALED_NUM_NOA_78 ING_CODEC_TYPE_79 EG_CODEC_TYPE_80 RTP_PACKETIZATION_TIME_81 CALL_ID_82 ORIG_ECHO_CANCEL_83 TERM_ECHO_CANCEL_84 CHARGE_FLAG_85 AMA_SERV_LOGIC_ID_86 AMA_BAF_MODULE_87 AMA_SET_HEX_AB_IND_88 SERV_FEATURE_ID_89 FE_PARAMETER_90 SATELLITE_IND_91 PSX_BILLING_INFO_92 ORIG_TDM_TRUNK_GRP_TYPE_93 TERM_TDM_TRUNK_GRP_TYPE_94 ING_TRUNK_MEM_NUM_95 EG_TRUNK_GRP_ID_96 EG_SWITCH_ID_97 POLICY_RESPONSE_CALL_TYPE_102 OUT_RUT_ID_103 OUT_MSG_ID_104 IN_RUT_ID_105 CALLING_NAME_106 CALLING_NAME_TYPE_107 IN_CALLING_PARTY_NUM_PLAN_108 OUT_CALLING_PARTY_NUM_PLAN_109 CALLING_PARTY_BUSS_GRP_ID_110 CALLED_PARTY_BUSS_GRP_ID_111 CALLING_PARTY_PUB_DIR_NUM_112 ELAP_TIME_SET_RCP_RUT_ATT_113 BILLING_NUM_NOA_114 IN_CALLING_NUM_NOA_115 EG_TRUNK_MEM_NUM_116 SELECTED_RUT_TYPE_117 ING_PROTO_VAR_SPECF_DATA_52 EG_PROTO_VAR_SPECF_DATE_69 TELCORD_LONG_DUR_REC_TYPE_118 TIME_ELAP_PREVI_REC_119 CUMUL_RUT_INDEX_120 CALL_DIS_RSON_TRANS_TO_ING_121 CALL_DIS_RSON_TRANS_TO_EG_122 ISDN_PRI_CALL_PTY_SUB_ADDR_123 OUT_TRUNK_GRP_NUM_IN_EXM_124 ING_LOCAL_SIGNAL_IP_ADDR_125 ING_REMOTE_SIGNAL_IP_ADDR_126 REC_SEQ_NUM_127 TRANSMI_MEDIUM_REQUI_TMR_128 INFO_TRANSF_RATE_ITR_129 USER_SERV_INFO_USI_LAYER_1_130 UNREC_RAW_ISUP_CALL_PTY_CT_131 SS7_RLS_TNK_RLT_FETUR_DATA_132 TWO_B_CHAN_TRAN_FETUR_DATE_133 CALLING_PARTY_BUSS_UNIT_134 CALLED_PARTY_BUSS_UNIT_135 REDIRECT_FEAT_DATA_136 IG_RLT_FEAT_DATA_137 INDEX_138 CONGESTION_LEVEL_139 PROCESSING_TIME_140 SCRIPT_NAME_141 IG_EXTERNAL_ACCOUNTING_142 EG_EXTERNAL_ACCOUNTING_143 EG_RTP_PACKET_TIME_144 EG_NUM_AUDIO_BYTES_SENT_145 EG_NUM_AUDIO_PACKS_SENT_146 EG_NUM_AUDIO_BYTES_RECV_147 EG_NUM_AUDIO_PACKS_RECV_148 EG_NUM_PACKETS_LOST_149 EG_INTARRIVAL_PACK_JITTER_150 EG_LAST_MEAS_LATENCY_151 IG_MAX_PACKET_OUTAGE_152 EG_MAX_PACKET_OUTAGE_153 IG_PACK_PLAYOUT_BUF_QUAL_154 EG_PACK_PLAYOUT_BUF_QUAL_155 CALL_SUPERVISION_TYPE_156 IG_SIP_RR_FEAT_SPECIF_DATA_157 EG_SIP_RR_FEAT_SPECIF_DATA_158 NET_TRANS_FEAT_SPECIF_DATA_159 CALL_CONDITION_160 TOLL_INDICATOR_161 GENERIC_NUMBER_NUMBER_162 GENERIC_NUM_PRES_RESTR_IND_163 GENERIC_NUM_NUM_PLAN_164 GENERIC_NUM_NOA_165 GENERIC_NUM_TYPE_166 ORIG_TRUNK_TYPE_167 TERM_TRUNK_TYPE_168 REMOTE_BILL_IND_169 VPN_CALL_PRIVATE_PRES_NUM_170 VPN_CALL_PUBLIC_PRES_NUM_171 EXT_FURNISH_CHARGING_INFO_172 IG_POLICING_DISCARDS_173 EG_POLICING_DISCARDS_174 ANNOUNCEMENT_ID_175 SOURCE_INFORMATION_176 NETWORK_ID_177 PARTITION_ID_178 NCOS_179 IG_SRTP_180 EG_SRTP_181 ISDN_ACCESS_IND_FROM_FCI_182 CALL_DISCONNECT_LOCATION_183 CALL_DISC_LOC_TRANS_TO_IG_184 CALL_DISC_LOC_TRANS_TO_EG_185 NETWORK_CALL_REF_CALL_ID_186 NET_CALL_REF_SIG_PT_CODE_187 IG_ISUP_MIME_PROTOCOL_VAR_188 EG_ISUP_MIME_PROTOCOL_VAR_189 MODEM_TONE_TYPE_190 MODEM_TONE_SIGNAL_LEVEL_191 VIDEO_CODEC_DATA_192 VIDEO_CODEC_STATS_193 CUSTOMER_194 OVERLAP_ROUTE_REQS_197
CALL_SETUP_DELAY_198 OVERLOAD_STATUS_199


That's it, thats the meta data. Just the information about a call that was tried or a call that was completed- It gets a lot more complicated when you get into transfers, forwards, conference calls.

Every phone call ever made has multiple call detail records associated with it because each switch in the path "cuts" one. That's pretty important so we can fix shit when it breaks.



NOW- To get the audio (conversation)

A human has to put a optical splitter on a SONET facility or setup what's called a mirror port ahead of time to capture the actual audio. To do that you have to know the route(path) a call will take through the network. Due to the sheer volume of traffic, 100's of thousands of facilities and sheer complexity of the PSTN it's just not possible that the NSA can do that. They probably have select taps at critical points, maybe all traffic coming into Verizon from Sudan, but that's it.

Basically, when Snowden said he can "listen to anyones call at any time" he is full of shit-

[Whisp]

26. well thank you for taking the time to explain. I think I get it now.

When NSA gets the meta data it is for Future surveillance, not for past calls.

Once they have a 'suspect', they get info on who that person was calling when they get the meta, THEN they tap him for the convo.

[stevenleser]

31. Right, but help me understand this part of the tech. At some point, Verizon and other carriers

convert what you just noted as a full call record into what we all see on our detailed bills. Couldn't they just provide the NSA that data?

[snooper2]

32. yes, 180 of those fields mean nothing to most people

including the NSA...

They wouldn't care what Verizon's Egress switch was or the name of the trunk group or what the egress packet count was. Basically it's who-called-who and how long the call lasted. Same thing for billing, if you want to dispute LD charges for a 4 hour call to Somalia you'll see that on your bill. Plus bills would look ridiculous with every single paramater contained in a CDR

[marions ghost]

35. I guess you have access to proof of what you

think is happening? You know how it works you say.

The metadata can reveal things that are very useful to know about you, in inquisitive hands. Never mind the content. Potential for huge abuse in this system. And it has already occurred IMO--there are enough indicators.

[Whisp]

37. my access is a keyboard

like everyone else's here.

if we needed definitive proof for everything we say here there would be 3 posts a day.

1. look at my cute puppy (with personal identification shown with puppy of who I am irl and the receipt from where I bought him)
2. Clinton is an asshole
3. don't breast feed at Olive Garden while eating corn flakes

[marions ghost]

38. OK so you lay out how you think it's supposed to work

and what proof do we have that it works that way?

Just asking how you come to these conclusions and present them as certainty. We have no proof.

[Whisp]

39. I am just trying to figure all this mish mash out

and putting it down in words to sort it out for myself.

I have no proof of what I had for fricken lunch yesterday.

What is your problem?

[marions ghost]

40. So a discussion is where people ask questions

of people who seem to know what they're talking about. But if that offends you then maybe you should put "I have made my statement--please, NO questions" in your sig line.

Just asking politely how you come to your conclusions but I see you consider it some sort of invasion of privacy.

So I'll leave you to your own cranky self. g'day

[Whisp]

41. my conclusions, which could change any time with more info..

are a result of the bollocks ridden 'direct access' bullshit that has taken hold.

[marions ghost]

42. I havent seen much

bollocks ridden direct access BS around here. You must be talking about out there on the internets somewhere.

Yes, we all need more information. On that we can agree.

[Whisp]

43. I meant the walkback from Greenwald's original 'direct access' that was taken as truth

and now we are finding maybe that is not the truth. More than a maybe it appears.

Greenwald either didn't know what he was talking about (and Snowden) or they lied for effect. Only two choices and I am inclined to believe the second than this blanket 'direct access' to everything (full recorded calls, etc., instead of metadata) from the big 6 - Google, FB, verizon and the rest.

If we can't start talking about this with basic information that isn't spin then there is no there there. But I guess that is the whole purpose, we should be used to that by now.

[flamingdem]

16. If they could do this we'd have the conversations

between the Boston Bombers and Tamerlane and his wife.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Speaking of that one

It's so good that even when they had the shiny needle pointed to them, twice no less, they still managed to miss the needle.

As to the conversations, unless they intend to go after the wife in open court, you will never know what they have. I am betting on no court case involving the wife.

[marions ghost]

36. We have only what they are telling us

about the bomber case. They may even have heard the conversations but that would be embarrassing to admit, wouldn't it? Not much incentive to tell us, especially since we're not supposed to know about that.

The problem is that insiders in a corrupt system are asking us to trust it.

[sibelian]

19. Feeling good about themselves.

How cool is it to get the better of people? They love themselves.

[bobduca]

34. So your screenname is your job, neat

[snooper2]

44. Kick again, since I never got an answer from all the "smart" folks here

Come on, think about the question!

Snowy probably has an answer- it's a series of tubes LOL